AR88s and PCBs
 

I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any stronger
than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the oil filled
capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is weeping like
a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern equivalents
inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If so, how to
safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without wiping out much
of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri

AR88s and PCBs
 

Bri wrote:
I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any stronger
than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the oil filled
capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is weeping like
a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern equivalents
inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If so, how to
safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without wiping out much
of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri


There is great disparity between opinions on the toxicity of PCBs, from
'put it on your cornflakes' to 'satans death cum'. A lot of it comes
from the fact that there are lots of different kinds and that related
contaminants such as Dioxin are often present, and also from the fact
that a lot of the claimed toxicity can take decades to show itself (PCBs
and the like are very fat soluble and stable and just sit in your body
for years) as it takes the form of endocrine disruption. Its a minefield
of opinion, trod it in depth a couple of years back

Nope, know **** all about transformers - ah, you mean audio output.
I've always assumed the same - match if possible, go over and you lose
volume but its ok and never go under or its boomboom or at least fryfry.



--
Get your free morse ringtone at http://www.planetofnoise.com

AR88s and PCBs
 

Why would you want to replace the oil capacitors anyways?

They are still good. They have lasted 60 years and they will undoubtedly
outlast us both.

Leave it for the next generation who will neither be able to read or write
anyways.



"Bri" wrote in message
...
I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any stronger
than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the oil
filled capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern
equivalents inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If
so, how to safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without
wiping out much of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri

AR88s and PCBs
 

"Dday" wrote in message
...
Why would you want to replace the oil capacitors anyways?

They are still good. They have lasted 60 years and they will undoubtedly
outlast us both.

Leave it for the next generation who will neither be able to read or write
anyways.




The oil filled bathtub caps in surplus military gear are notorious for
being electrically leaky. Still a paper cap, regardless of the type
of oil.

Pete

AR88s and PCBs
 

"Dday" wrote

Why would you want to replace the oil capacitors anyways?

They are still good. They have lasted 60 years and they will undoubtedly
outlast us both.



****Reread the OP original posting," I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby". They are obviously NOT good.

Brian Goldsmith.

AR88s and PCBs
 

Because the oil has leaked everywhere...



"Brian Goldsmith" wrote in message
...

"Dday" wrote

Why would you want to replace the oil capacitors anyways?

They are still good. They have lasted 60 years and they will undoubtedly
outlast us both.



****Reread the OP original posting," I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby". They are obviously NOT good.

Brian Goldsmith.

AR88s and PCBs
 

Bri wrote:
Because the oil has leaked everywhere...



"Brian Goldsmith" wrote in message
...

"Dday" wrote

Why would you want to replace the oil capacitors anyways?

They are still good. They have lasted 60 years and they will undoubtedly
outlast us both.



****Reread the OP original posting," I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby". They are obviously NOT good.

Brian Goldsmith.

clean them up, with naptha, replace the lost oil (mineral oil is fine),
and replace the damaged rubber seals with a good quality silicone sealant,
and the capacitor will go another generation...assuming that it didn't
already arc over.

Oil capacitors have paper as part of the dielectric, but the paper isn't
where the characteristics of the capacitor come from, it is the oil.
The paper is just a convenient separator for the plates.

-Chuck

AR88s and PCBs
 

Thanks for that Chuck.

However it still leaves the problem of potential PCB contamination: did
they, or did they not use PCB's? If it is just mineral oil then there is no
problem, I'll either refill, or more likely remove and replace with modern
capacitors inside the can. It's the potential for PCB poisoning that
concerns me most at the moment.

Bri


"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
Bri wrote:
Because the oil has leaked everywhere...



"Brian Goldsmith" wrote in message
...

"Dday" wrote

Why would you want to replace the oil capacitors anyways?

They are still good. They have lasted 60 years and they will undoubtedly
outlast us both.



****Reread the OP original posting," I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby". They are obviously NOT good.

Brian Goldsmith.

clean them up, with naptha, replace the lost oil (mineral oil is fine),
and replace the damaged rubber seals with a good quality silicone sealant,
and the capacitor will go another generation...assuming that it didn't
already arc over.

