WWVA to Ohio - how?
 

Among a HUGE batch of major-change and new-station applications recently
released by the FCC is the application of WWVA-1170 (Wheeling, WV) to
move to Stow, Ohio.

Grant of said application would require that something happen to
WCUE-1150 in Cuyahoga Falls. Power reductions and/or pattern changes
wouldn't cut it, as Stow and Cuyahoga Falls *border on each other* - you
couldn't obtain a pattern tight enough to provide city-grade throughout
Stow without leaking enough into Cuyahoga Falls to interfere. And
vice-versa.

I see no applications from WCUE in the database. In any case, I thought
the FCC summarily dismissed contingent applications? (applications
whose grant is contingent on the grant of some other application) I.e.,
WWVA's application would *have* to be dismissed unless WCUE is first
granted a frequency change or move to a new city-of-license.

On the other hand, I'm sure the engineering study for WWVA wasn't cheap
- and Clear Channel isn't known for wasting money filing impossible
technical changes. Obviously they've found *some* way they expect to
get this change through.

I wonder if anyone knows *how*?
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
Among a HUGE batch of major-change and new-station applications recently
released by the FCC is the application of WWVA-1170 (Wheeling, WV) to
move to Stow, Ohio.

Grant of said application would require that something happen to
WCUE-1150 in Cuyahoga Falls. Power reductions and/or pattern changes
wouldn't cut it, as Stow and Cuyahoga Falls *border on each other* - you
couldn't obtain a pattern tight enough to provide city-grade throughout
Stow without leaking enough into Cuyahoga Falls to interfere. And
vice-versa.

I see no applications from WCUE in the database. In any case, I thought
the FCC summarily dismissed contingent applications? (applications
whose grant is contingent on the grant of some other application) I.e.,
WWVA's application would *have* to be dismissed unless WCUE is first
granted a frequency change or move to a new city-of-license.

Perhaps it's not Stow, but Steubenville. Wheeling is across the river from
Steubenville, pretty much, but is nowhere near Stow, and I not only can't
see the FCC allowing 1170 and 1150 to be lit up in the same market, I can't
see the FCC allowing Clear Channel to remove an operational station from
one market to put it into another.

On the other hand, I'm sure the engineering study for WWVA wasn't cheap
- and Clear Channel isn't known for wasting money filing impossible
technical changes. Obviously they've found *some* way they expect to
get this change through.

I want to know what the point is. What are they going to put there? Someone
else owns the news-talker in Akron, they own ESPN 1350; Akron's a small market.
How many AMs do they expect the area to be able to support? There are a few
minor ones like WCUE in addition to 1350 and 1590 already.

It's my personal opinion that someone at Clear Channel needs to remove the
crack pipe from their anal cavity. ;)

--
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Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
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"Doug Smith W9WI" wrote in message
...
Among a HUGE batch of major-change and new-station applications recently
released by the FCC is the application of WWVA-1170 (Wheeling, WV) to
move to Stow, Ohio.

Grant of said application would require that something happen to
WCUE-1150 in Cuyahoga Falls. Power reductions and/or pattern changes
wouldn't cut it, as Stow and Cuyahoga Falls *border on each other* - you
couldn't obtain a pattern tight enough to provide city-grade throughout
Stow without leaking enough into Cuyahoga Falls to interfere. And
vice-versa.

The proposed WWVA xmtr location is 20.6 miles NW of the WCUE xmtr location.
The WWVA xmtr is off the peak of the WCUE 6-tower pencil beam. The way I
read the rules the stations must have no more the 2 mV/m at the other's
25 mV/m contour and vv.

WWVA's proposed transmitter location and all other AM stations' are in the
latest AMSTNS data reflected in the M-FILES.ZIP available from my Web site
http://users.erols.com/rcarpen This data will allow you to plot the xmtr
locations on any version of DeLorme Street Atlas. From my site you can link
to Vehorn's web site to get the full AMSTNS info, or get just the patterns
from www.fccinfo.com .

None of which addresses your point about WWVA having COL-grade coverage at
Stow.
WWVA's proposed pattern is very broad, and not down very far toward Cuyahoga
Falls.
(or Stow). WCUE must not have a lot of sig at Stow because of its VERY
tight
pattern. The outdated info I have lists the Stow ZIP code as having a
population
of a bit over 30,000, but that includes a lot more than just Stow. Likewise
my
old population data shows just 32,000 for the Cuyahoga Falls ZIP. Could it
be
that neither of these towns has more than 10,000 in its INCORPORATED area -
and may thus require only 2 mV/m signal. Cuyahoga Falls is definitely in a
minor
lobe of WCUE's day signal. There may be an agreement to mutually accept
some
interference over small areas outside their COLs.

I can't imagine that WCUE is worth very much - could there be an agreement
to
purchase and take dark not reflected in the WWVA application?

