Mylar cap ?
 

I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?
tnx
hank wd5jfr

"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message
...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called
for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they
bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing
the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?
tnx
hank wd5jfr

Hank -

Non–polarized polyester film (Mylar) capacitors are dipped in a hard epoxy
coating material
and provides excellent protection against moisture.
These type of capacitors are intended for general purpose DC applications.

NTE Capacitor selection guide
http://www.calcentron.com/PDF_Docume...capacitors.pdf

http://w1.859.telia.com/~u85920178/b...onen.htm#types

http://zeus.cedcc.psu.edu/caps/allcaps.html#glass

http://www.twysted-pair.com/capidcds.htm

http://xtronics.com/kits/ccode.htm

w9gb

"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message
...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called
for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they
bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing
the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?
tnx
hank wd5jfr

Hank -

Non–polarized polyester film (Mylar) capacitors are dipped in a hard epoxy
coating material
and provides excellent protection against moisture.
These type of capacitors are intended for general purpose DC applications.

NTE Capacitor selection guide
http://www.calcentron.com/PDF_Docume...capacitors.pdf

http://w1.859.telia.com/~u85920178/b...onen.htm#types

http://zeus.cedcc.psu.edu/caps/allcaps.html#glass

http://www.twysted-pair.com/capidcds.htm

http://xtronics.com/kits/ccode.htm

w9gb

The next level from paper dielectric was mylar. Mylars can be epoxy
dipped usually green dipped, polypropolene is widely used orange
dipped epoxy, and the asian rim caps are brown dipped epoxy. That's
one good way to tell by the color of the epoxy.

73
ray
my yahoo addy don't work



"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message ...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?
tnx
hank wd5jfr

The next level from paper dielectric was mylar. Mylars can be epoxy
dipped usually green dipped, polypropolene is widely used orange
dipped epoxy, and the asian rim caps are brown dipped epoxy. That's
one good way to tell by the color of the epoxy.

73
ray
my yahoo addy don't work



"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message ...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?
tnx
hank wd5jfr

On 20 Jul 2003 08:25:01 -0700, (ray) wrote:

The next level from paper dielectric was mylar. Mylars can be epoxy
dipped usually green dipped, polypropolene is widely used orange
dipped epoxy, and the asian rim caps are brown dipped epoxy. That's
one good way to tell by the color of the epoxy.

73
ray
my yahoo addy don't work



"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message ...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?

And dark red? Or is that the 'brown' you refer to? Some colour-blind
fellows confuse the two...

On 20 Jul 2003 08:25:01 -0700, (ray) wrote:

The next level from paper dielectric was mylar. Mylars can be epoxy
dipped usually green dipped, polypropolene is widely used orange
dipped epoxy, and the asian rim caps are brown dipped epoxy. That's
one good way to tell by the color of the epoxy.

73
ray
my yahoo addy don't work



"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message ...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?

And dark red? Or is that the 'brown' you refer to? Some colour-blind
fellows confuse the two...

"Leon Heller" wrote in message ...
"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message
...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called
for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they
bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing
the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?

Mylar caps aren't used very much. Metallised polyester are easier to find.

Leon

Erk??!! Mylar is a DuPont brand name for polyester, actually.
"Mylar® is an extraordinarily strong polyester film that grew out of
the development
of Dacron® in the early 1950s."

Mylars (polyesters) are generally good for audio work. They can
contribute a small amount of distortion, but that's unlikely to be an
issue in ham work. They have higher loss (dissipation factor) than
polypropylenes, and the latter should be used in applications where
there is appreciable AC current such as in switching power supplies.
It's very hard to ID them from just the appearance. You may be able
to look up a manufacturer's part number, and if you wanted, you could
measure some parameter such as temperature coefficient, which
generally is a good indicator of the dielectric. But I submit that
it's not worth it! If you can identify it as a film capacitor (as
opposed to an electrolytic, ceramic, or mica), and the application
says that Mylar is good, then probably what you have will be fine.
Polyester and polypropylene are, I believe, far and away the most
common film caps, and polyprop should serve very nicely anywhere a
polyester is called for.

Sometimes internal construction is important; a design may call for a
"non-inductive" capacitor. Then you probably should buy the right
thing, to be sure, or at least measure the cap at high enough
frequency to see if it has significant inductance.

Cheers,
Tom

"Leon Heller" wrote in message ...
"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message
...
I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called
for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they
bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing
the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?

Mylar caps aren't used very much. Metallised polyester are easier to find.

Leon

Erk??!! Mylar is a DuPont brand name for polyester, actually.
"Mylar® is an extraordinarily strong polyester film that grew out of
the development
of Dacron® in the early 1950s."

