RF choke/balun question
 

What size loop and how many turns should I use to create a RF choke with my
coax, right before the antenna?

Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:
What size loop and how many turns should I use to create a RF choke with my
coax, right before the antenna?

Vinnie S.

8 to 10 turns on an 8 inch form, remove the form, with RG-8X or similar
"mini" coax. 6-8 turns with RG-8 or 213.

HTH

-SSB

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:25:07 GMT, SideBand wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:
What size loop and how many turns should I use to create a RF choke with my
coax, right before the antenna?

Vinnie S.

8 to 10 turns on an 8 inch form, remove the form, with RG-8X or similar
"mini" coax. 6-8 turns with RG-8 or 213.

HTH

-SSB


Thanks. I am going to use LMR-400. I assume that is about the same thickness as
the RG-8.

Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:25:07 GMT, SideBand wrote:


Vinnie S. wrote:

What size loop and how many turns should I use to create a RF choke with my
coax, right before the antenna?

Vinnie S.

8 to 10 turns on an 8 inch form, remove the form, with RG-8X or similar
"mini" coax. 6-8 turns with RG-8 or 213.

HTH

-SSB



Thanks. I am going to use LMR-400. I assume that is about the same thickness as
the RG-8.

Vinnie S.

Yes.. Roughly equivalent. What's the application? You building a dipole
or an inverted V?

-SSB

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:03:22 GMT, SideBand wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:25:07 GMT, SideBand wrote:


Vinnie S. wrote:

What size loop and how many turns should I use to create a RF choke with my
coax, right before the antenna?

Vinnie S.

8 to 10 turns on an 8 inch form, remove the form, with RG-8X or similar
"mini" coax. 6-8 turns with RG-8 or 213.

HTH

-SSB



Thanks. I am going to use LMR-400. I assume that is about the same thickness as
the RG-8.

Vinnie S.

Yes.. Roughly equivalent. What's the application? You building a dipole
or an inverted V?


Sticking a 6 foot Firestick in the attic, using eight 9' wires as a ground
plane. Then when the weather warms, I stick a Imax in a tree.

Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:03:22 GMT, SideBand wrote:


Vinnie S. wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:25:07 GMT, SideBand wrote:



Vinnie S. wrote:


What size loop and how many turns should I use to create a RF choke with my
coax, right before the antenna?

Vinnie S.

8 to 10 turns on an 8 inch form, remove the form, with RG-8X or similar
"mini" coax. 6-8 turns with RG-8 or 213.

HTH

-SSB



Thanks. I am going to use LMR-400. I assume that is about the same thickness as
the RG-8.

Vinnie S.

Yes.. Roughly equivalent. What's the application? You building a dipole
or an inverted V?



Sticking a 6 foot Firestick in the attic, using eight 9' wires as a ground
plane. Then when the weather warms, I stick a Imax in a tree.

Vinnie S.

You shouldn't need a choke for that, but it won't hurt either. Keep the
plane of the coil perpendicular to the antenna (the firestik) in that
setup, and drape the wires for the ground plane over the top of it.. If
you can get a foot or two separating the coil/choke and the ground plane
wires.

-SSB

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:08:40 GMT, SideBand wrote:



Thanks. I am going to use LMR-400. I assume that is about the same thickness as
the RG-8.

Vinnie S.

Yes.. Roughly equivalent. What's the application? You building a dipole
or an inverted V?



Sticking a 6 foot Firestick in the attic, using eight 9' wires as a ground
plane. Then when the weather warms, I stick a Imax in a tree.

Vinnie S.

You shouldn't need a choke for that, but it won't hurt either. Keep the
plane of the coil perpendicular to the antenna (the firestik) in that
setup, and drape the wires for the ground plane over the top of it.. If
you can get a foot or two separating the coil/choke and the ground plane
wires.

-SSB


That is going to be tough. I can definitely get it under, but not by a a foot.
When you mean perpendicular, you the outer edge of the coil directly under the
antenna, king of the antenna point up at 12 o'clock at the coil? At least, that
is the way I remember perpendicular, being a vertical touching the horizontal
forming a T.

Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:08:40 GMT, SideBand wrote:



Thanks. I am going to use LMR-400. I assume that is about the same thickness as
the RG-8.

Vinnie S.

Yes.. Roughly equivalent. What's the application? You building a dipole
or an inverted V?



Sticking a 6 foot Firestick in the attic, using eight 9' wires as a ground
plane. Then when the weather warms, I stick a Imax in a tree.

Vinnie S.

You shouldn't need a choke for that, but it won't hurt either. Keep the
plane of the coil perpendicular to the antenna (the firestik) in that
setup, and drape the wires for the ground plane over the top of it.. If
you can get a foot or two separating the coil/choke and the ground plane
wires.

-SSB



That is going to be tough. I can definitely get it under, but not by a a foot.
When you mean perpendicular, you the outer edge of the coil directly under the
antenna, king of the antenna point up at 12 o'clock at the coil? At least, that
is the way I remember perpendicular, being a vertical touching the horizontal
forming a T.

Vinnie S.

No.. that would be parallel..

Make a circle with your forefinger and thumb. Stick your other
forefinger thru it.. That's how it should look, only not touching. If
you can't get it a foot up, get it as far up as you can, and drape the
ground plane wires over top of the coil. Not REALLY critical, but it
will help with matching.

-SSB

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:56:39 GMT, SideBand wrote:


That I can do. I got 16" between the joists, and stick the coil directly under
the antenna. So if you are looking from an overhead view, the antenna is
directly in the middle of the open part of the coil. The GP wires will be over
it. Is this correct? It sounds like a plan.

Thanks for your help !






Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:56:39 GMT, SideBand wrote:


That I can do. I got 16" between the joists, and stick the coil directly under
the antenna. So if you are looking from an overhead view, the antenna is
directly in the middle of the open part of the coil. The GP wires will be over
it. Is this correct? It sounds like a plan.

Thanks for your help !






Vinnie S.
Yep.. you got it this time. Looking down the antenna, you're looking at
an "O" (the choke) with the antenna being the center point of the
circle. Wires physically above the coil.

Good luck.

That's what us HAMs are supposed to be here for.

-SSB

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:00:04 GMT, SideBand wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:56:39 GMT, SideBand wrote:


That I can do. I got 16" between the joists, and stick the coil directly under
the antenna. So if you are looking from an overhead view, the antenna is
directly in the middle of the open part of the coil. The GP wires will be over
it. Is this correct? It sounds like a plan.

Thanks for your help !






Vinnie S.
Yep.. you got it this time. Looking down the antenna, you're looking at
an "O" (the choke) with the antenna being the center point of the
circle. Wires physically above the coil.

Good luck.

That's what us HAMs are supposed to be here for.

-SSB


The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax. I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000 with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the tree.

Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:00:04 GMT, SideBand wrote:


Vinnie S. wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:56:39 GMT, SideBand wrote:


That I can do. I got 16" between the joists, and stick the coil directly under
the antenna. So if you are looking from an overhead view, the antenna is
directly in the middle of the open part of the coil. The GP wires will be over
it. Is this correct? It sounds like a plan.

Thanks for your help !






Vinnie S.

Yep.. you got it this time. Looking down the antenna, you're looking at
an "O" (the choke) with the antenna being the center point of the
circle. Wires physically above the coil.

Good luck.

That's what us HAMs are supposed to be here for.

-SSB



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax. I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000 with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.

The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.

Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.

HTH

-SSB

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:


The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax. I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000 with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5 watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts. I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB with an
antenna directly overhead.

The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot, across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and entering
from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.

For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family. This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

"Lancer" wrote in message
news:dhcnv0h9f7k8qtlq1fjbrn0ef8t35mojgm@2355323778 ...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:35:18 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:


The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5
watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts.
I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB
with an
antenna directly overhead.

The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot,
across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line
into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and
entering
from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the
driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.