I see no applications from WCUE in the database. In any case, I thought
the FCC summarily dismissed contingent applications? (applications
whose grant is contingent on the grant of some other application) I.e.,
WWVA's application would *have* to be dismissed unless WCUE is first
granted a frequency change or move to a new city-of-license.

On the other hand, I'm sure the engineering study for WWVA wasn't cheap
- and Clear Channel isn't known for wasting money filing impossible
technical changes. Obviously they've found *some* way they expect to
get this change through.

See above.

Also note that there is an application by WRTK for 1180 days from WABQ's
site in the NE suburbs of Cleveland.

bob c.

R J Carpenter wrote:
None of which addresses your point about WWVA having COL-grade coverage at
Stow.
WWVA's proposed pattern is very broad, and not down very far toward Cuyahoga
Falls.
(or Stow). WCUE must not have a lot of sig at Stow because of its VERY
tight
pattern. The outdated info I have lists the Stow ZIP code as having a
population
of a bit over 30,000, but that includes a lot more than just Stow. Likewise
my
old population data shows just 32,000 for the Cuyahoga Falls ZIP. Could it
be
that neither of these towns has more than 10,000 in its INCORPORATED area -
and may thus require only 2 mV/m signal. Cuyahoga Falls is definitely in a
minor
lobe of WCUE's day signal.

Comments from Clevelanders on another list indicate the incorporated
areas of the two towns border on each other. (Steven S., do you know if
this is true?)

The Census Bureau's map page says the 1990 population of Stow was 27,702
and of Cuyahoga Falls 48,950. (each spread across multiple ZIP codes)
I'd think that would mean the incorporated area but could be wrong.

I guess if they only need 2mV/m then it works out from WCUE's standpoint.

I can't imagine that WCUE is worth very much - could there be an agreement
to
purchase and take dark not reflected in the WWVA application?

My bet is this is what's going on. Maybe CC will hand over one of their
smaller Cleveland/Akron-area AMs in return?

Also note that there is an application by WRTK for 1180 days from WABQ's
site in the NE suburbs of Cleveland.

Yep, there are nearly 200 other applications for major changes. WWVA's
is the only one involving a 50,000-watt station, but there are some
other big ones, sometimes involving moves to different markets. For
example, KBLU-560 Yuma, Arizona to Nellis AFB (Las Vegas), Nevada. Or
WCSJ-1550 (Morris, Illinois) to Amado, Arizona on 670...

There's also a pile of applications for completely new stations. Some
of them in surprisingly large cities - for example, for a new Class C
station on 1400 in Philadelphia...
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

Perhaps it's not Stow, but Steubenville. Wheeling is across the river from
Steubenville, pretty much, but is nowhere near Stow, and I not only can't see
the FCC allowing 1170 and 1150 to be lit up in the same market, I can't see the
FCC allowing Clear Channel to remove an operational station from one market to
put it into another.


CC bought and took dark two full power (old rules) 1150s so it could pump its
L.A. 1150 to full power (new rules) ... 50 kW days, 44 kW nights.

The move of WWVA is indeed to Stow, OH, with the Tx site midway between
Cleveland and Stow.

The proposed DA-D is most likely to protect adjacent-channel stations.

The proposed DA-N is to protect a co-channel station ... ex-KVOO being the only
one that matters for 27 kW.

For 50 kW nights, the Class I-N in Alaska would have to be considered, and the
DA-N would likely have to have more towers.

There are three Class As on 1170 ... all are U.S.

On 28 Mar 2004 22:20:19 GMT, Doug Smith W9WI
wrote:

On the other hand, I'm sure the engineering study for WWVA wasn't cheap
- and Clear Channel isn't known for wasting money filing impossible
technical changes. Obviously they've found *some* way they expect to
get this change through.

I wonder if anyone knows *how*?

The presumption, by many of us following this move, is that CC has
made a deal with Family Radio to either shutter or move WCUE/1150
Cuyahoga Falls.

You're right, there's no way to plop 1170 on the dial licensed to Stow
(even if the tower is out past Strongsville) if 1150 is on in the
Falls.

Unfortunately, the WWVA move application has no attached PDF files, so
it's hard to tell how they're justifying the move technically
WCUE's presence. But I'd bet the farm that WCUE is either going to be
paid to go dark, or move frequency. A friend suggested that 1140
might work, since two stations in the region that used to be on the
frequency are no longer on the air...but I don't know if that
third-adjacent would be enough.

I'm also unsure why a WCUE application hasn't ended up online yet, but
this could all be already "covered", just not online at the FCC site
yet.

I'd actually shed a tear for a dark WCUE, as it's the first radio
station sort of in my resume, and a long-time Top 40 outlet locally
back in the day.