Mylars (polyesters) are generally good for audio work. They can
contribute a small amount of distortion, but that's unlikely to be an
issue in ham work. They have higher loss (dissipation factor) than
polypropylenes, and the latter should be used in applications where
there is appreciable AC current such as in switching power supplies.
It's very hard to ID them from just the appearance. You may be able
to look up a manufacturer's part number, and if you wanted, you could
measure some parameter such as temperature coefficient, which
generally is a good indicator of the dielectric. But I submit that
it's not worth it! If you can identify it as a film capacitor (as
opposed to an electrolytic, ceramic, or mica), and the application
says that Mylar is good, then probably what you have will be fine.
Polyester and polypropylene are, I believe, far and away the most
common film caps, and polyprop should serve very nicely anywhere a
polyester is called for.

Sometimes internal construction is important; a design may call for a
"non-inductive" capacitor. Then you probably should buy the right
thing, to be sure, or at least measure the cap at high enough
frequency to see if it has significant inductance.

Cheers,
Tom

In article , "Henry Kolesnik"
writes:

I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?
tnx
hank wd5jfr

I would suggest looking at the Cornell-Dubilier or Illinois Capacitor
catalogs (both have websites, too). There you will find out more interior
whys and wherefores of capacitor types and their insulation and
construction.

The "wound" (as in winding) type used to be aluminum foil in a paper
strip sandwich. Mylar film was substituted for paper for better
environmental performance. Other plastic film types are used such as
polypropylene and polystyrene, even Teflon. With development of
deposited metalization, the aluminum foil was replaced with direct
deposit of metal on the film...which cost less to produce.

There are some notable differences in dielectric material versus temp-
erature performance with both positive and negative temperature
coefficients possible depending on material _and_ construction. You
have to see manufacturer's literature to get full details on that.

There is no real identification of the interior construction based on the
exterior appearance, lead placement, or color of the outside. Those are
all manufacturer's choices and there is no EIA standard on esthetics.

Mylar capacitors, as all the other film types, generally have higher
insulation resistance than paper, thus they are more suitable for tube
circuits' or FETs' high impedances. High withstanding voltages (300
VDC and more) are fairly easy to get with both paper and film types,
but that also leads to large sizes.

Silver-mica (usually called "dipped mica" due to the exterior coating)
is generally better above a MHz due to higher Q...but many ceramic
dielectric capacitors (very high dielectric constant) can be just as good.
The "ceramics" can be made with "zero", positive, or negative
temperature coefficients...and the common lower-voltage bypass-use
types have a high negative tempco but are cheaper than most. All of
those have good Q at a MHz and higher compared to the wrapped
paper/film variety.

There are two basic types of wrapped (actually rolled) capacitors. One
has the conductring material within the width of the paper or film...the
other (almost always using aluminum foil) has each end extending out
from the dielectric so that the leads can have all of the foil crimped on
them. The latter results in a much lower internal inductance compared
to the former and is a very important consideration for "RF" circuits.

With the miniaturization of SMT, the "co-fired" construction is leading to
very small high-capacitance values where metalized ceramic plates are
fired together in sandwiches. See the "Blue Cell" trademark construction
method used by several, including Mini-Circuits. In some cases entire
stripline structures, including capacitors, can be made as one unit.

Capacitors are chosen for a circuit depending on their capacity, working
voltage, temperature coefficient, Q, insulation resistance, lead placement,
and general characteristics. You should KNOW the circuit and what it
needs to determine what you can use...or follow some article's description
precisely, putting your faith in the author and editors. :-) [I've been
both
author and editor...]

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

In article , "Henry Kolesnik"
writes:

I was at a hamfest looking for some mylar caps for a circuit that called for
them. I got several opinions on how to tell one and finall gave up. Are
there any sure fire ways to identiy a cap as mylar and why are they bettter
than a silver mica or others. Does anyone have a short chart comparing the
characteristics? How did we get by before mylar was used?
tnx
hank wd5jfr

I would suggest looking at the Cornell-Dubilier or Illinois Capacitor
catalogs (both have websites, too). There you will find out more interior
whys and wherefores of capacitor types and their insulation and
construction.

The "wound" (as in winding) type used to be aluminum foil in a paper
strip sandwich. Mylar film was substituted for paper for better
environmental performance. Other plastic film types are used such as
polypropylene and polystyrene, even Teflon. With development of
deposited metalization, the aluminum foil was replaced with direct
deposit of metal on the film...which cost less to produce.

There are some notable differences in dielectric material versus temp-
erature performance with both positive and negative temperature
coefficients possible depending on material _and_ construction. You
have to see manufacturer's literature to get full details on that.

There is no real identification of the interior construction based on the
exterior appearance, lead placement, or color of the outside. Those are
all manufacturer's choices and there is no EIA standard on esthetics.

