Squegging in LC oscillators
 

I have been playing around with my homebrew VFO, a Hartley oscillator,
with a tapped inductor in the tank.

Rough parameters: 6AH6 pentode for the VFO, tank resonant at 1.8Mc,
plate circuit resonant at 3.6Mc. Rather low-Q plate tank (on purpose, I
want it to cover 100kc or so). Tank tapped about 1/3 of the way from
the bottom. 150V from an 0A2 on the screen, bypassed by a 0.005 uF
ceramic with short leads at the screen.

While playing around with it I found this weird mode where it wouldn't
necessarily start up in constant oscillation. It would repeatedly
(30000 times a second) start up (starting up very quickly, in just a
few cycles), grid and cathode circuit amplitude would build up to about
10V p-p, then the oscillations would slowly (over the next 30
microseconds) die down. Then it would repeat.

Hand capacitance near the grid or on the tank coil would often break it
out of this mode and into more regular oscillation. Putting a 10x scope
probe on the grid sometimes broke it out of this mode too.

What eventually made the circuit more reliable was putting a few
hundred ohms in series with the grid. But I don't understand exactly
how this helped.

My guess for this squegging mode is that the oscillator would suddenly
start, the tank would ring, the tank would ring hard enough that grid
current flowed, and that the grid current somehow would "latch" on
until oscillation died out, then it would repeat.

Or, just maybe, it's more closely related to screen current and maybe
some kind of oscillation of the 0A2 in the screen regulator. I tried
changing the dropping resistor feeding the 0A2 and a couple different
0A2's but the squegging seemed relatively insensitive to it.

Trying some other pentodes that were not so "hot" (e.g. 6AU6, 6BA6)
changed the squegging a little but it was still there.

My not-understood fix, putting a few hundred ohms in series with the
grid, is something that I've often seen in real-world circuits. I think
this is to provide some degeneration, and always was under the
impression that the degeneration was intended to prevent oscillation in
the VHF range. It is possible that the circuit was indeed oscillating
at a few hundred Mc but my scope (100Mc bandwidth) didn't see it. And I
don't know how a 200Mc parasitic might cause 30kc squegging.

Any thoughts?

Tim KA0BTD

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Tim Shoppa wrote:
I have been playing around with my homebrew VFO, a Hartley oscillator,
with a tapped inductor in the tank.

Rough parameters: 6AH6 pentode for the VFO, tank resonant at 1.8Mc,
plate circuit resonant at 3.6Mc. Rather low-Q plate tank (on purpose, I
want it to cover 100kc or so). Tank tapped about 1/3 of the way from
the bottom. 150V from an 0A2 on the screen, bypassed by a 0.005 uF
ceramic with short leads at the screen.

While playing around with it I found this weird mode where it wouldn't
necessarily start up in constant oscillation. It would repeatedly
(30000 times a second) start up (starting up very quickly, in just a
few cycles), grid and cathode circuit amplitude would build up to about
10V p-p, then the oscillations would slowly (over the next 30
microseconds) die down. Then it would repeat.

Hand capacitance near the grid or on the tank coil would often break it
out of this mode and into more regular oscillation. Putting a 10x scope
probe on the grid sometimes broke it out of this mode too.

What eventually made the circuit more reliable was putting a few
hundred ohms in series with the grid. But I don't understand exactly
how this helped.

My guess for this squegging mode is that the oscillator would suddenly
start, the tank would ring, the tank would ring hard enough that grid
current flowed, and that the grid current somehow would "latch" on
until oscillation died out, then it would repeat.
(snip)

(my guess)
The grid acts as a rectifier that builds a DC grid bias
voltage from the rectified AC signal, biasing the tube off.
Then the tank dies a natural death. Adding the series
resistor reduced the efficiency of the rectification.

Sounds like you have too much positive feedback, to begin with.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

John Popelish wrote:
The grid acts as a rectifier that builds a DC grid bias
voltage from the rectified AC signal, biasing the tube off.
Then the tank dies a natural death.

But in a "normal-functioning" oscillator, the DC grid bias doesn't cut
things off for so long, right?

The P-P amplitude at the grid (as seen by my 10x scope probe) when the
circuit is not squegging is in fact larger than when it is squegging.

I suppose it is possible there's some weird kink in tube
characteristics for all the pentodes I tried.

Adding the series
resistor reduced the efficiency of the rectification.

Sounds like you have too much positive feedback, to begin with.

Probably, but moving the tap on the tank coil had little effect. The
handbook says about a third of the way up from the ground end, but I
tried it at a half, two-thirds, one-tenth, etc. It did alter the shape
and timing of the squegging a little bit but it was still squegging. If
I moved it too far the circuit didn't oscillate at all (too little
feedback).

