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Recapping a valuable radio?
As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still
has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
On 4-Dec-2003, starman randomly pounded his keyboard and ended up generating: As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? IMHO you are the only one who can answer that question. There has been lots of debate over the value of keeping radios as original as possible vs.replacing the known bad components in order to make it useable. In my case, I use my radios which means they get repaired using currently available parts. There are others who fervently believe a rare unit such as this should be kept in as original condition as possible. By extension, this means the radio sits on a shelf and is preserved for future generations to appreciate. Both views are correct as different people have different values. You could, of course, go the route of stuffing new components into the old cases. I've done this on the electrolytics on an SX-28. But unless you are very talented, it may end up looking like... well, cut up parts that were glued back together. You could also cause more problems during re-capping by making mistakes and blowing something else up. I think we could all agree that you should NOT run the radio with the original Black Beauties in it. The rest is up for you to decide. |
"starman" wrote in message ... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? In this case, I think a recapped radio would be less valueable. The people buying these things must think these things are more than just radios. So keeping the original capacitors in their original positions, with the original solder, etc. preserves the what -- nostalgia value? I noticed the pink Tiny Chiefs and the Black Beauties as well as the electrolytics, too. I'm sure the Hallicrafters engineers were well aware that the steel cased oil filled paper caps were more reliable. Frank Dresser |
Frank Dresser wrote:
"starman" wrote in message ... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? In this case, I think a recapped radio would be less valueable. The people buying these things must think these things are more than just radios. So keeping the original capacitors in their original positions, with the original solder, etc. preserves the what -- nostalgia value? I noticed the pink Tiny Chiefs and the Black Beauties as well as the electrolytics, too. I'm sure the Hallicrafters engineers were well aware that the steel cased oil filled paper caps were more reliable. Frank Dresser I am restoring a TS-382 Audio signal generator that is built with all bathtub cabs, and every one of them is bad. They were made with the same high acid paper that wax and molded capacitors were made with, they are just sealed in transformer oil. I am in the process of unsoldering the cans and replacing the caps inside with metal film capacitors I have to use a torch to heat the case and cover. There is a small vent hole that is soldered shut. You have to find it and remove the solder first, or it may blow hot solder on you when remove solder melts around the edge of the cover. Then I use a curved dental pick to lift the cover off while carefully heating the cover with a torch. I use a small drill press vice with smooth jaws to hold the can, and set it on a sheet of steel. (An old desktop PC case is good, because it has an open airspace under it.) When I started this I dug through my collection of NOS bathtubs, and most of them have high leakage as well. I did find one company who still makes new bathtub, and other oil filled caps, but I couldn't spend several hundred dollars for new caps for one project. -- 21 days! Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Frank Dresser wrote: "starman" wrote in message ... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? I am restoring a TS-382 Audio signal generator that is built with all bathtub cabs, and every one of them is bad. Michael A's example shows just how unpredictable it is. Personally, if I could own an SX-88 I'd want to be able to experience it in top condition in all its glory...but I am not a "collector". The only set I have knowingly left bad caps in was a Volkempfanger DKE 38 that looks like it just rolled off the assembly line. Clearly its not going to be a daily "listener" and all the new caps in the world ain't gonna help it much. It does work, however. Ya never know...those caps could actually be GOOD in the SX-88 (snicker, snicker). If I did own an SX-88, and if the caps were bad, I'd certainly change them...and I'd restuff them...and I'd enjoy the radio. If my heirs have to take a $100 reduction in the value of the radio, tough for them. -Bill |
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... I am restoring a TS-382 Audio signal generator that is built with all bathtub cabs, and every one of them is bad. They were made with the same high acid paper that wax and molded capacitors were made with, they are just sealed in transformer oil. I am in the process of unsoldering the cans and replacing the caps inside with metal film capacitors I have to use a torch to heat the case and cover. There is a small vent hole that is soldered shut. You have to find it and remove the solder first, or it may blow hot solder on you when remove solder melts around the edge of the cover. Then I use a curved dental pick to lift the cover off while carefully heating the cover with a torch. I use a small drill press vice with smooth jaws to hold the can, and set it on a sheet of steel. (An old desktop PC case is good, because it has an open airspace under it.) Steel bath tub caps have been pretty reliable for me. Certainly more reliable than paper or electolytic caps. I've got the chassis out of my S-36, and I'll check those steel caps carefully. When I started this I dug through my collection of NOS bathtubs, and most of them have high leakage as well. I did find one company who still makes new bathtub, and other oil filled caps, but I couldn't spend several hundred dollars for new caps for one project. -- 21 days! Michael A. Terrell Central Florida I only have a few NOS steel caps in my collection. I checked them a couple of years ago, and they were good. Anyway, oil filled steel caps were more reliable than paper caps and electrolytics in the mid 50s and were the usual choice with cost is no object equipment. Frank Dresser |
Depends on who is buying it, and what they want it for.
