Dumb Questions - Part II FRS
 

Again, I'm not sure how well these questions match up to the group here...



The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.


How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?


How do they do in a suburban (moderately large houses, otherwise flat)
environment?



How do they do in the city? Are they multipath prone?



What weather conditions are worse? I assume heavy rain, but does fog
affect them? Will lightning a few miles away interfere with them severely?



Thanks again,
Cheers,
Alan.



--
--e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Cheers;
A

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Cheers;
A

On 04 May 2004 20:44:57 GMT, (AA) wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

Yes. Saying the range is UP TO 2 miles is like saying a lottery ticket
will win UP TO $1 million dollars.

In extreme circumstances, you might get a much longer range, but this
is more a fluke than something to count on. Terrain and architecture
will reduce the range further. Line of sight is what you will get

GMRS is not legal in Canada, the frequencies are assigned to another
service. FRS is perfectly fine.

From the OP:

How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

reduced somewhat from above

How do they do in a suburban (moderately large houses, otherwise flat)
environment?

Architecture will reduce range, especially whatever contains metal.

How do they do in the city? Are they multipath prone?

Various issues with metal structures. Assume reduced range.

What weather conditions are worse? I assume heavy rain, but does fog
affect them? Will lightning a few miles away interfere with them severely

Heavy rain may have some effect. As with any FM, lightning is far less
of an issue than with AM receivers.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Harder to find gear, but an option.

Since this is an amateur radio group, I will suggest that getting each
person in your group through the first level Technician license, or
the Canadan equivalent, and then getting basic 2M handheld units,
would be far more relaible and with greater range.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On 04 May 2004 20:44:57 GMT, (AA) wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

Yes. Saying the range is UP TO 2 miles is like saying a lottery ticket
will win UP TO $1 million dollars.

In extreme circumstances, you might get a much longer range, but this
is more a fluke than something to count on. Terrain and architecture
will reduce the range further. Line of sight is what you will get

GMRS is not legal in Canada, the frequencies are assigned to another
service. FRS is perfectly fine.

From the OP:

How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

reduced somewhat from above

How do they do in a suburban (moderately large houses, otherwise flat)
environment?

Architecture will reduce range, especially whatever contains metal.

How do they do in the city? Are they multipath prone?

Various issues with metal structures. Assume reduced range.

What weather conditions are worse? I assume heavy rain, but does fog
affect them? Will lightning a few miles away interfere with them severely

Heavy rain may have some effect. As with any FM, lightning is far less
of an issue than with AM receivers.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Harder to find gear, but an option.

Since this is an amateur radio group, I will suggest that getting each
person in your group through the first level Technician license, or
the Canadan equivalent, and then getting basic 2M handheld units,
would be far more relaible and with greater range.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

AA wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Cheers;
A



Thanks, I've never heard of MURS. I'll look into it. If I read the tea
leaves correctly, GMRS will be usable w/o a licence in Canada by the
fall. Might be worth waiting until then.

Cheers,
Alan

--
--e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

AA wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Cheers;
A



Thanks, I've never heard of MURS. I'll look into it. If I read the tea
leaves correctly, GMRS will be usable w/o a licence in Canada by the
fall. Might be worth waiting until then.

Cheers,
Alan

--
--e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Alan Browne ) writes:
AA wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Cheers;
A



Thanks, I've never heard of MURS. I'll look into it. If I read the tea
leaves correctly, GMRS will be usable w/o a licence in Canada by the
fall. Might be worth waiting until then.

Cheers,
Alan

But what tea leaves are you reading?

This sort of radio news is not the sort of thing we'd hear about in
the newspaper or on the local news. It might hit as such things become
legal, but I can't see much word about any impending rule change being
visible before the fact.

And after that, one has to judge the source of information. Tea leaves
aren't a good source. Even some guy saying somewhere that the rules might
change isn't a definitive source.

Now, if you actually go to the pertinent government site, then yes indeed
there does seem to be forthcoming rule changes to allow "GMRS" in Canada.
But that's not "tea leaves" or interpretation, it's an outright statement.

