"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 May 2005 10:37:09 -0400, (I
AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:

How many links do you need, Dave?


Just one good and accurate one would be nice, but you haven't posted
any. Just snippets of your own out of context interpretations of some
biased, agenda-driven news report.

Post the whole link, you know, something that begins with "http://",
so we can all read it.

Dave
"Sandbagger"


Hello, Dave


I ranted a bit about our deficit and economy. We know many jobs went to
Mexico and now to China.

Yep, we are the real technocracy leaders. Guess who launched Direct TV's
new satellite? Perhaps I should send you a link:
http://www.universetoday.com/am/publ...8.html?2352005

Really reassuring, isn't it.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim

On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:25:28 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 24 May 2005 10:37:09 -0400, (I
AmnotGeorgeBush) wrote:

How many links do you need, Dave?


Just one good and accurate one would be nice, but you haven't posted
any. Just snippets of your own out of context interpretations of some
biased, agenda-driven news report.

Post the whole link, you know, something that begins with "http://",
so we can all read it.

Dave
"Sandbagger"


Hello, Dave


I ranted a bit about our deficit and economy. We know many jobs went to
Mexico and now to China.

Yep, we are the real technocracy leaders. Guess who launched Direct TV's
new satellite? Perhaps I should send you a link:
http://www.universetoday.com/am/publ...8.html?2352005

Really reassuring, isn't it.


Outsourcing is inevitable until the standard of living in the rest of
the world equalizes with our own.

It's not good news for us, but it's an unfortunate reality.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:12:20 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:

Outsourcing is inevitable until the standard of living in the rest of
the world equalizes with our own.

It's not good news for us, but it's an unfortunate reality.
******

You will sing a different tune when your $60K per yr job goes to China
and your planned retirement of $120K+ dwindles down to $36K per yr.

Think who benifits from outsourcing?

Corporations. Why?

Consumers demand lower prices and Corparations are doing their best to
give the consumers what they want. Sorry but cheap prices can't go on
for ever. Once the world's cheap labor is exploited, consumer prices
will rise like a Proton Rocket.

What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes as the world's standard of living increases, so will inflation. I
forsee 10 to 20% annual inflation rates somewhere in the 2030 to 2040
time frame. By then the world will dream of 4% inflation rates.

Out sourcing is eventually going to drag the US' standard of living
down to the rest of the world's as their's rises towards. You can't
get something for nothing. In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .


james

James:

Gesus man, you are RIGHT ON!!!

Warmest regards,
John

"james" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:12:20 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:

Outsourcing is inevitable until the standard of living in the rest of
the world equalizes with our own.

It's not good news for us, but it's an unfortunate reality.
******

You will sing a different tune when your $60K per yr job goes to China
and your planned retirement of $120K+ dwindles down to $36K per yr.

Think who benifits from outsourcing?

Corporations. Why?

Consumers demand lower prices and Corparations are doing their best to
give the consumers what they want. Sorry but cheap prices can't go on
for ever. Once the world's cheap labor is exploited, consumer prices
will rise like a Proton Rocket.

What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes as the world's standard of living increases, so will inflation. I
forsee 10 to 20% annual inflation rates somewhere in the 2030 to 2040
time frame. By then the world will dream of 4% inflation rates.

Out sourcing is eventually going to drag the US' standard of living
down to the rest of the world's as their's rises towards. You can't
get something for nothing. In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .


james

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
James:

Gesus man, you are RIGHT ON!!!

Warmest regards,
John

"james" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:12:20 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:

Outsourcing is inevitable until the standard of living in the rest of
the world equalizes with our own.

It's not good news for us, but it's an unfortunate reality.
******

You will sing a different tune when your $60K per yr job goes to China
and your planned retirement of $120K+ dwindles down to $36K per yr.

Think who benifits from outsourcing?

Corporations. Why?

Consumers demand lower prices and Corparations are doing their best to
give the consumers what they want. Sorry but cheap prices can't go on
for ever. Once the world's cheap labor is exploited, consumer prices
will rise like a Proton Rocket.