Oil capacitors have paper as part of the dielectric, but the paper isn't
where the characteristics of the capacitor come from, it is the oil.
The paper is just a convenient separator for the plates.

-Chuck

AR88s and PCBs
 

Bri wrote:
I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any stronger
than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the oil filled
capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is weeping like
a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern equivalents
inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If so, how to
safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without wiping out much
of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri



Here are a couple of kitchen-level tests for PCB's:

http://www.tredi.co.nz/html/html/identify.htm



--
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AR88s and PCBs
 

Bri wrote:

However it still leaves the problem of potential PCB contamination: did
they, or did they not use PCB's? If it is just mineral oil then there is no
problem, I'll either refill, or more likely remove and replace with modern
capacitors inside the can. It's the potential for PCB poisoning that
concerns me most at the moment.

If it says SAFETY or PYRANOL on it, it's got PCBs. When PCBs were popular,
they were considered such a wonderful thing that manufacturers would brag
about them on the case as using SAFETY OIL.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

AR88s and PCBs
 

PCBs are one of the most dangerous substances ever created. Oil-filled
capacitors containing PCB were made as early as the 1930s. The AR88 was a
wartime set, more likely than consumer radios to contain oil-filled
capacitors.

There is no "safe level" of exposure to PCBs, and they do not break down in
the environment. I would not risk cleaning out the old cans and putting new
capacitors into them. Why not contact your local hazardous waste agency and
find out how you can safely (and legally) dispose of the capacitors?

This web article -- I'm sure you can find many others -- gives some history
about PCBs and their health effects.

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/monsanto2a_pcb_pcbs.html

Just my $0.02.

Phil Nelson

"Bri" wrote in message
...
I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any stronger
than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the oil
filled capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern
equivalents inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If
so, how to safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without
wiping out much of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri

AR88s and PCBs
 

Hi Phil.

Thanks for that, you highlight my dilemma well. I don't think many people
realise that PCB's have been around for as long as they have. I only became
aware of the possibility when I came across a query by P Bertini. The
simple tests suggested by AndyB above look promising in this regard.

B



"Phil Nelson" wrote in message
...
PCBs are one of the most dangerous substances ever created. Oil-filled
capacitors containing PCB were made as early as the 1930s. The AR88 was a
wartime set, more likely than consumer radios to contain oil-filled
capacitors.

There is no "safe level" of exposure to PCBs, and they do not break down
in the environment. I would not risk cleaning out the old cans and putting
new capacitors into them. Why not contact your local hazardous waste
agency and find out how you can safely (and legally) dispose of the
capacitors?

This web article -- I'm sure you can find many others -- gives some
history about PCBs and their health effects.

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/monsanto2a_pcb_pcbs.html

Just my $0.02.

Phil Nelson

"Bri" wrote in message
...
I noticed some concern as to the possibility (let's not put it any
stronger than that) of PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) being used in the
oil filled capacitors of RCA AR88's. I have 2 such sets, one of which is
weeping like a baby. I intend to replace the old capacitors with modern
equivalents inside the old cans. Is it really likely to be PCB fluid? If
so, how to safely drain, dispose and clean up the dripped fluid without
wiping out much of Western Europe (or at least myself).

Bri

AR88s and PCBs
 

Phil Nelson wrote:
PCBs are one of the most dangerous substances ever created. Oil-filled
capacitors containing PCB were made as early as the 1930s. The AR88 was a
wartime set, more likely than consumer radios to contain oil-filled
capacitors.

There is no "safe level" of exposure to PCBs, and they do not break down in
the environment. I would not risk cleaning out the old cans and putting new
capacitors into them. Why not contact your local hazardous waste agency and
find out how you can safely (and legally) dispose of the capacitors?

This web article -- I'm sure you can find many others -- gives some history
about PCBs and their health effects.

http://www.foxriverwatch.com/monsanto2a_pcb_pcbs.html

It's a very interesting paper, it appears to have been written mostly
to scare, and to hopefully encourage one to become an environmental activist.

