Michael Black wrote:

snip

I am blank about how they worked. It may be like a synchronized
oscillator, using the crystal oscillator to sync a free running
neon bulb multivibrator.

Neon bulb bistable multivibrators were staples of low speed digital
counters and of course electronic organs; the circuit relies on
hysteresis of twin bulbs connected through a common (cathode)
resistor. I may post links to some example implementation diagrams.

There were also pulse counters, collect pulses until they voltage
of the collected pulses trigger something and it starts over again.


One can use a charge pump (diode pump) to accumulate (constant
width and amplitude) pulses until neon bulb breakdown potential
is reached and the bulb discharges the output capacitor restarting
the cycle.

Regards,

Michael

In article ,
Michael Black wrote:
do you have a link for using a neon lamp as a frequency divider? This is
the first reference I've seen for this, and I'm fascinated to learn more
about it.

Peter


When I saw Colin start to suggest a tube calibrator, my thought was
"what will you use for a divider, a neon bulb?"

But like him, I can't put my fingers on a circuit. Undoubtedly
somewhere someone did build a crystal calibrator with a neon divider
to get closer together markers, before there were IC dividers.

Another common place would be electronic organs, they'd use neon
bulb dividers to get the next lower octave from a master oscillator.

I'm sure in those "101 things to do with Neon Bulb" books, or even
the wide coverage articles in the magazines, would have a divider.

There's a section in my GE "Glow Lamp Manual" on neon dividers.


sync in -------------+
|
250 V ----/\/\/\---+---|*|-----+------|*|-----gnd
5.6M | n1 n2
|
+------|(-----+-------|(----gnd
| c1 | c2
| +------- output
|
|
+------|(-----+-------|(----gnd
c3 | c4
+------- sync output

C2 = 10 * C1 (For 200 Hz output, .005 and .05 uF)
C3 = C4 = 100 pF

The problem here is that neon bulb relaxation oscillators top out
at, according to the charts in the book, at between 10 and 30 kilohertz,
depending on bulb type.

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

"Mark Zenier" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The problem here is that neon bulb relaxation oscillators top out
at, according to the charts in the book, at between 10 and 30 kilohertz,
depending on bulb type.

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)


I was curious if there was a limit on the upper frequency, and I was
wondering
about the waveform as well; that is if the circuit can produce strong
harmonics
up into the upper HF regions. It would be an interesting project to build!

Pete

Hi Colin

Thats the one, you've confirmed the device line-up,a 4016was
incorrectly in the place where a 4013 should have been, so it's no
surprise the marker wasn't functioning correctly.

There's a separate band-edge marker using a 3.5 MHz xtal.

Many thanks de miken, zl1bnb



On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:25:26 -0700, "COLIN LAMB"
wrote:

Hello Miken:

I found my 1981 ARRL Handbook. They have a "marker" generator, which uses
an LF-353, a 4001 and a 4013 - all integrated circuits. There is also a
simple 2 transistor 100 kHz oscillator.

The marker generator puts out 100, 50 and 25 kHz.

When I read the request for a circuit to supplement a glowbug, I thought a
tube crystal calibrator would be what was wanted, and thought perhaps the
later 1981 edition might have abandoned a tube version. So, I pulled out a
1972 ARRL Handbook and even then all they had was solid state.

If you are going to use integrated circuits in a glowbug receiver, you need
to hide them, since it is unbecoming and might cause others to ridicule the
otherwise heroic effort to recreate a glorious radio. A simple tube can do
a wonderful job of putting out 100 kHz signals, and if you want 50 kHz, you
can use a neon bulb divider.

Many of the simple receivers I built would have been lost with a 100 kHz
marker. A 1 MHz marker would have been more useful, and even then I was
guessing at the which MHz it was. The best marker was simply a crystal in
the ham band and a known point. Something like 3550 kHz, which could also
be used to spot at 7100 kHz. Even odd marked frequencies are useful - then
a properly hand calibrated graph laminated on the front panel (ala HRO) will
give a feeling that none of the wonderful new rigs can touch.

73, Colin K7FM

Is there anyone in the group who has a 1980 ARRL handbook who could
scan and email me the circuit of the xtal calibrator/marker generator.
I've a friend building replica glowbug regen receivers who needs this
info to help get his unit operational.