If its being bought by a collector who will just put it on the shelf (not me!), then don't re-cap. If its being bought to be used, re-capping is the only way to go. Steve starman wrote in message ... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Frank Dresser wrote:
"starman" wrote in message ... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? In this case, I think a recapped radio would be less valueable. The people buying these things must think these things are more than just radios. So keeping the original capacitors in their original positions, with the original solder, etc. preserves the what -- nostalgia value? I noticed the pink Tiny Chiefs and the Black Beauties as well as the electrolytics, too. I'm sure the Hallicrafters engineers were well aware that the steel cased oil filled paper caps were more reliable. Frank Dresser If you want if for a shelf queen and never used, then leave it original, but if you want to use it (which a fine receiver as this should be), then by all means recap it, that won't reduce it's value as much as a burnt out IF can or power transformer because of a bad cap. |
In article ,
"Frank Dresser" writes: Anyway, oil filled steel caps were more reliable than paper caps and electrolytics in the mid 50s and were the usual choice with cost is no object equipment. When I got my Collins R-388 (51J3), the AVC was bad. I was surprised when I traced it to a very leaky steel bathtub cap -- I thought those mil-spec babies never went bad. I left the cap in place a wired a replacement on top of it (not beautiful, but easily "restored" to "original"). I still wouldn't go thru a radio and just replace every metal bathtub cap, the way you would the wax firecrackers or Black Uglies. If I somehow found an SX-88, I would insist on using it, often -- so would recap it and enjoy. My widow will still get her $10 for it either way. --Mike K. Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
"JJ" wrote in message ... If you want if for a shelf queen and never used, then leave it original, but if you want to use it (which a fine receiver as this should be), then by all means recap it, that won't reduce it's value as much as a burnt out IF can or power transformer because of a bad cap. Actually, I don't want it, at least at that price. I enjoy fixing up "affordable" junkers. So my chances of ever having a SX-88 range from none to slimmer than none. It's worth remembering that the SX-88, while expensive, was hardly the most expensive radio of the mid 50s. The Hammarlund SP-600 and Collins 51Js were in the $900+ class. Hallicrafters sold the SX-73 in the $900 + class a few years before. No doubt Bill Halligan saw a hole at the $600 price point and decided to make a radio to fill it. But the $600 SX-88 didn't take over the market of the more expensive radios, nor was it cloned by the other manufacturers. I've never used any of these radios, but the guys who spending big bucks for radios back then weren't buying many SX-88. That's what starts me thinking that the SX-88 is more than just a radio. Hallicrafters bought alot of advertising in the 50s, and I'm sure alot of kids who were saving their paper route money to buy the S-38 were drooling over all those Hallicrafters ads with the S-85s, the SX-96s and that beautiful, unobtainable SX-88. For alot of those grown up kids, coming up with a few grand is now easier than coming up with sixty bucks was, almost fifty years ago. I don't have any compelling reason to chase after the elusive SX-88. The other high end radios of the mid 50s seem like they'd perform at least as well. But if I ever pick up a pristine SX-88 at a hamfest for $100, it would be, not a shelf queen, but a shelf princess, waiting for the prince to take her to the castle. No new caps, maybe no AC. I'd preserve it for the guys who see that there's more than a radio in a SX-88. Frank Dresser |
Who says the owner is actually gonna plug in the darned thing and listen to
it! That four-figure radio is a trophy....not a radio! Personal story: I just took delivery of an almost mint vintage 1967 ham transceiver. It was out of the box for about three hours, playing on the test bench when.....kapow!... up went a "point-one" bypass cap in smoke. Well, my "mint" radio lasted about that long. Get out the soldering iron. Only a fool pays $3,000-plus for an old Hallicrafter radio....a Bigger fool will turn on the power switch! Pat, WPE9JRL "starman" wrote in message ... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
starman wrote:
As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay.... Would it lessen the value if it was recapped?.. Yes, it will. You might want to consider something I've written about before- lowered B+, which may allow you to use the radio safely with leaky caps. I've successfully run collectable radios with 24 volts on the plates and an external, amplified speaker. They work fine with no componant damage and have done so for years. Pull out the rectifier and apply 20-50 volts to the B+ buss to see "how low you can go." You can use series caps in the HV transformer leads to drop the voltage, which is better than trying to use a dropping resistor. Unless you have a cap that is a dead short, I'd bet the radio will play for you. Before anyone writes back about "cathode poisoning," that debate went on a couple of years ago and the outcome was that it was pretty much a mythical problem. If you don't want to run low B+, you can do another trick- unsolder one lead from the old component, tuck it out of the way and "tack" solder in a modern replacement. The radio can be put back to 100% original if a collector cares to do so. I've recapped and re-resistored some WWII radios this way. GL OM ES 73 DE Dave AB5S |
"starman" wrote in message ... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? -----= I'd be more worried about the quality of the workmanship. I've seen some pretty shoddy "restorations" by "profesunals" that left a lot to be desired. Pete k1zjh |
