|
EH Scott 'morale' receiver
I found an EH Scott SLR-12-B (Navy? 'morale') receiver
(550kc-16Mc) for sale. I would like to know what ($) to offer for it presuming good working condition. I have not been able to find much information about this set on the internet. If you know of any EH Scott BA resources I would appreciate if you share them with me. TIA! |
Biz WDØHCO wrote:
E.H. Scott was a native New Zealander who came to the US and founded Scott Transformer Co in 1924. The name of the company was changed to Scott Radio Labs when it was re-located to Chicago in 1931. Scott sold most of his interest in the company when he was demoted from president to sales manager 1944 and resigned in 1945. He died in his retirement home in Victoria B.C. Canada. Some (quoted) facts well stated, others tend to carry a bias. The E.H. Scott Morale Receiver is interesting in that it was the only receiver made during WW2 where radiation from the local oscillators were heavily suppressed. Absolute BS. Now the Scott story takes a twist. Scott mfgd a whole slew of non-mil radios in that era. So did many others. I've got a cheapo PECO radio in the closet that was sold in PXs in places like Tarawa. No 'special' filtering or shielding of the LO. Up to that point, the Germans learned to DF a convoy by tuning into the signals given off by local oscillators. Some German subs could detect these signals from as far as 100 miles at night. Needless to say, Scott sold many receivers to the U.S. Navy. Hmmm, ok. Still they remain fairly rare on the market. I'd offer $60 to $80 and see if the seller bites. You will probably have to changed the electrolytic caps and a few tubes. I'd say they are fairly common, at least on ebay, and more like 150-200... and three dollars worth of hastily ho-rigged-in replacement caps would only be a negative to the sets value as a collectible. Of course I could be wrong also... -Bill WX4A - Biz WD0HCO |
C'mon - be honest. Just put it on Ebay and see what you get.
"Rich" wrote in message ... I found an EH Scott SLR-12-B (Navy? 'morale') receiver (550kc-16Mc) for sale. I would like to know what ($) to offer for it presuming good working condition. I have not been able to find much information about this set on the internet. If you know of any EH Scott BA resources I would appreciate if you share them with me. TIA! |
"Rich" wrote in message ... I found an EH Scott SLR-12-B (Navy? 'morale') receiver (550kc-16Mc) for sale. I would like to know what ($) to offer for it presuming good working condition. I have not been able to find much information about this set on the internet. If you know of any EH Scott BA resources I would appreciate if you share them with me. TIA! I've posted a page about the Scott REE receiver from Fred Osterman's "Shortwave Radios Past & Present" on the alt.binaries.pictures.radio group. The REE seems very similar to your description of the SLR-12-B radio. The circled numbers on the lower chart mean: 1 -- New price unknown 5 -- Used price unknown 6 -- Insufficent information available for a value rating No prices, but the other info may be useful. Here's a sales flyer I found very interesting about EH Scott and one of his fancy civilian shortwave radios: http://www181.pair.com/otsw/Scott.html Frank Dresser |
"Biz WDØHCO" wrote in message ... [snip] .. The E.H. Scott Morale Receiver is interesting in that it was the only receiver made during WW2 where radiation from the local oscillators were heavily suppressed. Lots of receivers had dual pentode RF stages to minimize oscillator leakage. Up to that point, the Germans learned to DF a convoy by tuning into the signals given off by local oscillators. Some German subs could detect these signals from as far as 100 miles at night. I'd think that regenerative recievers operated by careless operators were the real risk of giving a ship's location away. Detecting a normal superhet at 100 miles seems iffy to me. [snip] Frank Dresser |
Some (quoted) facts well stated, others tend to carry a bias. The E.H. Scott Morale Receiver is interesting in that it was the only receiver made during WW2 where radiation from the local oscillators were heavily suppressed. Absolute BS. Now the Scott story takes a twist. Scott mfgd a whole slew of non-mil radios in that era. So did many others. I've got a cheapo PECO radio in the closet that was sold in PXs in places like Tarawa. No 'special' filtering or shielding of the LO. YES BUBBA... but we are talking about a Military SLR-12-B and the statement above is very true. As for the "whole slew of" bit - civilian radio production (along with a whole lot of other things) was severely reduced during the war years. Up to that point, the Germans learned to DF a convoy by tuning into the signals given off by local oscillators. Some German subs could detect these signals from as far as 100 miles at night. Needless to say, Scott