On Sep 4, 9:11 pm, raypsi wrote:
On Sep 3, 2:54 pm, Michael Black wrote:



On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, raypsi wrote:
Hey Gary,

Rocks aren't cheap hehttp://www.icmfg.com/thruhole_crystals.html
Maybe in 9 land they pave the streets with gold.
Personally I'd go with a programmable divider or PLL.

Maybe you like retro, then I'd get some old rocks the ones
you can take apart and grind them down to git's the freq's you need.

And you can't grind them unless they are quite close to the desired
frequency. Grinding by hand will be too uneven, so the crystal will
stop working if you try to grind it more than a tiny bit.

It also relies on a big stock of crystals spread around so you can
find one sufficiently close enough, something that did seem possible
in the years after WWII, but after all this time attrition may have
reduced the stock considerably.

And realistically, they also have to be bulky FT-243 holders, since
those you can open by removing screws, and the blank is held in place
with pressure. More recent holder types require desoldering the case,
and figuring out how to remove the blank and then get it back in place
when it's soldered in place (or something like that I can't remember how
the blank is connected).

One of the odd things is that if one has to buy new crystals, a
synthesizer will likely be far cheaper. In the early seventies,
synthesizers made a big splash because everyone wanted lots of channels
on 2m FM, and the need to have them ground to frequency (and to equipment)
made it all very costly, so synthesizers despite their cost and bulk
became the norm.

Almost forty years later, a synthesizer for a handful of crystals would
still be comparatively bulky, but would be even cheaper than in the early
seventies.

Michael VE2BVW

Believe it or not I was making a living sell rocks HI HI back forty
years ago.
It was like there was a freaking crystal company on every corner.
There was so
much competition back then the prices was chump change. The crystal
companies
could have put the big hurt on PLL or programmable dividers. I know
the real
reason crystals took a back seat, and it;s not what anybody thinks
happened.

73 OM

n8zu

You don't see any newbies on here making any rock controlled hets..
It's like vinyl records or CD's
they is all gone. They don't want you to know about crystals there is
to much
power in that knowledge. They want everyone dumbed down so they can be
controlled,
that's why they did away with code, nobody will ever know it ever
existed in 5 years time.

73
n8zu

The real reason for the popularity of synthesizers is cost. When you
need a new rock for every band they get costly, but a synthesizer
doesn't. This wasn't practical until chips that could do most of the
work became cheap.

The main reason for eliminating the commercial operator licenses was
cost too. Here's what happened:

There was a time, not so long ago, when there were a large number of
tasks that could only be performed (legally, anyway) by a person with
an FCC Commercial Operator license. No others need apply, regardless
of experience, education or background. Either you were a Radio
Operator of a certain class, or you weren't.

Those licenses meant that a person with a high-school education and
some smarts could have a good middle-class income if they had the
license. Not that all the jobs were easy, or that you didn't need a
certain amount of knowledge to do them, but that the Commercial
license became the equivalent of a union card, and the jobs were, in a
way, protected by FCC regulations.

In other words, the Commercial licenses protected a craft known as
Radio Operators, with a set of skills and knowledge specific to them,
and jobs only they could do.

The masters of industry didn't like that, so they prevailed on the FCC
to reduce the requirements and eliminate most of the licenses and the
requirements for tasks to be done only by Radio Operators. The jobs
went with them.

This is also why the maritime services went to satellite-based comms
rather than HF and MF radio and Morse Code - it eliminated the need
for ships to carry licensed Radio Operators.

Oddly enough, FCC still issues Commercial RadioTelegraph licenses,
both First and Second Class, though I don't know where in the USA you
can get the required experience for a First Class.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Sep 6, 7:38�pm, raypsi wrote:

They want everyone dumbed down so they can be
controlled,
that's why they did away with code, nobody will ever know it ever
existed in 5 years time.

They didn't do away with Morse Code. They did away with the test for
it. It was done a little at a time over the past 30 years.