Also, changing the biasing (trying to move it further into class A) by
putting a cathode resistor in didn't help much either.

Tim.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Tim Shoppa wrote:
John Popelish wrote:
The grid acts as a rectifier that builds a DC grid bias
voltage from the rectified AC signal, biasing the tube off.
Then the tank dies a natural death.

But in a "normal-functioning" oscillator, the DC grid bias doesn't cut
things off for so long, right?

Right. If you don't have way too much loop gain, the bias
just shifts enough from the grid leak effect to slightly
lower the loop gain so that a stable oscillation takes
place. The negative feedback loop that adjusts this gain
adjustment effect can be stable or unstable.

The P-P amplitude at the grid (as seen by my 10x scope probe) when the
circuit is not squegging is in fact larger than when it is squegging.

I suppose it is possible there's some weird kink in tube
characteristics for all the pentodes I tried.

Adding the series
resistor reduced the efficiency of the rectification.

Sounds like you have too much positive feedback, to begin with.

Probably, but moving the tap on the tank coil had little effect. The
handbook says about a third of the way up from the ground end, but I
tried it at a half, two-thirds, one-tenth, etc. It did alter the shape
and timing of the squegging a little bit but it was still squegging. If
I moved it too far the circuit didn't oscillate at all (too little
feedback).

Also, changing the biasing (trying to move it further into class A) by
putting a cathode resistor in didn't help much either.

My concept may be over simplified, and not include
everything that is happening. I would look at the screen
bias voltage during the squeeging to see if it is also
bouncing with it, or remains stable through a cycle.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Tim Shoppa wrote:
I have been playing around with my homebrew VFO, a Hartley oscillator,
with a tapped inductor in the tank.

Rough parameters: 6AH6 pentode for the VFO, tank resonant at 1.8Mc,
plate circuit resonant at 3.6Mc. Rather low-Q plate tank (on purpose, I
want it to cover 100kc or so). Tank tapped about 1/3 of the way from
the bottom. 150V from an 0A2 on the screen, bypassed by a 0.005 uF
ceramic with short leads at the screen.

While playing around with it I found this weird mode where it wouldn't
necessarily start up in constant oscillation. It would repeatedly
(30000 times a second) start up (starting up very quickly, in just a
few cycles), grid and cathode circuit amplitude would build up to about
10V p-p, then the oscillations would slowly (over the next 30
microseconds) die down. Then it would repeat.

Hand capacitance near the grid or on the tank coil would often break it
out of this mode and into more regular oscillation. Putting a 10x scope
probe on the grid sometimes broke it out of this mode too.

What eventually made the circuit more reliable was putting a few
hundred ohms in series with the grid. But I don't understand exactly
how this helped.

My guess for this squegging mode is that the oscillator would suddenly
start, the tank would ring, the tank would ring hard enough that grid
current flowed, and that the grid current somehow would "latch" on
until oscillation died out, then it would repeat.

Or, just maybe, it's more closely related to screen current and maybe
some kind of oscillation of the 0A2 in the screen regulator. I tried
changing the dropping resistor feeding the 0A2 and a couple different
0A2's but the squegging seemed relatively insensitive to it.

Trying some other pentodes that were not so "hot" (e.g. 6AU6, 6BA6)
changed the squegging a little but it was still there.

My not-understood fix, putting a few hundred ohms in series with the
grid, is something that I've often seen in real-world circuits. I think
this is to provide some degeneration, and always was under the
impression that the degeneration was intended to prevent oscillation in
the VHF range. It is possible that the circuit was indeed oscillating
at a few hundred Mc but my scope (100Mc bandwidth) didn't see it. And I
don't know how a 200Mc parasitic might cause 30kc squegging.

Any thoughts?

Tim KA0BTD

Spice is your friend. I have found that LT spice is particularly good
at predicting squegging, at least in general. There's never a 1:1
correspondence with the real thing, but close is pretty good in RF.

When I have experienced squegging like this it has been because I have
built a circuit with a resonance between the circuit capacitances and
the RF chokes (you know -- those things you use for biasing that you
treat as 'shorts' in your AC analysis?). To the bias circuit, the
oscillator looks like a negative resistance, so you get two modes of
oscillation at once.

This is complicated by the fact that the circuit wouldn't oscillate at
the lower frequency at all if it weren't for the action of the intended
oscillation -- it's the current requirements of the active device as
oscillation build up that cause the negative resistance action that
causes squegging.

