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best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100 to500 miles?
On Jul 28, 3:54*pm, Ian Jackson
wrote: In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson writesIan Jackson wrote: Agreed. Unless there are any hills in the way, legal 27MHz CB should get you a reliable 5 to 10 miles and, in the USA, I believe is a lot more popular than elsewhere, and you could well be within range of other CB users. From what I have read it is very popular in the EU which has far less limitations on what you can do with it. There seems to be no practical limitation on equipment and power, I often see articles about people using 100 watt ham rigs, transmitting FM and packet data. Not legally! In the UK, CB is limited to 4W of FM. Most other European countries are very similar, although some do also allow SSB (and maybe even AM?). However, that's almost irrelevant, a 5 watt rig, even a 1970' handheld with channels 9,14 and 19 will do, a 40 channel ssb rig would almost be too much. A handheld on a whip antenna might get you 20 miles but, more likely, 2. To keep it almost on topic, if you were to buy a long whip antenna, fold it over, (run it horizontaly), and connect it to an autotuner, you could use it for CB and NVIS ham communication. NVIS is an interesting mode of communication, it uses vertical skywaves to get wider range local communication from HF radio. I don't think that you get much NVIS on the higher HF amateur bands. However, you certainly do on 80m, where (at least in the UK) most horizontal antennas are rarely much higher than 30' or 40'. The RF goes straight up, and (if there's anything up there to reflect it back) straight down again. In summer daytime, the RF tends to get absorbed by the low-level D-layer (rather than reflected), so ranges are short, and signal levels poor. This disperses at night, and the much-higher F-layer allows a longer-range 'bounce' - even for signals with high-angle radiation. Most really long distance stuff is via vertical antennas, which are notoriously poor for relatively short-distance working (beyond groundwave range). However, above around 5 or 6MHz, high-angle signals tend to go straight through the ionosphere, and are lost for ever. It may all be a moot point anyway. If you join a club they will probably tell you what equipment you need. They probably standardized on something readily available without a license such as CB's, FRS or GMRS, or possibly if they thought no one would notice VHF marine radios (which are illegal to use on land, but required for almost anything that floats). I don't want to be a 'misery-guts', but I would be a bit circumspect about the idea of 'getting into amateur radio' because you want to be able talk to the folks back home when you are on holiday. If you have no previous experience of the characteristics of the amateur bands, equipment, antennas etc, it's highly unlikely that you will be very successful. To avoid disappointment, it might be best to stick to tried-and-tested technology. On the other hand, why not simply forget about the folks at home, enjoy your holiday, and take up amateur radio when you get back! -- Ian Is it just me or is there ALWAYS someone on this group explaining why somebody else should not try something or do something? How on earth is anyone supposed to learn anything if they only do what they have knowledge and experience in? This is what college does to people, makes them extremely wary of learning things on their own or seeing other people attempt to do so. |
best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100to500 miles?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:48:40 -0700, wrote:
On Jul 28, 3:54Â*pm, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson writesIan Jackson wrote: Agreed. Unless there are any hills in the way, legal 27MHz CB should get you a reliable 5 to 10 miles and, in the USA, I believe is a lot more popular than elsewhere, and you could well be within range of other CB users. From what I have read it is very popular in the EU which has far less limitations on what you can do with it. There seems to be no practical limitation on equipment and power, I often see articles about people using 100 watt ham rigs, transmitting FM and packet data. Not legally! In the UK, CB is limited to 4W of FM. Most other European countries are very similar, although some do also allow SSB (and maybe even AM?). However, that's almost irrelevant, a 5 watt rig, even a 1970' handheld with channels 9,14 and 19 will do, a 40 channel ssb rig would almost be too much. A handheld on a whip antenna might get you 20 miles but, more likely, 2. To keep it almost on topic, if you were to buy a long whip antenna, fold it over, (run it horizontaly), and connect it to an autotuner, you could use it for CB and NVIS ham communication. NVIS is an interesting mode of communication, it