For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up
there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces
of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family.
This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

Your firestick is not an electrical 5/8 wave, the only thing 5.8 wave
about the firestick is the length of wire the wind on the antenna.

Lancer, does the term "electrical" not indicate the length of wire? He did
not say physical.

"Lancer" wrote in message
news:h0dnv09thrmmfbmtln9llck6p044ufscfl@2355323778 ...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:00:04 GMT, SideBand wrote:


Vinnie S. wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:56:39 GMT, SideBand wrote:


That I can do. I got 16" between the joists, and stick the coil
directly under
the antenna. So if you are looking from an overhead view, the antenna
is
directly in the middle of the open part of the coil. The GP wires will
be over
it. Is this correct? It sounds like a plan.

Thanks for your help !






Vinnie S.

Yep.. you got it this time. Looking down the antenna, you're looking at
an "O" (the choke) with the antenna being the center point of the
circle. Wires physically above the coil.

Good luck.

That's what us HAMs are supposed to be here for.

-SSB



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax. I
figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.

Great idea, trash one of baluns and use a MFJ-949E at the transmitter
end..


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Isn't that why you put a balun on the antenna end?

Why use 25 feet?


Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.

Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.

HTH

-SSB

If he is going to build an inverted V , or dipole there is no reason
to use a balun at all.. ladder line to the antenna, and tuner at the
transmit end..

Maybe the output of the radio is a reason? I have yet to see a CB with
balanced output.

"U Know Who" wrote in message
...

"Lancer" wrote in message
news:h0dnv09thrmmfbmtln9llck6p044ufscfl@2355323778 ...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:00:04 GMT, SideBand wrote:


Vinnie S. wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:56:39 GMT, SideBand wrote:


That I can do. I got 16" between the joists, and stick the coil
directly under
the antenna. So if you are looking from an overhead view, the antenna
is
directly in the middle of the open part of the coil. The GP wires will
be over
it. Is this correct? It sounds like a plan.

Thanks for your help !






Vinnie S.

Yep.. you got it this time. Looking down the antenna, you're looking at
an "O" (the choke) with the antenna being the center point of the
circle. Wires physically above the coil.

Good luck.

That's what us HAMs are supposed to be here for.

-SSB



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.

Great idea, trash one of baluns and use a MFJ-949E at the transmitter
end..


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Isn't that why you put a balun on the antenna end?

Why use 25 feet?


Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.

Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.

HTH

-SSB

If he is going to build an inverted V , or dipole there is no reason
to use a balun at all.. ladder line to the antenna, and tuner at the
transmit end..

Maybe the output of the radio is a reason? I have yet to see a CB with
balanced output.


Although cheap and nasty, the choke method works, without investing in the
cost of a tuner.

Vinnie S. wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax. I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000 with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.


If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5 watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts. I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB with an
antenna directly overhead.


The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.



The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.


This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot, across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and entering
from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.


For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.




Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.



In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family. This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

No, no...

You'd use coax to get out of the house, use the balun to switch to the
ladderline OUTSIDE the house, then switch back to coax thru the other
balun 20'-25' from the antenna.

-SSB

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:49:38 GMT, SideBand wrote:



That can work !

Vinnie S.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:56:30 GMT, "U Know Who" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
news:dhcnv0h9f7k8qtlq1fjbrn0ef8t35mojgm@235532377 8...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:35:18 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:


The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5
watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts.
I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB
with an
antenna directly overhead.

The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot,
across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line
into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and
entering
from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the
driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.

For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up
there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces
of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family.
This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

Your firestick is not an electrical 5/8 wave, the only thing 5.8 wave
about the firestick is the length of wire the wind on the antenna.

Lancer, does the term "electrical" not indicate the length of wire? He did
not say physical.



Here is my quote:

"It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet."

Here is the Firestik website.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:52:30 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:56:30 GMT, "U Know Who" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
news:dhcnv0h9f7k8qtlq1fjbrn0ef8t35mojgm@23553237 78...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:35:18 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:


The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5
watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts.
I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB
with an
antenna directly overhead.

