Mike Coslo wrote:

I've heard of some pretty wild times long before things were "dumbed
down"!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike, I've been meaning to ask. Are you still sore at me for not
giving your grief about the balloon project? I've been stressing over
Steve's label of "antagonist" for not giving you grief for some time
now. I'm such a terrible person. Hi!

"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


What was the wash-out rate?

I don't have any statistics, but it was fairly small, probably on the order of
8-10%. Most washouts were for academic reasons. Very few failed because of the
code.

What happened to the wash-outs?

They were transferred to the fleet, where most of them were immediately snapped
up by the Chief Radioman as undesignated strikers. Since we were chronically
short of operators, any training at all was an asset, and a "second chance" is a
great motivator. Usually these turned out to be above average sailors.

73, de Hans, K0HB
Master Chief Radioman, US Navy

cl wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

cl wrote:


"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...


cl wrote:




which required code. 5 WPM is not impossible to learn. It only takes a
few minutes a day and about 2 weeks at least to get enough to pass a
test.

Took me 45 minutes a day for over 6 months, plus one failed test to get
to 5 wpm.

I'm all in favor of Morse code testing, but you guys have to show some
understanding that it isn't that easy for a lot of people.

I aced the writtens, without a whole lot of study by comparison to a lot
of people. I don't go around calling them retards or stupid.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Ok.... It took "me" 2 weeks, I know others who learned it quickly, but I
can't provide a time frame. Yes, code "can" be harder for others to pick
up. I don't doubt that for a minute. Point is, you have to put one foot
in front of the other and stick with it, to get down the path to learn
it.

Yup. I must confess that I kind of drew you and some folks into this a
bit, because I have some significant hearing defects. Several 60+ db
notches,esp at the mid and higher frequencies and two separate tones of
tinnitis, a different frequency for each ear. I haven't had a quiet moment
for 30 years or more. When conversing with people, I read lips. I
understand vey much the situation of the fellow whose wife has notches in
her hearing.(conjecture alert) I would also say I suspect that the
constant noise in my ears has turned of parts of my brain that process
sound. And that is probably why I had such a hard time (conjecture alert
off) All I can say for teh folks with hearing problems is that study,
practice, and most importantly, relaxation during copying is the key.



I can only imagine what it must be like with a significant hearing deficit.
I can not and will not put anyone down who has such a problem.

It really isn't so bad. In fact, it is sometimes hilarious, when I
badly misinterpret what someone says. My family usually tells people of
my "predicament" before I meet them, when they have the chance, so they
don't think I'm whacked when I give them some off the wall response! 8^)

Though there are some sleepless nights when the ears are really roaring....

So I just wear a headset to Op, and turn the sound up......

As to how
they can learn code, there are many ways, but I guess it comes down to
whatever works best for that person. Not everyone's condition is the same.
I've tested folks with some difficulties, I followed the guidelines as given
by the VEC/FCC. There are ways to test folks with such problems, but getting
them to be able to learn the code - is the first hurdle.


Does 6 months of constant hard effort indicate the desire to "stick with
it"?



Yes, I'd say it certainly does! You are to be commended for doing such.
You're not a "quitter". And from the sounds of things, you didn't "whine"
about it either.

Whining doesn't help anything. And I am proud of having learned Morse
code. Yes, that part was more difficult for me than some others.

Big deal - I'm not going to demand that everything be changed to suit
me. I fully support Morse code testing.


Many don't want to start, and whine about it without ever putting forth
effort. Hell, I know people who bitched about having to look at the
"basic" Q/A manual! One remark was "Do I "have" to learn all this?"
Another - "Do I "have" to read all these questions?" But yet they want a
license. Pure laziness. Licenses should be "earned" not given away.
People are least likely to respect something "given" to them.

Most of what you say , I agree with. If a person doesn't want to study,
they shouldn't have a license


The bands are already showing signs of deterioration from people who just
don't care.

I've heard of some pretty wild times long before things were "dumbed
down"!

- Mike KB3EIA -





Yeah, I know the bands started going to hell before that. Used to be I
bragged about Ham to people who wanted their kids to get into radio but
didn't want the CB garbage. I said Ham is clean. Today, you couldn't pay me
to advertise ham as being clean. It is NOT. That is sad..... It really is.
The exams test for proficiency in code, theory, rules and regulations.
They're not psychological tests to weed out all the riff raff. IF such tests
existed for Ham and all the other fields, maybe we'd have a better world.
There are people in every field, be it a hobby or profession - who ruin it
or at the very least - make it look bad for the rest.

