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Any recommendations for tube-type SSB transceivers?
I am looking for recommendations on the best all-tube 80-10 SSB/CW transceiver to buy. I would prefer:that it be smaller rather than larger, and that it have a built-in power supply. I realize that this is likely to be a contradiction, so I'd prefer the built-in power supply over the small size as this is going to be set up in a portable installation (motorhome) and the fewer separate boxes I need to mess with, the better.. The only absolute requirement is that it be all tubes, no transistorized VFOs or any such thing, although solid state rectifiers in the power supply are OK. Thanks... Rick WA1RKT |
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 21:34:32 GMT, "Chas" wrote:
Built-in supply?? If memory serves me right, there are very few all tube transceivers with a built-in supply. The only ones would be the SBE-34(dog) & the Swan 260 & 270 series(slightly better choice), Good evening, Chuck. Yeah, I knew it was a long shot. ;-) Actually I had an SBE34 many, MANY years ago and it didn't seem like it was that bad a rig. I also had a Swan ... don't remember which one .... and you're right, it was better. KWM-2s had a strap on 12 volt power supply, Actually I don't need a 12-volt supply; I plan to use the rig in my motorhome running either off of a gas generator or off of an inverter connected to the house battery. You may be better off with any of the Yaesu FT-101 series. But, aren't the FT-101's partly or mostly solid state, with tube finals? I'm looking for something that's tube EVERYTHING, with the possible exception of diode rectifiers in the power supply ... don't even want a transistorized VFO. 73 Rick WA1RKT |
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"Chas" ) writes:
Built-in supply?? If memory serves me right, there are very few all tube transceivers with a built-in supply. The only ones would be the SBE-34(dog) & the Swan 260 & 270 series(slightly better choice), beyond that, KWM-2s had a strap on 12 volt power supply, good luck in finding the PM-2 much less affording both it and a good KWM-2, cost: around $1000 or more. You may be better off with any of the Yaesu FT-101 series. More stable than the Swans & better over all. Good luck! Chuck WG2A Wait a minute, wasn't the SBE-34 partially solid state? I'm sure I'm not just getting that from the carbon copy someone built up and wrote about in QST; I can picture an article by W2EEY with a bunch of modifications which indicated it was a mostly solid state rig (ie all but the driver and final). That might account for your comment about it being a dog. And whether there was a strap on 12v supply for the KWM-2, there was definitely a 117VAC strap on for it. I once had the use of one, for something else, and I sure wasn't running it mobile. The intent of that strap on was if you were running portable, like all those DXpeditions, and wanted a more compact package. It and the KWM-2 would fit into the Collins suitcase, and there you'd go. Micahel VE2BVW wrote in message ... I am looking for recommendations on the best all-tube 80-10 SSB/CW transceiver to buy. I would prefer:that it be smaller rather than larger, and that it have a built-in power supply. I realize that this is likely to be a contradiction, so I'd prefer the built-in power supply over the small size as this is going to be set up in a portable installation (motorhome) and the fewer separate boxes I need to mess with, the better.. The only absolute requirement is that it be all tubes, no transistorized VFOs or any such thing, although solid state rectifiers in the power supply are OK. Thanks... Rick WA1RKT |
Your right, the SBE was solid state except for the driver and finals.