sold many receivers to the U.S. Navy. Hmmm, ok. Still they remain fairly rare on the market. I'd offer $60 to $80 and see if the seller bites. You will probably have to changed the electrolytic caps and a few tubes. I'd say they are fairly common, at least on ebay, and more like 150-200... and three dollars worth of hastily ho-rigged-in replacement caps would only be a negative to the sets value as a collectible. eBay is a great place to sell - bad place to buy. The gentleman was buying the radio. I wouldn't pay more than $80 for it myself. But then again, I wouldn't pay $8,000 for an SX-88, but that just me. I'm not a blonde, bloated burned out musician. ;^) Seen No SLR-12-B's on eBay for the past year. Right about electrolytics - yep they cost bucks - which is why Rich should pay even LESS for that old Scott! Of course I could be wrong also... CLARO QUE SI! -Bill WX4A |
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:08:23 GMT, (Rich) wrote:
I found an EH Scott SLR-12-B (Navy? 'morale') receiver (550kc-16Mc) for sale. I would like to know what ($) to offer for it presuming good working condition. I have not been able to find much information about this set on the internet. If you know of any EH Scott BA resources I would appreciate if you share them with me. TIA! There's a few pics and schematics here http://www.schroeder-dieball.com/scottradiolabs/ but not a lot on the merchant marine sets. regards, Ron Hershey |
|
"Biz WDØHCO" wrote in message ... This is fun! Well yea about the regen for sure - Some of those Superhets leaked just as much. (Like a T.O. in a leatherette covered plywood box) The page I posted on the binaries says the Scott REE was used in the crew's quarters. Was the well shielded Scott radio provided so crewmen wouldn't be tempted to bring their own radio on board? but think about this... middle of the ocean - late at night - 100's of miles from anything - floating around in a sub with everything turned off - During a war under radio silence with just receivers turned on... 100 miles seems possible to me. I think "possible" and "iffy" are two ways of saying the same thing from different viewpoints. I suspect the usual thunderstorm crackle from South and Central America, the Caribbean, the Mediterranean and Africa would overwhelm local oscillator radiation from a superhet at much less than 100 miles nearly all the time. All bets are off in the case of a regenerative receiver being used with the detector's regeneration control turned up into the oscillation region in order that an anticipated CW signal could be heard more clearly. The posted page also says the Germans were suspected of being able to listen in on the 455 kc IF radiation. This would even more tenous than local oscillator radiation. Again, not impossible, but I doubt long range detection could be done with any reliability. I don't doubt ships were being detected at long range, and using well shielded receivers was a wise precaution. But I'll speculate that German code breaking detected at least as many ships as long range direction finding, and it wasn't immediately obvious to our Navy just what tipped off the ship's location. Frank Dresser |
Thanks to all for taking the time to reply. The historic background
from Biz & Bill puts this set in some context for me. Frank, thanks for posting the Ostermann page to the binaries. Ron I appreciate the website resource. If you are interested I have posted a photo of the Scott , as well as some other items I found, at the following link; http://home.att.net/~richs_radios/Whats_New.html Also a friend supplied me with a large Scott advertisement via email. I cut out the image of a Scott 'marine model' set and posted it next to the SLR for comparison. |
In article , Ron Hershey
writes: There's a few pics and schematics here http://www.schroeder-dieball.com/scottradiolabs/ but not a lot on the merchant marine sets. Beautiful photos, of sets clear back to the 201-A days, and later ones with more chrome than a '58 Olds. The RCH entry is a single photo of the same radio I have, with a Hammarlund or SX-28 style dial. I believe "RCH" is also used for a slide-rule dial type Scott. My RCH is probably a backup comm rx, not a morale entertainment set, since it unfortunately sacrifices the AM BC band to include two LW bands, as for marine communications. It does provide for feeding a second audio source into its output stage; unclear what that was used for. The audio output is a single 6F6 or 6V6 or the like, so this RX would not be driving speakers all over the ship. 73, Mike K. Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
In article , "Frank