What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes as the world's standard of living increases, so will inflation. I
forsee 10 to 20% annual inflation rates somewhere in the 2030 to 2040
time frame. By then the world will dream of 4% inflation rates.

Out sourcing is eventually going to drag the US' standard of living
down to the rest of the world's as their's rises towards. You can't
get something for nothing. In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .


james


Hello, James

I don't know how much of the world will see huge inflation, but I will
guarantee we, in the United States, *will* see it if the huge deficits
aren't corrected.

Taxes are going to have to rise (actually, at the local level they are -
sales tax, fees, etc.). Ever notice the "FCC fee" on your telephone bill?
Eventually, they are going to have to tap the wealthy (including the capital
gains), but if they wait too long, it will be too late. My guess is that if
the Republicans loose some elections, the Democrats will raise taxes (which
should have already been done, considering the deficit). Then, the
Republicans will have new ammunition for the next elections.

Regardless, the Federal deficit, in my mind, is the most dangerous thing for
the United States at this point in mind (closely followed by the current
administration).


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim

On Wed, 25 May 2005 20:26:51 GMT, james wrote:

On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:12:20 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:

Outsourcing is inevitable until the standard of living in the rest of
the world equalizes with our own.

It's not good news for us, but it's an unfortunate reality.
******

You will sing a different tune when your $60K per yr job goes to China
and your planned retirement of $120K+ dwindles down to $36K per yr.

Why would I sing a different tune? The reality is the same whether I'm
directly affected by it or not. I never said it was a good thing for
American workers, but it is an understandable trend considering the
economic dynamics of the world market.


Think who benifits from outsourcing?

Long term or short?


Corporations. Why?

Consumers demand lower prices and Corparations are doing their best to
give the consumers what they want. Sorry but cheap prices can't go on
for ever. Once the world's cheap labor is exploited, consumer prices
will rise like a Proton Rocket.

So, here we have a double edged sword. We live in a world economy,
with companies from all over the world competing for market share. So,
what's a U.S. based corporation to do? Should it:

A. Keep its U.S. work force in order to altruistically keep the
American work force employed?

B. Outsource to a foreign country where labor and overhead is much
cheaper?

Considering that other countries have no objection to using cheap
foreign labor, and producing products cheaper, the U.S. company is now
at a competitive disadvantage with those products which they are in
direct competition from foreign companies.

Tell me, would you pay 50 - 100% more for a TV or some other product
just to keep the U.S. company here? Considering that the government is
squeezing more and more money out of us in the form of taxes, and the
costs of things like fuel are skyrocketing, we look for the best
bargains in everything we buy.

And that doesn't cover the foreign market. Would a European pay more
for a U.S. made product over a foreign made product?

What ultimately happens to a U.S. corporation who loses a competitive
edge?


What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes, inflation is a very real fear. But when the standard of living
equalizes, then there will be no further incentive to manufacture
overseas. Then factors such as shipping costs will make domestic
manufacturing attractive again for the U.S. market. Inflation may also
be mitigated by market pressures. If people cannot afford to buy as
much, demand goes down. When demand goes down, so does the price.
That's free market 101.


Yes as the world's standard of living increases, so will inflation. I
forsee 10 to 20% annual inflation rates somewhere in the 2030 to 2040
time frame. By then the world will dream of 4% inflation rates.


Out sourcing is eventually going to drag the US' standard of living
down to the rest of the world's as their's rises towards.

That's what I meant when I said equalize the world's standard of
living. Not only will the 3rd world catch up, but we will fall
somewhat. That is the price we pay for living in a world market. 50
years ago, when most of our goods were made here, we controlled the
market. Now we're just one of many players.


You can't get something for nothing.

You don't know just how much truth there is in that statement.

In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .

Ok, We pretty much agree that the road ahead will be a bit bumpy. So
what do we do about it? Can we do anything about it?

On Thu, 26 May 2005 07:57:10 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

snip
So, here we have a double edged sword. We live in a world economy,
with companies from all over the world competing for market share. So,
what's a U.S. based corporation to do? Should it:

A. Keep its U.S. work force in order to altruistically keep the
American work force employed?

B. Outsource to a foreign country where labor and overhead is much
cheaper?


The answer is A because loyalty must be earned, and American's have a
very good long-term memory.