The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot,
across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line
into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and
entering
from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the
driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.

For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up
there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces
of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family.
This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

Your firestick is not an electrical 5/8 wave, the only thing 5.8 wave
about the firestick is the length of wire the wind on the antenna.

Lancer, does the term "electrical" not indicate the length of wire? He did
not say physical.



Here is my quote:

"It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet."

Here is the Firestik website.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.

LOL! Looks like the same e-mail that firestick sent to me when I told
them they didn't have a 6 foot 5/8 wave antenna.

A 5/8 wave antenna a feedpoint impedance of about
150 - j600 ohms.

Now if you think that will match your CB, hey more power to you.
I have this bridge for sale... you know the rest...

You have a 6 foot antenna that is 1/4 wave electrical length..

They are good antennas, but they are not a 5/8 wave antenna...

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:42:32 GMT, Lancer wrote:



Here is my quote:

"It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet."

Here is the Firestik website.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.

LOL! Looks like the same e-mail that firestick sent to me when I told
them they didn't have a 6 foot 5/8 wave antenna.

I am not getting into a ****ing contest with you. I am not an expert on
antennas, hence I ask advice from people like Sideband, Chad, etc. People like
you OTOH, seem to only one to do one thing. You like to one up somebody else.
You offer no help. If you have a problem here, it's with Firestik, not me. I
suggest you take it up with them.

A 5/8 wave antenna a feedpoint impedance of about
150 - j600 ohms.

Now if you think that will match your CB, hey more power to you.
I have this bridge for sale... you know the rest...

SO what you are saying is their antennas do work on 27 MHz?

You have a 6 foot antenna that is 1/4 wave electrical length..

They are good antennas, but they are not a 5/8 wave antenna...

Um, I don't ever think I said that.

Hey, if you got advice, then give it, and I will appreciate it. If you want to
mock me and flaunt your supposed knowledge, then go ahead. I could really give a
**** if you are that petty. That is your problem.

Vinnie S.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:19:35 GMT, Lancer wrote:


3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.

LOL! Looks like the same e-mail that firestick sent to me when I told
them they didn't have a 6 foot 5/8 wave antenna.

I am not getting into a ****ing contest with you. I am not an expert on
antennas, hence I ask advice from people like Sideband, Chad, etc. People like
you OTOH, seem to only one to do one thing. You like to one up somebody else.
You offer no help. If you have a problem here, it's with Firestik, not me. I
suggest you take it up with them.

A little too sensitive Vinne? I would hardly call what I said as
"starting a ****ing contest"

Nope. I am curious as to why you find a "LOL" out of Firestik claiming that
their antennas are 5/8. That is what causes to to LOL? Your family get-togethers
must be a blast.


A 5/8 wave antenna a feedpoint impedance of about
150 - j600 ohms.

Now if you think that will match your CB, hey more power to you.
I have this bridge for sale... you know the rest...

SO what you are saying is their antennas do work on 27 MHz?

Yes, they do work quite well..

So won't it maych my radio?


You have a 6 foot antenna that is 1/4 wave electrical length..

They are good antennas, but they are not a 5/8 wave antenna...

Um, I don't ever think I said that.

Hey, if you got advice, then give it, and I will appreciate it. If you want to
mock me and flaunt your supposed knowledge, then go ahead. I could really give a
**** if you are that petty. That is your problem.

Vinnie S.

Geez, sorry Vinnie, I didn't mean to **** you off.

Don't flatter yourself. You will never **** me off.

I wasn't mocking
you.

Nope. You just find LOL humor in a Firestk claim. I think you mock yourself.

I made a simple statement that a firestick is not an electrical
5/8. Then instead of asking for an explanation, or why I said that.
You take it personal, and go off the deep end.

Yeah, you made a simple statement where to LOL at an antenna claim, and then had
a bridge to sell me.

Why don't you just offer advice and be useful in society?

Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:
Why don't you just offer advice and be useful in society?

Vinnie S.

Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand luke)

Steveo wrote:




Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Lancer wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:40:34 -0600, itoldyouiamnotiamnotgeorge
wrote:


Steveo wrote in news:20050130113344.291
:


Vinnie S. wrote:

Why don't you just offer advice and be useful in society?

Vinnie S.


Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand luke)

Nah thats just Vinnie crying like a little ****ing girl.

Lance was laughing at the Form letter firestick sent out, to bad Ninnie is
such a putz and a ignorant asshole to see what went down.


I honestly don't see how you take it any way except me laughing at
Firesticks claims...

Boring weekend with no football..
after next weekend then its until pitchers and catchers report. no
hockey which is not a great tragedy and i cant watch those thyroid
excited freaks called the nba.

Lancer wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:03:19 -0500, jim
wrote:


Lancer wrote:


On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:40:34 -0600, itoldyouiamnotiamnotgeorge
wrote:



Steveo wrote in news:20050130113344.291
:



Vinnie S. wrote:


Why don't you just offer advice and be useful in society?

Vinnie S.


Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand luke)

Nah thats just Vinnie crying like a little ****ing girl.

Lance was laughing at the Form letter firestick sent out, to bad Ninnie is
such a putz and a ignorant asshole to see what went down.


I honestly don't see how you take it any way except me laughing at
Firesticks claims...

Boring weekend with no football..

after next weekend then its until pitchers and catchers report. no
hockey which is not a great tragedy and i cant watch those thyroid
excited freaks called the nba.


Hockey games are fun to watch in person. Can't stand it on TV.

I was think about buying tickets to the Dallas Desperados, arena
football. Plus their cheerleaders are better looking than the
Cowsboys cheerleaders. Something about a woman wearing leather
chaps..
granted hockey in person is great. last time out was free tix from a
local supermarket owner who came up to me and handed over a pair for
center ice 6th row for an islander playoff game.

jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:



Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)

the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Lancer wrote:
On 30 Jan 2005 16:33:44 GMT, Steveo wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:
Why don't you just offer advice and be useful in society?

Vinnie S.

Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)

Thats correct Steve...

Hey we are supposed to get snow this week... is yours all gone?

We still have quite a bit on the ground, it hasn't gone above freezing
in a while up here.

itoldyouiamnotiamnotgeorge
wrote:
Steveo wrote in
:

Hey we are supposed to get snow this week... is yours all gone?

We still have quite a bit on the ground, it hasn't gone above freezing
in a while up here.

Same here this snow will be with us for a while, we got 3" +/- overnight

We got about an inch..didja plow?

On 30 Jan 2005 16:33:44 GMT, Steveo wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:
Why don't you just offer advice and be useful in society?

Vinnie S.

Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand luke)


Sounds good to me. No hard feelings.

Vinnie S.

Lancer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:52:30 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:56:30 GMT, "U Know Who" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
news:dhcnv0h9f7k8qtlq1fjbrn0ef8t35mojgm@2355323 778...

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:35:18 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5
watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts.
I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB
with an
antenna directly overhead.


The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot,
across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line
into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and
entering

from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the

driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.


For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up
there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces
of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family.
This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

Your firestick is not an electrical 5/8 wave, the only thing 5.8 wave
about the firestick is the length of wire the wind on the antenna.

Lancer, does the term "electrical" not indicate the length of wire? He did
not say physical.



Here is my quote:

"It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet."

Here is the Firestik website.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.


LOL! Looks like the same e-mail that firestick sent to me when I told
them they didn't have a 6 foot 5/8 wave antenna.

A 5/8 wave antenna a feedpoint impedance of about
150 - j600 ohms.

Now if you think that will match your CB, hey more power to you.
I have this bridge for sale... you know the rest...

You have a 6 foot antenna that is 1/4 wave electrical length..

They are good antennas, but they are not a 5/8 wave antenna...


That depends on where you place the loading coils, how many turns of X
gage wire at Y pitch in Z linear space on a form of W diameter.