uses vertical skywaves to get wider range local communication from HF radio. I don't think that you get much NVIS on the higher HF amateur bands. However, you certainly do on 80m, where (at least in the UK) most horizontal antennas are rarely much higher than 30' or 40'. The RF goes straight up, and (if there's anything up there to reflect it back) straight down again. In summer daytime, the RF tends to get absorbed by the low-level D-layer (rather than reflected), so ranges are short, and signal levels poor. This disperses at night, and the much-higher F-layer allows a longer-range 'bounce' - even for signals with high-angle radiation. Most really long distance stuff is via vertical antennas, which are notoriously poor for relatively short-distance working (beyond groundwave range). However, above around 5 or 6MHz, high-angle signals tend to go straight through the ionosphere, and are lost for ever. It may all be a moot point anyway. If you join a club they will probably tell you what equipment you need. They probably standardized on something readily available without a license such as CB's, FRS or GMRS, or possibly if they thought no one would notice VHF marine radios (which are illegal to use on land, but required for almost anything that floats). I don't want to be a 'misery-guts', but I would be a bit circumspect about the idea of 'getting into amateur radio' because you want to be able talk to the folks back home when you are on holiday. If you have no previous experience of the characteristics of the amateur bands, equipment, antennas etc, it's highly unlikely that you will be very successful. To avoid disappointment, it might be best to stick to tried-and-tested technology. On the other hand, why not simply forget about the folks at home, enjoy your holiday, and take up amateur radio when you get back! -- Ian Is it just me or is there ALWAYS someone on this group explaining why somebody else should not try something or do something? How on earth is anyone supposed to learn anything if they only do what they have knowledge and experience in? This is what college does to people, makes them extremely wary of learning things on their own or seeing other people attempt to do so. So you're explaining why I shouldn't go to college? Hey, thanks! :-) -- www.wescottdesign.com |
best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100 to 500 miles?
In message , Tim Wescott
writes On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:48:40 -0700, wrote: On Jul 28, 3:54*pm, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson writesIan Jackson wrote: Agreed. Unless there are any hills in the way, legal 27MHz CB should get you a reliable 5 to 10 miles and, in the USA, I believe is a lot more popular than elsewhere, and you could well be within range of other CB users. From what I have read it is very popular in the EU which has far less limitations on what you can do with it. There seems to be no practical limitation on equipment and power, I often see articles about people using 100 watt ham rigs, transmitting FM and packet data. Not legally! In the UK, CB is limited to 4W of FM. Most other European countries are very similar, although some do also allow SSB (and maybe even AM?). However, that's almost irrelevant, a 5 watt rig, even a 1970' handheld with channels 9,14 and 19 will do, a 40 channel ssb rig would almost be too much. A handheld on a whip antenna might get you 20 miles but, more likely, 2. To keep it almost on topic, if you were to buy a long whip antenna, fold it over, (run it horizontaly), and connect it to an autotuner, you could use it for CB and NVIS ham communication. NVIS is an interesting mode of communication, it uses vertical skywaves to get wider range local communication from HF radio. I don't think that you get much NVIS on the higher HF amateur bands. However, you certainly do on 80m, where (at least in the UK) most horizontal antennas are rarely much higher than 30' or 40'. The RF goes straight up, and (if there's anything up there to reflect it back) straight down again. In summer daytime, the RF tends to get absorbed by the low-level D-layer (rather than reflected), so ranges are short, and signal levels poor. This disperses at night, and the much-higher F-layer allows a longer-range 'bounce' - even for signals with high-angle radiation. Most really long distance stuff is via vertical antennas, which are notoriously poor for relatively short-distance working (beyond groundwave range). However, above around 5 or 6MHz, high-angle signals tend to go straight through the ionosphere, and are lost for ever. It may all be a moot point anyway. If you join a club they will probably tell you what equipment you need. They probably standardized on something readily available without a license such as CB's, FRS or GMRS, or possibly if they thought no one would notice VHF marine radios (which are illegal to use on