I don't know if you do PSK31 or not. But if you want to QSO with
gentlemen and gentlewomen, it is the place to go. I've yet to hear a
curse or even complaining gossip on that mode. The worst I ever heard
was one ham (deservedly) upbraiding another for a horribly overdriven
and powerful signal that was wreaking havoc with the rest of the
segment. But even that was tame by comparison with the rest of the
bands. 20 is great for DX, and 80 is the place to go to ragchew.

And on psk31, I have no hearing problems at all, haha!

- Mike KB3EIA -

bb wrote:

Dee Flint wrote:


Most of the computer programs let you select a pitch you like. Of

course

you would have to arrange with the VE team well in advance of the

test to

have one set up at that pitch for her testing.


Dee, not everyone has a ham-husband to tell them all of the
modifications that the VE may make to an examination

Brian, Dee is a VE.....

- Mike KB3EIA -

Hey, are you going to Dayton this year? I have a batch of what promises
to be an awesome Red Ale which should be ready to drink about that
time......

bb wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

I've heard of some pretty wild times long before things were "dumbed

down"!

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike, I've been meaning to ask. Are you still sore at me for not
giving your grief about the balloon project?

HEH! Now you confused me Brian. But seriously, that you *didn't* give
me grief was duly noted!


I've been stressing over
Steve's label of "antagonist" for not giving you grief for some time
now. I'm such a terrible person. Hi!

Ohh, you know how newsgroups are.....

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dee Flint wrote:

"Mel A. Nomah" wrote in message
link.net...

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

:
: I've looked at some of the older questions. The only thing about them
: that is difficult is that they tend to pertain to operating with
: equipment and different condition than today.
:

No, the only thing harder was that those were just samples, and you had to
actually understand the underlying material because the question on the
examination would be different.

From your description of "take the online test until I can pass it, then
rush down to the VE session", I expect that you'd be another Len Anderson
under those conditions, on the outside looking in.

M.A.N.
--
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord,
make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
- Voltaire



The test pools are large enough that it's much easier to learn the material
than memorize all the questions and answers. The Extra class pool is
something like 800 questions even though only 50 appear on the test. I'd
much rather learn the equation and how to use it than try to memorize say 10
different question/answer combinations for the material covered by that
equation.

Exactly.

And as for my testing preparation method, it is effective. THe
questions I got correct, I had no need to go any further with. But the
ones I got wrong were corrected by a trip to the books, or internet
research. By the time I took the real test, I knew the material very
well indeed.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dee Flint wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

cl wrote:



which required code. 5 WPM is not impossible to learn. It only takes a
few minutes a day and about 2 weeks at least to get enough to pass a
test.

Took me 45 minutes a day for over 6 months, plus one failed test to get to
5 wpm.

I'm all in favor of Morse code testing, but you guys have to show some
understanding that it isn't that easy for a lot of people.

I aced the writtens, without a whole lot of study by comparison to a lot
of people. I don't go around calling them retards or stupid.

- Mike KB3EIA -


I agree with you Mike. I hate it when I hear someone say "it only took me a
few days" as that raises unrealistic expectations on the part of the
students. It becomes very hard to convince them that they will probably
need more time than that and to keep them motivated to keep working on it.
The average person needs 30 hours of study (1/2 per EVERY day for 60 days)
to get there. Some will take longer such as yourself but at least once they
have put in the 30 hours, they will be able to tell that they are making
progress even if it takes longer for them.

Correct, Dee. Bless those who find it easy, but that isn't what I
needed to hear when I was learning.

But I'm glad I did it, and it was indeed worth it. I feel sorry for
those that have decided to wait for Morse to go away. they still wait......

- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

wrote:

That's all well and good Mike and no doubt you're a quite competent RF
tech, not even a discussion. But I think you're missing some critical
points here. Rumors to the contrary ham radio is overwhelmingly a
communications hobby, it is NOT an electronics hobby as such. Sure
there are any number of high-end electronics gurus who also have ham
tickets and exercise their skills on the bands, in the clubs and even
in this funny-farm of a USENET group. But they're not the heart & soul
of ham radio today for certain and I'm not particularly convinced they
ever were.



Most of the hams I knew as a kid were home brewers. They were not
designers but they could build a piece of equipment form a magazine
article or the handbook. I lived about an hour from Mendelson's in
dayton Ohio, and I ran into a lot of hams there, digging through the
unmarked bins of parts to build their latest project or repair one of
their projects.



In general the average ham learns as much about electronics
as he/she needs to satisfy their enjoyment of the hobby. Which on
average ain't much in this day of cheap whizzy plug 'n play equipment.
Beast on reality as you might but that's the way it is.



