|
I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group, so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... ~Tom "Joe" wrote in message news.com... Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA? Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY 'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about. Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!! Joe |
copyright infringement on eBay?
I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily
available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group, so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... ~Tom "Joe" wrote in message news.com... Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA? Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY 'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about. Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!! Joe |
In my experience, the holders of valid copyrights on outdated material tend
to go easy on casual swaps of copies among hobbyists. However, if it looks like someone intends to make a living selling copies of their stuff, AND the owner still stands to make significant income from said stuff, then they might get lawyers involved, probably starting with a "cease and desist" letter. A couple of years ago, I got an email from someone at SAMS (the Photofact people) noting that I had posted a portion of a 1950s SAMS TV schematic on my website. This was a restoration article and the schematic snip illustrated a specific problem that I had solved. The SAMS guy was very nice, and only asked that I give them credit for having supplied the schematic. This, despite the fact that SAMS is alive and well, and it typically sells that sort of schematic for around $25 a pop. They probably figured that the miniscule amount of free advertising for long-obsolete schematics outweighed the hassle/expense of having some higher-paid employee call me long distance to make the same request :-) The schematic snippet wasn't that important to the article anyhow, so I simply deleted it from the web article. It's harder than you might imagine to find out who -- if anyone -- still holds a valid copyright to old material. I have tried looking a couple of times, and ran out of patience long before I found an answer. It never occurred to me to look on Ebay for a schematic or manual. I have had good luck with suppliers such as http://www.w7fg.com/ and http://agtannenbaum.com/ and http://www.tubesandmore.com/ . Phil Nelson Phil's Old Radios http://antiqueradio.org/index.html |
In my experience, the holders of valid copyrights on outdated material tend
to go easy on casual swaps of copies among hobbyists. However, if it looks like someone intends to make a living selling copies of their stuff, AND the owner still stands to make significant income from said stuff, then they might get lawyers involved, probably starting with a "cease and desist" letter. A couple of years ago, I got an email from someone at SAMS (the Photofact people) noting that I had posted a portion of a 1950s SAMS TV schematic on my website. This was a restoration article and the schematic snip illustrated a specific problem that I had solved. The SAMS guy was very nice, and only asked that I give them credit for having supplied the schematic. This, despite the fact that SAMS is alive and well, and it typically sells that sort of schematic for around $25 a pop. They probably figured that the miniscule amount of free advertising for long-obsolete schematics outweighed the hassle/expense of having some higher-paid employee call me long distance to make the same request :-) The schematic snippet wasn't that important to the article anyhow, so I simply deleted it from the web article. It's harder than you might imagine to find out who -- if anyone -- still holds a valid copyright to old material. I have tried looking a couple of times, and ran out of patience long before I found an answer. It never occurred to me to look on Ebay for a schematic or manual. I have had good luck with suppliers such as http://www.w7fg.com/ and http://agtannenbaum.com/ and http://www.tubesandmore.com/ . Phil Nelson Phil's Old Radios http://antiqueradio.org/index.html |
There is nothing "free". Someone took the time and trouble to scan the
manuals, someone pays for the webspace, etc. Since you have the Heathkit manuals, why don't YOU scan them and send them to BAMA for posting. You may discover that scanning hundreds or even thousands of pages of manuals is "work". Some people are so dense as to think they should receive some form of payment for "work". I have sold hundreds of CD's on eBay containing about 50 military manuals, almost all of which I scanned myself, page by page. For a lot of the manuals, I had to buy them first, then scan, then hope to resell and recover some of my costs. Most of the people that bought my CD's were darn glad to get them as their only alternative was buying an original manual and many times the price of the CD. BTW, you will be glad to know that one of my CD buyers has put all my files on his web page so people like you can download them "free". The only work he did was to do a file copy operation taking a couple of minutes at most. good luck, 73, Phil W5BVB "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group, so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... ~Tom "Joe" wrote in message news.com... Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA? Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY 'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about. Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!! Joe |
There is nothing "free". Someone took the time and trouble to scan the
