|
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
modelman wrote:
Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Good point! There are FCC rules regarding interference / EMI and Trane may
have flagrantly ignored them. Maybe a threatening letter to the Customer Service Department written with the help of those of us who are amateur radio / electrical engineering types would force them to finally do the right thing. Smarty "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Smarty wrote:
Good point! There are FCC rules regarding interference / EMI and Trane may have flagrantly ignored them. Maybe a threatening letter to the Customer Service Department written with the help of those of us who are amateur radio / electrical engineering types would force them to finally do the right thing. Smarty "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark First, I would get a schematic of the electronics/wiring/specs/and installation instructions for the specific model (web is a good place maybe.) More of a chance the installer has made an error in the installation, grounding, shielding, etc., could save you from the possibility of "crying wolf" too soon... I suspect the engineers of using more caution in the design of the unit, then the installers in the installation of the unit. JS |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark,
I had a severe interference MF to HF from a neighbours gas heater unit. Not sure what it was that was causing it but it was being effectively radiated by the external cables, power and control. I traced the interference to the unit using a portable rx. I silenced it by wrapping both cables tightly around a 6 inch ferrite rod. The cables held in place by cable ties and tape. Hope this helps. 73 Alan VK6BN "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Nice thought, but I went a bit down that road--I'm fuzzy about the specific
details but for one reason or another the people that I spoke to didn't give me anything positive. Something about the generation of RF interference not applying to a product like a furnace. Since this has been a problem for so long and Trane has not been mandated to fix it lends some weight to what I was told. I did tell the Trane Rep that I was going to contact someone in higher management (VP etc) and issue a complaint at that level----didn't phase him. Then I put in my cable line and didn't follow up. For those of you still aggravated by the RF noise why not try this route? I guess that if you go the way of the Small Claims Court you probably have to sue the installer as well as Trane and it would have to be for a complete replacement (one without the problem)or a removal and money refunded. MLD "Smarty" wrote in message ... Good point! There are FCC rules regarding interference / EMI and Trane may have flagrantly ignored them. Maybe a threatening letter to the Customer Service Department written with the help of those of us who are amateur radio / electrical engineering types would force them to finally do the right thing. Smarty "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE I'm pretty sure these motors don't have brushes and are electronically commutated and the electronics are causing the EMI... Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
MLD wrote:
Nice thought, but I went a bit down that road--I'm fuzzy about the specific details but for one reason or another the people that I spoke to didn't give me anything positive. Something about the generation of RF interference not applying to a product like a furnace. Anything that generates RF inside the USA is regulated by the FCC. If your cat's butt emits RF in the USA it's regulated by the FCC. -- "A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle." -- George William Curtis |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE I'm pretty sure these motors don't have brushes and are electronically commutated and the electronics are causing the EMI... Mark Hi Mark, Modern HVAC, dishwashers, washing machines,ect. use variable speed drives, which increases the efficiency of the devices. The increased efficiency produces increased RFI due to the switching action of the solid state devices (SCR's, BJT's, IGBJT's.ect). My washing machine drives me crazy on Sat. morning on HF as my maid does the weekly wash. As for what you can do? I don't know, it would require vast amounts of filtering at the drives, I am sure that Trane and other mfgrs are not willing invest in. This is completely different from the usual thermostat interference, and will be much more difficult to get rid of. Gary N4AST |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE I'm pretty sure these motors don't have brushes and are electronically commutated and the electronics are causing the EMI... Mark Hi Mark, Modern HVAC, dishwashers, washing machines,ect. use variable speed drives, which increases the efficiency of the devices. The increased efficiency produces increased RFI due to the switching action of the solid state devices (SCR's, BJT's, IGBJT's.ect). My washing machine drives me crazy on Sat. morning on HF as my maid does the weekly wash. As for what you can do? I don't know, it would require vast amounts of filtering at the drives, I am sure that Trane and other mfgrs are not willing invest in. This is completely different from the usual thermostat interference, and will be much more difficult to get rid of. Gary N4AST |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:32 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com