I suspect that your grid resistor is killing the Q of the circuit at
30kHz, which kills the squegging without killing the intended mode of
oscillation. You may find that loading any bias chokes with carefully
selected, unbypassed series resistance will also kill the squegging.
You can also sometimes kill it by reducing selected bypass capacitances
to lower the circuit Q at the squegging frequency.

Of course all of this also lowers the circuit Q at the desired
oscillation frequency -- that's life. Your job is to find a happy
medium that gives you good oscillator performance without squegging. Or
start building superregenerative receivers!

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

John Popelish wrote:
My concept may be over simplified, and not include
everything that is happening. I would look at the screen
bias voltage during the squeeging to see if it is also
bouncing with it, or remains stable through a cycle.

Wow, man, if I make it happen again I see the screen voltage
motorboating up and down by about 3V (around the nominal 150V) at about
30kc.

Changing the screen bypass capacitor between
680pf/0.001/0.002/0.005/0.010 and changing the current through the 0A2
between 5mA and 10mA and 20mA and 30mA doesn't stop the squegging but
it does somewhat alter the timing/amplitude.

Plate can be held at a steadyish 350V (even bypassed)
through all this.

So this is something like the textbook squegging which seems to be
something like a motorboating of the plate voltage, but in my case I
see it in the nominally regulated screen instead. New one for me!

I don't think this is quite like the typical NE-2 relaxation oscillator
circuit, because I thought 0A2's were supposed to be stable with these
small amounts of capacitance and the behavior seems independent of room
lighting, but I could be wrong. The screen voltage waveform sure as
hell looks like a relaxation oscillator at 30kc.

Looking at my old schematics I see my Heath HW-16 crystal oscillator
puts the crystal between the screen and the grid of a 6CL6. Manual says
that the screen is serving as the plate of the oscillator. Probably
completely unrelated to the intended operation of my oscillator (where
I bypass the screen and the leads are short) but may be related to the
unintended mode of operation!

Tim.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Tim Shoppa wrote:
John Popelish wrote:

My concept may be over simplified, and not include
everything that is happening. I would look at the screen
bias voltage during the squeeging to see if it is also
bouncing with it, or remains stable through a cycle.


Wow, man, if I make it happen again I see the screen voltage
motorboating up and down by about 3V (around the nominal 150V) at about
30kc.

Changing the screen bypass capacitor between
680pf/0.001/0.002/0.005/0.010 and changing the current through the 0A2
between 5mA and 10mA and 20mA and 30mA doesn't stop the squegging but
it does somewhat alter the timing/amplitude.

Plate can be held at a steadyish 350V (even bypassed)
through all this.

So this is something like the textbook squegging which seems to be
something like a motorboating of the plate voltage, but in my case I
see it in the nominally regulated screen instead. New one for me!

I don't think this is quite like the typical NE-2 relaxation oscillator
circuit, because I thought 0A2's were supposed to be stable with these
small amounts of capacitance and the behavior seems independent of room
lighting, but I could be wrong. The screen voltage waveform sure as
hell looks like a relaxation oscillator at 30kc.

Looking at my old schematics I see my Heath HW-16 crystal oscillator
puts the crystal between the screen and the grid of a 6CL6. Manual says
that the screen is serving as the plate of the oscillator. Probably
completely unrelated to the intended operation of my oscillator (where
I bypass the screen and the leads are short) but may be related to the
unintended mode of operation!

Tim.

What are the three terminals of your oscillator? Your screen is
grounded, so I assume that the grid and cathode are both floating at RF
-- is this so?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

"Tim Shoppa" wrote in message
ups.com...
John Popelish wrote:
My concept may be over simplified, and not include
everything that is happening. I would look at the screen
bias voltage during the squeeging to see if it is also
bouncing with it, or remains stable through a cycle.

Wow, man, if I make it happen again I see the screen voltage
motorboating up and down by about 3V (around the nominal 150V) at about
30kc.

Changing the screen bypass capacitor between
680pf/0.001/0.002/0.005/0.010 and changing the current through the 0A2
between 5mA and 10mA and 20mA and 30mA doesn't stop the squegging but
it does somewhat alter the timing/amplitude.

Plate can be held at a steadyish 350V (even bypassed)
through all this.

So this is something like the textbook squegging which seems to be
something like a motorboating of the plate voltage, but in my case I
see it in the nominally regulated screen instead. New one for me!

I don't think this is quite like the typical NE-2 relaxation oscillator
circuit, because I thought 0A2's were supposed to be stable with these
small amounts of capacitance and the behavior seems independent of room
lighting, but I could be wrong. The screen voltage waveform sure as
hell looks like a relaxation oscillator at 30kc.