Dresser" writes: All bets are off in the case of a regenerative receiver being used with the detector's regeneration control turned up into the oscillation region in order that an anticipated CW signal could be heard more clearly. ISTR reading once that regen sets (and the Navy was using plenty of them, especially for LW and VLF) really were a major problem. To copy CW, you do have to adjust so the set is just barely oscillating. Fortunately, most Navy regens had one or two RF stages ahead of the detector. I had an RAK VLF set that was just incredibly sensitive and selective, with 3-gang tuning and individual trimmer knobs on both RF stages. There was an HF edtion of this set too. The posted page also says the Germans were suspected of being able to listen in on the 455 kc IF radiation. This would even more tenous than local oscillator radiation. Again, not impossible, but I doubt long range detection could be done with any reliability. IF radiation would be pushing it, but it has the advantage that there's only a very narrow band of freqs to monitor. An advantage (for the U-boats) of regen rx is that one could listen to the enemy transmitter freqs, which you'd be monitoring anyway, and a steady "carier" would mean a nice plump target nearby. As for code cracking and good old "loose lips" in dockside bars, when enemy U-boats are sinking your ships, you don't *know* why, you just grope for possibilities, and radio receiver radiation was one explanation. Along those lines, our Navy did fool the U-boats into thinking that we were picking up on their super-regen radar detectors, thus causing them to shut those off, making it easier to catch them on the surface. --Mike K. Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
|
What a great source of information/history you all have provided. This
was a third party transaction. Sadly the primary party (the owner?) called off the deal. It appears he has discovered another buyer (?). It seems I missed my chance and (sadly) won't see any of these items any time soon. Life goes on... Thanks to all for the assistance and especially the history - great stuff! Any additional history is appreciated and encouraged since there does not seem to be much recorded except in the minds of the survivors. |
"Biz WDØHCO" wrote in message ... in article , Frank Dresser at wrote on 3/26/04 2:09 AM: You are right - but we were talking about the North Atlantic sub activity - 45 to 55 deg lat. Very few lightning strikes within this region - it's quiet most evenings even in the dead of summer. A dead carrier, even a weak one is easy to find with the BFO just barely audible and the AGC turned off. And a big storm can be heard for hundreds, if not thousands of miles, especially at Long Wave. You must remember that LF "Huff-Duff" was pretty advanced at the time. LF airport beacons were the primary form of Aircraft and coastal ship navigation. (They still exist to this day but I doubt few pilots even know how to use them.). Almost every ship and plane had one of those funny loop antennas and if you look at old pictures - you'll see that German subs had them too. Even though there were very few Nav beacons in Europe during the war. !!??!! I'll assume they were capable of getting a fix on thier location using the known locations of broadcast stations in the US and Europe. You might be right about the range but NAVY was concerned enough to give large RCVR contracts to Scott. The ARMY didn't care and they got Echophone EC-6's and Halli RE-1 Sky Courier's. GI's could carry (later drag) their own radios and many did. T.O.s were the most popular with officers. Poor solders had the "Gillette Blue Blade" special. ;^) The Germans may have let rumors spread about their advanced direction finding capability. Such rumors would give some cover to other successful intelligence gathering. Some Salvagers came across a sunken German Sub just off the New Jersey coast. Clearly they were parked several miles offshore watching for the start of a convoy. Somehow they signaled the German High Command which ordered the wolf pack to form a sub screen (straight line of subs 100 miles apart) and wait for the convoy to pass. Top speed for those concrete "Victory" ships was about 6 knots so, for the most part, they were sitting ducks once spotted. That brings up another couple of questions. Did the merchant marine have receivers as good as the US Navy had? Were the Merchant radiomen as well trained as the Navy radiomen? Historically very little has been written about the bravery of merchant seamen. If your ship was hit and went down - You would watch convoy ships pass by because they were under orders not to stop. You would have an hour or two splashing in the water till the end. If you could find a life boat - you would be 1500 to 2500 miles or more from land. A slim chance at best. The survival rate of German submariners wasn't particularly high as the war came to a close, either. Long Range Flying boats patrolling the North Atlantic and improved Sonar technology finally ended the Nazi sub terror. I'll also mention code breaking in the anti-sub war. So you see, there is a little bit of history in every old radio ... :^) - Biz WDØHCO Frank Dresser |