land, but required for almost anything that floats). I don't want to be a 'misery-guts', but I would be a bit circumspect about the idea of 'getting into amateur radio' because you want to be able talk to the folks back home when you are on holiday. If you have no previous experience of the characteristics of the amateur bands, equipment, antennas etc, it's highly unlikely that you will be very successful. To avoid disappointment, it might be best to stick to tried-and-tested technology. On the other hand, why not simply forget about the folks at home, enjoy your holiday, and take up amateur radio when you get back! -- Ian Is it just me or is there ALWAYS someone on this group explaining why somebody else should not try something or do something? How on earth is anyone supposed to learn anything if they only do what they have knowledge and experience in? This is what college does to people, makes them extremely wary of learning things on their own or seeing other people attempt to do so. So you're explaining why I shouldn't go to college? Hey, thanks! I think that the OP is misinterpreting my comments! Trying to keep regular communication via HF radio - and especially HF amateur radio - can be very disappointing, especially at times like now, when there are virtually no sunspots to help propagation go with 'a bit of a zing' (sorry if I'm being too technical!). It is indeed great fun to try and keep regular communication schedules, but I wouldn't take up amateur radio just to be able to talk to family and friends while on holiday - especially if you are going to set out on your holiday before you have had time to gain some experience about which bands (and which frequencies in the bands) to use, which times of day are best, which type of antenna you need to use etc. There's a bit more to amateur radio than buying an off-the-shelf 100W multiband transceiver and an antenna (or antennas), connecting everything together, powering up and pressing the mic PTT button. But I'm sure the OP is already fully aware of this. I'm just a bit concerned that his planned debut into amateur radio might prove a little disappointing, and deter him from progressing further in the noble art. I'm certainly not trying to dissuade him. -- Ian |
best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100to 500 miles?
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best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100to500 miles?
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:24:54 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Tim Wescott writes On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:48:40 -0700, wrote: On Jul 28, 3:54Â*pm, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson writesIan Jackson wrote: Agreed. Unless there are any hills in the way, legal 27MHz CB should get you a reliable 5 to 10 miles and, in the USA, I believe is a lot more popular than elsewhere, and you could well be within range of other CB users. From what I have read it is very popular in the EU which has far less limitations on what you can do with it. There seems to be no practical limitation on equipment and power, I often see articles about people using 100 watt ham rigs, transmitting FM and packet data. Not legally! In the UK, CB is limited to 4W of FM. Most other European countries are very similar, although some do also allow SSB (and maybe even AM?). However, that's almost irrelevant, a 5 watt rig, even a 1970' handheld with channels 9,14 and 19 will do, a 40 channel ssb rig would almost be too much. A handheld on a whip antenna might get you 20 miles but, more likely, 2. To keep it almost on topic, if you were to buy a long whip antenna, fold it over, (run it horizontaly), and connect it to an autotuner, you could use it for CB and NVIS ham communication. NVIS is an interesting mode of communication, it uses vertical skywaves to get wider range local communication from HF radio. I don't think that you get much NVIS on the higher HF amateur bands. However, you certainly do on 80m, where (at least in the UK) most horizontal antennas are rarely much higher than 30' or 40'. The RF goes straight up, and (if there's anything up there to reflect it back) straight down again. In summer daytime, the RF tends to get absorbed by the low-level D-layer (rather than reflected), so ranges are short, and signal levels poor. This disperses at night, and the much-higher F-layer allows a longer-range 'bounce' - even for signals with high-angle radiation. Most really long distance stuff is via vertical antennas, which are notoriously poor for relatively short-distance working (beyond groundwave range). However, above around 5 or 6MHz, high-angle signals tend to go straight through the ionosphere, and are lost for ever. It may all be a moot point anyway. If you join a club they will probably tell you what equipment you need. They probably standardized on