If there's 22.556 feet of wire on the 6 foot stick, then it's 5/8 wave,
electrically, on 11M. How it's matched to the 50 ohm coax (not the
radio) depends on where the turns are, etc, as stated above.

Oh, and a 1/4 wave antenna doesn't match to 50 ohms either... It's
closer to 32 ohms (therefore the 1.5:1 match on a 1/4 whip).

FYI

-SSB

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:46:59 GMT, SideBand wrote:

Lancer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:52:30 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:56:30 GMT, "U Know Who" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
news:dhcnv0h9f7k8qtlq1fjbrn0ef8t35mojgm@235532 3778...

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:35:18 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:


On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:23:53 GMT, SideBand wrote:



The PVC condiut is up. I ran a conduit so I can run the coax right to
the
basement, from the attic. I will make a run tomorrow to get coax and
supplies.
The Firestik arrived.

Also, I roughly measured the distance to the tree where I want to put a
permanent antenna. The distance is huge, about 275 feet of total coax.
I figured
I can use LMR-400DB (direct burial). I estimate about 2 dB loss at that
distance. How much power loss is that on a HR-2510, using a Imax-2000
with a GP
kit, assuming a good SWR? I am not running power. Will that antenna
offset that
loss by itself?I really don't have a choice. It's not going on the
house.
Besides, the damn house is too low anyway. I can get way higher on the
tree.

Vinnie S.

Vin:

Your loss will actually fall somewhere between 1.89 and 2dB.

2 db equates to roughly 23% power loss, assuming 1:1 SWR at the antenna.
Since 1:1 isn't easily attained (you can't get it with a resonant dipole
or a 1/4 wave whip without some sort of feed point matching, and then
you lose some radiation efficiency), you can assume you're going to get
some additional feed line (coax) losses (heating, mostly) because of
the mismatch at the antenna. For that run I would highly suggest
staying away from coax and see if you can find some 200 ohm twinlead.
Output coax from the radio to the outside to a 4:1 balun to the twinlead
to a 4:1 balun (in reverse), to about 20 feet of coax to the antenna.
Losses will be MUCH lower than with coax.

If I have the HR-2510 at 10 Watts DK, I am still putting out about 7.5
watts. If
I turn up the DK to about 20 watts, I can still transmit about 15.5 watts.
I
guess that is not bad.

I guess the point is I can still get at least the power of a standard CB
with an
antenna directly overhead.


The other option would be 450 ohm twinlead (ladderline) and a 9:1 balun
at both ends. Ladderline is running about $0.19 +/- a foot, depending on
where you're getting it. The cost for the baluns and the ladderline WILL
be less than the run of LMR400.


The caveat here will be that you will need to keep the ladderline well
away from ALL metal.. within about a foot of the ladderline.

This will be a major problem. I have all my plumbing well within a foot,
across
the entire length of the house. All where I would bring the ladder line
into the
house. I cannot move the entry point without some serious digging and
entering

from the front of the house. There are numerous obstacles like the

driveway and
sidewalk. I will have to look into the 200 ohm twin lead.


For that long of a run, I would personally run a pair of 9:1 baluns and
the 450 ohm ladderline. The cost and the losses will be lowest there.

The reason for the 25' of coax at the antenna end is to keep the
ladderline from being unbalanced by the antenna.

Estimated losses for the 9:1's and 450 ohm... .6 db (and that's at the
highest), depending on the quality of the baluns. Less than 5% power
loss, and not quite so much effect due to poor SWR at the end.



Your dipole should see about a 1.3:1 - 1.5:1 SWR across the CB band. If
it's possible to make a "V" antenna in the branches (inverted or not)
the SWR could be lower, and you could definitely see some improvements
over a vertical dipole.


In the attic, I am using a 6 foot Firestik. It is the highest I can go up
there.
It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet. I am using 8 pieces
of 9
foot wires as a ground plane. Luckily, I have electricians in the family.
This
should work OK for now?

Vinnie S.

Your firestick is not an electrical 5/8 wave, the only thing 5.8 wave
about the firestick is the length of wire the wind on the antenna.