Looking at my old schematics I see my Heath HW-16 crystal oscillator
puts the crystal between the screen and the grid of a 6CL6. Manual says
that the screen is serving as the plate of the oscillator. Probably
completely unrelated to the intended operation of my oscillator (where
I bypass the screen and the leads are short) but may be related to the
unintended mode of operation!

Tim.

I think you are talking yourself out of the problem.

It sounds like you are trying to build an electron-coupled Hartley
oscillator. There is no way that a voltage change of 3 volts on the screen
(which is functioning as the anode, for Hartley purposes) is going to start
and stop the oscillator.

Watch the DC voltage on the grid. You will see it follow the relaxation
oscillator waveform when the thing is squegging.

The fundamental problem is two-fold. First, too much feedback. Second, the
time constant of the grid circuit is too long. The stored energy in the tank
can continue to charge the coupling cap even after the plate current is cut
off, and it can't start to oscillate again until the charge on the coupling
cap bleeds off.

Start by lowering the grid circuit resistance and lowering the capacitance
of the grid coupling capacitor. This will work to cure both evils. Taking a
quick look at the 6AH6 curves I would guess that, at 6 MHz, your coupling
cap should be about 22pF and the grid return about 10K. The 6AH6 is also a
sharp-cutoff pentode, so it will be very sensitive to small grid voltage
changes near cut-off.

Don't get distracted by the swings in screen volts, you are just drawing
large pulses of current and pulling the supply down. Unless the 0A2 is going
out of conduction RC oscillation is unlikely.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

BFoelsch wrote:
Watch the DC voltage on the grid. You will see it follow the relaxation
oscillator waveform when the thing is squegging.

What you write, which relates the Q (probably very low hundreds) of the
tuned circuit and it's frequency to the period the squegging, is in
good agreement with the squegging I observe. Will check the DC grid
voltage with the scope tonight.

Start by lowering the grid circuit resistance and lowering the capacitance
of the grid coupling capacitor. This will work to cure both evils. Taking a
quick look at the 6AH6 curves I would guess that, at 6 MHz, your coupling
cap should be about 22pF and the grid return about 10K.

The grid tuned circuit is at 1.8Mc, and the squegging seemed
insensitive to the coupling cap. 100pF is the handbook value, but I did
play around with it. Too small (39pF) and no oscillation. At 56pF there
was squegging.

Did not try playing with the grid return value (still at 47K from the
handbook), that may indeed be the key.

Tim.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Tim Wescott wrote:
What are the three terminals of your oscillator? Your screen is
grounded, so I assume that the grid and cathode are both floating at RF
-- is this so?

The circuit is the "tuned plate Hartley" as it appeared in any
50's/60's/70's ARRL handbook.

The grid tuned circuit is at 1.8Mc, the bottom end of the inductor is
grounded, there's a tap nominally one third of the way up to the
cathode, and the top of the inductor is connected via a 100pF capacitor
to the grid, which has a 47K to ground.

The plate circuit in my current incarnation is tuned to the harmonic at
3.6Mc. The "untuned plate" version in the handbook has a RF choke
instead of a plate tuned circuit, and indeed I had this on the bench
for a little while.

Tim.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Hand capacitance near the grid or on the tank coil would often break it
out of this mode and into more regular oscillation. Putting a 10x scope
probe on the grid sometimes broke it out of this mode too.

Any thoughts?

Tim KA0BTD


I normally don't post, but, since I have done my own amount of torturing of
the 6AH6, I think i know what the problem is.

The 6AH6 is slightly misnamed.
The 6AH6 isn't really a pentode.
It's just a really small beam power tetrode.
It has usable gain up to the UHF region.
And it suffers a lot of the same personality disorders of it's larger
brothers.

It's rated at 3.2 watts plate dissipation.
But I have ran it close up to about 12.5 watts for extended periods.
At that point, the tube starts to show obvious signs that it's close to the
breaking point.
The plate starts glow red, but it didn't kill it.
Probably hurt it a good amount, but it didn't kill it.

The more current it pulls, and the lower the input and output impedance,
the higher the tendency for it to break into oscillation.
It will oscillate up to the UHF region easily.
It's preferred method of oscillation is the grounded grid form.
The cathode is the input, and the anode is the output.

When you have low resistance feedback loop from the plate to the cathode
over six or so inches long, and start pulling a good bit of power, then it
can go at any time.

