01 tube as RF amp..
 

Anyone really, really old dudes on hear who can advise
on how much RF power an 01 can handle? Can it drive
a 45 power stage?

Pete

01 tube as RF amp..
 

Tio Pedro wrote:
Anyone really, really old dudes on hear who can advise
on how much RF power an 01 can handle? Can it drive
a 45 power stage?

Pete


I have various old tube manuals in print and on disk.
None of them seem to list the maximum ratings for the 01A.
Maximum plate voltage seems to be 135 volts and max plate current
seems to be 3-5 ma. No mention of plate dissipation, but I think
that the plate voltage/current limitations will be the factor
here. I think the type '171 ('71A) which was used as an output stage in
old radios would make a better tube for this purpose. It can handle
up to 180 volts and at least 20ma of plate current. Again no plate
dissipation rating given. Also consider the type 12A, which is
a 'heavier' 01A rated to 180 volts and maybe 10ma of plate current.

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"Tio Pedro" wrote in message
...
Anyone really, really old dudes on hear who can advise
on how much RF power an 01 can handle? Can it drive
a 45 power stage?

Pete

No. I don't have technical references as Ken does, but from
practical experience (hope I'm not disclosing my age here),
but the 01A is much better suited as a receiver RF stage, or
a one tube "regenerative" set.......... or maybe an audio amp
driving headphones.

If you're bound and determined to use these old bottles, a
better choice (I think) would be a 45 oscillator driving another
45 amplifier stage.

I've tried using 01A's in transmitter duty, but usually ended up
noticing a bright flash and then no more glow at all!....SOB

A 45 by itself as a one tube, crystal controlled transmitter isn't
too bad either. An FCC monitoring station somewhere in
Nebraska (If I recall correctly) objected to my 45's key clicks,
however. (And I was running an honest 3 watts on 40 in
Washington State.

Old Chief Lynn

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"Lynn" wrote in message
...

If you're bound and determined to use these old bottles, a
better choice (I think) would be a 45 oscillator driving another
45 amplifier stage.

I've tried using 01A's in transmitter duty, but usually ended up
noticing a bright flash and then no more glow at all!....SOB

A 45 by itself as a one tube, crystal controlled transmitter isn't
too bad either. An FCC monitoring station somewhere in
Nebraska (If I recall correctly) objected to my 45's key clicks,
however. (And I was running an honest 3 watts on 40 in
Washington State.

Old Chief Lynn

If I had the money, I'd be using 10s, 801s or one of the
bottles that are so coveted by the audio guys these days..
I saw a few 01 xtal oscillators in early QSTs, but very
little information was given about them. Globe 45 tube
are extremely pricey too, unfortunately. I have a few
45 globes in the stash..

Pete

01 tube as RF amp..
 

On Dec 29, 1:21 pm, "Tio Pedro" wrote:
Anyone really, really old dudes on hear who can advise
on how much RF power an 01 can handle? Can it drive
a 45 power stage?

Pete

Hey OM
How old is a really really old dude? Is that like Methuselah?
Although Ima really old fart. I think there would be to much gas in
that tube for you to use it for anything but a gas regulator tube. I
bet it would fire up at 150 VDC wit that nice blueish glow.

73 OM
n8zu

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"raypsi" wrote in message
...

Hey OM
How old is a really really old dude? Is that like Methuselah?
Although Ima really old fart. I think there would be to much gas in
that tube for you to use it for anything but a gas regulator tube. I
bet it would fire up at 150 VDC wit that nice blueish glow.

73 OM
n8zu

Old, crotchity, and ill temptered!! Ha ha.. Definitely in the Old
Fart catagory. QST did show some circuits using the 01s in
xtal oscillators, so I know it was done.Whether it worked worth
a darn, who knows! I suffer from too much gas, but I've never
glowed like a Smurf.

Pete

01 tube as RF amp..
 

raypsi wrote:
On Dec 29, 1:21 pm, "Tio Pedro" wrote:
Anyone really, really old dudes on hear who can advise
on how much RF power an 01 can handle? Can it drive
a 45 power stage?