Considering that other countries have no objection to using cheap
foreign labor, and producing products cheaper, the U.S. company is now
at a competitive disadvantage with those products which they are in
direct competition from foreign companies.


American workers could be easily protected with import tariffs; but
Bush's butt has been kissed (and licked, sucked, wiped and powdered)
by corporations seeking cheap labor, so he is pushing for open-border
trade agreements with third-world countries.


Tell me, would you pay 50 - 100% more for a TV or some other product
just to keep the U.S. company here? Considering that the government is
squeezing more and more money out of us in the form of taxes, and the
costs of things like fuel are skyrocketing, we look for the best
bargains in everything we buy.


Because the taxes are on the Americans, not on the import corporations
(e.g, Walmart, aka 'China Inc.') where they should be.


And that doesn't cover the foreign market. Would a European pay more
for a U.S. made product over a foreign made product?


Depends on where that 'foreign' product was made.


What ultimately happens to a U.S. corporation who loses a competitive
edge?


Any US corp that chooses to cut American jobs instead of lobbying for
import tariffs against foreign competitors is, in the most tactful of
terms, economically nearsighted.


What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes, inflation is a very real fear.


No, it's not. It's a hope. Inflation, in a free market economy, is an
'equalizer' -- it's an effect of a surplus of cash in circulation,
which usually ends up in the hands of those who need it the most.
Historically, inflation hurts the rich and benefits the poor, which is
something you never hear from the "left-wing, liberally biased media".


But when the standard of living
equalizes, then there will be no further incentive to manufacture
overseas. Then factors such as shipping costs will make domestic
manufacturing attractive again for the U.S. market. Inflation may also
be mitigated by market pressures. If people cannot afford to buy as
much, demand goes down. When demand goes down, so does the price.
That's free market 101.


You obviously failed Economics 101, and probably never took Macro- or
Micro-Economics.


Yes as the world's standard of living increases, so will inflation. I
forsee 10 to 20% annual inflation rates somewhere in the 2030 to 2040
time frame. By then the world will dream of 4% inflation rates.


Out sourcing is eventually going to drag the US' standard of living
down to the rest of the world's as their's rises towards.

That's what I meant when I said equalize the world's standard of
living. Not only will the 3rd world catch up, but we will fall
somewhat. That is the price we pay for living in a world market. 50
years ago, when most of our goods were made here, we controlled the
market. Now we're just one of many players.


Cheap labor will always be available in any country that's poor in
natural resources. There are many, and that's not going to change
anytime soon. The fact that Iraq's new "government" refused to allow
labor unions (a law imposed by Saddam) should be a good indication as
to where the next market for cheap labor will be found.


You can't get something for nothing.

You don't know just how much truth there is in that statement.


Damn straight. Freedom isn't free. Other people paid for your
freedoms, Dave. Maybe you should take the time to try and understand
why.


In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .

Ok, We pretty much agree that the road ahead will be a bit bumpy. So
what do we do about it? Can we do anything about it?


Push your elected officials to do their job -- make them understand
that they are lobbyists for their constituents, not the constituents
of lobbyists for special interest groups or corporations.








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On Wed, 25 May 2005 07:14:41 -0700, Frank Gilliland
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 07:57:10 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

snip
So, here we have a double edged sword. We live in a world economy,
with companies from all over the world competing for market share. So,
what's a U.S. based corporation to do? Should it:

A. Keep its U.S. work force in order to altruistically keep the
American work force employed?

B. Outsource to a foreign country where labor and overhead is much
cheaper?


The answer is A because loyalty must be earned, and American's have a
very good long-term memory.

Even if the American company is forced out of business by cheaper
foreign competitors?


Considering that other countries have no objection to using cheap
foreign labor, and producing products cheaper, the U.S. company is now
at a competitive disadvantage with those products which they are in
direct competition from foreign companies.


American workers could be easily protected with import tariffs; but
Bush's butt has been kissed (and licked, sucked, wiped and powdered)
by corporations seeking cheap labor, so he is pushing for open-border
trade agreements with third-world countries.