The whole idea of a rig that isn't intended to be serviced is what
kills my interest in the hobby. Too many custom parts made of
"Unobtaium" and refusing to release schematics and manuals really don't
inspire any confidence in imported whiz bang rigs. Not that I prefer
tube only rigs, but they were built to do their job for years.

I like the modern equipment, but hollow state equipment is simply cool.
Now that I have my main station set up, I'm going to start putting
together some old tube rigs. Oh yeah!


Maybe
the rest of the ham's life if he took decent care of his equipment. A
lot of newer rigs end up as parts units because some cheap component is
NLA. Do you think many of these all plastic LCD display radios will
still work when they are 20 years old?


I was told that a couple retired EEs in the local club did all their
repairs and I didn't know enough to be of any help. Then they told me
to "stuff" my offer of free electronic components to help them with
repairs.

Mike, if I may be blunt, that is a pretty ****ty club. Pardon my French!



In this sense and given the obvious lack of interest in the arcane
details of electronics amongst the average members of the average
neighborhood ham radio club you should not have known that your offer
to participate was a no-counter. They don't "maintain" their radios,
they don't need your expertise, they simply ship their broken radios
off to the repair shops to get fixed. In short "Now You're Talking"
fits their agenda and your's simply does not. In another sense ham
radio clubs are private entities conventionally for hams and
prospective hams only. As an analogy what you did was show up at a
bow-hunters club with a .45-70 powder-burner and expect any interest in
an offer to "help".

w3rv


Sorry, but that analogy just doesn't work. Several members told me
they wanted to do minor repairs on their equipment but they didn't have
access to the tools or equipment anymore. I offered them free use of my
shop and to give them most of the components from my old repair business
if I had what they needed and was laughed at.

AS I said, a poor excuse for a club.....

As far as weapons, I have
used a bow but I prefer an M-72. ;-)



A lot of hams in Ohio were glad that I was willing to help out
including an old ham in his late 70s that brought me a home brew
receiver that a SK friend of his had built 20 years before. He had lost
the hand drawn schematics and had a tear rolling down his cheek as he
asked if there was any way I could possibly help him. He told me that
he had been to every two way shop and ham equipment dealer to try to
find someone to work on it and that one of them told him I was the only
one in the county crazy enough to even attempt a repair. I tore it down
and found a couple burnt resistors and shorted caps. I did a little
math, dug around and found the parts. He was crying when the receiver
came to life and kept thanking me. I charged him $10 and he hurried
home to get back on the air. Helping someone like that is better than
spending hours on the air to me. Different strokes?

Different strokes indeed. The ARS has room for many different types. It
sounds as if we would get along just fine.

I'll bet you felt just darn good when you got to help that fellow.

Sounds to me as if you *have* found your place in the hobby. Seems like
a good one to me.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"cl" wrote in message
o.verio.net...

"cl" wrote in message
o.verio.net...
"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
cl wrote:


which required code. 5 WPM is not impossible to learn. It only takes
a few minutes a day and about 2 weeks at least to get enough to pass
a test.

Took me 45 minutes a day for over 6 months, plus one failed test to
get to 5 wpm.

I'm all in favor of Morse code testing, but you guys have to show some
understanding that it isn't that easy for a lot of people.

I aced the writtens, without a whole lot of study by comparison to a
lot of people. I don't go around calling them retards or stupid.

- Mike KB3EIA -

I agree with you Mike. I hate it when I hear someone say "it only took
me a few days" as that raises unrealistic expectations on the part of
the students. It becomes very hard to convince them that they will
probably need more time than that and to keep them motivated to keep
working on it. The average person needs 30 hours of study (1/2 per
EVERY day for 60 days) to get there. Some will take longer such as
yourself but at least once they have put in the 30 hours, they will be
able to tell that they are making progress even if it takes longer for
them.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


NOT EVERYONE - can learn code in a few days or whatever. There are some
things I can't learn in a month where others picked it up right away.
Different strokes for different folks. Each person has to take whatever
time as needed to learn whatever it is they're needing/desiring to
learn. Some fields don't allow a lot of time to learn, while others -
such as ham - do.
There is nothing saying that ANYONE has to learn code overnight or
they're a failure. Just because I was fortunate enough to get enough
in - in that 2 weeks - to pass the exam, doesn't make me a "CW" king. I
use code "rarely". But, I had a chance once to teach some youngsters the
code. One picked it up pretty quick, the others - were a bit slower. If
anyone wants/needs to learn the code to get a license, they will - in
whatever time it takes - IF they start on it and don't give up.
The last part is the key...... To get started and stick with it. As to
time, when they get all the characters down, then they'll have learned
the code. Be it 2 weeks or 2 years.