Pete

Hey OM
How old is a really really old dude? Is that like Methuselah?
Although Ima really old fart. I think there would be to much gas in
that tube for you to use it for anything but a gas regulator tube. I
bet it would fire up at 150 VDC wit that nice blueish glow.

73 OM
n8zu
The 01A was considered a 'hard vacuum' tube, the '00 was a 'vapor' tube,
or soft vacuum tube. The only reason that the '00 was even made was
because many 'old timers' (at the time that the '00 came out) remembered
using the ORIGINAL DeForest Audio which was a soft vacuum tube. By
carefully adjusting the plate and filament voltages a very sensitive
operating point could be found. The tube was probably acting as a
thyratron at this point, on the verge of super-conduction. The '00
could also operate this way, but since it's manufacture was more
controlled than the original Audion the operating point was well known.

Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?

01 tube as RF amp..
 

Tio Pedro wrote:
"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?


I'm sure it will drive a neutralized 245 to provide some gain.
You might not get enough drive for full power output from the 245.
(even if the 245 was run in class A, which requires NO driving power
you would still see SOME power gain).

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"Tio Pedro" wrote in message
...

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I doubt it very seriously. I suppose if perfection was achieved in matching
the 01's output to the 245's grid was possible (I, for one cannot do it),
the losses would be enough to tickle it into the beginning of class C.

Ken's idea of going to class A might work, but the 245 would be running
in a very inefficient mode. There is one website showing a couple of
45's running in AB2 (how do you make a sub 2?) . Another website
has some interesting stuff with 245 chatter...... (you may have already
seen it, but just in case..........

http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/29amp.htm

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ and a couple commercials

01 tube as RF amp..
 

Lynn wrote:



Ken's idea of going to class A might work, but the 245 would be running
in a very inefficient mode.


I can't fathom a 20s xmtr circuit running the PA in Class A.

-ex

01 tube as RF amp..
 

Lynn wrote:

"Tio Pedro" wrote in message
...

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter'
as later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It
was used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely
available, but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I doubt it very seriously. I suppose if perfection was achieved in matching
the 01's output to the 245's grid was possible (I, for one cannot do it),
the losses would be enough to tickle it into the beginning of class C.

Ken's idea of going to class A might work, but the 245 would be running
in a very inefficient mode. There is one website showing a couple of
45's running in AB2 (how do you make a sub 2?) . Another website
has some interesting stuff with 245 chatter...... (you may have already
seen it, but just in case..........

http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/29amp.htm

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ and a couple commercials
Actually AB1 would be better. My point was that you don't need driving
power until you start drawing grid current. As long as the final
doesn't draw grid current you are not loading down the oscillator tube.
The question was would the 01A be able to drive a '45. My answer is
yes, but probably not to full output....meaning you won't be able to
supply much grid current.

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Lynn wrote:

"Tio Pedro" wrote in message
...

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter'
as later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It
was used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely
available, but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I doubt it very seriously. I suppose if perfection was achieved in
matching
the 01's output to the 245's grid was possible (I, for one cannot do it),
the losses would be enough to tickle it into the beginning of class C.

Ken's idea of going to class A might work, but the 245 would be running
in a very inefficient mode. There is one website showing a couple of
45's running in AB2 (how do you make a sub 2?) . Another website
has some interesting stuff with 245 chatter...... (you may have already
seen it, but just in case..........

http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/29amp.htm

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ and a couple commercials
Actually AB1 would be better. My point was that you don't need driving
power until you start drawing grid current. As long as the final doesn't
draw grid current you are not loading down the oscillator tube.
The question was would the 01A be able to drive a '45. My answer is yes,
but probably not to full output....meaning you won't be able to supply
much grid current

Yor're correct (as qualified, and as usual)
But the 01A is NOT a suitable (satisfactory?) driver
for a 45.

Happy New Year! (Will I see any of you on "Straight Key Night?(

Old Chief Lynn

01 tube as RF amp..
 