Maybe the following will be of help:

QST page:
* 12, May '37: "A 100-Kc. E.C. Oscillator for Frequency Checking"
uses a 24A tube
* 53, May '37: "100-kc. Calibrating Oscillator" uses a 6L6 tube
* 40, Jan '39: 1000 Kc calibrator uses 6F6 tube
* 34, Sep '41: 50-, 100-, and 1000-kc oscillator uses three switched
LC combinations and one 117L7GT tube
* 52, May '45: "Battery-powered one-tube 450- and 1500-kc. signal
generator" (1G4, 1H5, or 30 tube)
* 31, Oct '51: Uses both halves of a 6SN7 dual triode to produce
50-kc signals
* 68, May '52: "Simple crystal marker oscillator" uses a 6J5 tube
plus two resistors and 'most any crystal.
This is the SIMPLIST calibrator circuit I've seen!
* 41, Jun '52: "...Frequency Standard...Oscillator" uses a 6F6
oscillator, both halves of a 6SN7 as a multivibrator,
and a 6K8 buffer/mixer to give 100-kc and 10-kc points
* 43, Sep '52: "Fig. 2 - Oscillator circuit for a simple 100-kc crystal
standard" uses a 6AU6 tube and NO inductor!
* 40, Jul '54: Uses a 6AK5 to produce 100/50-kc harmonics
* 14, Mar '55: "Frequency Marker with 50-Kc. Intervals" uses a 6AK5
and both "halves" of a 6U8 to provide harmonics up
to 30 Mc.
* 61, Jul '59: "100-kc calibrator with 1-kc markers" uses a 6AU6
oscillator and an NE-2 sub-harmonic generator
* 30, Mar '62: Uses a 6AU6 oscillator at 100 kc and a 12AU7
multivibrator to also give 50 kc markers
* 33, Jan '65: Uses a 6AQ5 oscillator at 100 kc and a 6AS6 10-kc
sub-harmonic generator (no diode and NO inductors!)
* 34, May '65: Uses a 6AU6 oscillator at 100 kc, a 12AU7 multi-
vibrator for 10 kc points, and another 12AU7
ACCURACY: multivibrator for 1 kc points!


CQ page:
* 35, Jul '47: "A Simple Frequency Standard" uses both halves of a 6SN7
and one semiconductor diode (an easily-hidden 1N34) to
produce 1000- and 100-kc signals up to about 60 mc.
* ??, Apr '55: "500-kc Marker" uses a 6AU6 tube
* 29, Dec '55: "A Heterodyne Crystal Calibrator AND CODE PRACTICE
OSCILLATOR" uses both halves of a 7N7, 6SN7, or 12AU7
(or pairs of many triodes) and two crystals to give
marker signals at the DIFFERENCE of the two crystals

RADIO-ELECTRONICS page:
* 34, Oct '55: "Dual-Frequency Crystal Calibrator" uses a dual-
frequency crystal and a 6AK5 to produce outputs at
1000- and 100-kc. Adds a 1N34 diode and a 6BE6 tube
to make a harmonic generator. Adds an NE-51 as a
relaxation oscillator to make the marker points
more-easily recognized!
* 52, Sep '66: "Crystal Calibrator" for CB; uses a 6C4 oscillator

If those aren't enough, I can also cite several "utility oscillators"
(which are usually coil-less).

--
--Myron A. Calhoun.
Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge
NRA Life Member & Certified Instructor for Rifle, Pistol, & Home Firearm Safety
Also Certified Instructor for the Kansas Concealed-Carry Handgun (CCH) license

Myron, you get the research gold star. I see the 1959 QST article uses a
neon bulb, although it was not the one I was thinking of. I think I quit in
QST when I got to 1959 because I thought the transistors would eliminate the
tube dividers. I was about to go through CQ, though, so you saved a lot of
time there.

Colin K7FM

Myron, you get the research gold star.

Thanks.


I see the 1959 QST article uses a neon bulb, although it was not the one
I was thinking of....

That one used the NE-51? Another one used an NE-2.


I was about to go through CQ, though, so you saved a lot of time there.

For the almost-50 years I've been a ham, my method of indexing articles
has been to TEAR & FILE. Most QST's, CQ's, HAM RADIO, RADIO ELECTRONICS,
RADIO & TELEVISION (in its many incarnations), 73's, and several other
electronic-related magazines, including many printed before I was born,
have passed through my ripping claws, so all I did was turn to the right
file (labeled "frequency standards", in this case) and start listing them.

I also have an almost-complete set of QST's dating back through 1936,
but quit saving the actual magazines in 1977 (78?) when they went to
the bigger format. I'm thought about buying the CD set, but, at my
age, the payback will not happen.

Unfortunately, I've spent more time tearing & filing than I have building,
and now, what with the Internet.... Someday I've just gotta get my
priorities right.

--73, Myron, W0PBV.
--
--Myron A. Calhoun.
Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge
NRA Life Member & Certified Instructor for Rifle, Pistol, & Home Firearm Safety
Also Certified Instructor for the Kansas Concealed-Carry Handgun (CCH) license

"COLIN LAMB" ) writes:
Myron, you get the research gold star. I see the 1959 QST article uses a
neon bulb, although it was not the one I was thinking of. I think I quit in
QST when I got to 1959 because I thought the transistors would eliminate the
tube dividers. I was about to go through CQ, though, so you saved a lot of
time there.

