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Nocturnal1 September 26th 03 07:25 AM

I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group,
so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times
already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from
BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess
there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit
manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for
downloading...

~Tom



"Joe" wrote in message
news.com...

Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA

ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?



Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA?
Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well
as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY
'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many
others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about.
Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't
been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because
BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the
copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!!

Joe





Nocturnal1 September 26th 03 07:25 AM

copyright infringement on eBay?
 
I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group,
so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times
already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from
BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess
there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit
manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for
downloading...

~Tom



"Joe" wrote in message
news.com...

Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA

ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?



Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA?
Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well
as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY
'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many
others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about.
Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't
been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because
BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the
copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!!

Joe





Phil Nelson September 26th 03 07:29 AM

In my experience, the holders of valid copyrights on outdated material tend
to go easy on casual swaps of copies among hobbyists. However, if it looks
like someone intends to make a living selling copies of their stuff, AND the
owner still stands to make significant income from said stuff, then they
might get lawyers involved, probably starting with a "cease and desist"
letter.

A couple of years ago, I got an email from someone at SAMS (the Photofact
people) noting that I had posted a portion of a 1950s SAMS TV schematic on
my website. This was a restoration article and the schematic snip
illustrated a specific problem that I had solved. The SAMS guy was very
nice, and only asked that I give them credit for having supplied the
schematic. This, despite the fact that SAMS is alive and well, and it
typically sells that sort of schematic for around $25 a pop. They probably
figured that the miniscule amount of free advertising for long-obsolete
schematics outweighed the hassle/expense of having some higher-paid employee
call me long distance to make the same request :-) The schematic snippet
wasn't that important to the article anyhow, so I simply deleted it from the
web article.

It's harder than you might imagine to find out who -- if anyone -- still
holds a valid copyright to old material. I have tried looking a couple of
times, and ran out of patience long before I found an answer.

It never occurred to me to look on Ebay for a schematic or manual. I have
had good luck with suppliers such as http://www.w7fg.com/ and
http://agtannenbaum.com/ and http://www.tubesandmore.com/ .

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html



Phil Nelson September 26th 03 07:29 AM

In my experience, the holders of valid copyrights on outdated material tend
to go easy on casual swaps of copies among hobbyists. However, if it looks
like someone intends to make a living selling copies of their stuff, AND the
owner still stands to make significant income from said stuff, then they
might get lawyers involved, probably starting with a "cease and desist"
letter.

A couple of years ago, I got an email from someone at SAMS (the Photofact
people) noting that I had posted a portion of a 1950s SAMS TV schematic on
my website. This was a restoration article and the schematic snip
illustrated a specific problem that I had solved. The SAMS guy was very
nice, and only asked that I give them credit for having supplied the
schematic. This, despite the fact that SAMS is alive and well, and it
typically sells that sort of schematic for around $25 a pop. They probably
figured that the miniscule amount of free advertising for long-obsolete
schematics outweighed the hassle/expense of having some higher-paid employee
call me long distance to make the same request :-) The schematic snippet
wasn't that important to the article anyhow, so I simply deleted it from the
web article.

It's harder than you might imagine to find out who -- if anyone -- still
holds a valid copyright to old material. I have tried looking a couple of
times, and ran out of patience long before I found an answer.

It never occurred to me to look on Ebay for a schematic or manual. I have
had good luck with suppliers such as http://www.w7fg.com/ and
http://agtannenbaum.com/ and http://www.tubesandmore.com/ .

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html



Phil September 26th 03 11:04 AM

There is nothing "free". Someone took the time and trouble to scan the
manuals, someone pays for the webspace, etc. Since you have the Heathkit
manuals, why don't YOU scan them and send them to BAMA for posting.
You may discover that scanning hundreds or even thousands of pages
of manuals is "work". Some people are so dense as to think they should
receive some form of payment for "work". I have sold hundreds of CD's
on eBay containing about 50 military manuals, almost all of which I scanned
myself, page by page. For a lot of the manuals, I had to buy them first,
then scan, then hope to resell and recover some of my costs. Most of the
people that bought my CD's were darn glad to get them as their only
alternative
was buying an original manual and many times the price of the CD.

BTW, you will be glad to know that one of my CD buyers has put all my
files on his web page so people like you can download them "free". The only
work he did was to do a file copy operation taking a couple of minutes
at most.

good luck, 73,
Phil
W5BVB

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this

group,
so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times
already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was

from
BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess
there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit
manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available

for
downloading...

~Tom



"Joe" wrote in message
news.com...

Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from

BAMA
ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?



Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA?
Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well
as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY
'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many
others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about.
Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't
been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because
BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the
copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!!

Joe







Phil September 26th 03 11:04 AM

There is nothing "free". Someone took the time and trouble to scan the
manuals, someone pays for the webspace, etc. Since you have the Heathkit
manuals, why don't YOU scan them and send them to BAMA for posting.
You may discover that scanning hundreds or even thousands of pages
of manuals is "work". Some people are so dense as to think they should
receive some form of payment for "work". I have sold hundreds of CD's
on eBay containing about 50 military manuals, almost all of which I scanned
myself, page by page. For a lot of the manuals, I had to buy them first,
then scan, then hope to resell and recover some of my costs. Most of the
people that bought my CD's were darn glad to get them as their only
alternative
was buying an original manual and many times the price of the CD.

BTW, you will be glad to know that one of my CD buyers has put all my
files on his web page so people like you can download them "free". The only
work he did was to do a file copy operation taking a couple of minutes
at most.

good luck, 73,
Phil
W5BVB

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this

group,
so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times
already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was

from
BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess
there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit
manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available

for
downloading...

~Tom



"Joe" wrote in message
news.com...

Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from

BAMA
ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?



Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA?
Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well
as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY
'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many
others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about.
Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't
been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because
BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the
copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!!

Joe







Dale Parfitt September 26th 03 02:06 PM



Nocturnal1 wrote:

I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group,
so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times
already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from
BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess
there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit
manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for
downloading...

~Tom
Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were
unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature.


Dale W4OP


Dale Parfitt September 26th 03 02:06 PM



Nocturnal1 wrote:

I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group,
so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times
already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from
BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess
there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit
manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for
downloading...

~Tom
Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were
unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature.


Dale W4OP


--exray-- September 26th 03 02:20 PM

Dale Parfitt wrote:


Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were
unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature.



Dale W4OP


It is usually noted on the index page who submitted the scans. You
might try and contact them directly to provide you with a better scan.

-Bill




--exray-- September 26th 03 02:20 PM

Dale Parfitt wrote:


Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were
unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature.



Dale W4OP


It is usually noted on the index page who submitted the scans. You
might try and contact them directly to provide you with a better scan.

-Bill




PJ September 26th 03 11:03 PM

If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage.

PJ

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409


Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA

ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this
copyright infringement?

~Tom





PJ September 26th 03 11:03 PM

If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage.

PJ

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409


Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA

ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this
copyright infringement?

~Tom





Joe September 27th 03 02:52 AM

Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has
NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money
from a 'stolen' work.

BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!!
And yet they are somehow saints on this matter.

You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest,
but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they
don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating
copyrights'.

So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for
your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending
them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!!

Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE
who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that
for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN
COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was
scanned at 5 DPI.

Joe


"PJ" wrote in message
...
If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier

usage.

PJ

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409


Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA

ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?

~Tom







Joe September 27th 03 02:52 AM

Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has
NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money
from a 'stolen' work.

BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!!
And yet they are somehow saints on this matter.

You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest,
but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they
don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating
copyrights'.

So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for
your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending
them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!!

Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE
who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that
for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN
COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was
scanned at 5 DPI.

Joe


"PJ" wrote in message
...
If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier

usage.

PJ

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409


Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA

ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?

~Tom







K9SQG September 27th 03 06:04 AM

Not sure which is worse, the copyright infringment or listing the manuals
without "copy" in the ad title...

K9SQG September 27th 03 06:04 AM

Not sure which is worse, the copyright infringment or listing the manuals
without "copy" in the ad title...

Roger Halstead September 27th 03 06:40 AM

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote:


"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available

for
downloading...


Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth
their time and effort.


You mean like writting for QST? :-))
It's the prestige that counts.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE



Roger Halstead September 27th 03 06:40 AM

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote:


"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available

for
downloading...


Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth
their time and effort.


You mean like writting for QST? :-))
It's the prestige that counts.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE



John D. Farr September 27th 03 07:45 AM

It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it.
John
"Joe" wrote in message
news.com...
Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has
NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money
from a 'stolen' work.

BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!!
And yet they are somehow saints on this matter.

You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest,
but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they
don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating
copyrights'.

So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for
your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending
them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!!

Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE
who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that
for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN
COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was
scanned at 5 DPI.

Joe


"PJ" wrote in message
...
If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier

usage.

PJ

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409


Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from

BAMA
ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?