However, every single point you mention above about the dangers is counter to
what is actually said in the article: it does biodegrade, it takes fairly
large exposure to cause chloroacne, or liver problems...

Did you actually read the article?

-Chuck

AR88s and PCBs
 

Chuck Harris wrote:
It's a very interesting paper, it appears to have been written mostly
to scare, and to hopefully encourage one to become an environmental activist.

However, every single point you mention above about the dangers is counter to
what is actually said in the article: it does biodegrade, it takes fairly
large exposure to cause chloroacne, or liver problems...

Did you actually read the article?

I am told that the real problem with PCBs is that they degrade into some
very hazardous things when burned. Although, of course, they don't burn
easily, which was the whole point of using them.

I used to wade knee-deep into tanks of the stuff, and slather it all over
transformer windings with bare hands. It turns out this is probably a bad
thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

AR88s and PCBs
 

"Bri" wrote in message
...
Hi Phil.

Thanks for that, you highlight my dilemma well. I don't think many people
realise that PCB's have been around for as long as they have. I only
became
aware of the possibility when I came across a query by P Bertini. The
simple tests suggested by AndyB above look promising in this regard.

B


Bri

Check this website by EA5 amateur:

http://www.jvgavila.com/ar88_2.htm

He claimed the capacitors had PCB dielectric, something I've never
been able to confirm. A few other restorers have claimed that the
original metal capacitors were leaky enough to cause AGC and
other sensitivity problems on their AR-88x receivers. I haven't
worked on or restored mine as of yet, so I am neutral on the whole
issue.

Pete

AR88s and PCBs
 

I tackled PCB, Dioxin and Furan toxicity in some depth a while back
(bear in mind there are orders of magnitude difference of alleged
toxicity between these closely related and often co-present
compounds/contaminants, and again in the different sub-types of the
compounds, the levels of which can only be assessed with specialist
testing) and what I found was that industry will tell you they are
low-grade toxicity and cite a ton of scientific study and
environmentalists will tell you they are the ultimate toxin and cite an
equal amount of scientific study.

I certainly wouldn't disregard material just because its blatantly out
to scaremonger. What about all the anti-tobacco ads telling you smoking
gives you cancer - are they spinning BS just because they're out to
scare you?

Acute poisoning (enough to cause chloracne for example) means taking on
a *gargantuan* dose of these types of compounds compared with what is
reckoned to be a 'tolerable daily intake' (TDI), and the levels that
cause concern to professional health bodies like the World Health
Organisation are vanishingly small (single figure picograms) and it is
carcinogenic, teratogenic (birth defects) and immune disorders far down
the line (even in future generations who inherit damaged genes) that
they are worried about, not acute exposure toxicity.

Its difficult getting a decent professional opinion by looking at
industry or environmentalist sourced material, as in my experience they
are equally biased, but I think it is reasonable to accept the view of
a body like the W.H.O, that class Dioxin like PCB's as potentially very
dangerous substances (and known carcinogens) and impose such strict
limits on human exposure.

My area of experience was with dealing with teensy-weensy amounts of
this stuff. The difference in amounts from a waste incinerator (and
diffused) per year and what is *potentially* contained in a few
capacitors is like comparing a hand-grenade to a small nuke in terms of
concentration and yield. They could contain millions of maximum
permissible lifetime doses.

PCB's and the like do biodegrade but can take years to do so, all the
while hanging around in your fatty tissues, doing whatever it is they
are doing (or not doing, depending on your affiliations).

Even taking the middle ground between the industry view and
environmentalist view, the *possible* risks would put me off touching
the stuff or taking any risks with it at all, but thats my personal
opinion.

AR88s and PCBs
 

If it's such harmless stuff, why has it been banned in the US since 1977?
http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pcb/

To return to his original point -- why would you want to take a risk, if you
can easily and cheaply avoid it?

If you're concerned about authentic appearance, there were postwar metal
bathtub style capacitors which are actually paper caps, not oil filled. I
found some in my Scott Labs 800B, for instance. Get a junker 800B chassis
and scavenge the bathtub cases to restuff, if they look right and that suits
you. You can also buy new or NOS style bathtub caps in a variety of values
and case styles.