Hi,
My RCH is probably a backup comm rx, not a morale entertainment set, since it unfortunately sacrifices the AM BC band to include two LW bands, as for marine communications. It does provide for feeding a second audio source into its output stage; unclear what that was used for. The audio output is a single 6F6 or 6V6 or the like, so this RX would not be driving speakers all over the ship. 73, Mike K. You can see one installed in a Mackay communications console in the 4th ed. of THe Radio Manual by Sterling & Monroe, 1950. Pages 511 to 553 are devoted to this console, including a fold-out schematic of the Scott receiver itself (called an SLR-F). It was paired with a Mackay 128AV (15 - 650kHz, battery-powered) Scott made a big deal of low-radiation receivers and German direction-finding, but it's far more likely that the low radiation was only to avoid interference with other receivers on the ship. It's a very crowded RF environment. I had an SLR12 once and its dial-drive mechanism was sluggish, not a set you'd want for band-cruising. They were after all meant to be left in one position and not re-tuned often. The geared dial on an RCH works like a dream, in comparison. 73, Alan |
In article , Alan Douglas
adouglasatgis.net writes: You can see one installed in a Mackay communications console in the 4th ed. of THe Radio Manual by Sterling & Monroe, 1950. Pages 511 to 553 are devoted to this console, including a fold-out schematic of the Scott receiver itself (called an SLR-F). It was paired with a Mackay 128AV (15 - 650kHz, battery-powered) Does this mean the RCH served as the audio output stage for the Mackay? I can imagine a lot of military rx wer made with only "line level" or "diode load" outputs, meant to feed RTTY decoders and the like, and the RCH wuld provide a speaker audio driver for such rx. Scott made a big deal of low-radiation receivers and German direction-finding, but it's far more likely that the low radiation was only to avoid interference with other receivers on the ship. It's a very crowded RF environment. True, and this is why the R390 series has such a rugged multi-tuned front end, and well into the sorry-state era was specified for shipboard use because it could stand up to the onboard transmitters. I had an SLR12 once and its dial-drive mechanism was sluggish, not a set you'd want for band-cruising. They were after all meant to be left in one position and not re-tuned often. The geared dial on an RCH works like a dream, in comparison. Right, the RCH tuning is silky smooth. Too bad Scott didn't put a vernier 0-100 readout on the knob shaft for ease in returning to a station, although the 0-200 logging scale is better than nothing. I suspect some ops may have put a 0-100 skirted knob on that shaft and scribed an index mark on the front panel. Since the RCH has a BFO with pitch control, I tend to believe it was for backup comm rather than entertainment. Lack of xtal filter makes it only a backup for CW. Tnx fer the commentary, Alan. 73, Mike K. AA1UK Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
The Germans may have let rumors spread about their advanced direction finding capability. Such rumors would give some cover to other successful intelligence gathering. Yep and it works both ways - America's version was that the Army Air Corps were giving carrots to fighter pilots to improve their eye site and this was why so many German planes were being shot out of the sky. AAC even had staged pictures of pilots at a mess hall with plates of carrots and standing under airplanes chewing "ala Bugs Bunny" carrots. Life magazine ran those pics and German pilots soon came under orders to eat more carrots. This was a cover story for the fact that front line bases had started receiving planes equipped with Radar. Carrots do nothing for eye site but try telling that to your mother. Funny how these myths are still around. That brings up another couple of questions. Did the merchant marine have receivers as good as the US Navy had? Were the Merchant radiomen as well trained as the Navy radiomen? Shipboard receiver installations varied widely depending on how prosperous the shipping company was. Some were every bit as equal to any land installation while others were little more than (as an old timer once told me) a Marconi turd with a cat whisker stuck in it. About training - well first - many Merchant R OPs's joined the Armed Forces right off - so that left those with age, foot or vision problems or retired OPs to man the radio shacks. Most of these men were trained by RCA Worldwide Wireless or Marconi. ALL had many years of practical experience on the high seas. Navy on the other hand had a problem - ships were being built at a fantastic rate and only recently trained "8 Week Wonders" Radio Ops who never