Lancer, does the term "electrical" not indicate the length of wire? He did
not say physical.



Here is my quote:

"It is an electrical 5/8 wave, though physical 6 feet."

Here is the Firestik website.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

3. Some "experts" may "claim" 5/8 wave mobile antennas are not possible because
they would need to be 23 feet high. They are wrong! Physical length and ground
wave performance are not the same. If you ever hear someone make that claim, ask
them how a handheld CB can have a 1/4 wave antenna 8 inches long and mobile 1/4
wave antennas can be anywhere from 12-60 inches long in spite of the fact that a
physical 1/4 wave is 108 inches.

Vinnie S.


LOL! Looks like the same e-mail that firestick sent to me when I told
them they didn't have a 6 foot 5/8 wave antenna.

A 5/8 wave antenna a feedpoint impedance of about
150 - j600 ohms.

Now if you think that will match your CB, hey more power to you.
I have this bridge for sale... you know the rest...

You have a 6 foot antenna that is 1/4 wave electrical length..

They are good antennas, but they are not a 5/8 wave antenna...


That depends on where you place the loading coils, how many turns of X
gage wire at Y pitch in Z linear space on a form of W diameter.

If there's 22.556 feet of wire on the 6 foot stick, then it's 5/8 wave,
electrically, on 11M. How it's matched to the 50 ohm coax (not the
radio) depends on where the turns are, etc, as stated above.

No, its not an electrical 5/8 wave. A 5 foot antenna has about 8 ohms
-322j. Add a series inductor (firesticks 5/8 wave of wire) of 2 ohms
+322j. You now have a 10 ohm j0. You don't change the electrical
length, just cancel the reactance.

There little trick of adding more wire so that they may claim to have
a 5/8 wave antenna actually make the antenna less efficient.
They end up using more wire than a convential coil would use.
It does NOT make the element longer.

Oh, and a 1/4 wave antenna doesn't match to 50 ohms either... It's
closer to 32 ohms (therefore the 1.5:1 match on a 1/4 whip).

What do you call a decent match? 1.5 to 1 isn't?
A true 5/8 wave antenna will have an SWR of about 32 to 1.


FYI

-SSB

From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

From: pam
(itoldyouiamnotiamnotgeorge)
Steveo wrote in
:
Hey we are supposed to get snow this week... is yours all gone?
-
(We still have quite a bit on the ground, it hasn't gone above freezing
in a while up here.)

Same here this snow will be with us for a

while, we got 3" +/- overnight


Perhaps Punxsutawney Phil won't see his shadow this year. You can then
exit the cave and enjoy something other than artificial light. It may
even put an end to your winter depression.
On another note, a friend of mine sold all his stuff this weekend after
selling his home and purchasing a condo. He gave me a KLV amp that needs
a new cord. Do you still need some help to get heard down here?
According to Mason, you sure do.

On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Had some help..it was on again a week or so ago, Lancer. :)

On 01 Feb 2005 17:43:27 GMT, Steveo wrote:

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat over-stated
antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'. ($-cool hand
luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Had some help..it was on again a week or so ago, Lancer. :)

I was think about ordering it from blockbuster after you guys started
talking about it..

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 17:43:27 GMT, Steveo wrote:

Lancer wrote:
On 01 Feb 2005 15:33:36 GMT, Steveo wrote:

(I AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:
From: (Steveo)
jim wrote:
Steveo wrote:
Hi, Enzo. I think he was LOL'ing about firesticks somewhat
over-stated antenna specs. Sounds like a 'failure to communicate'.
($-cool hand luke)
the movie had an excellant view of the woman washing the car hehehe

Sweet Lucille.

Sweet Lucy was a dancer....

George Kennedy gave her that nic in the movie.

Dang Steve, good memory...

Had some help..it was on again a week or so ago, Lancer. :)

I was think about ordering it from blockbuster after you guys started
talking about it..

Might as well get The Hustler too while you're at it..get your Paul Newman
fix. Great flix.