Alternatively, you can puncture the old case and drink what's inside, for
all I care. It's a free country :-)

Go in peace,

Phil Nelson

AR88s and PCBs
 

I used to wade knee-deep into tanks of the stuff, and slather it all over
transformer windings with bare hands. It turns out this is probably a bad
thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet.

I smoked cigarettes for over 20 years, then quit. It turns out this is
probably a bad thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet . . . .

Best wishes,

Phil "famous last words" Nelson

AR88s and PCBs
 

AR88s and PCBs
 

Well, something of a hornet's nest here - pleased you are all enjoying the
debate.

My 'conclusion' thus far:

1) No one actually knows if the capacitors in question contain PCB's
2) If they do, they may or may not be hazardous even in small amounts

3) Therefo

i) I will test the fluid as described in posts
ii) I will treat them as hazardous material in the meantime


Now where did I put my rubber suit?

Bri





"Phil Nelson" wrote in message
...
If it's such harmless stuff, why has it been banned in the US since 1977?
http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pcb/

To return to his original point -- why would you want to take a risk, if
you can easily and cheaply avoid it?

If you're concerned about authentic appearance, there were postwar metal
bathtub style capacitors which are actually paper caps, not oil filled. I
found some in my Scott Labs 800B, for instance. Get a junker 800B chassis
and scavenge the bathtub cases to restuff, if they look right and that
suits you. You can also buy new or NOS style bathtub caps in a variety of
values and case styles.

Alternatively, you can puncture the old case and drink what's inside, for
all I care. It's a free country :-)

Go in peace,

Phil Nelson

AR88s and PCBs
 

Well, something of a hornets' nest here - pleased you are all enjoying the
debate.

My 'conclusion' thus far:

1) No one actually knows if the capacitors in question contain PCB's
2) If they do, they may or may not be hazardous even in small amounts

3) Therefo

i) I will test the fluid as described in posts
ii) I will treat them as hazardous material in the meantime


Now where did I put my rubber suit?

Bri

AR88s and PCBs
 

Bri wrote:
Well, something of a hornet's nest here - pleased you are all enjoying the
debate.

My 'conclusion' thus far:

1) No one actually knows if the capacitors in question contain PCB's
2) If they do, they may or may not be hazardous even in small amounts

3) Therefo

i) I will test the fluid as described in posts
ii) I will treat them as hazardous material in the meantime


Now where did I put my rubber suit?

Bri

Bri,

The one part of the discussion that you should note, is that in industry,
folks were literally bathing in the stuff, (occasionally) with no problem.
We have several of those folks here on the group, and they have related their
personal experience.

Every single person that handled carbon and mimeograph paper in the 1930's
through 1970 came into contact with more PCB on each sheet than you will find
in the leakage around your capacitors. PCB was used to keep the ink soft.
Same with stamp pads, TTY ribbons, and single use carbon ribbons. I can vividly
remember the smell of the stuff on those products. Did we have a rash (sic humour)
of secretarial folks with chloroacne, and liver disease?

Other factory folks were exposed to it daily, ate lunch with hands that had it on
them, smoked cigarettes from fingers covered with it, and drank from wells that
were contaminated with the stuff, surprise! some of them showed
some symptoms, such as chloroacne and liver difficulties.

Still other folks got exposed unintentionally, through food made in mills that
accidentally leaked the stuff into the food, and wells that were contaminated by
extreme factory dumping, or ate fish from rivers that were subject to millions
of gallons of factory dumping, and they too showed symptoms.

If you take reasonable precautions to keep the stuff off of your skin, and
out of your mouth, you will not be harmed. Even if you don't, at those small
amounts, it is very doubtful that you will ever show any symptoms.

Now as to disposal: The last time I brought that subject up with the hazardous
chemical group at our local landfill, they were quoting something like $100 for
a single motor run capacitor (that may, or may not have contained PCB).

Better to sell your old caps to the audio/guitar guys on ebay ;-)

-Chuck

AR88s and PCBs
 

Phil Nelson wrote:
I used to wade knee-deep into tanks of the stuff, and slather it all over
transformer windings with bare hands. It turns out this is probably a bad
thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet.