~Tom









John D. Farr September 27th 03 07:45 AM

It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it.
John
"Joe" wrote in message
news.com...
Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has
NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money
from a 'stolen' work.

BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!!
And yet they are somehow saints on this matter.

You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest,
but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they
don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating
copyrights'.

So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for
your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending
them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!!

Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE
who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that
for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN
COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was
scanned at 5 DPI.

Joe


"PJ" wrote in message
...
If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier

usage.

PJ

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409


Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from

BAMA
ftp
site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is

this
copyright infringement?

~Tom









Brian Goldsmith September 27th 03 10:09 AM


"Roger Halstead" wrote

You mean like writting for QST? :-))



*** Perhaps you can issue the writs against those copyright infringers.
Brian Goldsmith.



Brian Goldsmith September 27th 03 10:09 AM


"Roger Halstead" wrote

You mean like writting for QST? :-))



*** Perhaps you can issue the writs against those copyright infringers.
Brian Goldsmith.



Ed Price September 27th 03 11:02 AM


"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for

it.
John



Would that were true! g

Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even
if it was glued to the inside of the wood case.

But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you
bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of
docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k
for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch
thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical
waveforms is $100 extra.

If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better
bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers
Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each
fill a 3" notebook binder!

Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is
much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex
equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the
factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in
software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it!

And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're
wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you
can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes
out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing
so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace.
OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g

Ed
WB6WSN



Ed Price September 27th 03 11:02 AM


"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for

it.
John



Would that were true! g

Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even
if it was glued to the inside of the wood case.

But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you
bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of
docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k
for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch
thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical
waveforms is $100 extra.

If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better
bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers
Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each
fill a 3" notebook binder!

Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is
much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex
equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the
factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in
software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it!

And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're
wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you
can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes
out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing
so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace.
OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g

Ed
WB6WSN



Dee D. Flint September 27th 03 12:22 PM


"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote:


"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely

available
for
downloading...


Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth
their time and effort.


You mean like writting for QST? :-))
It's the prestige that counts.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)



Prestige will only get a limited amount of material written. Afterall if
people aren't paid for their work, their time to write will be limited due
to the fact that they've got to have a regular job to keep body and soul
together.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Dee D. Flint September 27th 03 12:22 PM


"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote:


"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely

available
for
downloading...


Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth
their time and effort.


You mean like writting for QST? :-))
It's the prestige that counts.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)



Prestige will only get a limited amount of material written. Afterall if
people aren't paid for their work, their time to write will be limited due
to the fact that they've got to have a regular job to keep body and soul
together.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Dee D. Flint September 27th 03 12:27 PM


"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for

it.
John


Then he/she should make sure that they get the document with the equipment.
If you buy used equipment, make sure the seller has the document or go buy
the documents from the maker of the equipment.

However, since the people who are selling the copies are doing so "out in
the open" and even advertising it, the copyright holders could easily shut
them down in they wanted to. Since the copyright holders choose not to do
so, then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Out of print is not an excuse for violating copyright by the way. If
something is out of print, what you are supposed to do is get permission of
the copyright holder before making a copy. If you can't find the copyright
holder, you are generally off the hook if you can demonstrate that you have
made every reasonable effort to find them.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Dee D. Flint September 27th 03 12:27 PM


"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for

it.
John


Then he/she should make sure that they get the document with the equipment.
If you buy used equipment, make sure the seller has the document or go buy
the documents from the maker of the equipment.

However, since the people who are selling the copies are doing so "out in
the open" and even advertising it, the copyright holders could easily shut
them down in they wanted to. Since the copyright holders choose not to do
so, then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Out of print is not an excuse for violating copyright by the way. If
something is out of print, what you are supposed to do is get permission of
the copyright holder before making a copy. If you can't find the copyright
holder, you are generally off the hook if you can demonstrate that you have
made every reasonable effort to find them.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Michael A. Terrell September 27th 03 10:39 PM

Ed Price wrote:

"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for

it.
John


Would that were true! g

Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even
if it was glued to the inside of the wood case.

But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you
bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of
docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k
for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch
thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical
waveforms is $100 extra.

If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better
bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers
Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each
fill a 3" notebook binder!

Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is
much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex
equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the
factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in
software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it!

And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're
wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you
can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes
out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing
so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace.
OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g

Ed
WB6WSN


Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little
training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good
work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work,
both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look
simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to
see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board
was cooling in the reflow oven.
--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell September 27th 03 10:39 PM

Ed Price wrote:

"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for

it.
John


Would that were true! g

Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even
if it was glued to the inside of the wood case.