My personal theory on why it was eliminated is this:

Since the early 1980s, the FCC has been required to do more and more
stuff with less and less resources. So they have constantly sought out
ways to reduce their workload, particularly for radio services that
don't bring in $$, like ham radio.

That's why they turned over the job of amateur license testing to the
QPC and VECs back in 1983 or so. Instead of paid FCC employees making
up and conducting amateur license tests, unpaid volunteers do almost
all the work. It's also why they doubled the license term to 10 years
about that same time - reduces the number of renewals by half.

Reducing the number of license classes reduces the number of tests and
the number of upgrade applications to process. In the old days when
there were six license classes, a ham who went from Novice or Tech to
Extra could upgrade as many as four times. Now there are only two
steps.

Eliminating the Morse Code test means one less license test. Less
work.

But even though the last remnants of the Morse Code test were removed
back in February 2007, there are still plenty of hams using it on the
air. This past Field Day, for example, the group I went with had one
Morse Code station and three voice stations, all similarly equipped.
There were three Morse Code operators and far more voice ops, yet the
Morse Code station made more QSOs than all the voice stations
combined. This wasn't a surprise, either.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Sep 6, 9:03*pm, wrote:
They didn't do away with Morse Code. They did away with the test
for
it. It was done a little at a time over the past 30 years.
hey jim:
Sorry I wasn't talking Morse code, .
Real Morse code nobody knows. That is lost already gone kaput history.
Vail invented the code you so aptly call Morse, So it's not real Morse
code
it's Vail code. What is really lost: everybody still calls it Morse
code.

I think I could make some money fire up the ole solar powered kiln and
start growing quartz.
I break out that old ARRL handbook that tells you exactly how to cut
the crystals
for the desired frequencies and sell them for 50 cent apiece.
I'd make so much money in volume sales.

73 OM
n8zu

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008, raypsi wrote:

On Sep 6, 9:03*pm, wrote:
They didn't do away with Morse Code. They did away with the test
for
it. It was done a little at a time over the past 30 years.
hey jim:
Sorry I wasn't talking Morse code, .
Real Morse code nobody knows. That is lost already gone kaput history.
Vail invented the code you so aptly call Morse, So it's not real Morse
code
it's Vail code. What is really lost: everybody still calls it Morse
code.

I think I could make some money fire up the ole solar powered kiln and
start growing quartz.
I break out that old ARRL handbook that tells you exactly how to cut
the crystals
for the desired frequencies and sell them for 50 cent apiece.
I'd make so much money in volume sales.

Nobody has ground their crystals from scratch since about the 1930's,
if even then. I've been licensed since 1972 and in all the time since
then I've never seen anything about it, not in magazines and books
going back to the late 1940's and not in more recent material. I do
recall the 1964 article in QST about a buy in SOuth America who made
his own tubes.

Go back far enough, and hams just needed crystals within the band.
They had relatively little need for exact frequencies.

I suspect even if the Handbook did give such details at one time,
little bits may be lost since when something is current, "everyone
knows" things that may not be obvious to someone who comes later.

Now, they need them on exact frequencies, and they want them in
nice small packages, none of those FT-243 ones that were held together
with pressure.

Even if you can so easily grind a piece of quartz to frequency, packaging
them will be problematic, since a sealed metal case is going to be a lot
more trouble than an FT-243 package.


Michael VE2BVW

"Michael Black" wrote in message
ample.org...
On Sun, 7 Sep 2008, raypsi wrote:

On Go back far enough, and hams just needed crystals within the band.
They had relatively little need for exact frequencies.

And Novice regulations required the use of Xtal control, a ready
market...

I suspect even if the Handbook did give such details at one time,
little bits may be lost since when something is current, "everyone
knows" things that may not be obvious to someone who comes later.

Tools, techiques, sources for raw or processed materials. WWII
end provided what seemed to be an endless supply of radio
related parts and equipment. Tons of FT-243 xtals, ready to
use or to regrind, etc. I remember when one could find surplus
455kc xtals to make SSB filters; they are unobtanium now.