I smoked cigarettes for over 20 years, then quit. It turns out this is
probably a bad thing, but I haven't noticed any problems yet . . . .

Yes, probably a good comparison, I think.

And I remember Lucky Strikes as being advertised as a health product, too,
just as PCB oil was advertised as a safety product. "Reach for a Lucky
instead of dessert" or something like that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

AR88s and PCBs
 

Chuck Harris wrote:


The one part of the discussion that you should note, is that in industry,
folks were literally bathing in the stuff, (occasionally) with no problem.
We have several of those folks here on the group, and they have related
their
personal experience.


Thats a bit like the "My grandad smoked 80 a day all his life and lived
to a 101" chestnut. Is this proof that smoking doesn't give you cancer
or that the cancer statistics are wrong?

Personal experience or anecdotal evidence means very little when dealing
with long term toxicity (unless the illness is specifically associated
with a given exposure, like asbestos and mesothilioma). It is medical
statistics of a large, controled group that shed any truth to a matter
such as this. Unfortunately, these are hard to come by because of the
long term nature of PCB toxicity in a society literally bathed in
chemical contaminants and highly mobile.

Even closely monitored exposures, like the Seveso incident in Italy are
inconclusive (I once spoke to the head of toxicology for the UKs
Chemical Response Unit who reckoned that no-one found any ill effect
from that incident, but she was defending a hazardous waste site at the
time.)


If you take reasonable precautions to keep the stuff off of your
skin, and
out of your mouth, you will not be harmed. Even if you don't, at those
small
amounts, it is very doubtful that you will ever show any symptoms.


'Symptoms' are a sign of acute poisoning, obviously to be avoided, but
the health authorities of EVERY developed country would consider someone
with levels of PCBs in thier bodies millions of times less than that
needed to cause 'symptoms' as being over the limit of reccomended
exposure and at possible risk.

Having been exposed to whopping doses doesn't mean you will be
comparitively more ill than someone with a lot less inside them in the
long term - the mechanisims of toxicity of PCBs are not the same as
mercury or arsenic, where the more you have, the sicker you are. The
endocrine system of the body works with tiny amounts of hormones and
messenger chemicals, and its having these messed with that is the real
worry (especially in developing children), and we DO know that PCB's and
the like do just this.

For instance, there is a disorder of the womb that is rampant today
(can't remember the name right now) that was extremely rare before the
invention of PCB's. There can never be a 'smoking gun' leading to the
prescence of all pervasive PCB's in the environment as being the cause
of this (for a number of reasons), but it is EXACTLY the type of illness
predicted to be caused by long term PCB body burden and endocrine
disruption.

The World Health Organisation place a TDI of 1-4 picograms (a picogram
being a *trillionth* of a gram) on Dioxin-like PCB's. That is an
incredibly small amount Chuck, and when dealing with large amounts of
this stuff (meaning any visible amount) you could easily get
comparitively huge doses inside you without noticing, and you can't in
all honesty state with confidence that 'you will not be harmed' by these
amounts. Nobody knows for sure, but there is certainly enough evidence
and (non-hysterical) concern around to be more than cautious.

Andy

Get your free morse ringtone at http://www.planetofnoise.com

AR88s and PCBs
 

AndyB wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote:
....
We have several of those folks here on the group, and they have
related their
personal experience.


Thats a bit like the "My grandad smoked 80 a day all his life and lived
to a 101" chestnut. Is this proof that smoking doesn't give you cancer
or that the cancer statistics are wrong?

Smoking and cancer are a funny (as in peculiar) example to pull out as a
comparison to PCB exposure. First, the anti smoking groups pretend that
no one ever got lung cancer without smoking. The truth is more like as
many people get it with smoking as get it without. The cancer connection
is difficult. The heart disease and emphasema associations are much easier
to prove... and I am not now, nor have I ever been a smoker.

Second, smoking is a great act of self deception. People who smoke go out
of their way to become heavily exposed to tobacco smoke. It doesn't seem
to me that it would be all that common for people to intentionally ingest
PCB's.