had been out to sea to man the shacks. The Navy had to sprinkle experienced Ham Radio and Merchant Marines as lead OPs throughout the fleet to keep things moving till the green horns got up to speed. As it was, there were a number of comical foulups related to mis-communications. The survival rate of German submariners wasn't particularly high as the war came to a close, either. Yep - Ive heard of stories of passing Convoy ships firing their deck guns on German Life boats - a big Geneva treaty NO NO. Also heard about s broken down U-boat with the whole crew lined up outside on top waving white flags. Passing ship turned toward it, increased speed and rammed it and kept on going. I think it was safe to say there was some serious hatred there. I'll also mention code breaking in the anti-sub war. hmmm ok - where should I start? We are of course talking about the British breaking the codes being sent and received by German Enigma Code machines. Brits are proud of saying their collection of eccentric mathematics wizards and puzzle solving misfits broke the code in something like 3 or 4 weeks. What is glossed over is that the front line German Radio OPs were somewhat lazy and seldom if ever changed the code wheels on the machine. The German high command believed their code machine unbreakable but even so still changed the code wheels on a weekly basis for high level comms. They believed even if front line comms could be broken - they were of little strategic value to the enemy. Of course we now know, if you broken low level comms you can follow the messages up the chain and stand a good chance of breaking that code if you know what is in the message being sent. The Bits did this and now had access to most of the Germany Armed Forces comms. Now what to do with it? What now follows is my own speculation - much of the story still remains classified to this day. I can only go back and look at the historical facts and come up with some fairly logical deductions - ...in other words - I'm guessing... (1) Clearly - Churchill could have told the Americans early on - He choose not to do this until much later. (2) Britan could not directly go after subs and ships. To do so would tip the Germans that the code was broken and force them to change their wheels on a daily (or hourly) basis. Remember it took 3 weeks (and I suspect much more) to break each code. So even though they had a stolen Enigma and the tools to break the code - it would have been of little use if the code was changed daily. (3) America at the time was isolationist. The Brits saw what a single Jap Attack at Pearl Harbor had done. Almost overnight, America was at war - with Japan. Most Americans wanted to fight the Japs only - they had no beef with Germany. (4) The Lend-Lease convoys were US Merchant Ships carrying U.S. War Material protected by the U.S. Navy Ships manned by US Sailors. The Brits knew the exact locations of German subs out to sink the convoys but kept quiet. The loss of some shipping and American lives would keep the United States focused and involved with the war in Europe. (5) As you can imagine - the Americans were livid when finally told. Not so much for the loss of American life but for the fact they were so well played by Churchill. (6) This and the massive defeat ("Heroic Retreat" as the Brits tell it) at Dunkirk were probably the two major factors in selecting an American as Supreme Allied Commander. Of course all this is just idle speculation... I think the code breaking used in the anti-sub effort came much later when it was certain America would join the British War effort. But we may never really know. -B One comment to Mikes Post - Many WW2 Comm RCVRS didn't have Phasing or XTAL Filters - Radio OPs were trained and expected to copy CW perfectly even with a bunch of signals blaring out of the headphones. Just par for the course back then. Myself - I can copy 30 WPM CW with 5 other stations nearby. You train your brain to focus on just one tone and filter everything else out. That ol noodle is a remarkable filter. I often listen to a Halli S-38D on the 40 meter CW band at night and that's what 6 or 8 kc wide?? |
Hi,
You can see one installed in a Mackay communications console in the 4th ed. of THe Radio Manual by Sterling & Monroe, 1950. Pages 511 to 553 are devoted to this console, including a fold-out schematic of the Scott receiver itself (called an SLR-F). It was paired with a Mackay 128AV (15 - 650kHz, battery-powered) Does this mean the RCH served as the audio output stage for the Mackay? I can imagine a lot of military rx wer made with only "line level" or "diode load" outputs, meant to feed RTTY decoders and the like, and the RCH wuld provide a speaker audio driver for such rx. If I'm reading the text correctly, position 2 was not used, but the "Mixed" mode fed time signals to check the chronometer. 73, Alan |