The only set I left bad caps in is my SX-28 because I was too chickensh*t to
go in that RF section! -- Brian Denley http://home.comcast.net/~b.denley/index.html "- - Bill - -" exray@coquidotnet wrote in message ... The only set I have knowingly left bad caps in was a Volkempfanger DKE 38 that looks like it just rolled off the assembly line. Clearly its not going to be a daily "listener" and all the new caps in the world ain't gonna help it much. It does work, however. |
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The fact is in the UK at the moment a nice vintage WORKING radio is worth much more than an untouched non working one.. This may change over the next few years of course Take the famous R1155 receiver, the mod to remove the defunct DF componants in the 50's has reduced the value on Ebay to about £60 a complete but none working one goes for about £100 BUT a complete and working one even if a few caps have been replaced I've seen go for over £200 so who is to say? Also I must agree with the low voltage option!! I have found this myself, take an old radio with leaky caps and dodgy smoothing and leave it running warm at about 30% power for a couple of weeks 24hrs a day and it comes back to life remarkably well!! at least it gives you a working perfect example, if I am forced to do any mods like changing caps plugs or leads I shrink wrap all the removed bits and attach them with a description of what was done to the case inside. as after all we are only temporary owners :)) These days I prefer to buy old sets that have been modified or are badly beaten up for a silly price, I have more fun getting back close to original working spec and don't feel guilty replacing parts hi!!! from Ron..... On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 02:55:36 -0500, starman wrote: As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
"starman" wrote in message
... As you may know, there's an SX-88 on Ebay. The pictures show it still has the original paper capacitors like the 'Tiny Chiefs' and 'Black Beauties', which are known to become leaky. Should a valuable radio like the '88' be run with these caps' and possibly damage an irreplacable componant, such as an I.F. transformer? Would it lessen the value if it was recapped? I own an SX-88 and I had no hesitation in recapping it. I use it regularly. If you're not going to replace the old capacitors, then DON'T turn it on. I collect radios for the purpose of restoring and using them, so the concept of owning an unplayable "shelf queen" holds little allure. I doubt that recapping would seriously affect the value of this particular set, but then I don't operate a museum full of shelf queens. You can always save the old caps in a sack in case some future owner wants to restuff them. Keep in mind that it's basically impossible to restuff a plastic cap such as a Black Beauty. Regards, Phil Nelson Phil's Old Radios http://antiqueradio.org/index.html |
"Phil Nelson" wrote in message I collect radios for the purpose of restoring and using them, so the concept of owning an unplayable "shelf queen" holds little allure. I doubt that recapping would seriously affect the value of this particular set, but then I don't operate a museum full of shelf queens. You can always save the old caps in a sack in case some future owner wants to restuff them. Keep in mind that it's basically impossible to restuff a plastic cap such as a Black Beauty. Regards, Phil Nelson Phil's Old Radios http://antiqueradio.org/index.html I'll bet Syl comes up with replicas pretty soon, if he hasn't already. Should be very easy to make molds of the originals, and then recast mylars with an expoxy shell... Add some paint, lettering, viola! Pete |
" Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news:6egOb.10630$ct4.4087@lakeread05... I don't operate a museum full of shelf queens. You can always save the old caps in a sack in case some future owner wants to restuff them. Keep in mind that it's basically impossible to restuff a plastic cap such as a Black Beauty. I'll bet Syl comes up with replicas pretty soon, if he hasn't already. Sure, why not. And rather than waste good new mylars inside those repros, he can have a few hundred bad old paper caps from my saving-sacks. Then he can peddle the repackaged "bumblebees" to guitar guys on Ebay for $$$. No point wasting time trying to match up correct values -- those guys want distortion, and I have bushels to offer! :-) Phil |
"Mike Knudsen" wrote in message
... I was surprised when I traced it to a very leaky steel bathtub cap -- I thought those mil-spec babies never went bad. I left the cap in place a wired a replacement on top of it (not beautiful, but easily "restored" to "original"). I had the same experience when restoring my 2nd Scott 800B6. Someone alerted me during that project that some bathtubs are in fact paper caps, not oil-filled, and you can't really tell the difference by staring at them. I tested them and sure enough, they were leaky as heck. I wired replacements around the original bathtubs, as Mike describes. One of these days, I should go back through my 1st 800B6 and check the bathtubs that I left untouched, on the assumption that they were "just fine." Phil Nelson Phil's Old Radios http://antiqueradio.org/index.html |
In article k.net, "Phil
Nelson" writes: I wired replacements around the original bathtubs, as Mike describes. One of these days, I should go back through my 1st 800B6 and check the bathtubs that I left untouched, on the assumption that they were "just fine." Glad someone else agrees with my "bathtub" experience (well, maybe not glad that someone else had to replace one too). I'm starting to wonder if there's such a thing as a cap that can always be *assumed* to be good (mica, vacuum, etc.). Well, maybe assumed good till the evidence points right to it (smoking resistor, not gun :-) --Mike K. Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
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