manuals, someone pays for the webspace, etc. Since you have the Heathkit manuals, why don't YOU scan them and send them to BAMA for posting. You may discover that scanning hundreds or even thousands of pages of manuals is "work". Some people are so dense as to think they should receive some form of payment for "work". I have sold hundreds of CD's on eBay containing about 50 military manuals, almost all of which I scanned myself, page by page. For a lot of the manuals, I had to buy them first, then scan, then hope to resell and recover some of my costs. Most of the people that bought my CD's were darn glad to get them as their only alternative was buying an original manual and many times the price of the CD. BTW, you will be glad to know that one of my CD buyers has put all my files on his web page so people like you can download them "free". The only work he did was to do a file copy operation taking a couple of minutes at most. good luck, 73, Phil W5BVB "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group, so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... ~Tom "Joe" wrote in message news.com... Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? Take a deep breath Tom. Where does his ad say it's from BAMA? Where does his ad say he even MADE the copy? You know as well as I know that EICO is LONG out of biz. There are MANY MANY 'companies' selling copies of old manuals - Hi Manuals and many others. This is a stale old debate that no one but zealots care about. Jezus - there are photocopies out there of manuals for gear that hasn't been sold in DECADES. Get over it! And I might add that just because BAMA doesn't charge doesn't mean they wouldn't be violating the copyrights you seem so dearly to care about!! Joe |
Nocturnal1 wrote: I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group, so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... ~Tom Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature. Dale W4OP |
Nocturnal1 wrote: I don't so dearly care about copyrights. BAMA seems to be the only readily available 'free' source of manuals available online. I am new to this group, so I didn't know that this subject has been rehashed a zillion times already - sorry about that. I didn't claim that his ad said that it was from BAMA, but it's identical to the copy I obtained from there. So I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing the same thing with my Heathkit manuals - I just scan em in and sell the copies, eh? If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... ~Tom Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature. Dale W4OP |
Dale Parfitt wrote:
Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature. Dale W4OP It is usually noted on the index page who submitted the scans. You might try and contact them directly to provide you with a better scan. -Bill |
Dale Parfitt wrote:
Although I appreciate the BAMA site, the 2 schematics I have down loaded were unreadable as far as parts values or nomenclature. Dale W4OP It is usually noted on the index page who submitted the scans. You might try and contact them directly to provide you with a better scan. -Bill |
If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage.
PJ "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409 Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? ~Tom |
If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage.
PJ "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409 Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? ~Tom |
Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has
NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money from a 'stolen' work. BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!! And yet they are somehow saints on this matter. You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest, but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating copyrights'. So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!! Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was scanned at 5 DPI. Joe "PJ" wrote in message ... If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage. PJ "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409 Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? ~Tom |
Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has
NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money from a 'stolen' work. BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!! And yet they are somehow saints on this matter. You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest, but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating copyrights'. So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!! Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was scanned at 5 DPI. Joe "PJ" wrote in message ... If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage. PJ "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409 Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? ~Tom |
Not sure which is worse, the copyright infringment or listing the manuals
without "copy" in the ad title... |
Not sure which is worse, the copyright infringment or listing the manuals
without "copy" in the ad title... |
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote: "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth their time and effort. You mean like writting for QST? :-)) It's the prestige that counts. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote: "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth their time and effort. You mean like writting for QST? :-)) It's the prestige that counts. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it.
John "Joe" wrote in message news.com... Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money from a 'stolen' work. BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!! And yet they are somehow saints on this matter. You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest, but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating copyrights'. So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!! Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was scanned at 5 DPI. Joe "PJ" wrote in message ... If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage. PJ "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409 Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? ~Tom |
It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it.