In article , Biz WD=?ISO-8859-1?B?2A==?=HCO
writes: One comment to Mikes Post - Many WW2 Comm RCVRS didn't have Phasing or XTAL Filters - Radio OPs were trained and expected to copy CW perfectly even with a bunch of signals blaring out of the headphones. Just par for the course back then. Myself - I can copy 30 WPM CW with 5 other stations nearby. You train your brain to focus on just one tone and filter everything else out. That ol noodle is a remarkable filter. I often listen to a Halli S-38D on the 40 meter CW band at night and that's what 6 or 8 kc wide?? ISTR that as a Novice, I could do some of that, and some of my fellow Novice ops bragged about it too. Once they upgraded from a Heath AR-3 to SX-99, maybe their skill got rusty :-) Of course most of us can copy "air phone" at a crowded party, picking a friend's converstaion out of equally loud voices in the room. Not that it's easy, but it works. 73, Mike K. Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
In article , Biz WD=?ISO-8859-1?B?2A==?=HCO
writes: (2) Britan could not directly go after subs and ships. To do so would tip the Germans that the code was broken and force them to change their wheels on a daily (or hourly) basis. Remember it took 3 weeks (and I suspect much more) to break each code. So even though they had a stolen Enigma and the tools to break the code - it would have been of little use if the code was changed daily. It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew the German air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not warn any civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the Krauts that we were reading their mail. So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K. Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me. |
Mike Knudsen wrote:
It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew the German air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not warn any civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the Krauts that we were reading their mail. So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K. Thats the difference in looking at the fact after versus before the occurrence. One of the techniques used by both sides was to send literally hundreds of fake messages along with the 'good' one. This kept the decoding gals busy and still left some doubt about which one(s) were the real messages. If they had copied mail that included every city in Britain as a target...and later one in particular got bombed...its quite easy to say that they knew ahead of time and here's the evidence to prove it. -BM |
"Biz WDØHCO" wrote in message ... Shipboard receiver installations varied widely depending on how prosperous the shipping company was. Some were every bit as equal to any land installation while others were little more than (as an old timer once told me) a Marconi turd with a cat whisker stuck in it. About training - well first - many Merchant R OPs's joined the Armed Forces right off - so that left those with age, foot or vision problems or retired OPs to man the radio shacks. Most of these men were trained by RCA Worldwide Wireless or Marconi. ALL had many years of practical experience on the high seas. Navy on the other hand had a problem - ships were being built at a fantastic rate and only recently trained "8 Week Wonders" Radio Ops who never had been out to sea to man the shacks. The Navy had to sprinkle experienced Ham Radio and Merchant Marines as lead OPs throughout the fleet to keep things moving till the green horns got up to speed. As it was, there were a number of comical foulups related to mis-communications. Yeah, that makes sense. Yep - Ive heard of stories of passing Convoy ships firing their deck guns on German Life boats - a big Geneva treaty NO NO. Also heard about s broken down U-boat with the whole crew lined up outside on top waving white flags. Passing ship turned toward it, increased speed and rammed it and kept on going. I think it was safe to say there was some serious hatred there. I'll also mention code breaking in the anti-sub war. hmmm ok - where should I start? We are of course talking about the British breaking the codes being sent and received by German Enigma Code machines. Brits are proud of saying their collection of eccentric mathematics wizards and puzzle solving misfits broke the code in something like 3 or 4 weeks. What is glossed over is that the front line German Radio OPs were somewhat lazy and seldom if ever changed the code wheels on the machine. The German high command believed their code machine unbreakable but even so still changed the code wheels on a weekly basis for high level comms. They believed even if front line comms could be broken - they were of little strategic value to the enemy. Of course we now know, if you broken low level comms you can follow the messages up the chain and stand a good chance of breaking