Being in the presence of PCB is not the same as being exposed to PCB, or
ingesting PCB.

Personal experience or anecdotal evidence means very little when dealing
with long term toxicity (unless the illness is specifically associated
with a given exposure, like asbestos and mesothilioma). It is medical
statistics of a large, controled group that shed any truth to a matter
such as this. Unfortunately, these are hard to come by because of the
long term nature of PCB toxicity in a society literally bathed in
chemical contaminants and highly mobile.

There a couple of ways of looking at that. The one I tend towards is
the connection can't be found because it doesn't actually exist for such
small levels of exposure.

Even closely monitored exposures, like the Seveso incident in Italy are
inconclusive (I once spoke to the head of toxicology for the UKs
Chemical Response Unit who reckoned that no-one found any ill effect
from that incident, but she was defending a hazardous waste site at the
time.)

Again, this is probably because the connection doesn't exist for small
levels of exposure.

....


The World Health Organisation place a TDI of 1-4 picograms (a picogram
being a *trillionth* of a gram) on Dioxin-like PCB's.

Dioxin and PCB's aren't the same thing. The WHO TDI is a limit for *ingested*
amounts of PCB on a *continual* (eg. daily) basis, not an extremely
infrequent, accidental skin exposure to a very small quantity (such as might
happen if one touches a leaky PCB coated capacitor). You cannot legitimately
infer that because PCB has a 1-4 picogram TDI, that occasional skin
exposure to a 1-4 picogram sample is harmful.

No one is suggesting that the PCB be intentionally ingested over a long term.
And no one is suggesting that you make a habit of exposing yourself to PCB.

We are all going to die of something. And yet with all of our exposure to
toxic chemical coctails, heavy metals, and radiation, quality of life, and
life expectancy continues to rise...(even accounting for the extreme lack
of childhood deaths due to the success of vaccines on the usual childhood
diseases.)

Reasoned caution is good, but hysteria isn't all that useful in cases like
this.

-Chuck

AR88s and PCBs
 

I wasn't directly relating PCB exposure to smoking, just the practice
of citing anecdotal evidence like 'it never did me/him any harm' as
anything meaningful or to suggest that something isn't harmful. Your
quote on lung cancer levels being the same with/without smoking is crap
though - where did you get THAT from, the Marlboro good health guide?

I know Dioxins and PCB's are not the same, but they are often present
together - as I said, only specialist testing will tell you the actual
I-TEQ (overall dioxin-like toxicity) of anything PCB-like.

You cannot legitimately
infer that because PCB has a 1-4 picogram TDI, that occasional skin
exposure to a 1-4 picogram sample is harmful.

I wasn't infering that at all, but the amounts involved in even the
slightest contact with *actual* PCB fluid (such as getting enough on
you to actually see, say a fingertip smear) would involve amounts
millions (possibly billions) of times greater than levels we are
exposed to in the environment. Lots of studies show that PCBs are
rapidly absorbed into the skin, so its quite possible to absorb doses
that would equal a lifetimes normal exposure just by touching a 'leaky
PCB coated capacitor' with bare hands.

Being in the presence of PCB is not the same as being exposed to PCB, or ingesting PCB.

Wasn't aware I said it was, though you shouldn't discount dust vectors.


Reasoned caution is good, but hysteria isn't all that useful in cases like
this.

If you look at what I'm saying and compare it to the typical
environmentalist view you'll find its a million miles away from being
hysterical. Most environmentalists would class my current views as
downright evil.
I won't say what they'd call you.

What about you Chuck - I'm interested to know where your views on the
subject come from. Have you physically worked a lot with PCB's or come
from a healthcare/medical background? Done lab work with hazardous
chemicals? Why do you trust one view (not very dangerous) over the
other (very dangerous). Just hate tree huggers?

Andy

AR88s and PCBs
 

AR88s and PCBs
 

I also dislike hysterical rhetoric for political or monetary gain, but
it cuts both ways. I've found that the worst evironmentalists are no
more hysterical than industry PR is in reverse (completely playing down
dangers of its products or byproducts).