If you do a search on "GMRS canada" one site you hit is the Radio Amateurs
of Canada website, http://www.rac.ca They happen to have a page about
FRS in Canada, http://www.rac.ca/frs Now that page mentions GMRS and
MURS, but states they are not legal in Canada.

But there's a link to the Industries Canada website,
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca and if you go there and use "GMRS" for
a search, you get this page:
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter.../sf08144e.html
which is a policy paper on the government's intention to allow GMRS.
I've only looked at the synopsis, the whole paper is in pdf, but note
that at the very least, there will be a changeover period because
others are using that frequency range at the moment.

The Gazette notice about this, from March, suggesting it could come as
early as September 2004:
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter.../sf08145e.html

So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.

Michael VE2BVW

Alan Browne ) writes:
AA wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles. The
manufs mention terrain and weather as limitations.
How do they do in a wooded (flat) environment?

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.
The GMRS units will do better, as they're higher power out....but the licence
is $75 in the US...not sure what the deal is in Canada.

MURS (if legal in Ca.) is another good choice....if you can find the units.
FRS units are ubiquitious....MURS less so. The difference is frequency...MURS
is in the 155 mhz range, FRS is in the 462 mhz range. MURS also has no licence
requirements here, IIRC. They do well LOS and better than FRS (in my opinion)
non-LOS. I picked up a set of cheapie RatShak MURS mobiles and have had as
much as 10 mi. between them with decent reception. (external antenni) Don't
know how MURS is handled in Canada, do check with the local authorities.

Cheers;
A



Thanks, I've never heard of MURS. I'll look into it. If I read the tea
leaves correctly, GMRS will be usable w/o a licence in Canada by the
fall. Might be worth waiting until then.

Cheers,
Alan

But what tea leaves are you reading?

This sort of radio news is not the sort of thing we'd hear about in
the newspaper or on the local news. It might hit as such things become
legal, but I can't see much word about any impending rule change being
visible before the fact.

And after that, one has to judge the source of information. Tea leaves
aren't a good source. Even some guy saying somewhere that the rules might
change isn't a definitive source.

Now, if you actually go to the pertinent government site, then yes indeed
there does seem to be forthcoming rule changes to allow "GMRS" in Canada.
But that's not "tea leaves" or interpretation, it's an outright statement.

If you do a search on "GMRS canada" one site you hit is the Radio Amateurs
of Canada website, http://www.rac.ca They happen to have a page about
FRS in Canada, http://www.rac.ca/frs Now that page mentions GMRS and
MURS, but states they are not legal in Canada.

But there's a link to the Industries Canada website,
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca and if you go there and use "GMRS" for
a search, you get this page:
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter.../sf08144e.html
which is a policy paper on the government's intention to allow GMRS.
I've only looked at the synopsis, the whole paper is in pdf, but note
that at the very least, there will be a changeover period because
others are using that frequency range at the moment.

The Gazette notice about this, from March, suggesting it could come as
early as September 2004:
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter.../sf08145e.html

So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.

Michael VE2BVW

On Thu, 06 May 2004 09:03:32 GMT, Gary S hath writ:
On 04 May 2004 20:44:57 GMT, (AA) wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles.

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.

Yes. Saying the range is UP TO 2 miles is like saying a lottery ticket
will win UP TO $1 million dollars.

I just bought a Panasonic NiMH charger that came with 6 AA's and 2 AAA's.
The AA's are marked "2100mAh" and the AAA's are marked "750mAh".
In teeny, tiny print -- in front of the claims for the mAh -- it
says "Up to". So, when they die and are completley useless, they'll
still meet Panasonic spec's....
Oh, well.
I bought the package for the charger anyway: 100-240 VAC, 50-60 cps,
with "fold-in" mains prongs. Just the ticket for travel. $20 at Costco.

73
Jonesy
--
| Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | OS/2
| Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | linux __
| 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK

On Thu, 06 May 2004 09:03:32 GMT, Gary S hath writ:
On 04 May 2004 20:44:57 GMT, (AA) wrote:

The claimed range of these radios (FRS) is on the order of 2 miles.

Heh....I LOVE those claims! Two miles...in a vacuum and direct LOS (line of
sight)....yup. Normal terrain? 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the typical FRS units.