My mistake(big ooops, I owned one too!), so I guess his only option is a Swan 260 or 270. Chuck WG2A "Michael Black" wrote in message ... "Chas" ) writes: Built-in supply?? If memory serves me right, there are very few all tube transceivers with a built-in supply. The only ones would be the SBE-34(dog) & the Swan 260 & 270 series(slightly better choice), beyond that, KWM-2s had a strap on 12 volt power supply, good luck in finding the PM-2 much less affording both it and a good KWM-2, cost: around $1000 or more. You may be better off with any of the Yaesu FT-101 series. More stable than the Swans & better over all. Good luck! Chuck WG2A Wait a minute, wasn't the SBE-34 partially solid state? I'm sure I'm not just getting that from the carbon copy someone built up and wrote about in QST; I can picture an article by W2EEY with a bunch of modifications which indicated it was a mostly solid state rig (ie all but the driver and final). That might account for your comment about it being a dog. And whether there was a strap on 12v supply for the KWM-2, there was definitely a 117VAC strap on for it. I once had the use of one, for something else, and I sure wasn't running it mobile. The intent of that strap on was if you were running portable, like all those DXpeditions, and wanted a more compact package. It and the KWM-2 would fit into the Collins suitcase, and there you'd go. Micahel VE2BVW wrote in message ... I am looking for recommendations on the best all-tube 80-10 SSB/CW transceiver to buy. I would prefer:that it be smaller rather than larger, and that it have a built-in power supply. I realize that this is likely to be a contradiction, so I'd prefer the built-in power supply over the small size as this is going to be set up in a portable installation (motorhome) and the fewer separate boxes I need to mess with, the better.. The only absolute requirement is that it be all tubes, no transistorized VFOs or any such thing, although solid state rectifiers in the power supply are OK. Thanks... Rick WA1RKT |
Hi Rick! The SBEs were solid state too(driver & finals were tube), so
if your critera was an internal power supply & all tube, the Swan is your only choice (as far as my memory goes). I recommended the Yaesus only because of the power supply issue and that they are better than the Swans. the KWM-2 is the best bet for quality, plus with the PM-2, the power supply and radio are one piece, otherwise you'll have to build an AC supply or buy the Collins one, though many people put another connector on a Heath HP-23 and use them (much cheaper). Chuck WG2A P.S. Swan 260 & 270s had a bad design in the dial shaft. There was usually some wear between the shaft and the bushing (?) causing them to be a real pain to tune in SSB signals. Go with the KWM-2. wrote in message ... On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 21:34:32 GMT, "Chas" wrote: Built-in supply?? If memory serves me right, there are very few all tube transceivers with a built-in supply. The only ones would be the SBE-34(dog) & the Swan 260 & 270 series(slightly better choice), Good evening, Chuck. Yeah, I knew it was a long shot. ;-) Actually I had an SBE34 many, MANY years ago and it didn't seem like it was that bad a rig. I also had a Swan ... don't remember which one ... and you're right, it was better. KWM-2s had a strap on 12 volt power supply, Actually I don't need a 12-volt supply; I plan to use the rig in my motorhome running either off of a gas generator or off of an inverter connected to the house battery. You may be better off with any of the Yaesu FT-101 series. But, aren't the FT-101's partly or mostly solid state, with tube finals? I'm looking for something that's tube EVERYTHING, with the possible exception of diode rectifiers in the power supply ... don't even want a transistorized VFO. 73 Rick WA1RKT |
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On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 02:44:05 GMT, "Chas" wrote:
Hi Rick! The SBEs were solid state too(driver & finals were tube), so if your critera was an internal power supply & all tube, the Swan is your only choice (as far as my memory goes). Thanks, Chuck. The internal power supply and/or the small size are only preferences, that I can live without. The only hard requirement is the all-tube design. Go with the KWM-2. Yeah, I'm beginning to reach that conclusion. I've been checking a few prices on eBay and qrz.com and they certainly are proud of 'em ... from $300-$400 for a beater that needs a lot of work to $1200-$1500 for a -2A that is claimed to be in perfect condition. Are things like tubes and shop manuals more or less readily available? Guess it's time to start haunting the 75-meter swap nets and the flea markets. Hoss Traders is coming up here in New Hampshire early next month, I think. Any other big, well-known and well-attended flea markets coming up anywhere in the Northeast or mid-Atlantic states, west to about Ohio? Rick WA1RKT |
I don't know if the NCX-5
was solid state but it was from the tube era. Both the NCX-5 and -3 use a separate AC power supply, and the original poster wants it all in one box. Nice rigs though. --Mike K. Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