cl


Maybe someone would care to explain to me and to the rest of the world,
how Gordon West's mini camps held on a "weekend" - were designed to work
to get people ready to pass an exam by the end of the weekend. At least
that is the understanding "I" got from reading the ads. I can't recall if
some of those weekends were just for NO Code Tech OR if perhaps they also
may have been for "code" as well. IF SO, and someone never had code, then
how the hell did they do it in 3 days? Two weeks is a reasonable amount
of time - as it took me. Three days? I don't know...... Is it possible?
Even if it were just for the theory, most I know, can't learn all that in
3 days. You'd have live, eat, sleep, breathe and take the books to the
can with you. IF anyone took one of those weekends, speak up. IF maybe
"I" misunderstood the ad wordage, someone - anyone - feel free to correct
me.

cl

It was for no code Tech and students were expected to have read the book
once through before attending the weekend seminar.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


ONCE??????? Many can't do it in 3............ I didn't see that disclaimer
as I'll call it - listed in the ad.

cl

"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...

snipped


My comments with respect to the NPRM were, "What I fear most about
changing the Morse Code exam requirements is a lack of enforcement, and
what I fear most about maintaining the status quo is a lack of
enforcement."


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You may have a valid concern!

You're right, it will take a while, even if
they were to decide to write a NPRM to do such. If these people
jumped into
Alligator infested waters as fast as they do rumors, the
population
would
take a sudden drop. I'm not a "lover" of code, but I have hold a
license
which required code.

Ditto.

5 WPM is not impossible to learn. It only takes a few
minutes a day and about 2 weeks at least to get enough to pass a
test. 2
weeks is not long,

It may be impossible for some. I learned it over a considerably
longer
period of time with frequent practice.

you probably drove longer on a permit before being
allowed to drive on your own. Probably studied the book longer
too!
It takes
little effort.

I disagree. It took a great effort.

For some - it may! One argument I've heard, is that those musically
inclined
pick it up quicker than others, yet I knew some who "were" musically
inclined and claimed to have a hell of a time with it. Reason? I
don't know.
I can't get inside their head.

Steve can. He can even have them incarcerated with a simple phone
calls.

The biggest problem with most is "laziness".

Was that your problem? If you hadn't been so lazy you could have
learned the code in under a week?

Eh - I had the code down in 2 weeks for the Novice exam. AND I'm now
an
Extra. Been licensed since the early 80s.
Yeah, I probably could have learned it in under a week, if I pushed
myself.

That wasn't my point. My point is that everyone is different, and the
length of time it takes to learn 5WPM varies greatly. The time it
takes to learn 20WPM could be lifetimes. Not everyone is even capable
of 13WPM.


I agree. As I've said, I learned the code well enough in 2 weeks to pass the
exam but it didn't / doesn't make me a "CW" king. Time isn't really the
factor here. My main point was (and I do know others who learned code
quickly), you "have to start". I've heard people spout out - I can't learn
those dashes and dots. Problem is, they never even tried. Maybe as kids -
they may have had a set of cheap walkie talkies with the code on them or
perhaps seen some code characters listed or heard them somewhere on tv or
so. Did they "really" try to learn it? Nine chances out of ten - I'm willing
to bet - NO. You have to "try". If you can't do it alone, seek out the help
of one who has or any of the courses available and give it a chance. I will
admit, some of the courses I have heard - sucked. They tended to turn me
away from the desire to listen. One reason, one of the course tapes had an
"echo" to it. Try listening to that for a while. If you were ever in a sub
and heard sonar for 8 hours a day or more, you'd have felt right at home.
So, yes - some things "can" drive you away from wanting to learn it.
If one method doesn't do it, find one that will. If you're interested
enough, you'll do what it takes to get through it.

Time used to be a factor at one time as a license had to be upgraded in a
certain time, so it sort of placed those who were lagging - in a bit of a
turmoil. I guess that was the FCC's way of saying - you can do it if you put
your mind to it. They kind of pushed you along or out of the way.

Most anyone will tell you - it isn't good to do such. Besides, at
that time,
I was chasing rug rats - so study time was premium.

I've been told that is absolutely no excuse. Nothing in your personal
or professional life can be more important than learning the code.


Hmmmmmm....... the only other one I can think of more important, is eating!