Yes. Saying the range is UP TO 2 miles is like saying a lottery ticket
will win UP TO $1 million dollars.

I just bought a Panasonic NiMH charger that came with 6 AA's and 2 AAA's.
The AA's are marked "2100mAh" and the AAA's are marked "750mAh".
In teeny, tiny print -- in front of the claims for the mAh -- it
says "Up to". So, when they die and are completley useless, they'll
still meet Panasonic spec's....
Oh, well.
I bought the package for the charger anyway: 100-240 VAC, 50-60 cps,
with "fold-in" mains prongs. Just the ticket for travel. $20 at Costco.

73
Jonesy
--
| Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | OS/2
| Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | linux __
| 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK

Michael Black wrote:


So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.


While I'm sure you thought your reply was cynically amusing, please be
assured that you are quite alone in that thought. The "tea leaves" in
question are those from the Industry Canada site. Whether that
intention comes to pass or not is another matter.


--
--e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Michael Black wrote:


So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.


While I'm sure you thought your reply was cynically amusing, please be
assured that you are quite alone in that thought. The "tea leaves" in
question are those from the Industry Canada site. Whether that
intention comes to pass or not is another matter.


--
--e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Alan Browne ) writes:
Michael Black wrote:


So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.


While I'm sure you thought your reply was cynically amusing, please be
assured that you are quite alone in that thought. The "tea leaves" in
question are those from the Industry Canada site. Whether that
intention comes to pass or not is another matter.

No, your tea leaves comment suggested something terribly vague. It
implies that you are reading some vague indicator.

If your comment that it might change was based on seeing something
on the Industries Canada site, then it's not nearly that vague, and
it's not reading tea leaves. It's equivalent to reading your local
newspaper and seeing something definite.

You used the "tea leave" line, suggesting that you were indeed
getting some rumor or interpreting something you'd seen somewhere.
It was precisely that vagueness that got me to post, suggesting
that if it was "tea leaves" you were reading then you might be misled.
That led me to search for any concrete information, which got
me to the Industries Canada site. If you'd simply cut out the
"cuteness" and simply said you'd find something indicating it was
or that it might be coming to Canada on the Industry Canada website,
even including the URL, then it wouldn't look like you were misreading
something.

Michael VE2BVW

Alan Browne ) writes:
Michael Black wrote:


So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.


While I'm sure you thought your reply was cynically amusing, please be
assured that you are quite alone in that thought. The "tea leaves" in
question are those from the Industry Canada site. Whether that
intention comes to pass or not is another matter.

No, your tea leaves comment suggested something terribly vague. It
implies that you are reading some vague indicator.

If your comment that it might change was based on seeing something
on the Industries Canada site, then it's not nearly that vague, and
it's not reading tea leaves. It's equivalent to reading your local
newspaper and seeing something definite.

You used the "tea leave" line, suggesting that you were indeed
getting some rumor or interpreting something you'd seen somewhere.
It was precisely that vagueness that got me to post, suggesting
that if it was "tea leaves" you were reading then you might be misled.
That led me to search for any concrete information, which got
me to the Industries Canada site. If you'd simply cut out the
"cuteness" and simply said you'd find something indicating it was
or that it might be coming to Canada on the Industry Canada website,
even including the URL, then it wouldn't look like you were misreading
something.

Michael VE2BVW

Michael Black wrote:

Alan Browne ) writes:

Michael Black wrote:



So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.


While I'm sure you thought your reply was cynically amusing, please be
assured that you are quite alone in that thought. The "tea leaves" in
question are those from the Industry Canada site. Whether that
intention comes to pass or not is another matter.


No, your tea leaves comment suggested something terribly vague. It

tedious reply snipped

YAWN.

Michael Black wrote:

Alan Browne ) writes:

Michael Black wrote:



So one does not tea leaves, which also have a tendency to be wrong anyway.


While I'm sure you thought your reply was cynically amusing, please be
assured that you are quite alone in that thought. The "tea leaves" in
question are those from the Industry Canada site. Whether that
intention comes to pass or not is another matter.


No, your tea leaves comment suggested something terribly vague. It

tedious reply snipped

YAWN.