Mylar capacitors, as all the other film types, generally have higher
insulation resistance than paper, thus they are more suitable for tube
circuits' or FETs' high impedances. High withstanding voltages (300
VDC and more) are fairly easy to get with both paper and film types,
but that also leads to large sizes.

Silver-mica (usually called "dipped mica" due to the exterior coating)
is generally better above a MHz due to higher Q...but many ceramic
dielectric capacitors (very high dielectric constant) can be just as good.
The "ceramics" can be made with "zero", positive, or negative
temperature coefficients...and the common lower-voltage bypass-use
types have a high negative tempco but are cheaper than most. All of
those have good Q at a MHz and higher compared to the wrapped
paper/film variety.

There are two basic types of wrapped (actually rolled) capacitors. One
has the conductring material within the width of the paper or film...the
other (almost always using aluminum foil) has each end extending out
from the dielectric so that the leads can have all of the foil crimped on
them. The latter results in a much lower internal inductance compared
to the former and is a very important consideration for "RF" circuits.

With the miniaturization of SMT, the "co-fired" construction is leading to
very small high-capacitance values where metalized ceramic plates are
fired together in sandwiches. See the "Blue Cell" trademark construction
method used by several, including Mini-Circuits. In some cases entire
stripline structures, including capacitors, can be made as one unit.

Capacitors are chosen for a circuit depending on their capacity, working
voltage, temperature coefficient, Q, insulation resistance, lead placement,
and general characteristics. You should KNOW the circuit and what it
needs to determine what you can use...or follow some article's description
precisely, putting your faith in the author and editors. :-) [I've been
both
author and editor...]

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Sure. For whatever reason, some audiophiles still want them:

http://www.welbornelabs.com/jupiter.htm

Paper caps show up in other places:

http://www.evox-rifa.com/technote_pdf/rfi_fact.pdf

Frank Dresser

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Sure. For whatever reason, some audiophiles still want them:

http://www.welbornelabs.com/jupiter.htm

Paper caps show up in other places:

http://www.evox-rifa.com/technote_pdf/rfi_fact.pdf

Frank Dresser

"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message
...
Other questions now come to mind. Why are paper caps usually tubular but
mylar or poly are rolled but on a very flat oval cross section? I've been
told to stay away from the green and brown dipped caps that come from
asian
areas as they can be a source of problems.
tnx
hank wd5jfr


Plastic film caps can be rolled into a round tube. Bob's Antique Radios &
Supplies has them:

http://www.radioantiques.com/supplies.html

These are much like the old Sprague Yellow Jackets. Similiar or identical
caps are at Antique Electronic Supply.

As far as I know, the flat oval style is only used for radial lead
capacitors. I suppose there's an advantage in trading width for height in
PC board construction.

Frank Dresser

"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message
...
Other questions now come to mind. Why are paper caps usually tubular but
mylar or poly are rolled but on a very flat oval cross section? I've been
told to stay away from the green and brown dipped caps that come from
asian
areas as they can be a source of problems.
tnx
hank wd5jfr


Plastic film caps can be rolled into a round tube. Bob's Antique Radios &
Supplies has them:

http://www.radioantiques.com/supplies.html

These are much like the old Sprague Yellow Jackets. Similiar or identical
caps are at Antique Electronic Supply.

As far as I know, the flat oval style is only used for radial lead
capacitors. I suppose there's an advantage in trading width for height in
PC board construction.

Frank Dresser

Thanks for the info! The audiophile connection isn't surprising
considering their general nostalgia for archaic technology. Let me guess
-- the wax-coated ones are surely best because of the soft sound they
impart. But I see that paper *is* still a viable dielectric for
capacitors requiring the best self-healing properties. A quick scan of
the web seems to indicate that's their remaining market. I see that
plastic dielectrics are being touted for good self-healing properties,
and at least one vendor uses a combination paper-polypropylene
dielectric. So it looks like paper might be getting slowly pushed out.
But there's no doubt they're still being made and used, all right.

I've just been lucky and not had to deal directly with components for AC
mains RF suppression, except potted units.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Frank Dresser wrote:
"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...

Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL



Sure. For whatever reason, some audiophiles still want them:

http://www.welbornelabs.com/jupiter.htm

Paper caps show up in other places:

http://www.evox-rifa.com/technote_pdf/rfi_fact.pdf

Frank Dresser

Thanks for the info! The audiophile connection isn't surprising
considering their general nostalgia for archaic technology. Let me guess
-- the wax-coated ones are surely best because of the soft sound they
impart. But I see that paper *is* still a viable dielectric for
capacitors requiring the best self-healing properties. A quick scan of
the web seems to indicate that's their remaining market. I see that
plastic dielectrics are being touted for good self-healing properties,
and at least one vendor uses a combination paper-polypropylene
dielectric. So it looks like paper might be getting slowly pushed out.
But there's no doubt they're still being made and used, all right.