Lynn wrote:

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Lynn wrote:

"Tio Pedro" wrote in message
...

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a
'getter' as later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts
or so. It was used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube
became widely available, but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I doubt it very seriously. I suppose if perfection was achieved in
matching
the 01's output to the 245's grid was possible (I, for one cannot do
it),
the losses would be enough to tickle it into the beginning of class C.

Ken's idea of going to class A might work, but the 245 would be running
in a very inefficient mode. There is one website showing a couple of
45's running in AB2 (how do you make a sub 2?) . Another website
has some interesting stuff with 245 chatter...... (you may have already
seen it, but just in case..........

http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/29amp.htm

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ and a couple commercials
Actually AB1 would be better. My point was that you don't need
driving power until you start drawing grid current. As long as the
final doesn't draw grid current you are not loading down the
oscillator tube.
The question was would the 01A be able to drive a '45. My answer is
yes, but probably not to full output....meaning you won't be able to
supply much grid current

Yor're correct (as qualified, and as usual)
But the 01A is NOT a suitable (satisfactory?) driver
for a 45.

Happy New Year! (Will I see any of you on "Straight Key Night?(

Old Chief Lynn
Well the original question was would it work, and the answer is yes, but
not very well.

If you want to use tubes from the same era, then I'd pick a '27 for the
oscillator. The 27 is probably the first tube in a chain of evolution
that led up to the 1626 which was used for the same purpose in the ARC-5
transmitters. (though the 1625 is a heck of a lot easier to drive than
a '45!).

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Lynn wrote:

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Lynn wrote:

"Tio Pedro" wrote in message
...

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter'
as later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It
was used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely
available, but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I doubt it very seriously. I suppose if perfection was achieved in
matching
the 01's output to the 245's grid was possible (I, for one cannot do
it),
the losses would be enough to tickle it into the beginning of class C.

Ken's idea of going to class A might work, but the 245 would be running
in a very inefficient mode. There is one website showing a couple of
45's running in AB2 (how do you make a sub 2?) . Another website
has some interesting stuff with 245 chatter...... (you may have already
seen it, but just in case..........

http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/29amp.htm

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ and a couple commercials
Actually AB1 would be better. My point was that you don't need driving
power until you start drawing grid current. As long as the final
doesn't draw grid current you are not loading down the oscillator tube.
The question was would the 01A be able to drive a '45. My answer is
yes, but probably not to full output....meaning you won't be able to
supply much grid current

Yor're correct (as qualified, and as usual)
But the 01A is NOT a suitable (satisfactory?) driver
for a 45.

Happy New Year! (Will I see any of you on "Straight Key Night?(

Old Chief Lynn
Well the original question was would it work, and the answer is yes, but
not very well.

If you want to use tubes from the same era, then I'd pick a '27 for the
oscillator. The 27 is probably the first tube in a chain of evolution
that led up to the 1626 which was used for the same purpose in the ARC-5
transmitters. (though the 1625 is a heck of a lot easier to drive than a
'45!).


Right again, Ken. Those ARC-5's were sure a lot of fun when new ones
were $5 a crack! Used one for VFO on a BC-375 when the'375 was
$45, new, complete with all tuning units, dynamotor, antenna tuner,
antenna switch with RF ammeter, etc! Glory days of radio. If one didn't
mind a little "yoooooop de yoooop yoooop" on CW, the 211 in the
'375 in MOPA mode made a nice oscillator tube as well!

Old Chief Lynn

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"ken scharf" wrote in message If you
want to use tubes from the same era, then I'd pick a '27 for the
oscillator. The 27 is probably the first tube in a chain of evolution
that led up to the 1626 which was used for the same purpose in the ARC-5
transmitters. (though the 1625 is a heck of a lot easier to drive than a
'45!).


I agree Ken. A lot of the early 30s rigs used a tetrode driving a 45.
I'll have to dig deeper. (Looking for retirement projects!)
I saw a neat design using a pair of 30s to drive a P-P pair of 33s in
one battery TX QST ran in 32 or so.

