On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:25:37 -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:

So is driving 56 mph in a 55. But I am sure you have never done that.
Hypocracy at it's finest.

Depends on the state. Most states give you 10% leeway for differences in
speedometer calibration.

No they don't. The speed limits signs or laws do not say 55 or 65, +/- 10%.

That is nothing more than the descretion of the cop that tickets you.

Vinnie S.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:49:49 -0500, Vinnie S.
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:25:37 -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:

So is driving 56 mph in a 55. But I am sure you have never done that.
Hypocracy at it's finest.

Depends on the state. Most states give you 10% leeway for differences in
speedometer calibration.

No they don't. The speed limits signs or laws do not say 55 or 65, +/- 10%.

That is nothing more than the descretion of the cop that tickets you.

That depends on the state. Some states (I believe Maryland is one)
have what they refer to as "Zero tolerance" 65 MPH. They can bust you
for 66, or so I've been told. I don't know how many cases have been
fought over speedometer or other potential speed inaccuracies and how
well the "zero tolerance" aspect has held up.

Most car speedometers are not so accurate that a 1 MPH difference is
all that hard to believe. Just putting one size larger tires on your
car can make that difference.

People have fought a speeding ticket on this basis and have won.
That's part of the reason why Pa. gives some leeway. Most cops don't
want to have to appear in traffic court when the chances are good the
case could get thrown out. However, it's a lot harder to make a case
for speedometer inaccuracies when you're 10 MPH or more over.

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:

Most car speedometers are not so accurate that a 1 MPH difference is
all that hard to believe. Just putting one size larger tires on your
car can make that difference.

Well, you're supposed to get your instruments recalibrated after changing
tire size. But differences as much as 5 MPH can happen depending on tire
pressure and road conditions...I've yet to see a speedometer read the right
speed driving on Oregon's notoriously rutted freeways in the rain (probably
because you're forced to hydroplane along the lane, which is why the locals
*will* get aggressive towards tailgaters, though the Californians usually
don't get it until they slam into a wall or the car ahead of them
approaching slower traffic hiding in the road spray of the vehicle ahead
because they're following too close).

People have fought a speeding ticket on this basis and have won.
That's part of the reason why Pa. gives some leeway. Most cops don't
want to have to appear in traffic court when the chances are good the
case could get thrown out. However, it's a lot harder to make a case
for speedometer inaccuracies when you're 10 MPH or more over.

I used to have to deal with police a lot when I was a security officer, and
at one site, the worksite's driveway was a common spot for police to set up
speed traps. The cops don't even bother radar cars until they see someone
moving considerably faster than surrounding traffic, radar the overspeed
vehicle for evidence, and just use the posted speed as something to
estimate a fine from.

They seem to radar everyone in areas where there are actual speed limits
when I see a speed trap in a limit zone. Though I never see anybody pulled
over, everybody just slows down for the speed limit and then drops the
hammer down when it goes back to a posted speed a few miles down the road.

I drive 100 km/h on the freeway even if the posted speed is considerably
lower if the conditions allow, and the cops working the speed trips don't
even look twice and keep looking for someone *really* speeding. Only time
I drive slower than 100 km/h on the freeway is in Salem where there *is* a
speed limit of 60 MPH (about 90 or so km/h), and on I-5, I-405 and US-30 in
downtown Portland, which has a posted speed of 50 but is usually insane to
try for more than 40, and the worst traffic accident in Oregon history was
caused by some ****head Californian who drove his bigrig at 60 MPH into 14
cars stopped in a traffic jam on I-405 while talking on a cellphone and
trying to pick up a CD off the floorpan. That Californian won't be going
back to California anytime soon, he's a prisoner in Salem now for his
criminally stupid behavior.

--
Paul Johnson

http://ursine.ca/~baloo/

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:45:50 -0800, Paul Johnson
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:

Most car speedometers are not so accurate that a 1 MPH difference is
all that hard to believe. Just putting one size larger tires on your
car can make that difference.

Well, you're supposed to get your instruments recalibrated after changing
tire size.

Yes, you probably should. But periodic speedometer calibration is not
on the list of "maintenance" items in the owner's manuals, nor is it
required as a part of (At least in my state) annual inspection. I'm
not even sure if anyone (other than the dealer) can even perform such
a service. It's clearly not something they advertise.