I think I mentioned elsewhere in these discussions that the main reason I'm looking for an all-tube SSB/CW transceiver is for when (not "if", unfortunately) terrorists manage to smuggle a nuclear weapon into this country and set it off. (Hell, no, I'm not paranoid, which one of my enemies told you that?) :-( I'm looking for something that has a reasonable chance of surviving the resulting EMP, and that means tube gear. Now, someone else here said something about the KWM-2 having germanium diodes in the balance modulator. Those aren't likely to survive any meaningful EMP (they can't even survive a little heat from a soldering iron, for Pete's sake) so that seems to let the KWM-2 out of the running. Of the other tube rigs mentioned ... Swan 260/270/350/500, Heath SB100/101 and HW-100 (also HW-101?), Hallicrafters SR-150, NCX-5, etc. .... how many of them have germanium diodes here and there that are likely to get smoked? What other considerations are there that would rule one of these other rigs in or out? Rick WA1RKT |
snip What other considerations are there that would
rule one of these other rigs in or out? Rick WA1RKT ....probably the fact that if you are close enough to a nuclear blast which wipes out your gear due to EMP, the least of your worries will be whether or not your radio works. Just a thought... Barry - N4BUQ |
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The EMP problem is very well studied, and very classified. You
won't find much detailed information. The US has spent billions of dollars studying it. The amount of money spent should act as an indicator of the danger of the effect. EMP is far worse than lightning! This is because the risetime of EMP is in the sub pico second region. Even a dead short circuit looks like an inductor at these frequencies. Now, on the bright side, all of the IC manufacturers have been hardening their ICs for electro static and EMP effects for at least the last 20 years. They know the score, and don't want their stuff fizzling with EMP. EMP hardened pads cost them nothing to include. As to tube gear surviving EMP, every commercial tube rig made in the '60s and 70s had some solidstate in it. The HW101 had a solid state LTO, the HW100 was tube, with a varactor to shift the vFO for usb/lsb. Same with the SB100/101. SB102 had a ss LTO. Diodes were used here and there to aid in T/R switching.... If spamsink is really interested in having a rig that will survive EMP he should look at some of the US military solid state gear. It is all hardened. Or, on a cheaper note, put an ICOM in a copper can. -Chuck, WA3UQV ckh wrote: On Sun, 7 Sep 3903 14:51:24, wrote: I think I mentioned elsewhere in these discussions that the main reason I'm looking for an all-tube SSB/CW transceiver is for when (not "if", unfortunately) terrorists manage to smuggle a nuclear weapon into this country and set it off. (Hell, no, I'm not paranoid, which one of my enemies told you that?) :-( |
On 7 Sep 2003 20:22:34 GMT, Too Much SPAM (ckh) wrote:
Or it could mean that you keep a backup, inexpensive solid state rig in a metal box. It could be anything, an old Tentec, an IC-701, anything will work. My so-far-limited research indicates that probably wouldn't be good enough. You'd have to have more than just a thin metal box, maybe a THICK metal box, or lead, or something, and perhaps there'd be grounding considerations. If you planned for it, you could have a spare set of diodes in the impervious metal box and just sub them in when the balloon goes up. True, I thought of that, and it's one of the options. Anyway, I'm guessing that the EMP risk is overstated. I would like to think so, but I don't, not really... there is a lot of information out there that seems to indicate it's a real danger. Rick WA1RKT |
"Chuck Harris" wrote in message ... The EMP problem is very well studied, and very classified. You won't find much detailed information. The US has spent billions of dollars studying it. The amount of money spent should act as an indicator of the danger of the effect. EMP is far worse than lightning! This is because the risetime of EMP is in the sub pico second region. Even a dead short circuit looks like an inductor at these frequencies. Now, on the bright side, all of the IC manufacturers have been hardening their ICs for electro static and EMP effects for at least the last 20 years. They know the score, and don't want their stuff fizzling with EMP. EMP hardened pads cost them nothing to include. As to tube gear surviving EMP, every commercial tube rig made in the '60s and 70s had some solidstate in it. The HW101 had a solid state LTO, the HW100 was tube, with a varactor to shift the vFO for usb/lsb. Same with the SB100/101. SB102 had a ss LTO. Diodes were used here and there to aid in T/R switching.... If spamsink is really interested in having a rig that will survive EMP he should look at some of the US military solid state gear. It is all hardened. Or, on a cheaper note, put an ICOM in a copper can. -Chuck, WA3UQV One of the best RF shielded structures is available for a couple of dollars at your local hardware store. Just buy a couple of 1 gallon steel paint cans. Drop in your survival radio and a battery, and tap the top back on. (A true survivalist would also can a good revolver and a couple of boxes of ammo; not for NEMP protection, just for convenience.) The mechanical wiping interference fit of the lid makes for an excellent RF shield. Watch out for some cans with an internal plastic film; either get the metal plated cans, or buff off the plastic film from the can and lid seal faces. The scenario for NEMP is 50,000 volts per meter electric field strength at the Earth's surface. If you