Steven J Sobol wrote:
Perhaps it's not Stow, but Steubenville. Wheeling is across the river from


It's definitely Stow.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/amq?state...2=&EW=W&size=9

The map link shows a transmitter site just west of Strongsville.

I can't
see the FCC allowing Clear Channel to remove an operational station from
one market to put it into another.

It's been done before... WHMA-100.5 Anniston, Alabama moving to College
Park, Georgia (Atlanta suburb); KGYN-1210 Guymon, Oklahoma moving 200
miles to Oklahoma City (not yet implemented)...

I want to know what the point is. What are they going to put there? Someone
else owns the news-talker in Akron, they own ESPN 1350; Akron's a small market.
How many AMs do they expect the area to be able to support? There are a few
minor ones like WCUE in addition to 1350 and 1590 already.

Judging from the transmitter site their target market is Cleveland, not
Akron. With 50,000/27,000 watts they'll have a far better signal across
the city than probably anyone else except 1100 and 1220.
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

"Steven J Sobol" wrote in message
...

Perhaps it's not Stow, but Steubenville. Wheeling is across the river from
Steubenville, pretty much, but is nowhere near Stow, and I not only can't
see the FCC allowing 1170 and 1150 to be lit up in the same market, I
can't
see the FCC allowing Clear Channel to remove an operational station from
one market to put it into another.

Steve, the WWVA proposal is to serve Cleveland, but licensed to Stow. It
would be 16 miles SW of the Terminal Tower, but 26 miles WNW of Stow. Stow
obviously needs a "first local service", while Wheeling has a number of AM
and FM stations (irony OFF).

WRTK Niles is proposing to move to 1180 with 3 towers at the WABQ site to
serve "Lakewood". It is surely just a coincidence that the WABQ site is east
of Cleveland while Lakewood is west.

bob

Doug Smith W9WI wrote:

Comments from Clevelanders on another list indicate the incorporated
areas of the two towns border on each other. (Steven S., do you know if
this is true?)

Yes

The Census Bureau's map page says the 1990 population of Stow was 27,702
and of Cuyahoga Falls 48,950. (each spread across multiple ZIP codes)
I'd think that would mean the incorporated area but could be wrong.

My bet is this is what's going on. Maybe CC will hand over one of their
smaller Cleveland/Akron-area AMs in return?

Which one? They only own one Akron AM and one Cleveland AM.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, Apple Valley, CA PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
Domain Names, $9.95/yr, 24x7 service: http://DomainNames.JustThe.net/
"someone once called me a sofa, but i didn't feel compelled to rush out and buy
slip covers." -adam brower * Hiroshima '45, Chernobyl '86, Windows 98/2000/2003

On 29 Mar 2004 16:16:22 GMT, "R J Carpenter"
wrote:

Steve, the WWVA proposal is to serve Cleveland, but licensed to Stow. It
would be 16 miles SW of the Terminal Tower, but 26 miles WNW of Stow. Stow
obviously needs a "first local service", while Wheeling has a number of AM
and FM stations (irony OFF).

And if you're trying to handicap the "first local service" thing, Stow
would have great odds. It's grown like the proverbial weeds over the
past 20 years. The population figure cited here (27,000) is probably
more like 40,000 by now. Stow's eastern edge, near Kent, is dotted
with a whole bunch of new housing developments, and a new giant
Stow-Munroe Falls High School in that same area of town.

And among other "usual suspects" for the first local service petition,
Stow has its own weekly newspaper, and they could probably make an
argument that it has enough employment separate from Akron or
Cleveland.

I'm just not sure why a Cleveland area community - within the proper
signal range of the site in Lorain County near Strongsville, which
would still provide a market signal over Cleveland - wouldn't work
here...and why they had to reach clear to Stow to find a COL for the
new 1170 app.

Mike

Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
It's been done before... WHMA-100.5 Anniston, Alabama moving to College
Park, Georgia (Atlanta suburb); KGYN-1210 Guymon, Oklahoma moving 200
miles to Oklahoma City (not yet implemented)...

Hey, KGYN 1210 is one I've heard in Central Ohio
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin4/radio1210.kgyn.ra (real audio)

I suppose that will make it easier to hear by 200 miles.

--
Ron Hardin


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Doug Smith W9WI wrote:

Or WCSJ-1550 (Morris, Illinois) to Amado, Arizona on 670...

Am I reading this right? Somebody wants to move a station across 6 states?

Checking FCC site. Yeah, that's what they want to do.

This is completely assinine. Why not just apply for a new station?

Steven J Sobol wrote:
Which one? They only own one Akron AM and one Cleveland AM.

I suppose the Akron one... (which one do they own?)