But differences as much as 5 MPH can happen depending on tire
pressure and road conditions...I've yet to see a speedometer read the right
speed driving on Oregon's notoriously rutted freeways in the rain (probably
because you're forced to hydroplane along the lane, which is why the locals
*will* get aggressive towards tailgaters, though the Californians usually
don't get it until they slam into a wall or the car ahead of them
approaching slower traffic hiding in the road spray of the vehicle ahead
because they're following too close).

People have fought a speeding ticket on this basis and have won.
That's part of the reason why Pa. gives some leeway. Most cops don't
want to have to appear in traffic court when the chances are good the
case could get thrown out. However, it's a lot harder to make a case
for speedometer inaccuracies when you're 10 MPH or more over.

I used to have to deal with police a lot when I was a security officer, and
at one site, the worksite's driveway was a common spot for police to set up
speed traps. The cops don't even bother radar cars until they see someone
moving considerably faster than surrounding traffic, radar the overspeed
vehicle for evidence, and just use the posted speed as something to
estimate a fine from.

That's pretty much what they do here as well. In the state of Pa.,
RADAR is only allowed to be used by the state police (You actually
have to be "certified" to use it). The locals use VASCAR, which is why
there are so many white painted lines across the road (Which also
gives alert drivers a heads-up as to where the speed traps will
usually be).


They seem to radar everyone in areas where there are actual speed limits
when I see a speed trap in a limit zone. Though I never see anybody pulled
over, everybody just slows down for the speed limit and then drops the
hammer down when it goes back to a posted speed a few miles down the road.

That's the whole basis of the "Smokey Reports" that run across the CB.
At first the cops were ****ed at this method of circumventing the law
(As they are with flashing headlights). Now the cops use it to their
advantage. Sometimes they park an unmanned car near a busy highway and
let the CB'ers pass the word, and everyone slows down, which is all
they wanted anyway.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

Dave Hall wrote:

Yes, you probably should. But periodic speedometer calibration is not
on the list of "maintenance" items in the owner's manuals, nor is it
required as a part of (At least in my state) annual inspection. I'm
not even sure if anyone (other than the dealer) can even perform such
a service. It's clearly not something they advertise.

Any custom shop or instrument shop can recalibrate your speedometer for
hardly more than pocket change. There's really no excuse for not getting
it done.

That's pretty much what they do here as well. In the state of Pa.,
RADAR is only allowed to be used by the state police (You actually
have to be "certified" to use it). The locals use VASCAR, which is why
there are so many white painted lines across the road (Which also
gives alert drivers a heads-up as to where the speed traps will
usually be).

Lucky you. All departments use laser here. Your detector won't go off
until the cop is actually checking your speed (in which it's too late). My
theory is, if you're driving too fast to see the speed trap, you're driving
too fast to spot a real hazard at that speed. Nothing like having
rush-hour traffic shut down because some jackass driving 60 in dense fog
creams a deer on the freeway.

That's the whole basis of the "Smokey Reports" that run across the CB.

Yeah, I'm usually the one spotting them, I know how they work. 8:O)

Sometimes they park an unmanned car near a busy highway and
let the CB'ers pass the word, and everyone slows down, which is all
they wanted anyway.

You must have an amazingly rich police department if they're able to have
expensive surplus equipment to play games with like that.

--
Paul Johnson

http://ursine.ca/~baloo/

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:38:22 -0800, Paul Johnson
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:

Yes, you probably should. But periodic speedometer calibration is not
on the list of "maintenance" items in the owner's manuals, nor is it
required as a part of (At least in my state) annual inspection. I'm
not even sure if anyone (other than the dealer) can even perform such
a service. It's clearly not something they advertise.

Any custom shop or instrument shop can recalibrate your speedometer for
hardly more than pocket change. There's really no excuse for not getting
it done.

Just for kicks and grins, when I was at the local auto parts/garage
the other day, I asked in a matter-of-fact way if they did speedo
cal's. The guy looked at me like I grew a second head.

Yes, I imagine there are shops who can handle this. But with the newer
OBD-II ECM system on modern cars, the speedo is often a little more
complex than a simple mechanical pointer. Other than the few specialty
shops and the dealer, I doubt if the typical generic garages that most
people go to can handle it. Most people avoid the dealer once their
warranties expires as they're generally more expensive than the local
garage. It's just not something that anyone talks about.


That's pretty much what they do here as well. In the state of Pa.,
RADAR is only allowed to be used by the state police (You actually
have to be "certified" to use it). The locals use VASCAR, which is why
there are so many white painted lines across the road (Which also
gives alert drivers a heads-up as to where the speed traps will
usually be).