something readily available without a license such as CB's, FRS or GMRS, or possibly if they thought no one would notice VHF marine radios (which are illegal to use on land, but required for almost anything that floats). I don't want to be a 'misery-guts', but I would be a bit circumspect about the idea of 'getting into amateur radio' because you want to be able talk to the folks back home when you are on holiday. If you have no previous experience of the characteristics of the amateur bands, equipment, antennas etc, it's highly unlikely that you will be very successful. To avoid disappointment, it might be best to stick to tried-and-tested technology. On the other hand, why not simply forget about the folks at home, enjoy your holiday, and take up amateur radio when you get back! -- Ian Is it just me or is there ALWAYS someone on this group explaining why somebody else should not try something or do something? How on earth is anyone supposed to learn anything if they only do what they have knowledge and experience in? This is what college does to people, makes them extremely wary of learning things on their own or seeing other people attempt to do so. So you're explaining why I shouldn't go to college? Hey, thanks! I think that the OP is misinterpreting my comments! Trying to keep regular communication via HF radio - and especially HF amateur radio - can be very disappointing, especially at times like now, when there are virtually no sunspots to help propagation go with 'a bit of a zing' (sorry if I'm being too technical!). It is indeed great fun to try and keep regular communication schedules, but I wouldn't take up amateur radio just to be able to talk to family and friends while on holiday - especially if you are going to set out on your holiday before you have had time to gain some experience about which bands (and which frequencies in the bands) to use, which times of day are best, which type of antenna you need to use etc. There's a bit more to amateur radio than buying an off-the-shelf 100W multiband transceiver and an antenna (or antennas), connecting everything together, powering up and pressing the mic PTT button. But I'm sure the OP is already fully aware of this. I'm just a bit concerned that his planned debut into amateur radio might prove a little disappointing, and deter him from progressing further in the noble art. I'm certainly not trying to dissuade him. Nah, he already said he's just using the "talk to home" thing as an excuse to get him going, and he's already agreed to jettison it and get into ham radio anyway (Good for you 'acannell'!). And while there's more to it than connecting the bits together and pushing the PTT, that's a good start. (OP: Getting into a club is best; if you can't do that then at least get a copy of the ARRL Operations Manual and read it before you go stomping all over the airwaves. You'll have "newbie" written all over you no matter what -- you want to aim for it to be "polite newbie" so people will be nice.) (And expect it to be a bit like newsgroups -- there are some read losers out there and a few of them have call signs and HF rigs. Like any other human activity there will be some hazing to politely ignore.) -- www.wescottdesign.com |
best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100 to500 miles?
On Jul 29, 12:24*am, Ian Jackson
wrote: In message , Tim Wescott writes On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:48:40 -0700, wrote: On Jul 28, 3:54*pm, Ian Jackson wrote: In message , Geoffrey S. Mendelson writesIan Jackson wrote: Agreed. Unless there are any hills in the way, legal 27MHz CB should get you a reliable 5 to 10 miles and, in the USA, I believe is a lot more popular than elsewhere, and you could well be within range of other CB users. From what I have read it is very popular in the EU which has far less limitations on what you can do with it. There seems to be no practical limitation on equipment and power, I often see articles about people using 100 watt ham rigs, transmitting FM and packet data. Not legally! In the UK, CB is limited to 4W of FM. Most other European countries are very similar, although some do also allow SSB (and maybe even AM?). However, that's almost irrelevant, a 5 watt rig, even a 1970' handheld with channels 9,14 and 19 will do, a 40 channel ssb rig would almost be too much. A handheld on a whip antenna might get you 20 miles but, more likely, 2. To keep it almost on topic, if you were to buy a long whip antenna, fold it over, (run it horizontaly), and connect it to an autotuner, you could use it for CB and NVIS ham communication. NVIS is an interesting mode of communication, it uses vertical skywaves to get wider range local communication from HF radio. I don't think that you get much NVIS on the higher HF amateur bands. However, you certainly do on 80m, where (at least in the UK) most horizontal antennas are rarely much higher than 