Pete

01 tube as RF amp..
 

On Dec 30, 2:54*pm, ken scharf wrote:
Tio Pedro wrote:
"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
* Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. *It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.

Will it have enough output to drive a 245?

I'm sure it will drive a neutralized 245 to provide some gain.
You might not get enough drive for full power output from the 245.
(even if the 245 was run in class A, which requires NO driving power
you would still see SOME power gain).

Hmmmm...You think class A at RF requires no driving power??

Cheers,
Tom

01 tube as RF amp..
 

K7ITM wrote:
On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, ken scharf wrote:
Tio Pedro wrote:
"ken scharf" wrote in message
...
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.
Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I'm sure it will drive a neutralized 245 to provide some gain.
You might not get enough drive for full power output from the 245.
(even if the 245 was run in class A, which requires NO driving power
you would still see SOME power gain).

Hmmmm...You think class A at RF requires no driving power??

Cheers,
Tom
Only voltage, no current.
Of course some power gets wasted since resistance isn't zero and some
heat is generated in the coils, etc. I guess there is some power factor
in the grid / cathode capacitance etc. The input impedance of the '45
in class A SHOULD BE infinite. It isn't, but it IS VERY HIGH. So
except for losses, no driving power, only voltage.

01 tube as RF amp..
 

Tio Pedro wrote:
"ken scharf" wrote in message If you
want to use tubes from the same era, then I'd pick a '27 for the
oscillator. The 27 is probably the first tube in a chain of evolution
that led up to the 1626 which was used for the same purpose in the ARC-5
transmitters. (though the 1625 is a heck of a lot easier to drive than a
'45!).


I agree Ken. A lot of the early 30s rigs used a tetrode driving a 45.
I'll have to dig deeper. (Looking for retirement projects!)
I saw a neat design using a pair of 30s to drive a P-P pair of 33s in
one battery TX QST ran in 32 or so.

Pete


The 27 is an indirectly heated triode.
Except for the Kellog tube, it was the first one ever made.
(not talking prototypes though).

The 24A is a tetrode. Than might make a nice xtal oscillator to drive
the '45.

01 tube as RF amp..
 

On Dec 31 2008, 7:16*pm, ken scharf
wrote:
K7ITM wrote:
On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, ken scharf wrote:
Tio Pedro wrote:
"ken scharf" wrote in message
. ..
* Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. *It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.
Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I'm sure it will drive a neutralized 245 to provide some gain.
You might not get enough drive for full power output from the 245.
(even if the 245 was run in class A, which requires NO driving power
you would still see SOME power gain).

Hmmmm...You think class A at RF requires no driving power??

Cheers,
Tom

Only voltage, no current.
Of course some power gets wasted since resistance isn't zero and some
heat is generated in the coils, etc. *I guess there is some power factor
in the grid / cathode capacitance etc. *The input impedance of the '45
in class A SHOULD BE infinite. *It isn't, but it IS VERY HIGH. *So
except for losses, no driving power, only voltage.

OK, to get an _accurate_ answer with respect to grid driving power,
you need to account for the effects of the electrons going from
cathode to plate as they pass by the grid. At high enough frequency,
this becomes significant. This is quite apart from losses in elements
external to the tube. One reference about this is Terman's "Radio
Engineers' Handbook, section 4, paragraph 9. But just consider that
it takes a certain amount of _energy_ to push those electrons around
and control them, even if they don't actually ever come in contact
with the grid.

Cheers,
Tom

01 tube as RF amp..
 

On Jan 1, 1:29 pm, K7ITM wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 7:16 pm, ken scharf
wrote:



K7ITM wrote:
On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, ken scharf wrote:
Tio Pedro wrote:
"ken scharf" wrote in message
. ..
Even with it's 'hard vacuum' the 01 didn't have as good a 'getter' as
later tubes and would arc over with more than 130 volts or so. It was
used as a transmitter before the type 202 tube became widely available,
but was a QRP thing, less than a watt input.
Will it have enough output to drive a 245?
I'm sure it will drive a neutralized 245 to provide some gain.
You might not get enough drive for full power output from the 245.
(even if the 245 was run in class A, which requires NO driving power
you would still see SOME power gain).