Lucky you. All departments use laser here. Your detector won't go off
until the cop is actually checking your speed (in which it's too late).

Detectors are ineffective against VASCAR as there is no "beam". It's
simple mechanical timing. But the manual nature of this technique is
what opens the door to inaccuracy claims when someone is cited for
going a scant 1 MPH over.

http://www.vascarplus.com/Pages/How_it_works.htm


My
theory is, if you're driving too fast to see the speed trap, you're driving
too fast to spot a real hazard at that speed. Nothing like having
rush-hour traffic shut down because some jackass driving 60 in dense fog
creams a deer on the freeway.

I hear that.

That's the whole basis of the "Smokey Reports" that run across the CB.

Yeah, I'm usually the one spotting them, I know how they work. 8:O)

Sometimes they park an unmanned car near a busy highway and
let the CB'ers pass the word, and everyone slows down, which is all
they wanted anyway.

You must have an amazingly rich police department if they're able to have
expensive surplus equipment to play games with like that.

It all depends on your perspective. If that parked car prevents
accidents, the money saved on emergency response services more than
makes up for the loss of an "active" patrol car.

Dave
"Sandbagger"
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

Vinnie S. wrote:

No they don't. The speed limits signs or laws do not say 55 or 65, +/-
10%.

That is nothing more than the descretion of the cop that tickets you.

Go read ORS chapter 810 sometime. It's up on leg.state.or.us. It does work
that way in Oregon. And as said before, save for a few miles of interstate
or a few well-travelled blocks of narrow secondary streets, Oregon has
never had speed limits. Posted speeds, yes, in which you're allowed to
drive faster if conditions warrant (on a clear, sunny day with dry pavement
and light traffic with a posted speed of 70, a cop pulling you over for
doing 85 will have a hard time getting a conviction in court unless it was
a LIMIT 70 and not a SPEED 70 sign and the cops know this).

Oregon and Washington both give 10% margins for differences in speedometer
calibration because very rarely are speedometers spot on. You could easily
be doing 59 with your speedometer reading 55. The speedometer in my 1995.5
Kia Sportage reads 62 when it's doing 60, my roommate's 2000 Ford Ranger
reads 57 at 60 MPH. If you got a ticket for doing 1 MPH over the speed
limit, and you didn't fight it in court, you're a moron, here's your sign.

--
Paul Johnson

http://ursine.ca/~baloo/

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:29:17 -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:

No they don't. The speed limits signs or laws do not say 55 or 65, +/-
10%.

That is nothing more than the descretion of the cop that tickets you.

Go read ORS chapter 810 sometime. It's up on leg.state.or.us. It does work
that way in Oregon. And as said before, save for a few miles of interstate
or a few well-travelled blocks of narrow secondary streets, Oregon has
never had speed limits. Posted speeds, yes, in which you're allowed to
drive faster if conditions warrant (on a clear, sunny day with dry pavement
and light traffic with a posted speed of 70, a cop pulling you over for
doing 85 will have a hard time getting a conviction in court unless it was
a LIMIT 70 and not a SPEED 70 sign and the cops know this).

Oregon and Washington both give 10% margins for differences in speedometer
calibration because very rarely are speedometers spot on. You could easily
be doing 59 with your speedometer reading 55. The speedometer in my 1995.5
Kia Sportage reads 62 when it's doing 60, my roommate's 2000 Ford Ranger
reads 57 at 60 MPH. If you got a ticket for doing 1 MPH over the speed
limit, and you didn't fight it in court, you're a moron, here's your sign.


Paul,

I don't know about Oregon, but I know NJ. I have never heard of such a thing.
And I have been to traffic court on at least 3 occasions. On one occasion, some
motorist used the calibration defense. They about laughed him out of the court,
and said they would bring in the cop with the certs. He ended up pleaing to a
lower moving violation qwith no points. Believe it or not, they actually plea
bargain here for traffic court. They want the dollar amount fine, and ill lower
the violation so it doesn't kill you for insurance.

As far as my personal experience, I was given a ticket around 1991 for 59 in a
55. I pleaded guilty to a reduce "driving too slow", which carried the same
fine, but no points. The other carried 2 points. So you manual is of no use to
me or motorists in NJ.

And the only reason I fought 3 tickets, was because I was told you can get the
points knocked down in court. The officers will actually tell you that. But if
you just pay it, you get the points.