Pete, k1zjh

Michael VE2BVW

On Sep 7, 2:43�pm, Michael Black wrote:

Nobody has ground their crystals from scratch
since about the 1930's,
if even then. �I've been licensed since 1972 and in all the time
since
then I've never seen anything about it, not in magazines and books
going back to the late 1940's and not in more recent material.

There were articles in QST in the 1920s about cutting and grinding
your own crystals from the raw quartz, making holders, etc. A lot of
work and specialized equipment. The market was such that the
specialists quickly took over in the early 1930s.

After WW2 the enormous amount of surplus dominated the amateur market
for decades. Many of the "new" FT-243 crystals we bought were actually
surplus holders with new crystal inside.

�I do
recall the 1964 article in QST about a buy in SOuth America who
made his own tubes.

There's a guy in France doing it today. Has a movie on his website.
But again, lots of work and specialized equipment.

Go back far enough, and hams just needed crystals within
the band.
They had relatively little need for exact frequencies.

Well, yes and no.

Some xtal frequencies were more prized than others, because the
harmonics fell in higher bands.

I suspect even if the Handbook did give such details at one time,
little bits may be lost since when something is current, "everyone
knows" things that may not be obvious to someone who comes
later.

That's true of many things. Reading older radio books and magazines
can require knowledge of a lot of the jargon and methods of the day.

Now, they need them on exact frequencies, and they want them in
nice small packages, none of those FT-243 ones that were held
together with pressure.

The big difference is plated electrodes vs. pressure electrodes.
FT-243s are capable of quite good accuracy; .005% was common, which
works out to 200 Hz at 4 MHz.

Pre-WW2 xtals were big and rugged, but used a lot of quartz. Radio-
grade natural quartz came almost exclusively from Brazil, and the
difficulty of supply caused US xtal makers to develop xtal designs
that used less quartz. The FT-243 was ultra-miniature in its time!

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Sep 7, 8:46*pm, wrote:
On Sep 7, 2:43 pm, Michael Black wrote:



Nobody has ground their crystals from scratch
since about the 1930's,
if even then. I've been licensed since 1972 and in all the time
since
then I've never seen anything about it, not in magazines and books
going back to the late 1940's and not in more recent material.

There were articles in QST in the 1920s about cutting and grinding
your own crystals from the raw quartz, making holders, etc. A lot of
work and specialized equipment. The market was such that the
specialists quickly took over in the early 1930s.

After WW2 the enormous amount of surplus dominated the amateur market
for decades. Many of the "new" FT-243 crystals we bought were actually
surplus holders with new crystal inside.

I do
recall the 1964 article in QST about a buy in SOuth America who
made his own tubes.

There's a guy in France doing it today. Has a movie on his website.
But again, lots of work and specialized equipment.

Go back far enough, and hams just needed crystals within
the band.
They had relatively little need for exact frequencies.

Well, yes and no.

Some xtal frequencies were more prized than others, because the
harmonics fell in higher bands.

I suspect even if the Handbook did give such details at one time,
little bits may be lost since when something is current, "everyone
knows" things that may not be obvious to someone who comes
later.

That's true of many things. Reading older radio books and magazines
can require knowledge of a lot of the jargon and methods of the day.



Now, they need them on exact frequencies, and they want them in
nice small packages, none of those FT-243 ones that were held
together with pressure.

The big difference is plated electrodes vs. pressure electrodes.
FT-243s are capable of quite good accuracy; .005% was common, which
works out to 200 Hz at 4 MHz.

Pre-WW2 xtals were big and rugged, but used a lot of quartz. Radio-
grade natural quartz came almost exclusively from Brazil, and the
difficulty of supply caused US xtal makers to develop xtal designs
that used less quartz. The FT-243 was ultra-miniature in its time!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Absolutely jim

Looky at the January 1934 issue of QST.it's all there.
A yl friend of mine told me bigger is better, I know she's right
even when it comes to crystals.