Tariffs are an overly naive and simplistic answer, which will not
help. I'll tell you why. First off, the import tariff will raise the
price of imported goods which drive up the costs that the American
consumer pays. Then the worker will demand more in raises to
compensate, and you now have inflation. Secondly, the U.S. is but ONE
consumer of goods. American companies trying to compete in foreign
markets will not have the protection of the tariff and they will
wither under strong foreign competition which they will not be able to
match. Also, other countries do not like tariff policies and would
likely impose tariffs on our goods in retaliation to our tariffs on
theirs. Surely you can figure out what would happen then.


Tell me, would you pay 50 - 100% more for a TV or some other product
just to keep the U.S. company here? Considering that the government is
squeezing more and more money out of us in the form of taxes, and the
costs of things like fuel are skyrocketing, we look for the best
bargains in everything we buy.


Because the taxes are on the Americans, not on the import corporations
(e.g, Walmart, aka 'China Inc.') where they should be.

See above.



And that doesn't cover the foreign market. Would a European pay more
for a U.S. made product over a foreign made product?


Depends on where that 'foreign' product was made.

Does it matter? If it's cheaper, they will buy it.



What ultimately happens to a U.S. corporation who loses a competitive
edge?


Any US corp that chooses to cut American jobs instead of lobbying for
import tariffs against foreign competitors is, in the most tactful of
terms, economically nearsighted.

So, then, you would rather an American company keep it's American
workforce in a patriotic corporate suicide attempt, as it folds under
unmatchable competition from abroad? What if all US companies fold or
move their corporate headquarters offshore? Then what?


What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes, inflation is a very real fear.


No, it's not. It's a hope. Inflation, in a free market economy, is an
'equalizer' -- it's an effect of a surplus of cash in circulation,
which usually ends up in the hands of those who need it the most.
Historically, inflation hurts the rich and benefits the poor, which is
something you never hear from the "left-wing, liberally biased media".

Well that's true to an extent. Those who invest their money in fixed
rate securities (retired people) will earn more interest, while those
seeking to borrow, will pay more. But the rich are who generally
create the jobs that the rest of us work at. If inflation cuts into
their costs too much, they will have to reduce the workforce or make
other cuts (outsource?) to keep the margins.


But when the standard of living
equalizes, then there will be no further incentive to manufacture
overseas. Then factors such as shipping costs will make domestic
manufacturing attractive again for the U.S. market. Inflation may also
be mitigated by market pressures. If people cannot afford to buy as
much, demand goes down. When demand goes down, so does the price.
That's free market 101.


You obviously failed Economics 101, and probably never took Macro- or
Micro-Economics.

Sigh. You can't get through a post without an insult can you Mr
Bartender?


Cheap labor will always be available in any country that's poor in
natural resources. There are many, and that's not going to change
anytime soon. The fact that Iraq's new "government" refused to allow
labor unions (a law imposed by Saddam) should be a good indication as
to where the next market for cheap labor will be found.

But Iraq is not poor in natural resources.

You can't get something for nothing.

You don't know just how much truth there is in that statement.


Damn straight. Freedom isn't free. Other people paid for your
freedoms, Dave. Maybe you should take the time to try and understand
why.

I know that freedom is not unlimited.


In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .

Ok, We pretty much agree that the road ahead will be a bit bumpy. So
what do we do about it? Can we do anything about it?


Push your elected officials to do their job -- make them understand
that they are lobbyists for their constituents, not the constituents
of lobbyists for special interest groups or corporations.

Well then we need to outlaw all corporate election contributions.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

On Thu, 26 May 2005 15:05:25 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

On Wed, 25 May 2005 07:14:41 -0700, Frank Gilliland
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 07:57:10 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

snip
So, here we have a double edged sword. We live in a world economy,
with companies from all over the world competing for market share. So,
what's a U.S. based corporation to do? Should it:

A. Keep its U.S. work force in order to altruistically keep the
American work force employed?

B. Outsource to a foreign country where labor and overhead is much
cheaper?


The answer is A because loyalty must be earned, and American's have a
very good long-term memory.