John "Joe" wrote in message news.com... Hey guys - you are not making ANY sense! Copyright has NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with the making money from a 'stolen' work. BAMA IS VIOLATING THE SAME COPYRIGHTS!!!!!!! And yet they are somehow saints on this matter. You all sit and chastise W7FG and HI Manuals and all the rest, but damnit BAMA is doing the SAME THING. The fact they don't charge has NOTHING to do with the issue of 'violating copyrights'. So if all you zealots want a BIG and I mean BIG hit for your agenda, then GO AFTER BAMA, instead of defending them and their LOUSY and UNREADABLE scans!!! Otherwise shut the hell up about it! More power to ANYONE who takes the time to make a saleable copy of a manual that for $10 or so can actually be READ, rather than the STOLEN COPYRIGHT FREE version from BAMA that looks like it was scanned at 5 DPI. Joe "PJ" wrote in message ... If you can figure out where he works, ask them to check their copier usage. PJ "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=25 409 Take a look at this and all his other "manuals" - maybe ripped from BAMA ftp site? It only takes one joker like this to wreck it for all of us. Is this copyright infringement? ~Tom |
"Roger Halstead" wrote You mean like writting for QST? :-)) *** Perhaps you can issue the writs against those copyright infringers. Brian Goldsmith. |
"Roger Halstead" wrote You mean like writting for QST? :-)) *** Perhaps you can issue the writs against those copyright infringers. Brian Goldsmith. |
"John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Would that were true! g Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even if it was glued to the inside of the wood case. But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical waveforms is $100 extra. If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each fill a 3" notebook binder! Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it! And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace. OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g Ed WB6WSN |
"John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Would that were true! g Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even if it was glued to the inside of the wood case. But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical waveforms is $100 extra. If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each fill a 3" notebook binder! Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it! And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace. OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g Ed WB6WSN |
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint" wrote: "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth their time and effort. You mean like writting for QST? :-)) It's the prestige that counts. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) Prestige will only get a limited amount of material written. Afterall if people aren't paid for their work, their time to write will be limited due to the fact that they've got to have a regular job to keep body and soul together. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint" wrote: "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth their time and effort. You mean like writting for QST? :-)) It's the prestige that counts. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) Prestige will only get a limited amount of material written. Afterall if people aren't paid for their work, their time to write will be limited due to the fact that they've got to have a regular job to keep body and soul together. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Then he/she should make sure that they get the document with the equipment. If you buy used equipment, make sure the seller has the document or go buy the documents from the maker of the equipment. However, since the people who are selling the copies are doing so "out in the open" and even advertising it, the copyright holders could easily shut them down in they wanted to. Since the copyright holders choose not to do so, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Out of print is not an excuse for violating copyright by the way. If something is out of print, what you are supposed to do is get permission of the copyright holder before making a copy. If you can't find the copyright holder, you are generally off the hook if you can demonstrate that you have made every reasonable effort to find them. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Then he/she should make sure that they get the document with the equipment. If you buy used equipment, make sure the seller has the document or go buy the documents from the maker of the equipment. However, since the people who are selling the copies are doing so "out in the open" and even advertising it, the copyright holders could easily shut them down in they wanted to. Since the copyright holders choose not to do so, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Out of print is not an excuse for violating copyright by the way. If something is out of print, what you are supposed to do is get permission of the copyright holder before making a copy. If you can't find the copyright holder, you are generally off the hook if you can demonstrate that you have made every reasonable effort to find them. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Ed Price wrote:
"John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Would that were true! g Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even if it was glued to the inside of the wood case. But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical waveforms is $100 extra. If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each fill a 3" notebook binder! Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it! And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace. OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g Ed WB6WSN Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work, both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board was cooling in the reflow oven. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Ed Price wrote:
"John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Would that were true! g Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even if it was glued to the inside of the wood case. But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical waveforms is $100 extra. If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each fill a 3" notebook binder! Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it! And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace. OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g Ed WB6WSN Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work, both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board was cooling in the reflow oven. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Ed Price wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Ed Price wrote: "John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Would that were true! g Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even if it was glued to the inside of the wood case. But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical waveforms is $100 extra. If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each fill a 3" notebook binder! Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it! And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace. OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g Ed WB6WSN Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work, both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board was cooling in the reflow oven. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida Mike: I'm glad you agree with me, even if I had to read between the lines to find it! I'm pretty acquainted with fine-pitch surface-mount assembly. For years, my company has been doing military command and communications products, all with multi-layer boards and surface mount and flexible circuitry. We got dozens of nimble-fingered, tiny ladies working micro-manipulators under hideously expensive stereo microscopes or even video-cam microscopes. Robotic assemblers pick & place with a speed that's amazing. We do computer optical scanning of assembled boards to check for faults. And when a board doesn't work right, we don't spend much time trying to fix it. If a tech can't fix it in a few minutes, she harvests a couple of expensive parts and the rest gets shredded. And all my experience with a soldering iron and perf boards and wire wrap simply means nothing in this world. Manual mucking around on equipment like this scares the hell out of quality guys. They figure that anything you fix is more than offset by your big, clumsy intrusive actions. Up to the point where you touch the board, they figure they have most everything under control about that item's history. You go at that board, poking and prodding, sticking a needle-point probe who knows where. (Just for fun, if you have a probe with a 0.01" diameter tip, which is about 7.8 x 10^^-5 square inches, and you push with 3 pounds force, you are exerting some 38,000 psi on the target!) So don't tell me you never broke anything just trying to find the initial problem. Let's see, it's not hard to work on. All you need is a stereo microscope and a reflow oven, and some more "right tools." So, should the beginner start saving for the oven or the microscope first? g Ed WB6WSN My favorite SMD tool is a modified Exacto knife carefully shaped on a sharpening stone to fit between the pins, and the sharp point rounded off so you don't scratch the fiberglass board. Some of the boards were 16 layer, and cost $8,000 to build and test. They were part of the L-3com/Microdyne RCB-2000 telemetry receivers. As far as tools for surface mount work I recommend some type of magnifier, a good quality adjustable soldering iron. (we used the Ungar "Loner" series) with a small tip and very fine solder. We used Ersin/Mulitcore that looked like a hair. A small bottle with RMA flux, and a hypodermic needle to apply small amounts of extra flux. The smallest solder wick you can get to clean bad solder off the bad joints, and use the wet wick method of dipping the braid into the flux and use it wet so it reduces heat damage to the board. Also, you need to leave about 1/16" of solder saturated braid when you clip off the used part. That way you transfer the heat to the joint, not the circuit board. Like any other repair/rework, it just takes the right preparation, a steady pair of hands, and common sense. I am currently out of work, after L-3Com closed the Microdyne plant and moved it to the rust belt. A doctor at the VA hospital in Gainsville recently diagnosed me with carpal tunnel in my right wrist and nerve damage to two fingers of my left hand so its unlikely I will get a lot of use out of those skills, now. I have been trying to find some contract board repair, or small assembly jobs I can do from home. The only electronics work left in the area is Lockheed-Martin, and they have been shipping jobs to Texas. I have a decent shop, and I have been working to make it more usable, under the circumstances. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Ed Price wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Ed Price wrote: "John D. Farr" wrote in message ... It seems that if one owns the equipment, he has a right to the docs for it. John Would that were true! g Yeah, in days of old, equipment always came with at least a schematic, even if it was glued to the inside of the wood case. But along the way, stuff got a lot more complicated. In 1960 or so, when you bought a Tek 555 scope, you got a full manual too, a couple of inches of docs. But the pressure builds to trim costs, and by the 70's, you spend $15k for an instrument, and all you get is an Operational Manual. The two-inch thick Service Manual, with theory, parts list, diagnostic trees, and typical waveforms is $100 extra. If I want the full docs now for say, an HP-8566B or an HP-8471A, I better bring a cart. There's an Operator's Manual, a Service Manual, a Programmers Manual, and a Parts List, Spares List & Calibration Manual. And they each fill a 3" notebook binder! Actually, the days of big