Hmmmm...You think class A at RF requires no driving power??

Cheers,
Tom

Only voltage, no current.
Of course some power gets wasted since resistance isn't zero and some
heat is generated in the coils, etc. I guess there is some power factor
in the grid / cathode capacitance etc. The input impedance of the '45
in class A SHOULD BE infinite. It isn't, but it IS VERY HIGH. So
except for losses, no driving power, only voltage.

OK, to get an _accurate_ answer with respect to grid driving power,
you need to account for the effects of the electrons going from
cathode to plate as they pass by the grid. At high enough frequency,
this becomes significant. This is quite apart from losses in elements
external to the tube. One reference about this is Terman's "Radio
Engineers' Handbook, section 4, paragraph 9. But just consider that
it takes a certain amount of _energy_ to push those electrons around
and control them, even if they don't actually ever come in contact
with the grid.

Cheers,
Tom

Hey OM
I guess it's so ez to forget about the law. The law of conservation of
energy.
You can't create or destroy energy. Physics 101.

73 OM
n8zu

01 tube as RF amp..
 

I've noticed a lot of the early designs from the late 20s
and early 30s used cathode bias (resistors to B- off the
directly heated filaments) on triode RF power
amplifiers. Were they adding a small amount of
bias to make them easier to drive? Or, for what reason?

One other thing, I don't remember seeing parasitic
suppressors on early rigs; did the need become
evident when TV became popular in the late
40s? I know those early TXs could take off in
the nether regions :)

Pete

01 tube as RF amp..
 

Tio Pedro wrote:
I've noticed a lot of the early designs from the late 20s
and early 30s used cathode bias (resistors to B- off the
directly heated filaments) on triode RF power
amplifiers. Were they adding a small amount of
bias to make them easier to drive? Or, for what reason?

One other thing, I don't remember seeing parasitic
suppressors on early rigs; did the need become
evident when TV became popular in the late
40s? I know those early TXs could take off in
the nether regions :)

Pete


Cathode bias resistors on rf power amps were a safety measure.
If the tube lost drive with no bias it could draw enough plate current
to MELT the plate, especially if run with a high voltage near (or OVER!)
the maximum ratings. Of course, using a C- supply would serve the
same purpose. Many rigs actually used batteries. Since the grid
current flowed in the reverse direction from the battery, a C battery
would actually be RECHARGED in normal use, so they tended to last a long
time.

Parasitic suppressors were not used in the early days since no one was
on the vhf frequencies there wasn't anybody to interfere with!

Actually, parasitic oscillation might show up in other ways making the
amplifier hard to load, and if detected this way the builder would take
steps to stabilize the circuit.

01 tube as RF amp..
 

"ken scharf" wrote in message
...

Cathode bias resistors on rf power amps were a safety measure.
If the tube lost drive with no bias it could draw enough plate current to
MELT the plate, especially if run with a high voltage near (or OVER!) the
maximum ratings. Of course, using a C- supply would serve the
same purpose. Many rigs actually used batteries. Since the grid current
flowed in the reverse direction from the battery, a C battery would
actually be RECHARGED in normal use, so they tended to last a long time.

Parasitic suppressors were not used in the early days since no one was on
the vhf frequencies there wasn't anybody to interfere with!

Actually, parasitic oscillation might show up in other ways making the
amplifier hard to load, and if detected this way the builder would take
steps to stabilize the circuit.


The reason I asked this that Bill (Exray) ran
into some problems with his early TX project.
The old neon lamp trick showed
the presence of VHF parasitics, and adding suppressors
improved a few of the problems he was having.

We were discussing the use of cathode bias resistors, and
I couldn't quite grasp the reason for using them, but
tube protection makes sense.

Pete