Even if the American company is forced out of business by cheaper
foreign competitors?


Obviously you didn't read the entire post before starting your reply.


Considering that other countries have no objection to using cheap
foreign labor, and producing products cheaper, the U.S. company is now
at a competitive disadvantage with those products which they are in
direct competition from foreign companies.


American workers could be easily protected with import tariffs; but
Bush's butt has been kissed (and licked, sucked, wiped and powdered)
by corporations seeking cheap labor, so he is pushing for open-border
trade agreements with third-world countries.

Tariffs are an overly naive and simplistic answer, which will not
help. I'll tell you why. First off, the import tariff will raise the
price of imported goods which drive up the costs that the American
consumer pays. Then the worker will demand more in raises to
compensate, and you now have inflation.


Wrong. Import tariffs drive up the cost of -imported- products, which
in turn encourages -domestic- production and manufacturing. The prices
will go up, as will the wages; but the overall effect is that the
domestic economy is stimulated, which more than compensates for any
short-term dips. And for the record, it also reduces the amount paid
for welfare since more people are working.


Secondly, the U.S. is but ONE
consumer of goods. American companies trying to compete in foreign
markets will not have the protection of the tariff and they will
wither under strong foreign competition which they will not be able to
match. Also, other countries do not like tariff policies and would
likely impose tariffs on our goods in retaliation to our tariffs on
theirs. Surely you can figure out what would happen then.


Wrong on both counts. American innovation and technology is, and has
always been, one of the primary exports of this country. Stimulate the
industrial base and you stimulate people and businesses to be more
innovative (instead of using the word as an advertising gimmick).


Tell me, would you pay 50 - 100% more for a TV or some other product
just to keep the U.S. company here? Considering that the government is
squeezing more and more money out of us in the form of taxes, and the
costs of things like fuel are skyrocketing, we look for the best
bargains in everything we buy.


Because the taxes are on the Americans, not on the import corporations
(e.g, Walmart, aka 'China Inc.') where they should be.

See above.



And that doesn't cover the foreign market. Would a European pay more
for a U.S. made product over a foreign made product?


Depends on where that 'foreign' product was made.

Does it matter? If it's cheaper, they will buy it.


I guess that's why Mercedes, Jags and BMW's sell so well, huh? Didn't
you learn anything in our discussion about how a quality education is
often preferred over a lesser degree? If you did, what part of your
brain is unable to apply the underlying concept to other situations?


What ultimately happens to a U.S. corporation who loses a competitive
edge?


Any US corp that chooses to cut American jobs instead of lobbying for
import tariffs against foreign competitors is, in the most tactful of
terms, economically nearsighted.

So, then, you would rather an American company keep it's American
workforce in a patriotic corporate suicide attempt, as it folds under
unmatchable competition from abroad? What if all US companies fold or
move their corporate headquarters offshore? Then what?


What if all US companies lobbied for import tariffs?


What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes, inflation is a very real fear.


No, it's not. It's a hope. Inflation, in a free market economy, is an
'equalizer' -- it's an effect of a surplus of cash in circulation,
which usually ends up in the hands of those who need it the most.
Historically, inflation hurts the rich and benefits the poor, which is
something you never hear from the "left-wing, liberally biased media".

Well that's true to an extent. Those who invest their money in fixed
rate securities (retired people) will earn more interest, while those
seeking to borrow, will pay more. But the rich are who generally
create the jobs that the rest of us work at.


Wrong. The failure of Reaganomics proved that people create their own
jobs when the rich get too greedy. They do so out of necessity.


If inflation cuts into
their costs too much, they will have to reduce the workforce or make
other cuts (outsource?) to keep the margins.


It really doesn't matter since the US is no longer a free-market
economy -- the Federal Reserve has tight (and probably illegal)
control over the money supply and keeps the inflation rate down
artificially.


But when the standard of living
equalizes, then there will be no further incentive to manufacture
overseas. Then factors such as shipping costs will make domestic
manufacturing attractive again for the U.S. market. Inflation may also
be mitigated by market pressures. If people cannot afford to buy as
much, demand goes down. When demand goes down, so does the price.
That's free market 101.