I hate people that create terror in an attempt to gain political
power. The anti DDT, anti nuke, anti Freon, anti lead, anti mercury,
anti gun, anti any chemical man knows how to make group fits this
pattern.

I'm sensing a lot of hate there Chuck - maybe you should go and hug
your trees ;)

Do I take it that you also think DDT, nukes, lead, mercury and guns are
not as bad as most people make out or are 'fairly harmless'?

AR88s and PCBs
 

AR88s and PCBs
 

Chuck Harris wrote:


I am very fond of the environment. Probably much more so than you. I long
ago put my money where my mouth is. I am not at all fond of those that
call
themselves environmentalists.

My contribution to this thread has long since past the point of being a
reasonable side tracking. This is my last posting on this subject...
for now.

-Chuck

Well since you're bailing I feel safe in agreeing with you because I
neither want to belabour an argument in whats good can be bad or vice versa.

But...

I worked a while in NE Oklahoma. Asbestos mines, lead mines. Pretty
much under the radar of the environmentalists who seem to need someplace
snazzier than Picher, Oklahoma to drive home their point.

I found the local conditions appalling. Maybe because I was constantly
reminded about don't drink the water...or inferences that "hell, thats
the way those crazy Okies are". I worked in direct contact with people
and it seemed as though EVERYBODY had a mentally defective family member
hidden away in a back room and there was certainly no shortage of
borderline cases outside and on the street. Anybody from outside would
notice it.

I'm 100% against the Kerry-camp type of "sky is falling" kneejerk
reaction to anything that isn't mountain spring water (imported from
France) so I'm not speaking from that context.

It would seem to me, an eternal Devil's Advocate, that there are indeed
issues with 'public level toxicity' that get totally overshadowed by
both extreme camps. The guy that puts on a hazmat suit to work on his
boatanchor or the politician that claims that they are producing honey
if the industry benefits his district. Both come off as fanatics
deflecting concern from the real world aspects.

So yeah, these scenarios really do exist but not because an old radio is
leaking fluids. If you want to save the earth you can start by saving
Picher, Oklahoma and forget about the miniscule implications of your
weenie little capacitors.

-Bill

AR88s and PCBs
 

Really interesting to hear your views on all this and thanks for taking
the time to express them (I don't think you're an environmental devil at
all by the way). Your trees sound lovely, truly jealous. Spent a while
in British Columbia not long back, everything seemed comparitively dead
when I left there....but this is all way OT now, so thanks again.

Andy

Bill wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote:


I am very fond of the environment. Probably much more so than you. I
long
ago put my money where my mouth is. I am not at all fond of those
that call
themselves environmentalists.

My contribution to this thread has long since past the point of being a
reasonable side tracking. This is my last posting on this subject...
for now.

-Chuck

Well since you're bailing I feel safe in agreeing with you because I
neither want to belabour an argument in whats good can be bad or vice
versa.

But...

I worked a while in NE Oklahoma. Asbestos mines, lead mines. Pretty
much under the radar of the environmentalists who seem to need someplace
snazzier than Picher, Oklahoma to drive home their point.

I found the local conditions appalling. Maybe because I was constantly
reminded about don't drink the water...or inferences that "hell, thats
the way those crazy Okies are". I worked in direct contact with people
and it seemed as though EVERYBODY had a mentally defective family member
hidden away in a back room and there was certainly no shortage of
borderline cases outside and on the street. Anybody from outside would
notice it.

I'm 100% against the Kerry-camp type of "sky is falling" kneejerk
reaction to anything that isn't mountain spring water (imported from
France) so I'm not speaking from that context.

It would seem to me, an eternal Devil's Advocate, that there are indeed
issues with 'public level toxicity' that get totally overshadowed by
both extreme camps. The guy that puts on a hazmat suit to work on his
boatanchor or the politician that claims that they are producing honey
if the industry benefits his district. Both come off as fanatics
deflecting concern from the real world aspects.

So yeah, these scenarios really do exist but not because an old radio is
leaking fluids. If you want to save the earth you can start by saving
Picher, Oklahoma and forget about the miniscule implications of your
weenie little capacitors.

-Bill


--
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