Most recommendations are
15 minutes to a half hour a day. That hardly makes it possible in a
week. I
used the words " "AT LEAST" 2 WEEKS". Some are faster learners than
others,
that is a given. BUT my point was, you have to get started to learn
ANYTHING. You can't absorb it through osmosis. Back to the timing
thing, I
hope someone from the military can step in to tell us how much time
they
were given to get the code down. I think they had to "Cram".

They've finally left the group. They were paid to learn the code, and
they kept getting paid even if they failed. Of course, insteading of
doing intercept comms, they were peeling potatoes.

Maybe you never
will use it again.

Perhaps. I've found little use for it so far. Maybe once I'm an
old
fart, have loads of time, and wax nostalgic for things that never
were,
I'll take it up and enjoy it, and demand that all learn it.

Probably the same age bracket as me. I do listen to call signs now
and then
on the scanner to pick out the services they represent - if I don't
immediately know who the service is. I do listen some times to code
on the
H.F. Bands.

I don't dislike the code. It was difficult for me to make the few
QSO's that I did make as a novice. I'd like to pick it up again
someday.

There are many things you learn in life and may never use
again, unless you plan to play on Jeopardy. Many people learned
the
skeletal
system in health class, microorganisms in Biology class. It
doesn't
mean
they use it now. Probably forgot it as soon as they graduated.
But,
it was
"required". It's not a big deal people. Once you get past the "do
I
have to"
and start doing it, you'll amaze yourself at how fast and easy it
can
be.

Indeed. I never had the "do I have to?" attitude as there was no
code-free license when I became a ham. Yet it took me about 9
weeks of
daily practice.

And you stuck with it!!!!!!!! You didn't quit, and it got you where
you
wanted to be. OR had to be - for your class of license. 2 weeks, 9
weeks, so
what... you did it. A milestone to be proud of. No one can fault you
for
that effort.

My ex-wife certainly can.


So could my ex wife, but then again, with her being divorced for the third
time in few years, I could care less what her opinion was of me. I gave my
50% and thats all I was worried about. I have no guilt - there.

I
DO use code now and then, but not daily like many others do.
Everyone
has
their own thing. Some are into Packet, RTTY, AMTOR, etc, I'm
not...
To each
his own. But we all had to learn "something" about those modes to
pass an
exam.

cl

Use it all you want. I'm against the Code Exam as an unnecessary
government requirement.

Funny thing is, we're all arguing pros and cons and in the end, it
won't
matter. WE do not have control. So, if we're going to debate the
issues we
have no control over, may as well keep it clean. Hardly any of us
know the
other and it isn't worth making enemies over. Certainly not worth
name
calling.... Whether I'm right or wrong, I do value opposing view
points.
Everyone has a right to his/her own opinion. It sure will be
interesting to
see how it all unfolds. I think in the end, we both know the answer
to that.
Pro or con, it is a matter of time. May be a year, may be 5, but it
will
come to pass.

cl

I don't think that's 100% correct. You and me don't write the FCC
regulations, but the FCC looked to the ARRL to put forth modern exam
requirements. The ARRL movers and shakers wrung their hands and bit
"thier" knuckles and said that there was no concensus. So the FCC
plowed ahead with modernization, and the ARRL came up with reductions
in the Morse requirements lickety split. Amazing, all that.

So in the end, if more folks has been exposed to viewpoints other than
the ARRL's, there just might have been a concensus.

Just my opinions, of course, but by tomorrow I'll probably be labeled a
liar, a homosexual, and maybe even a horse thief.


Not by me, I don't have a problem with opposing view points. You could be
right, I could be wrong. It is good to debate.
Name calling doesn't get it done. That is what kills me, many do that
because they can't do a good debate. So what if we keep opposing each new
point made, who cares? Just makes more to chat about.

As to the ARRL, at one point - "I" thought and perhaps I read it somewhere -
the FCC was getting fed up with the ARRL always trying to influence them.
I'm not sure what is going on there anymore. The ARRL ****ed me off a long
time ago and ever since then, it didn't matter to me whether they sank or
swam. The local representative was one of the most cocky - arrogant people
to walk the face of the earth. He was "supposed" to be at the Hamfest to
meet people and to discuss things. He blew off most of those who approached
him. Instead - always turning to his friend to talk to him. Well excuse US
for the interruption......... With representation like that, who needs them?
That wasn't the only issue. Their arrogance got the best of me and some
others I know - a few times. I don't follow them anymore - like a dog on a
leash. Funny, my brother just got an invitation the other day - to join.
First one he got in a long time. I said - must need some money! The ARRL
doesn't speak for me. Actually, I don't think they speak for themselves
anymore. In the end, unless we continue to get government protection, big
business will win. Money talks and bull **** walks.

cl