You obviously failed Economics 101, and probably never took Macro- or
Micro-Economics.

Sigh. You can't get through a post without an insult can you Mr
Bartender?


Nope. Can you get through a post without a demonstration of your
ignorance and lack of education?


Cheap labor will always be available in any country that's poor in
natural resources. There are many, and that's not going to change
anytime soon. The fact that Iraq's new "government" refused to allow
labor unions (a law imposed by Saddam) should be a good indication as
to where the next market for cheap labor will be found.

But Iraq is not poor in natural resources.


But Iraq's natural resources are only partially owned and controlled
by Iraq. They were fully owned by Iraq under Saddam, but after his
overthrow many international conglomerates (mostly US and UK oil
companies, most of which include the Bush family as stockholders)
invoked claims that existed prior to Saddam. The people of Iraq are
going to see hardly any of the money that comes from their own
resources -- instead it's going right into the pockets of oil company
fat-cats.


You can't get something for nothing.

You don't know just how much truth there is in that statement.


Damn straight. Freedom isn't free. Other people paid for your
freedoms, Dave. Maybe you should take the time to try and understand
why.

I know that freedom is not unlimited.


Freedom isn't free. Period. Quit being a dumbass and learn why.


In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .

Ok, We pretty much agree that the road ahead will be a bit bumpy. So
what do we do about it? Can we do anything about it?


Push your elected officials to do their job -- make them understand
that they are lobbyists for their constituents, not the constituents
of lobbyists for special interest groups or corporations.

Well then we need to outlaw all corporate election contributions.


Well gee, Dave, what a novel idea.







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Did you miss this post, too, Dave? Well, here it is again:


On Thu, 26 May 2005 15:05:25 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

On Wed, 25 May 2005 07:14:41 -0700, Frank Gilliland
wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2005 07:57:10 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

snip
So, here we have a double edged sword. We live in a world economy,
with companies from all over the world competing for market share. So,
what's a U.S. based corporation to do? Should it:

A. Keep its U.S. work force in order to altruistically keep the
American work force employed?

B. Outsource to a foreign country where labor and overhead is much
cheaper?


The answer is A because loyalty must be earned, and American's have a
very good long-term memory.

Even if the American company is forced out of business by cheaper
foreign competitors?


Obviously you didn't read the entire post before starting your reply.


Considering that other countries have no objection to using cheap
foreign labor, and producing products cheaper, the U.S. company is now
at a competitive disadvantage with those products which they are in
direct competition from foreign companies.


American workers could be easily protected with import tariffs; but
Bush's butt has been kissed (and licked, sucked, wiped and powdered)
by corporations seeking cheap labor, so he is pushing for open-border
trade agreements with third-world countries.

Tariffs are an overly naive and simplistic answer, which will not
help. I'll tell you why. First off, the import tariff will raise the
price of imported goods which drive up the costs that the American
consumer pays. Then the worker will demand more in raises to
compensate, and you now have inflation.


Wrong. Import tariffs drive up the cost of -imported- products, which
in turn encourages -domestic- production and manufacturing. The prices
will go up, as will the wages; but the overall effect is that the
domestic economy is stimulated, which more than compensates for any
short-term dips. And for the record, it also reduces the amount paid
for welfare since more people are working.


Secondly, the U.S. is but ONE
consumer of goods. American companies trying to compete in foreign
markets will not have the protection of the tariff and they will
wither under strong foreign competition which they will not be able to
match. Also, other countries do not like tariff policies and would
likely impose tariffs on our goods in retaliation to our tariffs on
theirs. Surely you can figure out what would happen then.


Wrong on both counts. American innovation and technology is, and has
always been, one of the primary exports of this country. Stimulate the
industrial base and you stimulate people and businesses to be more
innovative (instead of using the word as an advertising gimmick).


Tell me, would you pay 50 - 100% more for a TV or some other product
just to keep the U.S. company here? Considering that the government is
squeezing more and more money out of us in the form of taxes, and the
costs of things like fuel are skyrocketing, we look for the best
bargains in everything we buy.