want to protect your equipment from this threat, then you have to treat every interface to your rig. That means shielding the case and filtering / limiting the power cable, any computer I/O lines, any external meters or speakers, and the antenna cable. The easiest way to do all this is to put the rig, plus speakers and meters, into a very conductive box (Faraday cage). Use a powerline filter with transient limiters to bring power into the box. Use a fast-acting limiter (designed with NEMP in mind) on the coax. Provide ventilation through honeycomb or multiple small diameter holes. By now, you may have noticed that although the rig is protected, you have created a very difficult to use station. OK, just make your shielded box bigger, and climb inside. A decent home-made shielded box should easily give you 80 dB or so of shielding effectiveness, which is a 10,000x reduction, thus exposing the rig to only 5 V/M of the 50,000 V/M NEMP. Remember that you are only protected when the access door is properly closed. It won't do any good if you do everything else correct, but leave the door hanging open an inch. Finally, a note about military gear. Not all mil equipment is procured to the same performance level. Since shielding and other protection adds weight, bulk and cost, some mil equipment is built tougher than other mil equipment. An RF transponder used in a submarine has less need for NEMP hardening (the sub hull and the water provide a lot of shielding) than a composite airframe missile. OTOH, what are the odds of a missile being in-flight during a nuclear event? (Harden the launcher box, not the vehicle itself.) So, although any mil equipment is more likely to survive an NEMP than civilian stuff, some mil stuff is a lot better than other mil stuff. If you are buying surplus mil gear, consider the original mission scenario and the threats to that mission. Ed WB6WSN |
wrote in message ... On 7 Sep 2003 20:22:34 GMT, Too Much SPAM (ckh) wrote: Or it could mean that you keep a backup, inexpensive solid state rig in a metal box. It could be anything, an old Tentec, an IC-701, anything will work. My so-far-limited research indicates that probably wouldn't be good enough. You'd have to have more than just a thin metal box, maybe a THICK metal box, or lead, or something, and perhaps there'd be grounding considerations. If you planned for it, you could have a spare set of diodes in the impervious metal box and just sub them in when the balloon goes up. True, I thought of that, and it's one of the options. Anyway, I'm guessing that the EMP risk is overstated. I would like to think so, but I don't, not really... there is a lot of information out there that seems to indicate it's a real danger. Rick WA1RKT The problem with relying on the rig's metal case for shielding is that it's not the metal thickness, so much as the gaps in the metal, that kill the shielding effectiveness. Any reasonable metal (steel, aluminum, copper) in any thickness reasonably needed to act as a chassis and cabinet, will give you tremendous shielding effectiveness. Unfortunately, once you have welded your rig into a steel tank, it's a bit hard to use. The joints on a commercial rig only need to hold the pieces together if you vigorously shake the box. You can only achieve decent shielding if you carefully bond every joint, gasket every flange, design every cover and access panel with an RF gasket and control every interface port (including meter faces, air vents, handles, control shafts, plastic bezels and display panels). If you ever tried to harden a commercial rig, you will come up against so many shielding violations that you will usually be better off to move the protection perimeter out from the rig case, and build a shielded workstation or enclosure. Ed WB6WSN |
Rick,
Well thought out, but I think my response was meant more than just the results if you are near enough to the event to cause you direct harm. If such an event occurred and a majority of the solid-state devices are cooked, will your immediate concenrs be a radio? Who are you going to talk to or listen to? It seems the resulting chaos from such a scenario would make the fact of whether or not you have a working short-wave radio not very important. Again, just some thoughts... Barry - N4BUQ ...probably the fact that if you are close enough to a nuclear blast which wipes out your gear due to EMP, the least of your worries will be whether or not your radio works. Good afternoon, Barry. From the best my limited knowledge and aptitude on the topic has been able to determine over the last couple of weeks of research, that's probably not entirely accurate. A lightweight nuclear blast high up in the atmosphere can wipe out equipment for hundreds to a thousand miles around. Lower-altitude blasts have a lesser range of damage, but my guess (and it's only a guess) is that a 50-kiloton device on the observation deck of the Empire State building would result in EMP damage far outside of the range of heat and blast destruction. If someone set off such a device at the top of the Prudential Center or John Hancock Tower in Boston, chances are pretty good that my computers, telephone, cell phone, modern solid-state ham gear, not to mention the electrical power, would all be pretty well destroyed here in southern New Hampshire, but we probably wouldn't get any blast or heat damage to speak of. There would be time to load my old tube gear (which I don't have yet) into my motorhome and get outta Dodge, assuming the engine-control computer in my motorhome didn't get smoked (which it probably would, though I don't know how much of that type of high-techie stuff they put in Toyotas in 1990 so maybe not...). Rick WA1RKT |