Look up parasitic oscillation in your handbook..
You will see the circuit that is causing it.
Large power tubes top out at 100Mc or so.
But this small one can go up to 400 to 900Mc if it's being driven hard
enough.

The loop is most likely from your plate, through the tuning cap of the
output tank.
The cap will look like a short circuit at UHF.
It will then go through the chassis.
And then through the cathode tank, which is shorted by the tank cap at UHF.

Ways to solve the problem.
Turn down the plate, and screen voltage.
It will drop beam current.
That will increase the resistance of the tube to the point it can't
parasitically oscillate.

Or you could put a 100 ohm or 1000 ohm resistor in the plate circuit.
In big amplifiers, where you can't tolerate a large resistance in the plate
lead,
they use parasitic chokes.
The appear as a short to DC, and the desired operating frequency.
But they appear as a high resistance to the VHF oscillating frequency.
It basically de-Qs the VHF oscillating circuit.

But you can tolerate a little bit of loss in the plate circuit of this unit.
So, just put a 100 ohm resistor in series with the plate.
If that don't work, then try a 1K resistor.
I am pretty sure that it will settle down and behave.
It will be a lot easier that winding a parasitic choke for it.

You also want to take a careful look at the screen circuit.
It can also act like an output in a parasitic oscillation.
So, try putting a 100, or 1K resistor in series with it too.

It's oscillating cycle.
It starts it's HF oscillation gain cycle.
The signal grows, and the tube bias increases.
The current on the positive peaks grown with it.
The current on the positive peaks get to the point that
the tube breaks into UHF oscillation.
The UHF oscillations are several times larger than the intended oscillation.
The UHF oscillation only last a fraction of the high frequency cycle.
When it starts it's UHF oscillation, it quickly charges the grid capacitor
up to a very high level.
Way past cutoff.
The UHF oscillation quickly extinguishes it's self.
But since the tube is in cutoff, the intended HF oscillation dies too.
The grid voltage drops back to normal, and the tube starts the cycle again.

Other ideas
You could also increase the grid leak resistance.
Push it up to 1M or so.
It will decrease the tank loading, and allow it to start easier.
And it won't pull so much positive peak grid current,
and cause the tube to conduct so heavily on the positive peaks.

You can tease out the UHF oscillation into the open if you short the primary
grid tank,
so it can't oscillate at it's intended frequency.
Basically, zero signal condition.
Then, push up the plate, and screen voltage.
If you have a little signal strength meter that works up to the UHF range,
with it's antenna clipped to the chassis, or wiring.
You will se it start to come alive.
You will be able to move your hand around the unit,
and it will break into, and out of oscillation.
Sometimes, it will motorboat, or operate continuously.

You want to change the circuit so that you can't get it go parasitic,
even when you really push it to it's limits..

Then un-short the tank and you are ready to go.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Tim,

My guess is the OA2 (Neon) and Cap combination is causing the problem.
Isn't that an oscillator in itself ?

Try replacing the OA2 with a Zener (or 3 in series). It may be a bit
noisy, but it may also be stable.

Or... a pair of resistors to derive 150V from HT. Just to see if squeg.
stability improves/changes. 15k + 18k for a 350V HT (just a guess).

-Mark

Tim Shoppa wrote:
I have been playing around with my homebrew VFO, a Hartley oscillator,
with a tapped inductor in the tank.

Rough parameters: 6AH6 pentode for the VFO, tank resonant at 1.8Mc,
plate circuit resonant at 3.6Mc. Rather low-Q plate tank (on purpose, I
want it to cover 100kc or so). Tank tapped about 1/3 of the way from
the bottom. 150V from an 0A2 on the screen, bypassed by a 0.005 uF
ceramic with short leads at the screen.

While playing around with it I found this weird mode where it wouldn't
necessarily start up in constant oscillation. It would repeatedly
(30000 times a second) start up (starting up very quickly, in just a
few cycles), grid and cathode circuit amplitude would build up to about
10V p-p, then the oscillations would slowly (over the next 30
microseconds) die down. Then it would repeat.

Hand capacitance near the grid or on the tank coil would often break it
out of this mode and into more regular oscillation. Putting a 10x scope
probe on the grid sometimes broke it out of this mode too.

What eventually made the circuit more reliable was putting a few
hundred ohms in series with the grid. But I don't understand exactly
how this helped.

My guess for this squegging mode is that the oscillator would suddenly
start, the tank would ring, the tank would ring hard enough that grid
current flowed, and that the grid current somehow would "latch" on
until oscillation died out, then it would repeat.