manuals may be gone already. New equipment now is much more disposable; you don't find a master tech troubleshooting a complex equipment. Instead, they slap on an IEEE-488 diagnostic cable, run the factory supplied calibration and diagnostic, and, if it can't be fixed in software, it likely gets declared too expensive to fix. Junk it! And if you think that's gonna mean a new golden age of surplus, you're wrong. Modern gear is more computer than anything else. There's not much you can do when you see the signal go into a proprietary chip, and nothing comes out. And the construction is now all surface-mount stuff, with trace spacing so close it looks like a Moiré pattern. I defy you to probe any ONE trace. OK, so maybe you like using a microscope. g Ed WB6WSN Fine pitch surface mount isn't that hard to work on, after a little training. You do need a steady hand, and the right tools to do good work. I spent four years doing fine pitch surface mount PC board work, both testing and repairing boards that make a motherboard for a PC look simple. Because of my poor vision I had to use a stereo microscope to see the solder bridges and solder joints that cracked while the board was cooling in the reflow oven. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida Mike: I'm glad you agree with me, even if I had to read between the lines to find it! I'm pretty acquainted with fine-pitch surface-mount assembly. For years, my company has been doing military command and communications products, all with multi-layer boards and surface mount and flexible circuitry. We got dozens of nimble-fingered, tiny ladies working micro-manipulators under hideously expensive stereo microscopes or even video-cam microscopes. Robotic assemblers pick & place with a speed that's amazing. We do computer optical scanning of assembled boards to check for faults. And when a board doesn't work right, we don't spend much time trying to fix it. If a tech can't fix it in a few minutes, she harvests a couple of expensive parts and the rest gets shredded. And all my experience with a soldering iron and perf boards and wire wrap simply means nothing in this world. Manual mucking around on equipment like this scares the hell out of quality guys. They figure that anything you fix is more than offset by your big, clumsy intrusive actions. Up to the point where you touch the board, they figure they have most everything under control about that item's history. You go at that board, poking and prodding, sticking a needle-point probe who knows where. (Just for fun, if you have a probe with a 0.01" diameter tip, which is about 7.8 x 10^^-5 square inches, and you push with 3 pounds force, you are exerting some 38,000 psi on the target!) So don't tell me you never broke anything just trying to find the initial problem. Let's see, it's not hard to work on. All you need is a stereo microscope and a reflow oven, and some more "right tools." So, should the beginner start saving for the oven or the microscope first? g Ed WB6WSN My favorite SMD tool is a modified Exacto knife carefully shaped on a sharpening stone to fit between the pins, and the sharp point rounded off so you don't scratch the fiberglass board. Some of the boards were 16 layer, and cost $8,000 to build and test. They were part of the L-3com/Microdyne RCB-2000 telemetry receivers. As far as tools for surface mount work I recommend some type of magnifier, a good quality adjustable soldering iron. (we used the Ungar "Loner" series) with a small tip and very fine solder. We used Ersin/Mulitcore that looked like a hair. A small bottle with RMA flux, and a hypodermic needle to apply small amounts of extra flux. The smallest solder wick you can get to clean bad solder off the bad joints, and use the wet wick method of dipping the braid into the flux and use it wet so it reduces heat damage to the board. Also, you need to leave about 1/16" of solder saturated braid when you clip off the used part. That way you transfer the heat to the joint, not the circuit board. Like any other repair/rework, it just takes the right preparation, a steady pair of hands, and common sense. I am currently out of work, after L-3Com closed the Microdyne plant and moved it to the rust belt. A doctor at the VA hospital in Gainsville recently diagnosed me with carpal tunnel in my right wrist and nerve damage to two fingers of my left hand so its unlikely I will get a lot of use out of those skills, now. I have been trying to find some contract board repair, or small assembly jobs I can do from home. The only electronics work left in the area is Lockheed-Martin, and they have been shipping jobs to Texas. I have a decent shop, and I have been working to make it more usable, under the circumstances. -- Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Not necessarily. Manuals are sometimes considered to be part of the cost of
producing a product. I once worked at a place where we charged for copies of manuals - but if someone came in and wanted one we would let them borrow one to copy. The cost to buy one was to cover our costs of repro and time to deal with the transaction. That was a while ago, before the web was so accessible to the public. Nowadays there are plenty of companies which provide their manuals for free download. However, if you are SCO or RIAA, all bets are off... "Dee D. Flint" wrote in message .com... "Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth their time and effort. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:00:41 GMT, "Dee D. Flint" wrote:
"Nocturnal1" wrote in message ... If I had my druthers, there would be no copyright law and everything would be freely available for downloading... Nobody would write any new material in that case. It wouldn't be worth their time and effort. Not necessarily. The books in the Baen Free Library (freely downloadable, no copy protection mechanisms whatsoever) tend to outsell both their own previous sales and those of books of similar age and similar previous sales by a factor of 4. Jasper |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:04 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com