As far as accuracy goes you know you can pull it to the frequency you
want
if your'e close enough, it's the oven you need to keep em on
frequency.

73 OM
n8zu

wrote:

My personal theory on why it [code test] was eliminated is this:
Since the early 1980s, the FCC has been required to do more and more
stuff with less and less resources. So they have constantly sought out
ways to reduce their workload, particularly for radio services that
don't bring in $$, like ham radio.

And another theory is that the code mode is simply obsolete so why test
for it. No more horse driving government tests either. Course
for people who like it, they can still work CW and drive horses.

But even though the last remnants of the Morse Code test were removed
back in February 2007, there are still plenty of hams using it on the
air.

Yea, but there's less and less each year as the old guys die off. I know
you work CW so you know that the vast majority of your CW QSOs are with
people in their 60's and over. One foot in the proverbial grave.

This past Field Day, for example, the group I went with had one
Morse Code station and three voice stations, all similarly equipped.
There were three Morse Code operators and far more voice ops, yet the
Morse Code station made more QSOs than all the voice stations
combined. This wasn't a surprise, either.

You don't really call those guys with the computers and keyboards
who ruin the CW bands on contest weekends CW ops do you ???

On Sep 8, 1:33�am, AJ Lake wrote:
wrote:
My personal theory on why it [code test] was eliminated is this:
Since the early 1980s, the FCC has been required to do more and more
stuff with less and less resources. So they have constantly sought out
ways to reduce their workload, particularly for radio services that
don't bring in $$, like ham radio.

And another theory is that the code mode is simply obsolete so why test
for it. No more horse driving government tests either. Course
for people who like it, they can still work CW and drive horses.

That theory doesn't hold water because Morse Code isn't obsolete on
the HF/MF ham bands. You hear a lot more hams using Morse Code on
those bands than you see people riding or driving horses.

A much more reasonable theory would be that most states do not test a
driver's ability to operate a manual transmission.

But even though the last remnants of the Morse Code test were removed
back in February 2007, there are still plenty of hams using it on the
air.

Yea, but there's less and less each year as the old guys die off.

That doesn't seem to be happening. Groups such as FISTS and SKCC have
increasing numbers of members. Participation in contests using Morse
Code isn't declining increasing even with terrible sunspot numbers.
Look at the results of the ARRL 160 meter contest for the past several
years - and it's all-CW.

I know
you work CW so you know that the vast majority of your CW QSOs are with
people in their 60's and over.

No, they're not. Sure there are lots of hams who are senior citizens
but there are also a lot who aren't - and who use Morse Code on the
air.

Plus the whole US population is getting older. People are living
longer and having fewer kids, for one thing. The median age for US
residents back in 2000 was 39 years and some months (according to the
Census Bureau). And it keeps increasing.

One foot in the proverbial grave.

How old are *yiu*? I'm 54, been a ham 41 years.

What led me to my theory is that the FCC didn't just drop the Morse
Code tests, they simplified and reduced all the testing as well as the
administrative procedures. For almost 30 years, every change was in
the direction of making less work for FCC, to save resources.

This past Field Day, for example, the group I went with had one
Morse Code station and three voice stations, all similarly equipped.
There were three Morse Code operators and far more voice ops, yet the
Morse Code station made more QSOs than all the voice stations
combined. This wasn't a surprise, either.

You don't really call those guys with the computers and keyboards
who ruin the CW bands on contest weekends CW ops do you ???

Why not? All the computer does is keep the log and maybe call CQ. The
'phone stations had the same computer logging system, all networked to
a central server. Yet the CW ops outdid them easily.

As for "ruining the CW bands" - the only "CW bands" in Part 97 are the
bottom 100 kHz of 6 and 2 meters. All the other bands where CW is
allowed share the space with other modes, such as RTTY and PSK31.

It's just beautiful when the bands are full of hams making QSOs. Not
"ruined" at all.

73 de Jim, N2EY