that code if you know what is in the message being sent. The Bits did this and now had access to most of the Germany Armed Forces comms. Now what to do with it? What now follows is my own speculation - much of the story still remains classified to this day. I can only go back and look at the historical facts and come up with some fairly logical deductions - ..in other words - I'm guessing... (1) Clearly - Churchill could have told the Americans early on - He choose not to do this until much later. I've read Churchill wanted as much American involvement as possible, particularly after Dunkirk. He was dealing with Roosevelt through Sir William Stephenson. Churchill and Stephenson decided to risk sharing their best intelligence information in order to show Roosevelt that the Great Britian still had a chance. Without the shared intelligence, the deal for the old destroyers and other arms almost certainly would never have gone through. (2) Britan could not directly go after subs and ships. To do so would tip the Germans that the code was broken and force them to change their wheels on a daily (or hourly) basis. Remember it took 3 weeks (and I suspect much more) to break each code. So even though they had a stolen Enigma and the tools to break the code - it would have been of little use if the code was changed daily. You're right. The codes couldn't have been timely enough to locate the subs. Radio location could, but the destroyers and bombers would almost be too late to find anything. The value was, I suppose, more stratigic than tactical (as they say on cable TV) (3) America at the time was isolationist. The Brits saw what a single Jap Attack at Pearl Harbor had done. Almost overnight, America was at war - with Japan. Most Americans wanted to fight the Japs only - they had no beef with Germany. (4) The Lend-Lease convoys were US Merchant Ships carrying U.S. War Material protected by the U.S. Navy Ships manned by US Sailors. The Brits knew the exact locations of German subs out to sink the convoys but kept quiet. The loss of some shipping and American lives would keep the United States focused and involved with the war in Europe. The story is that Roosevelt knew. I can't be sure the story is absolutely true, but it seems credible. I doubt the exact location of the German subs could have been determined in a useful way until aircraft had good radar. (5) As you can imagine - the Americans were livid when finally told. Not so much for the loss of American life but for the fact they were so well played by Churchill. I don't think Roosevelt was played by Churchill. They were pretty much in agreement about defending England, and defeating Hitler. (6) This and the massive defeat ("Heroic Retreat" as the Brits tell it) at Dunkirk were probably the two major factors in selecting an American as Supreme Allied Commander. It would have also have been tougher to maintin a "Hitler First" program in the US, if the Allies were headed up by a Brit. Of course all this is just idle speculation... That's what keeps it fun! I think the code breaking used in the anti-sub effort came much later when it was certain America would join the British War effort. It's my understanding that the code breaking was most useful in the air war of the Battle of Britain. But we may never really know. -B Yeah, I like spy stories as much as anyone, but I can't often tell the BS from the truth or even what is being left out. Frank Dresser |
Mike Knudsen wrote:
It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew the German air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not warn any civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the Krauts that we were reading their mail. So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K. It may be "a pretty well known story", but it may also be an urban legend". There are indications each way, and I seem to recall having seen it exposed as an urban legend. -- "We have captured lightning and used it to teach sand how to think." |
In message , Mike Andrews
writes Mike Knudsen wrote: It's a pretty well known story (maybe even true) that the Brits knew the German air raid was coming to Coventry (by breaking the code and/or watching the bombers on radar), several hours in advance, but deliberately did not warn any civil defense or firefighters in Coventry, for fear of tipping the Krauts that we were reading their mail. So apparently Churchill was willing to sacrifce Brit lives, and not jsut US sailors, to hide the code breaking. --Mike K. It may be "a pretty well known story", but it may also be an urban legend". There are indications each way, and I seem to recall having seen it exposed as an urban legend. It is an urban legend. RV Jones explained that a mistake was made in the measurement of the modulation frequency on the beams (1500 c/s instead of 2000 c/s IIRC). So that the modulation frequency on the jammers was set incorrectly. The airborne equipment used very sharp filters so that the jammers were not audible. So Coventry was bombed. Mike -- M.J.Powell |