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Hi Mike,
If you presume that the EMP problem only travels down the antenna, or the power cord, then you would possibly be right about the KWM2's diode ring modulator. However, the KWM2 has virtually zip for shielding in its low level circuitry. It has a slip on cover with holes punched all over. I can easily hear its crystal HFO with the case shut. Radios like the PRC-70, PRC-47, PRC-74 are all double shielded. First the rf gasketed case comes off, then you have a chassis with rf gasketed covers over all of the interesting modules... and of course, some of the interesting modules have their own local shielding. -Chuck, WA3UQV Mike Knudsen wrote: Note that the commonly available PRC-47 SSB transceiver is considered "EMP hardened" by virtue of its tube fianl and RX tube RF amp. Those two are the only tubes in the set, the rest is sorry-state. The whole radio is in a pretty tight fitting metal box. More to the point, the diodes used in the ring modulator of a KWM-2, being many stages removed fromt he antenna or power line, are unlikely to be damaged by any pulse coming in *electrically* from the outside. The danger to such diodes (and the entire innards of a PRC-47) is from the EMP wave itself, inducing voltages and currents in every little part and wire that it travels thru. Anyone know just where the PRC-47 is rated on the "hardness" scale? --Mike K. AA1UK Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 02:44:05 GMT, "Chas" wrote: Hi Rick! The SBEs were solid state too(driver & finals were tube), so if your critera was an internal power supply & all tube, the Swan is your only choice (as far as my memory goes). Thanks, Chuck. The internal power supply and/or the small size are only preferences, that I can live without. The only hard requirement is the all-tube design. Go with the KWM-2. Yeah, I'm beginning to reach that conclusion. I've been checking a few prices on eBay and qrz.com and they certainly are proud of 'em ... from $300-$400 for a beater that needs a lot of work to $1200-$1500 for a -2A that is claimed to be in perfect condition. Are things like tubes and shop manuals more or less readily available? Guess it's time to start haunting the 75-meter swap nets and the flea markets. Hoss Traders is coming up here in New Hampshire early next month, I think. Any other big, well-known and well-attended flea markets coming up anywhere in the Northeast or mid-Atlantic states, west to about Ohio? Rick WA1RKT Nobody has even mentioned the Heathkit series. HW/SB-100/102/etc. All tube type. Dan/W4NTI |
and frankly, using nukes to create EMP would be the most "humane" and
attractive option to an opfor that I can recognize. take out all the "Bygollians" infrastructure and ability to react and defend, and watch 'em kill each other off in paranoia, wackiness, disruption of food supply due to loss of the toys, and harvest the spoils without any nasty radiation in a few months. think about it. clear out the power grid, communications, personal electronics, emergency services command and control systems... cars and trucks can't be used because the engine computers and coils are fried, the same for locomotives... easy pickings as soon as the enraged and frustrated locals kill each other off or just starve under bushes. so just why in hell would you WANT to drop one to several thousand feet above ground level and try to pulverize stuff and poison the ground? you can't use anything then, and the fallout would be brutal world-wide. Ed Price wrote: "Dick Carroll;" wrote in message ... Chuck Harris wrote: Hi Dick, EMP testing was done in the open air blasts in the Marshal Islands. EMP testing was done under the desert in the Nevada tests. EMP testing was done above ground in the US Army's facilities. It is very well understood. I wasn't clear. One's proximity to the event will mean everything, that's the uncertainty, along with the device yield. . Close enough and you will certainly have problems. No one will know how far away you have to be to avoid them. Both ground and air nuclear burst will cause an EMP. Further, the power will fall off at 1/r^^2, but the field strength decays at 1/r. Devices may fail due to induced power or voltage (for instance, a high impedance FET gate might easily fail with only a very modest induced voltage). The air burst NEMP can be optimized by placing the detonation just at the outer fringe of the Earth's atmosphere. The device is designed to direct an intense x-ray burst downward into the atmosphere. This energy interacts with the Earth's magnetic field, causing an intense EM field to propagate toward the Earth's surface. Since the optimum burst height is defined by the density of the atmosphere, there's not much you can do to increase your separation distance (short of digging a very deep hole). Back in the good old days of the USA / USSR cold war, when both sides had plenty of nukes, any serious exchange of weapons would have made diverting a few to NEMP optimization a cheap investment (considering the potential for disruption). Ed WB6WSN -- If it's a "new economy," why do they want my obsolete old money? |
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