Or, just maybe, it's more closely related to screen current and maybe
some kind of oscillation of the 0A2 in the screen regulator. I tried
changing the dropping resistor feeding the 0A2 and a couple different
0A2's but the squegging seemed relatively insensitive to it.

Trying some other pentodes that were not so "hot" (e.g. 6AU6, 6BA6)
changed the squegging a little but it was still there.

My not-understood fix, putting a few hundred ohms in series with the
grid, is something that I've often seen in real-world circuits. I think
this is to provide some degeneration, and always was under the
impression that the degeneration was intended to prevent oscillation in
the VHF range. It is possible that the circuit was indeed oscillating
at a few hundred Mc but my scope (100Mc bandwidth) didn't see it. And I
don't know how a 200Mc parasitic might cause 30kc squegging.

Any thoughts?

Tim KA0BTD

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

N9WOS wrote:
I normally don't post, but, since I have done my own amount of torturing of
the 6AH6, I think i know what the problem is.

The 6AH6 is slightly misnamed.
The 6AH6 isn't really a pentode.
It's just a really small beam power tetrode.
It has usable gain up to the UHF region.
And it suffers a lot of the same personality disorders of it's larger
brothers.
Large power tubes top out at 100Mc or so.
But this small one can go up to 400 to 900Mc if it's being driven hard
enough.

The loop is most likely from your plate, through the tuning cap of the
output tank.

OK, I saw the parasitic last night!

I only have a 100MHz scope. Putting a scope probe on the circuit seems
to often kill the squegging. But I put a little loop on the end of the
scope probe and sniffed around, and indeed there was a 400MHz parasitic
that would build up over maybe 0.1usec. Then the impulse from this set
the tank ringing at 1.8MHz, and after the ringing mostly decayed
(30usec or so) the cycle would repeat.

There seemed to be the most energy at the well-bypassed screen and not
at the plate, but remember this is an electron-coupled oscillator so
the screen is working as a plate.

I guess even a 0.001uF ceramic cap with short leads isn't a good bypass
for 400MHz!

There must've been substantial 400MHz energy to show up on my 100MHz
scope :-).

My band-aid of a resistor in series with the grid seems to do the
trick.

Tim.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Tim Shoppa wrote:
N9WOS wrote:

I normally don't post, but, since I have done my own amount of torturing of
the 6AH6, I think i know what the problem is.

The 6AH6 is slightly misnamed.
The 6AH6 isn't really a pentode.
It's just a really small beam power tetrode.
It has usable gain up to the UHF region.
And it suffers a lot of the same personality disorders of it's larger
brothers.
Large power tubes top out at 100Mc or so.
But this small one can go up to 400 to 900Mc if it's being driven hard
enough.

The loop is most likely from your plate, through the tuning cap of the
output tank.


OK, I saw the parasitic last night!

I only have a 100MHz scope. Putting a scope probe on the circuit seems
to often kill the squegging. But I put a little loop on the end of the
scope probe and sniffed around, and indeed there was a 400MHz parasitic
that would build up over maybe 0.1usec. Then the impulse from this set
the tank ringing at 1.8MHz, and after the ringing mostly decayed
(30usec or so) the cycle would repeat.

There seemed to be the most energy at the well-bypassed screen and not
at the plate, but remember this is an electron-coupled oscillator so
the screen is working as a plate.

I guess even a 0.001uF ceramic cap with short leads isn't a good bypass
for 400MHz!

There must've been substantial 400MHz energy to show up on my 100MHz
scope :-).

My band-aid of a resistor in series with the grid seems to do the
trick.

Tim.

Your resistor in series with the grid would have much more effect on a
UHF oscillation than on one at 30kHz, indeed.

Even a 1nF chip cap soldered directly between the screen lead and
cathode of the tube would have the internal tube lead inductances to
contend with, so you're probably never going to 'get there from here' by
that method.

I wonder if a loading resistor in the screen lead instead of the grid
would work?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

N9WOS wrote:
Hand capacitance near the grid or on the tank coil would often break it
out of this mode and into more regular oscillation. Putting a 10x scope
probe on the grid sometimes broke it out of this mode too.


Any thoughts?

Tim KA0BTD



I normally don't post, but, since I have done my own amount of torturing of
the 6AH6, I think i know what the problem is.

The 6AH6 is slightly misnamed.
The 6AH6 isn't really a pentode.
It's just a really small beam power tetrode.
It has usable gain up to the UHF region.
And it suffers a lot of the same personality disorders of it's larger
brothers.

It's rated at 3.2 watts plate dissipation.
But I have ran it close up to about 12.5 watts for extended periods.
At that point, the tube starts to show obvious signs that it's close to the
breaking point.
The plate starts glow red, but it didn't kill it.
Probably hurt it a good amount, but it didn't kill it.