30' or 40'. The RF goes straight up, and (if there's anything up there to reflect it back) straight down again. In summer daytime, the RF tends to get absorbed by the low-level D-layer (rather than reflected), so ranges are short, and signal levels poor. This disperses at night, and the much-higher F-layer allows a longer-range 'bounce' - even for signals with high-angle radiation. Most really long distance stuff is via vertical antennas, which are notoriously poor for relatively short-distance working (beyond groundwave range). However, above around 5 or 6MHz, high-angle signals tend to go straight through the ionosphere, and are lost for ever. It may all be a moot point anyway. If you join a club they will probably tell you what equipment you need. They probably standardized on something readily available without a license such as CB's, FRS or GMRS, or possibly if they thought no one would notice VHF marine radios (which are illegal to use on land, but required for almost anything that floats). I don't want to be a 'misery-guts', but I would be a bit circumspect about the idea of 'getting into amateur radio' because you want to be able talk to the folks back home when you are on holiday. If you have no previous experience of the characteristics of the amateur bands, equipment, antennas etc, it's highly unlikely that you will be very successful. To avoid disappointment, it might be best to stick to tried-and-tested technology. On the other hand, why not simply forget about the folks at home, enjoy your holiday, and take up amateur radio when you get back! -- Ian Is it just me or is there ALWAYS someone on this group explaining why somebody else should not try something or do something? How on earth is anyone supposed to learn anything if they only do what they have knowledge and experience in? This is what college does to people, makes them extremely wary of learning things on their own or seeing other people attempt to do so. So you're explaining why I shouldn't go to college? Hey, thanks! I think that the OP is misinterpreting my comments! Trying to keep regular communication via HF radio - and especially HF amateur radio - can be very disappointing, especially at times like now, when there are virtually no sunspots to help propagation go with 'a bit of a zing' (sorry if I'm being too technical!). It is indeed great fun to try and keep regular communication schedules, but I wouldn't take up amateur radio just to be able to talk to family and friends while on holiday - especially if you are going to set out on your holiday before you have had time to gain some experience about which bands (and which frequencies in the bands) to use, which times of day are best, which type of antenna you need to use etc. There's a bit more to amateur radio than buying an off-the-shelf 100W multiband transceiver and an antenna (or antennas), connecting everything together, powering up and pressing the mic PTT button. But I'm sure the OP is already fully aware of this. I'm just a bit concerned that his planned debut into amateur radio might prove a little disappointing, and deter him from progressing further in the noble art. I'm certainly not trying to dissuade him. -- Ian- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ahhh...I see now. Understood! ;) |
best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100 to 500 miles?
wrote in message news:784e660a-1708-4bc1-bc3c- Is it just me or is there ALWAYS someone on this group explaining why somebody else should not try something or do something? How on earth is anyone supposed to learn anything if they only do what they have knowledge and experience in? This is what college does to people, makes them extremely wary of learning things on their own or seeing other people attempt to do so. It may have been the way you asked the question. If you had just asked what would be a good way of getting into ham radio and what would it take to talk around 100 to 200 miles for fun the response may have been differant. Your first statements made it seem like you wanted reliable communications for emergencies. Anyway get a license and have fun. That seems to be your main objective. If you have not checked into it, the license should be easy for someone that has an electronic background and any RF experiance at all. Just memorize the exect questions and answers. You can find them many places on the internet. You can go to arrl.org for one. Then go to qrz.com and take the practice test to see how well you are doing. You may even want to go there first and see how well you do without any perperation. Having been a ham for over 35 years and into electrical and electronic work, I can run through a test in less than 15 minuits and get around a 85% or higher. That is not even looking at the study questions in many years. I think a 70% is passing. |
best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100to 500 miles?