In message , Biz WDØHCO
writes Snip I'll also mention code breaking in the anti-sub war. hmmm ok - where should I start? We are of course talking about the British breaking the codes being sent and received by German Enigma Code machines. Brits are proud of saying their collection of eccentric mathematics wizards and puzzle solving misfits broke the code in something like 3 or 4 weeks. I haven't. Some messages were never broken. Some were read immediately. What is glossed over is that the front line German Radio OPs were somewhat lazy and seldom if ever changed the code wheels on the machine. The German high command believed their code machine unbreakable but even so still changed the code wheels on a weekly basis for high level comms. Any decent book on code-breaking will relate this point. I've never known it being 'glossed-over'. Most of the breaking depended on mistakes, or duplication, or repeats of messages without changing the wheel positions. The Luftwaffe was very lax on this point, using the same start position for several messages. They believed even if front line comms could be broken - they were of little strategic value to the enemy. Of course we now know, if you broken low level comms you can follow the messages up the chain and stand a good chance of breaking that code if you know what is in the message being sent. The Bits did this and now had access to most of the Germany Armed Forces comms. Now what to do with it? What now follows is my own speculation - much of the story still remains classified to this day. I can only go back and look at the historical facts and come up with some fairly logical deductions - ..in other words - I'm guessing... (1) Clearly - Churchill could have told the Americans early on - He choose not to do this until much later. I haven't got the question so can't comment on this point. (2) Britan could not directly go after subs and ships. To do so would tip the Germans that the code was broken and force them to change their wheels on a daily (or hourly) basis. Remember it took 3 weeks (and I suspect much more) to break each code. So even though they had a stolen Enigma and the tools to break the code - it would have been of little use if the code was changed daily. The code was changed by the Kreigsmarine daily, sometimes every three hours. (3) America at the time was isolationist. The Brits saw what a single Jap Attack at Pearl Harbor had done. Almost overnight, America was at war - with Japan. Most Americans wanted to fight the Japs only - they had no beef with Germany. (4) The Lend-Lease convoys were US Merchant Ships carrying U.S. War Material protected by the U.S. Navy Ships manned by US Sailors. Err... Some were. The US government's policy was even-handed. Pay for it and collect it. Most convoy ships were European at the start. Only later, after 11th Dec 41, and when the US started building Liberty ships in huge quantities, did the ratio change. The US and Canadian Navy escorted the convoys eastwards to about half-way when they handed over to the RN. Before 11th Dec '41 the USN provided some escort vessels, ie 'Reuben James', which on occassion did engage the U-boats. The Brits knew the exact locations of German subs out to sink the convoys but kept quiet. Rubbish. We wouldn't have lost a single ship if that was so. I can remember the 9.00 BBC news, each evening, starting "The Admiralty regrets to announce the loss of the following ships...." then followed a list of from 2 to 20 ships. It was harrowing. The loss of some shipping and American lives would keep the United States focused and involved with the war in Europe. Bollox. (5) As you can imagine - the Americans were livid when finally told. Not so much for the loss of American life but for the fact they were so well played by Churchill. If only. (6) This and the massive defeat ("Heroic Retreat" as the Brits tell it) at Dunkirk were probably the two major factors in selecting an American as Supreme Allied Commander. Our 'Heroic Defeat' matches your Philipines, I suppose. The RAF lost 200+ fighters defending Dunkirk. Eisenhower for the invasion and afterwards. Which involved at least 60% Brit and Commonwealth troops on the first day. Of course all this is just idle speculation... You should have put that in capitals , and underlined it. I think the code breaking used in the anti-sub effort came much later when it was certain America would join the British War effort. Do you think we wouldn't have done it to save our own ships? But we may never really know. -B We know a lot more than you have written. Mike -- M.J.Powell |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:54 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com