IIRC WTAM-1100 is their Cleveland AM - I'm sure they'll want to keep
that - but nothing in Akron comes anywhere near the proposed Stow
signal, IMHO they'd be glad to trade it to Family Stations if that gets
them approval for the 1170 move.
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

On 30 Mar 2004 15:06:16 GMT, Doug Smith W9WI
wrote:

Steven J Sobol wrote:
Which one? They only own one Akron AM and one Cleveland AM.

I suppose the Akron one... (which one do they own?)

IIRC WTAM-1100 is their Cleveland AM - I'm sure they'll want to keep
that - but nothing in Akron comes anywhere near the proposed Stow
signal, IMHO they'd be glad to trade it to Family Stations if that gets
them approval for the 1170 move.

Clear Channel actually owns two AMs in this market (Akron). In
addition to WTOU "Fox Sports 1350" (the historic country WSLR), which
they picked up in the Barnstable deal with WKDD/96.5, they recently
bought WHLO/640 from Salem. WHLO was flipped to a news/talk format
shortly after the purchase.

My gut tells me that they won't give up either 640 or 1350 to Family
Radio...and that somehow they'll move or pay FR to shutter 1150 to get
the move accomplished.

Of course, since the Barnstable purchase, 96.5 - still licensed to
Akron - became Cleveland market "96.5 Kiss FM", and the WKDD
programming moved to 98.1 Canton...the former WHK-FM, once owned by
Salem.

My gut tells me that they won't give up either 640 or 1350 to Family
Radio...and that somehow they'll move or pay FR to shutter 1150 to get
the move accomplished.


Which is what they did in CA to get two co-channel 1150s off of L.A.'s 1150 in
order to do a 50/44 kW upgrade there.

"CA was in NJ"
SHOT_ON_SIGHT wrote in
message ...

Am I reading this right? Somebody wants to move a station across 6
states?

Checking FCC site. Yeah, that's what they want to do.

This is completely assinine. Why not just apply for a new station?


Because of all the noise on the AM band, the FCC will not authorize a new AM
station.

geoff

Geoff Brozny wrote:

Because of all the noise on the AM band, the FCC will not authorize a new AM
station.

What I want to know is what CCU hopes to add. Most of the AM stations in
Cleveland are crap.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, Apple Valley, CA PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
Domain Names, $9.95/yr, 24x7 service: http://DomainNames.JustThe.net/
"someone once called me a sofa, but i didn't feel compelled to rush out and buy
slip covers." -adam brower * Hiroshima '45, Chernobyl '86, Windows 98/2000/2003

Geoff Brozny wrote:

Because of all the noise on the AM band, the FCC will not authorize a new AM
station.

That's going to be a real disappointment to the thousands of applicants who
applied for new stations.

"Geoff Brozny" wrote in message
...

"CA was in NJ"
SHOT_ON_SIGHT wrote in
message ...

Am I reading this right? Somebody wants to move a station across 6
states?

Checking FCC site. Yeah, that's what they want to do.

This is completely assinine. Why not just apply for a new station?


Because of all the noise on the AM band, the FCC will not authorize a new
AM
station.

A large number of the January window applications are for new stations.

Geoff Brozny wrote:
Because of all the noise on the AM band, the FCC will not authorize a new AM
station.

That must be news to the 893 people who filed applications for new
stations earlier this year, in cities as large as Philadelphia...

(I have heard some speculation that the ultra-long-distance moves like
Mississippi=Arizona are typos.)
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

The FCC should put the AM band ON HOLD. Then open a DAB band, coordinated with or
without the Canadians, I don't care. Open a window for applications to this new band
with preferential treatment for existing AM owners, then those with AM and FM
operations, and finally FM only licensees FOR THE COL only. License those, with a
drop dead date for the existing AM operation of 1 year after a station's CP is
completed, and close the AM band , regardless, in 4 years.

It would be ideal for community broadcasters....RDS, heck, just about anything which
doesn't need to be co-ordinated. Those who didn't get a license could rent their
towers out for cell phones.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there's nothing that offends you in your community, then you know you're not
living in a free society.
Kim Campbell - ex-Canadian Prime Minister - 2004
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For direct replies, take out the contents between the hyphens. -Really!-



"Geoff Brozny" wrote in message
...

"CA was in NJ"
SHOT_ON_SIGHT wrote in
message ...

Am I reading this right? Somebody wants to move a station across 6
states?

Checking FCC site. Yeah, that's what they want to do.

This is completely assinine. Why not just apply for a new station?


Because of all the noise on the AM band, the FCC will not authorize a new AM
station.

geoff

"CA was in NJ"
SHOT_ON_SIGHT wrote in
message ...


That's going to be a real disappointment to the thousands of applicants
who
applied for new stations.



Looks like I was wrong

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/getstat.html

"Applications for new AM broadcast stations must be electronically filed on
FCC Form 301 during a specified application window period."

It's the expanded band they will not take new applications for.

geoff