The more current it pulls, and the lower the input and output impedance,
the higher the tendency for it to break into oscillation.
It will oscillate up to the UHF region easily.
It's preferred method of oscillation is the grounded grid form.
The cathode is the input, and the anode is the output.

When you have low resistance feedback loop from the plate to the cathode
over six or so inches long, and start pulling a good bit of power, then it
can go at any time.

Look up parasitic oscillation in your handbook..
You will see the circuit that is causing it.
Large power tubes top out at 100Mc or so.
But this small one can go up to 400 to 900Mc if it's being driven hard
enough.

The loop is most likely from your plate, through the tuning cap of the
output tank.
The cap will look like a short circuit at UHF.
It will then go through the chassis.
And then through the cathode tank, which is shorted by the tank cap at UHF.

Ways to solve the problem.
Turn down the plate, and screen voltage.
It will drop beam current.
That will increase the resistance of the tube to the point it can't
parasitically oscillate.

Or you could put a 100 ohm or 1000 ohm resistor in the plate circuit.
In big amplifiers, where you can't tolerate a large resistance in the plate
lead,
they use parasitic chokes.
The appear as a short to DC, and the desired operating frequency.
But they appear as a high resistance to the VHF oscillating frequency.
It basically de-Qs the VHF oscillating circuit.

But you can tolerate a little bit of loss in the plate circuit of this unit.
So, just put a 100 ohm resistor in series with the plate.
If that don't work, then try a 1K resistor.
I am pretty sure that it will settle down and behave.
It will be a lot easier that winding a parasitic choke for it.

You also want to take a careful look at the screen circuit.
It can also act like an output in a parasitic oscillation.
So, try putting a 100, or 1K resistor in series with it too.

It's oscillating cycle.
It starts it's HF oscillation gain cycle.
The signal grows, and the tube bias increases.
The current on the positive peaks grown with it.
The current on the positive peaks get to the point that
the tube breaks into UHF oscillation.
The UHF oscillations are several times larger than the intended oscillation.
The UHF oscillation only last a fraction of the high frequency cycle.
When it starts it's UHF oscillation, it quickly charges the grid capacitor
up to a very high level.
Way past cutoff.
The UHF oscillation quickly extinguishes it's self.
But since the tube is in cutoff, the intended HF oscillation dies too.
The grid voltage drops back to normal, and the tube starts the cycle again.

Other ideas
You could also increase the grid leak resistance.
Push it up to 1M or so.
It will decrease the tank loading, and allow it to start easier.
And it won't pull so much positive peak grid current,
and cause the tube to conduct so heavily on the positive peaks.

You can tease out the UHF oscillation into the open if you short the primary
grid tank,
so it can't oscillate at it's intended frequency.
Basically, zero signal condition.
Then, push up the plate, and screen voltage.
If you have a little signal strength meter that works up to the UHF range,
with it's antenna clipped to the chassis, or wiring.
You will se it start to come alive.
You will be able to move your hand around the unit,
and it will break into, and out of oscillation.
Sometimes, it will motorboat, or operate continuously.

You want to change the circuit so that you can't get it go parasitic,
even when you really push it to it's limits..

Then un-short the tank and you are ready to go.




Nice post. A while ago, I went into "hair-pulling mode"
the other way - *trying* to cause squegging in a one
transistor DC-DC booster. Finally got it with a bit
of fiddling. Maybe it belongs under Murphy's section
on oscillators:

When you don't want oscillation, it will oscillate
When you want oscillation, it won't
When you want to get rid of squegging, you can't
When you want squegging, it won't

Do all Parisitics (sic) come from Paris? :-)

Ed

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Tim Shoppa wrote:
N9WOS wrote:

I normally don't post, but, since I have done my own amount of
torturing of
the 6AH6, I think i know what the problem is.

The 6AH6 is slightly misnamed.
The 6AH6 isn't really a pentode.
It's just a really small beam power tetrode.
It has usable gain up to the UHF region.
And it suffers a lot of the same personality disorders of it's larger
brothers.
Large power tubes top out at 100Mc or so.
But this small one can go up to 400 to 900Mc if it's being driven hard
enough.

The loop is most likely from your plate, through the tuning cap of the
output tank.


OK, I saw the parasitic last night!

I only have a 100MHz scope. Putting a scope probe on the circuit seems
to often kill the squegging. But I put a little loop on the end of the
scope probe and sniffed around, and indeed there was a 400MHz parasitic
that would build up over maybe 0.1usec. Then the impulse from this set
the tank ringing at 1.8MHz, and after the ringing mostly decayed
(30usec or so) the cycle would repeat.