But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you
bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of
docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k
for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch
thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical
waveforms is $100 extra.

If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better
bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers
Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each
fill a 3" notebook binder!

Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is
much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex
equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the
factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in
software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it!

And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're
wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you
can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes
out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing
so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace.
OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g

Ed
WB6WSN


Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little
training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good
work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work,
both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look
simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to
see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board
was cooling in the reflow oven.
--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell September 28th 03 02:35 AM

Ed Price wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Ed Price wrote:

"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs

for
it.
John

Would that were true! g

Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic,

even
if it was glued to the inside of the wood case.

But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when

you
bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of
docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend

$15k
for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The

two-inch
thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and

typical
waveforms is $100 extra.

If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I

better
bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a

Programmers
Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they

each
fill a 3" notebook binder!

Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now

is
much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a

complex
equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the
factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed

in
software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it!

And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're
wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much

you
can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing

comes
out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace

spacing
so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE

trace.
OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g

Ed
WB6WSN


Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little
training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good
work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work,
both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look
simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to
see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board
was cooling in the reflow oven.
--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida


Mike:

I'm glad you agree with me, even if I had to read between the lines to find
it!

I'm pretty acquainted with fine-pitch surface-mount assembly. For years, my
company has been doing military command and communications products, all
with multi-layer boards and surface mount and flexible circuitry. We got
dozens of nimble-fingered, tiny ladies working micro-manipulators under
hideously expensive stereo microscopes or even video-cam microscopes.
Robotic assemblers pick & place with a speed that's amazing. We do computer
optical scanning of assembled boards to check for faults. And when a board
doesn't work right, we don't spend much time trying to fix it. If a tech
can't fix it in a few minutes, she harvests a couple of expensive parts and
the rest gets shredded.

And all my experience with a soldering iron and perf boards and wire wrap
simply means nothing in this world. Manual mucking around on equipment like
this scares the hell out of quality guys. They figure that anything you fix
is more than offset by your big, clumsy intrusive actions. Up to the point
where you touch the board, they figure they have most everything under
control about that item's history. You go at that board, poking and
prodding, sticking a needle-point probe who knows where. (Just for fun, if
you have a probe with a 0.01" diameter tip, which is about 7.8 x 10^^-5
square inches, and you push with 3 pounds force, you are exerting some
38,000 psi on the target!) So don't tell me you never broke anything just
trying to find the initial problem.

Let's see, it's not hard to work on. All you need is a stereo microscope and
a reflow oven, and some more "right tools."

So, should the beginner start saving for the oven or the microscope first?
g

Ed
WB6WSN


My favorite SMD tool is a modified Exacto knife carefully shaped on a
sharpening stone to fit between the pins, and the sharp point rounded
off so you don't scratch the fiberglass board. Some of the boards were
16 layer, and cost $8,000 to build and test. They were part of the
L-3com/Microdyne RCB-2000 telemetry receivers.

As far as tools for surface mount work I recommend some type of
magnifier, a good quality adjustable soldering iron. (we used the Ungar
"Loner" series) with a small tip and very fine solder. We used
Ersin/Mulitcore that looked like a hair. A small bottle with RMA flux,
and a hypodermic needle to apply small amounts of extra flux. The
smallest solder wick you can get to clean bad solder off the bad joints,
and use the wet wick method of dipping the braid into the flux and use
it wet so it reduces heat damage to the board. Also, you need to leave
about 1/16" of solder saturated braid when you clip off the used part.
That way you transfer the heat to the joint, not the circuit board.
Like any other repair/rework, it just takes the right preparation, a
steady pair of hands, and common sense.

I am currently out of work, after L-3Com closed the Microdyne plant
and moved it to the rust belt. A doctor at the VA hospital in Gainsville
recently diagnosed me with carpal tunnel in my right wrist and nerve
damage to two fingers of my left hand so its unlikely I will get a lot
of use out of those skills, now. I have been trying to find some
contract board repair, or small assembly jobs I can do from home. The
only electronics work left in the area is Lockheed-Martin, and they have
been shipping jobs to Texas. I have a decent shop, and I have been
working to make it more usable, under the circumstances.


--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell September 28th 03 02:35 AM

Ed Price wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Ed Price wrote:

"John D. Farr" wrote in message
...
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs

for
it.
John

Would that were true! g

Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic,

even
if it was glued to the inside of the wood case.