Because the taxes are on the Americans, not on the import corporations
(e.g, Walmart, aka 'China Inc.') where they should be.

See above.



And that doesn't cover the foreign market. Would a European pay more
for a U.S. made product over a foreign made product?


Depends on where that 'foreign' product was made.

Does it matter? If it's cheaper, they will buy it.


I guess that's why Mercedes, Jags and BMW's sell so well, huh? Didn't
you learn anything in our discussion about how a quality education is
often preferred over a lesser degree? If you did, what part of your
brain is unable to apply the underlying concept to other situations?


What ultimately happens to a U.S. corporation who loses a competitive
edge?


Any US corp that chooses to cut American jobs instead of lobbying for
import tariffs against foreign competitors is, in the most tactful of
terms, economically nearsighted.

So, then, you would rather an American company keep it's American
workforce in a patriotic corporate suicide attempt, as it folds under
unmatchable competition from abroad? What if all US companies fold or
move their corporate headquarters offshore? Then what?


What if all US companies lobbied for import tariffs?


What happens when there are no more cheap labor countries like China?
Can you spell double digit inflation??? How about 20% per yr for about
ten yrs. Maybe even longer or higher inflation rates.

Yes, inflation is a very real fear.


No, it's not. It's a hope. Inflation, in a free market economy, is an
'equalizer' -- it's an effect of a surplus of cash in circulation,
which usually ends up in the hands of those who need it the most.
Historically, inflation hurts the rich and benefits the poor, which is
something you never hear from the "left-wing, liberally biased media".

Well that's true to an extent. Those who invest their money in fixed
rate securities (retired people) will earn more interest, while those
seeking to borrow, will pay more. But the rich are who generally
create the jobs that the rest of us work at.


Wrong. The failure of Reaganomics proved that people create their own
jobs when the rich get too greedy. They do so out of necessity.


If inflation cuts into
their costs too much, they will have to reduce the workforce or make
other cuts (outsource?) to keep the margins.


It really doesn't matter since the US is no longer a free-market
economy -- the Federal Reserve has tight (and probably illegal)
control over the money supply and keeps the inflation rate down
artificially.


But when the standard of living
equalizes, then there will be no further incentive to manufacture
overseas. Then factors such as shipping costs will make domestic
manufacturing attractive again for the U.S. market. Inflation may also
be mitigated by market pressures. If people cannot afford to buy as
much, demand goes down. When demand goes down, so does the price.
That's free market 101.


You obviously failed Economics 101, and probably never took Macro- or
Micro-Economics.

Sigh. You can't get through a post without an insult can you Mr
Bartender?


Nope. Can you get through a post without a demonstration of your
ignorance and lack of education?


Cheap labor will always be available in any country that's poor in
natural resources. There are many, and that's not going to change
anytime soon. The fact that Iraq's new "government" refused to allow
labor unions (a law imposed by Saddam) should be a good indication as
to where the next market for cheap labor will be found.

But Iraq is not poor in natural resources.


But Iraq's natural resources are only partially owned and controlled
by Iraq. They were fully owned by Iraq under Saddam, but after his
overthrow many international conglomerates (mostly US and UK oil
companies, most of which include the Bush family as stockholders)
invoked claims that existed prior to Saddam. The people of Iraq are
going to see hardly any of the money that comes from their own
resources -- instead it's going right into the pockets of oil company
fat-cats.


You can't get something for nothing.

You don't know just how much truth there is in that statement.


Damn straight. Freedom isn't free. Other people paid for your
freedoms, Dave. Maybe you should take the time to try and understand
why.

I know that freedom is not unlimited.


Freedom isn't free. Period. Quit being a dumbass and learn why.


In time the US will suffer. Prepare for
China owning more an dmore of teh US debt and consequently the US'
economy .

Ok, We pretty much agree that the road ahead will be a bit bumpy. So
what do we do about it? Can we do anything about it?


Push your elected officials to do their job -- make them understand
that they are lobbyists for their constituents, not the constituents
of lobbyists for special interest groups or corporations.

Well then we need to outlaw all corporate election contributions.


Well gee, Dave, what a novel idea.





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