I've just been lucky and not had to deal directly with components for AC
mains RF suppression, except potted units.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Frank Dresser wrote:
"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...

Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL



Sure. For whatever reason, some audiophiles still want them:

http://www.welbornelabs.com/jupiter.htm

Paper caps show up in other places:

http://www.evox-rifa.com/technote_pdf/rfi_fact.pdf

Frank Dresser

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Sure. For whatever reason, some audiophiles still want them:

http://www.welbornelabs.com/jupiter.htm

Paper caps show up in other places:

http://www.evox-rifa.com/technote_pdf/rfi_fact.pdf

I doubt any self-respecting audio designer would use them now, but
people restoring older gear often want to retain originality.

Rob

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
Does anybody actually make paper dielectric capacitors any more? I
thought they'd been gone for a couple of decades now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Sure. For whatever reason, some audiophiles still want them:

http://www.welbornelabs.com/jupiter.htm

Paper caps show up in other places:

http://www.evox-rifa.com/technote_pdf/rfi_fact.pdf

I doubt any self-respecting audio designer would use them now, but
people restoring older gear often want to retain originality.

Rob

"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message ...
Other questions now come to mind. Why are paper caps usually tubular but
mylar or poly are rolled but on a very flat oval cross section? I've been
told to stay away from the green and brown dipped caps that come from asian
areas as they can be a source of problems.

?? As Roy said, you probably won't find many modern paper caps.

Polyester (aka Mylar) caps come in a wide array of shapes. You can
get them as round, axial leaded parts in either molded or
shrink-sleeve packages; as rectangular-cased "radial" leaded parts; as
dipped radial leaded parts, and even (in large values) with screw
terminals. You can get them in surface-mount packages. It's really
pretty difficult to tell what's inside by the look of things outside.

FWIW, I've been conducting a long-term experiment on a couple
polyester and a couple polypropylene caps to find the self-discharge
time constant. The caps I'm testing are WIMA MKP10 polyprops and M/C
708D1 polyesters, both 0.1uF. The polyesters are exhibiting a time
constant around 4 years, and the polyprops are up in the neighborhood
of 50 years. In other words, modern caps are quite a bit lower
leakage than you'd expect from the info in sources like "Reference
Data for Engineers," and unless you are doing some very low current
work, better than you're likely to ever need, in terms of dielectric
resistance. That was NOT the case in the old days! But there are
other things to worry about. Dielectric absorption can cause trouble.
There are small nonlinearities that are a problem in very low
distortion equipment. Dissipation factor is important especially when
dealing with fairly high RMS currents. Stability can be a factor in
some designs. And of course, voltage rating and tolerance are obvious
ones. I'd guess with a little web-searching, you can find some
guidance about selecting caps with respect to these and other factors.

Cheers,
Tom

"Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message ...
Other questions now come to mind. Why are paper caps usually tubular but
mylar or poly are rolled but on a very flat oval cross section? I've been
told to stay away from the green and brown dipped caps that come from asian
areas as they can be a source of problems.

?? As Roy said, you probably won't find many modern paper caps.

Polyester (aka Mylar) caps come in a wide array of shapes. You can
get them as round, axial leaded parts in either molded or
shrink-sleeve packages; as rectangular-cased "radial" leaded parts; as
dipped radial leaded parts, and even (in large values) with screw
terminals. You can get them in surface-mount packages. It's really
pretty difficult to tell what's inside by the look of things outside.

FWIW, I've been conducting a long-term experiment on a couple
polyester and a couple polypropylene caps to find the self-discharge
time constant. The caps I'm testing are WIMA MKP10 polyprops and M/C
708D1 polyesters, both 0.1uF. The polyesters are exhibiting a time
constant around 4 years, and the polyprops are up in the neighborhood
of 50 years. In other words, modern caps are quite a bit lower
leakage than you'd expect from the info in sources like "Reference
Data for Engineers," and unless you are doing some very low current
work, better than you're likely to ever need, in terms of dielectric
resistance. That was NOT the case in the old days! But there are
other things to worry about. Dielectric absorption can cause trouble.
There are small nonlinearities that are a problem in very low
distortion equipment. Dissipation factor is important especially when
dealing with fairly high RMS currents. Stability can be a factor in
some designs. And of course, voltage rating and tolerance are obvious
ones. I'd guess with a little web-searching, you can find some
guidance about selecting caps with respect to these and other factors.

Cheers,
Tom

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 03:52:57 +0000 (UTC) "Leon Heller"
wrote:

Mylar caps aren't used very much. Metallised polyester are easier to find.

I think Mylar is simply a brand name for a particular brand of
polyester.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 03:52:57 +0000 (UTC) "Leon Heller"
wrote:

Mylar caps aren't used very much. Metallised polyester are easier to find.

I think Mylar is simply a brand name for a particular brand of
polyester.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------