I did go to trial one of those 3 times (bargained the other 2), and beat a
ticket for rolling stop. A cop was at a stop trap where many motorists were
rolling thru it. He gave about 150 tickets over a course of a weekend. I fought
mine, because he missed my stop. He had 2 motorists pulled over and was on foot
getting their documents, and he looked at the corner, I had already stopped and
was moving, and he waved me over. I was nonetheless not cooperative. The DA
wanted to bargain that too, but the fine was like $180. I said i was going to
fight it, and he basically laughed. He said it was a sure fire loss. At the
trial, which was about 20 minutes long, the officer needed to look at the ticket
to read what car I was driving. And he said he pulled me over with his car after
rolling thru a stop. I got him on him not remembering my carwithout reading the
ticket, and that he was on foot with 2 other vehicles, and did not pull me over
with his car. The judge ruled in my favor, but he didn't rule on it that night,
to give me the satifaction in court. Instead, he sent his not guilty decision by
mail, 2 days later. I never did go back to the prosecutor and show him the
letter.

So like I said, It's mostly at the descretion of the cop. And FYI, you can be
going 56 in a 55, and if he wants to stop you and say you were doing 75 in a 55,
even though you did 56, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

Vinnie S.

Vinnie S. wrote:

So like I said, It's mostly at the descretion of the cop. And FYI, you can
be going 56 in a 55, and if he wants to stop you and say you were doing 75
in a 55, even though you did 56, there isn't a damn thing you can do about
it.

Sure there is. Challenge him in court using his radar gun as evidence
against him. If it recorded 56 and he's claiming 75, any of the following
could happen in Oregon: Charges dismissed on the 10% rule, charges
dismissed because the speed was reasonable for the conditions and the speed
was simply a posted advised speed and not a limit (universal speed rule),
or charges dismissed on the grounds of false testimony on the part of the
police officer (pretty much gauranteed to end his law enforcement career,
he'd have a *damn* hard time getting a job even as a rent-a-cop with that
on his record).

Your best defense is to learn the local law and obey it. Oregon tends to be
pretty lax because 1) you can go hundreds of miles without encountering
anything to hit, and 2) almost all traffic tickets handed out are to
Californians, who don't have to pass a test to get a license[1].

[1] If you don't know the answer on the test, you can ask the clerk and get
as many right answers as you need just for the asking, and I can't recall
ever seeing anybody taking a driving test at the CA DMVs. I never bothered
driving in California when I got stuck moving down there for a few years,
it's not hard to get a ride down there if you can get the nerve up with
riding with an essentially unlicensed driver.

--
Paul Johnson

http://ursine.ca/~baloo/

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:37:48 -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:

Vinnie S. wrote:

So like I said, It's mostly at the descretion of the cop. And FYI, you can
be going 56 in a 55, and if he wants to stop you and say you were doing 75
in a 55, even though you did 56, there isn't a damn thing you can do about
it.

Sure there is. Challenge him in court using his radar gun as evidence
against him. If it recorded 56 and he's claiming 75, any of the following
could happen in Oregon:


As far as I know, there is no printed history of a radar reading. Granted 99.9%
of the time, they will write yoy up for what you sped at. But I don't think
there is a shred of evidence you can use. Not even eyewitnesses.

Charges dismissed on the 10% rule, charges
dismissed because the speed was reasonable for the conditions and the speed
was simply a posted advised speed and not a limit (universal speed rule),
or charges dismissed on the grounds of false testimony on the part of the
police officer (pretty much gauranteed to end his law enforcement career,
he'd have a *damn* hard time getting a job even as a rent-a-cop with that
on his record).

Your best defense is to learn the local law and obey it. Oregon tends to be
pretty lax because 1) you can go hundreds of miles without encountering
anything to hit, and 2) almost all traffic tickets handed out are to
Californians, who don't have to pass a test to get a license[1].

Again, here in NJ, it is a revenue generating system. Like I said, they just
want their fined, and not put you in your insurance poor house. The officers
have told me to challenge, because they reduce it to no points.


[1] If you don't know the answer on the test, you can ask the clerk and get
as many right answers as you need just for the asking, and I can't recall
ever seeing anybody taking a driving test at the CA DMVs. I never bothered
driving in California when I got stuck moving down there for a few years,
it's not hard to get a ride down there if you can get the nerve up with
riding with an essentially unlicensed driver.


I can tell you this. Aside from full serve gas, NJ and Oregon are worlds apart.

Vinnie S.