I would have stopped about then also, not so much that we'd see dividers
at that point, they were never a routine part of crystal calibrators
until logic ICs became readily available (you did see dividers before,
but they weren't common), but because transistors were starting to
come in. Transistors were ideal for such small projects, because they
didn't need filament power (or B+), and they weren't ready for power
or high frequency use.

The earliest Handbook I have is 1961, and I see a transistorized
crystal calibrator but no tube based one.

Michael VE2BVW

On 25 Sep 2007 23:29:55 -0500, wrote:

Is there anyone in the group who has a 1980 ARRL handbook who could
scan and email me the circuit of the xtal calibrator/marker generator.
I've a friend building replica glowbug regen receivers who needs this
info to help get his unit operational.

Maybe the following will be of help:

QST page:
* 12, May '37: "A 100-Kc. E.C. Oscillator for Frequency Checking"
uses a 24A tube
* 53, May '37: "100-kc. Calibrating Oscillator" uses a 6L6 tube
* 40, Jan '39: 1000 Kc calibrator uses 6F6 tube
* 34, Sep '41: 50-, 100-, and 1000-kc oscillator uses three switched
LC combinations and one 117L7GT tube
* 52, May '45: "Battery-powered one-tube 450- and 1500-kc. signal
generator" (1G4, 1H5, or 30 tube)
* 31, Oct '51: Uses both halves of a 6SN7 dual triode to produce
50-kc signals
* 68, May '52: "Simple crystal marker oscillator" uses a 6J5 tube
plus two resistors and 'most any crystal.
This is the SIMPLIST calibrator circuit I've seen!
* 41, Jun '52: "...Frequency Standard...Oscillator" uses a 6F6
oscillator, both halves of a 6SN7 as a multivibrator,
and a 6K8 buffer/mixer to give 100-kc and 10-kc points
* 43, Sep '52: "Fig. 2 - Oscillator circuit for a simple 100-kc crystal
standard" uses a 6AU6 tube and NO inductor!
* 40, Jul '54: Uses a 6AK5 to produce 100/50-kc harmonics
* 14, Mar '55: "Frequency Marker with 50-Kc. Intervals" uses a 6AK5
and both "halves" of a 6U8 to provide harmonics up
to 30 Mc.
* 61, Jul '59: "100-kc calibrator with 1-kc markers" uses a 6AU6
oscillator and an NE-2 sub-harmonic generator
* 30, Mar '62: Uses a 6AU6 oscillator at 100 kc and a 12AU7
multivibrator to also give 50 kc markers
* 33, Jan '65: Uses a 6AQ5 oscillator at 100 kc and a 6AS6 10-kc
sub-harmonic generator (no diode and NO inductors!)
* 34, May '65: Uses a 6AU6 oscillator at 100 kc, a 12AU7 multi-
vibrator for 10 kc points, and another 12AU7
ACCURACY: multivibrator for 1 kc points!


CQ page:
* 35, Jul '47: "A Simple Frequency Standard" uses both halves of a 6SN7
and one semiconductor diode (an easily-hidden 1N34) to
produce 1000- and 100-kc signals up to about 60 mc.
* ??, Apr '55: "500-kc Marker" uses a 6AU6 tube
* 29, Dec '55: "A Heterodyne Crystal Calibrator AND CODE PRACTICE
OSCILLATOR" uses both halves of a 7N7, 6SN7, or 12AU7
(or pairs of many triodes) and two crystals to give
marker signals at the DIFFERENCE of the two crystals

RADIO-ELECTRONICS page:
* 34, Oct '55: "Dual-Frequency Crystal Calibrator" uses a dual-
frequency crystal and a 6AK5 to produce outputs at
1000- and 100-kc. Adds a 1N34 diode and a 6BE6 tube
to make a harmonic generator. Adds an NE-51 as a
relaxation oscillator to make the marker points
more-easily recognized!
* 52, Sep '66: "Crystal Calibrator" for CB; uses a 6C4 oscillator

If those aren't enough, I can also cite several "utility oscillators"
(which are usually coil-less).

That's a great list of projects.

I've suggested to ZL2CDH who builds the glow-bug rigs, that he makes a
marker/generator using some of the hollow-state devices.

Thanks MikeN, zl1bnb

"miken" wrote in message
...
Hi all

Is there anyone in the group who has a 1980 ARRL handbook who could
scan and email me the circuit of the xtal calibrator/marker generator.
I've a friend building replica glowbug regen receivers who needs this
info to help get his unit operational.

Thanks miken, zl1bnb

Try the BAMA boatanchor manual archive. I know at least the calibrator
schematic for the Heath HR-10 receiver is posted there. It should be
easy to duplicate.

Pete