Ralph Mowery wrote:
If you have not checked into it, the license should be easy for someone that has an electronic background and any RF experiance at all. Just memorize the exect questions and answers. You can find them many places on the internet. You can go to arrl.org for one. Then go to qrz.com and take the practice test to see how well you are doing. You may even want to go there first and see how well you do without any perperation. Having been a ham for over 35 years and into electrical and electronic work, I can run through a test in less than 15 minuits and get around a 85% or higher. That is not even looking at the study questions in many years. I think a 70% is passing. Ralph, a lot has changed in the last 35 years. The tests are not designed to make sure that everyone who passes could build a transceiver from an old AM radio, or recognize the design of one. They are now based on the concept that many hams will start out with a store bought rig and work up from that. In order to pass, you have to show enough understanding of electricity, electronics and RF that you don't endanger yourself, anyone else or cause any damage to the equipment. You also have to show enough knowledge of ham bands and operating procedure that you don't endanger anyone else, though you possibly could get some people upset. BTW, have you taken the test recently, over the years it has included new things that hams did not have to know or care about. When I studied for the extra exam (1996)*, it included tv stuff such as fields and frames. Now that NTSC is dead, I wonder if it is still there and if it is, how long it will be. Geoff. * just to be compelete, I never had time to take the 20wpm test before I moved here, so I have an advanced class license. I live in one of the few countries in the world that the VEC's were asked NOT to give tests in. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM |
best setup for vehicle to base communication seperated by 100 to 500 miles?
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message ... Having been a ham for over 35 years and into electrical and electronic work, I can run through a test in less than 15 minuits and get around a 85% or higher. That is not even looking at the study questions in many years. I think a 70% is passing. Ralph, a lot has changed in the last 35 years. The tests are not designed to make sure that everyone who passes could build a transceiver from an old AM radio, or recognize the design of one. They are now based on the concept that many hams will start out with a store bought rig and work up from that. In order to pass, you have to show enough understanding of electricity, electronics and RF that you don't endanger yourself, anyone else or cause any damage to the equipment. You also have to show enough knowledge of ham bands and operating procedure that you don't endanger anyone else, though you possibly could get some people upset. BTW, have you taken the test recently, over the years it has included new things that hams did not have to know or care about. When I studied for the extra exam (1996)*, it included tv stuff such as fields and frames. Now that NTSC is dead, I wonder if it is still there and if it is, how long it will be. Geoff. * just to be compelete, I never had time to take the 20wpm test before I moved here, so I have an advanced class license. I live in one of the few countries in the world that the VEC's were asked NOT to give tests in. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM I have taken the practice tests on qrz.com several times just to see how well I can do. That is without doing any studying for them. Took it on qrz.com a few weeks ago after our club had a hamfest and gave some tests. Just wanted to refresh my memory of the questions. I am a VEC with the local club. Have been from the time I passed the Extra. Forgot the exect year, but it was about a year before the FCC totally eliminated the 20 wpm code. Have to admitt that if it was not a choice question test that I could not have done the 20 wpm. The test as it is now is made to get more hams on the air. I think it is good. Should probably be more on the rules and operating proceduers, sort of like a drivers license test. There are very few new hams that can work on the modern rigs. I can handle the older tube and transisitor rigs, but do not even try to look at the latest rigs. HOwever the test is a joke. Years ago my wife passed the the Technician test and I doubt she could plug in a rig and hook up the antenna.. Around 1972 I passed the first class phone test. Only 22 years old and had never seen a TV or comercial radio station transmitter, but that licened me to work on them. Never did get into the radio or tv field like I thought I would like to. Did not pay as much as the other jobs I had over the years. NTSC is dead for comercial use in the usa, but probably will be used in the ham bands for a long time. Just as RTTY is. I have an old modle 19 set for rtty and it is still working. Must be around 50 years old or more by now. You can probably count the number of comercial rtty stations still on the air with one hand now. Packet was hot for a few years, but I think it is almost gone except for a few DX clusters and the aprs system. I think there will be some hams on almost all modes that have been used. 73 de KU4PT |
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