But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when

you
bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of
docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend

$15k
for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The

two-inch
thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and

typical
waveforms is $100 extra.

If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I

better
bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a

Programmers
Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they

each
fill a 3" notebook binder!

Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now

is
much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a

complex
equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the
factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed

in
software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it!

And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're
wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much

you
can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing

comes
out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace

spacing
so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE

trace.
OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g

Ed
WB6WSN


Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little
training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good
work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work,
both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look
simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to
see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board
was cooling in the reflow oven.
--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida


Mike:

I'm glad you agree with me, even if I had to read between the lines to find
it!

I'm pretty acquainted with fine-pitch surface-mount assembly. For years, my
company has been doing military command and communications products, all
with multi-layer boards and surface mount and flexible circuitry. We got
dozens of nimble-fingered, tiny ladies working micro-manipulators under
hideously expensive stereo microscopes or even video-cam microscopes.
Robotic assemblers pick & place with a speed that's amazing. We do computer
optical scanning of assembled boards to check for faults. And when a board
doesn't work right, we don't spend much time trying to fix it. If a tech
can't fix it in a few minutes, she harvests a couple of expensive parts and
the rest gets shredded.

And all my experience with a soldering iron and perf boards and wire wrap
simply means nothing in this world. Manual mucking around on equipment like
this scares the hell out of quality guys. They figure that anything you fix
is more than offset by your big, clumsy intrusive actions. Up to the point
where you touch the board, they figure they have most everything under
control about that item's history. You go at that board, poking and
prodding, sticking a needle-point probe who knows where. (Just for fun, if
you have a probe with a 0.01" diameter tip, which is about 7.8 x 10^^-5
square inches, and you push with 3 pounds force, you are exerting some
38,000 psi on the target!) So don't tell me you never broke anything just
trying to find the initial problem.

Let's see, it's not hard to work on. All you need is a stereo microscope and
a reflow oven, and some more "right tools."

So, should the beginner start saving for the oven or the microscope first?
g

Ed
WB6WSN


My favorite SMD tool is a modified Exacto knife carefully shaped on a
sharpening stone to fit between the pins, and the sharp point rounded
off so you don't scratch the fiberglass board. Some of the boards were
16 layer, and cost $8,000 to build and test. They were part of the
L-3com/Microdyne RCB-2000 telemetry receivers.

As far as tools for surface mount work I recommend some type of
magnifier, a good quality adjustable soldering iron. (we used the Ungar
"Loner" series) with a small tip and very fine solder. We used
Ersin/Mulitcore that looked like a hair. A small bottle with RMA flux,
and a hypodermic needle to apply small amounts of extra flux. The
smallest solder wick you can get to clean bad solder off the bad joints,
and use the wet wick method of dipping the braid into the flux and use
it wet so it reduces heat damage to the board. Also, you need to leave
about 1/16" of solder saturated braid when you clip off the used part.
That way you transfer the heat to the joint, not the circuit board.
Like any other repair/rework, it just takes the right preparation, a
steady pair of hands, and common sense.

I am currently out of work, after L-3Com closed the Microdyne plant
and moved it to the rust belt. A doctor at the VA hospital in Gainsville
recently diagnosed me with carpal tunnel in my right wrist and nerve
damage to two fingers of my left hand so its unlikely I will get a lot
of use out of those skills, now. I have been trying to find some
contract board repair, or small assembly jobs I can do from home. The
only electronics work left in the area is Lockheed-Martin, and they have
been shipping jobs to Texas. I have a decent shop, and I have been
working to make it more usable, under the circumstances.


--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Peter Gottlieb November 21st 03 05:40 PM

Not necessarily. Manuals are sometimes considered to be part of the cost of
producing a product. I once worked at a place where we charged for copies
of manuals - but if someone came in and wanted one we would let them borrow
one to copy. The cost to buy one was to cover our costs of repro and time
to deal with the transaction.

That was a while ago, before the web was so accessible to the public.
Nowadays there are plenty of companies which provide their manuals for free
download.

However, if you are SCO or RIAA, all bets are off...




"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available

for
downloading...


Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth
their time and effort.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




Jasper Janssen November 24th 03 06:20 PM

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint" wrote:
"Nocturnal1" wrote in message
...
If I had my druthers,
there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for
downloading...


Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth
their time and effort.


Not necessarily. The books in the Baen Free Library (freely downloadable,
no copy protection mechanisms whatsoever) tend to outsell both their own
previous sales and those of books of similar age and similar previous
sales by a factor of 4.

Jasper


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