There seemed to be the most energy at the well-bypassed screen and not
at the plate, but remember this is an electron-coupled oscillator so
the screen is working as a plate.

I guess even a 0.001uF ceramic cap with short leads isn't a good bypass
for 400MHz!

There must've been substantial 400MHz energy to show up on my 100MHz
scope :-).

My band-aid of a resistor in series with the grid seems to do the
trick.

Tim.

Your resistor in series with the grid would have much more effect on a
UHF oscillation than on one at 30kHz, indeed.

Even a 1nF chip cap soldered directly between the screen lead and
cathode of the tube would have the internal tube lead inductances to
contend with, so you're probably never going to 'get there from here' by
that method.

I wonder if a loading resistor in the screen lead instead of the grid
would work?

Yes.
My original reply also mentions that.

.....................................
You also want to take a careful look at the screen circuit.
It can also act like an output in a parasitic oscillation.
So, try putting a 100, or 1K resistor in series with it too.
.....................................

He says that the .001uf cap isn't much good at bypassing.
The problem is it's too good at bypassing.
It acts as a short to the UHF parasitic.
That allows enough UHF energy to be conducted to the chassis to allow it to
go parasitic.
Shorting the energy to the chassis, isn't the cure to the problem, its the
cause of the problem.

So I will clarify my previous statement.

You want a 100, or 1000 ohm resister in series with the screen.
Between the bypass cap, and the screen.
Not between the bypass cap, and the supply.

You want to isolate the capacitance from the screen.
That will break the loop required for oscillation.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

When you don't want oscillation, it will oscillate
When you want oscillation, it won't
When you want to get rid of squegging, you can't
When you want squegging, it won't

I have a hard problem making a amplifier that can put out a solid 1.8Mhz
signal.
But I can build a DC power supply that produces a quality 80Mhz signal.

Maybe, if i want an oscillator, I should try to build a DC supply circuit,
and vice versa.
I will figure it out one of these days.

Do all Parisitics (sic) come from Paris? :-)

Ed

They always talk about the French whine. :-)

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

Since a 220 pf capacitor with ½" leads self-resonates somewhere around 150
MHz., you might want to do the old "put a variable capacitor between screen
and cathode and tune for minimum squeeg" trick. All you are doing is making
a series resonant circuit with the stray inductance of the tube and the
variable capacitor to short whatever nasties you don't want out.

Jim


"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Tim Shoppa wrote:
N9WOS wrote:


Even a 1nF chip cap soldered directly between the screen lead and cathode
of the tube would have the internal tube lead inductances to contend with,
so you're probably never going to 'get there from here' by that method.

I wonder if a loading resistor in the screen lead instead of the grid
would work?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

N9WOS wrote:
You also want to take a careful look at the screen circuit.
It can also act like an output in a parasitic oscillation.
So, try putting a 100, or 1K resistor in series with it too.

Indeed this is a working fix, as I verified on the bench.

It's oscillating cycle.
It starts it's HF oscillation gain cycle.

Actually in my particular case it appears that the UHF parasitic starts
first. But probably just the luck of the bias point.

The signal grows, and the tube bias increases.
The current on the positive peaks grown with it.
The current on the positive peaks get to the point that
the tube breaks into UHF oscillation.
The UHF oscillations are several times larger than the intended oscillation.

Very true here - this is in fact the only time I've seen 400MHz stuff
on my 100MHz scope, so I'm guessing that there is substantial UHF
energy there.

The UHF oscillation only last a fraction of the high frequency cycle.

This part is very true too. Tiny tiny fraction of a microsecond. My
interpretation of the scope trace is that the UHF activity gives the
the HF tank a "kick" and it rings for a while.

Tim.

Squegging in LC oscillators
 

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 08:39:34 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
N9WOS wrote:
You also want to take a careful look at the screen circuit. It can also
act like an output in a parasitic oscillation. So, try putting a 100, or
1K resistor in series with it too.

Indeed this is a working fix, as I verified on the bench.

It's oscillating cycle.
It starts it's HF oscillation gain cycle.

Actually in my particular case it appears that the UHF parasitic starts
first. But probably just the luck of the bias point.

Check for dynatron oscillations; the screen acts as a plate, sort of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynatron_oscillator

I can't find a schematic of one, but it's just an oscillator with feedback
from the screen to the grid.

How long are the leads of your screen bypass cap, and where are they
soldered down?

Thanks,
Rich