In article , Bob McConnell
writes:

I don't have a catalog anymore, but Vector used to make a variety of
pins, for both wire wrap and solder, that fit in their perfboards.
Punch in the pins, mount the components on them, run the connections
on the bottom and solder. They also had a wiring pencil that could be
used to run the connections. The wire had an insulation that would
melt when hit with solder. I wired up a couple of simple IC based
digital designs with one. I just used normal DIP sockets for the IC's.

Vector Electronics has a website with catalog information on it.

The wire you are mentioning is like "SolderEze" or some name
similar to that, usually found in #26 AWG size. I've used it but
would just as soon go with ordinary Kynar insultaion wire-wrap
stuff. SolderEze tended to get abrasion of the insulation, resulting
in cross-circuiting. Especially so with heat.

I got spoiled with #24 and #26 Teflon insulated solid wire, strips
easily and never abrades the insultation.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

In article , Bob McConnell
writes:

I don't have a catalog anymore, but Vector used to make a variety of
pins, for both wire wrap and solder, that fit in their perfboards.
Punch in the pins, mount the components on them, run the connections
on the bottom and solder. They also had a wiring pencil that could be
used to run the connections. The wire had an insulation that would
melt when hit with solder. I wired up a couple of simple IC based
digital designs with one. I just used normal DIP sockets for the IC's.

Vector Electronics has a website with catalog information on it.

The wire you are mentioning is like "SolderEze" or some name
similar to that, usually found in #26 AWG size. I've used it but
would just as soon go with ordinary Kynar insultaion wire-wrap
stuff. SolderEze tended to get abrasion of the insulation, resulting
in cross-circuiting. Especially so with heat.

I got spoiled with #24 and #26 Teflon insulated solid wire, strips
easily and never abrades the insultation.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes:

In Europe there's a gadget called a Dalo resist pen which is made
specifically for hand-drawing on PCBs. It has a fine fibre tip and very
thick, quick-drying ink. It's very expensive for what it is (namely a
not very good fibre-tip pen) but with care it can be quite effective.

As many people already know, the Staedtler marker pens (waterproof/
wasserfest grade) are excellent for touching-up photo and iron-on resist
patterns, but they're not as good as the Dalo for filling large areas.

I'll add something from the machine shop that is probably in
the UK as well: Marker lacquer used to make marks on metal
about to be machined. Over here it is usually a deep blue and
is very dilute lacquer, obvious from the acetone odor. Various
brands, some are available in red or green (not good colors).
Scribes nicely. Brushes well with small brushes available from
craft stores.

From the drafting department of old: K&E ink pens, the two-part
cylindrical, concentric ones. Those will hold dilute lacquers and
there is a pen holder that takes the nibs. Must soak them in
acetone after using since the capilliary clearance is tiny. With
practice those pens can draw straight lines but any dilute lacquer
likes to migrate to the straightedge...:-)

Office Depot and Office Max chains over here carry the Sanford
"Sharpie" pens (permanent marker type) whose ink is ferric
chloride resistant. I find it difficult to maintain a fine nib on those
for small foil lines and prefer a small brush. Mileage varies.

I once tried acetone-diluted liquid rosin as a resist, had mixed
results. Nice odor combination while doing it. :-)

As always, with any kind of resist, the unetched copper surface
must be clean and oxide free, smooth in order to take the resist
evenly.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes:

In Europe there's a gadget called a Dalo resist pen which is made
specifically for hand-drawing on PCBs. It has a fine fibre tip and very
thick, quick-drying ink. It's very expensive for what it is (namely a
not very good fibre-tip pen) but with care it can be quite effective.

As many people already know, the Staedtler marker pens (waterproof/
wasserfest grade) are excellent for touching-up photo and iron-on resist
patterns, but they're not as good as the Dalo for filling large areas.

I'll add something from the machine shop that is probably in
the UK as well: Marker lacquer used to make marks on metal
about to be machined. Over here it is usually a deep blue and
is very dilute lacquer, obvious from the acetone odor. Various
brands, some are available in red or green (not good colors).
Scribes nicely. Brushes well with small brushes available from
craft stores.

From the drafting department of old: K&E ink pens, the two-part
cylindrical, concentric ones. Those will hold dilute lacquers and
there is a pen holder that takes the nibs. Must soak them in
acetone after using since the capilliary clearance is tiny. With
practice those pens can draw straight lines but any dilute lacquer
likes to migrate to the straightedge...:-)

Office Depot and Office Max chains over here carry the Sanford
"Sharpie" pens (permanent marker type) whose ink is ferric
chloride resistant. I find it difficult to maintain a fine nib on those
for small foil lines and prefer a small brush. Mileage varies.

I once tried acetone-diluted liquid rosin as a resist, had mixed
results. Nice odor combination while doing it. :-)

As always, with any kind of resist, the unetched copper surface
must be clean and oxide free, smooth in order to take the resist
evenly.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

Have had reasonable success using the "Sharpies." What kicks me is way back
when, when I bought a PCB kit from the Shack, I tried to make one and the
ink came right off. I gave up - I was still young and stupid, but it was the
ink that failed. A few years later, I decided to give it another go, using
sharpies after reading some others having used them. I did nothing else
different. The success was in the pen. Had I tried a different pen way back
when, instead of giving up, I could have been very good at it by now, rather
than OK. I have made a few PC boards and though "my" artistic talent isn't
that great, the boards came out ok and work as intended. When I do decide to
make a project, I actually enjoy going through the whole process including
making the board. It is fun to go from nothing to a working item. I've made
some test equipment for my shop that has saved me a few hours time already
and paid for themselves in parts, time and effort. Just out of curiosity,
anyone else buy the Shacks PCB kits and have any problems with the pens? OR
solution? For me, the solution has been ok. MNS


"Avery Fineman" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes:

In Europe there's a gadget called a Dalo resist pen which is made
specifically for hand-drawing on PCBs. It has a fine fibre tip and very
thick, quick-drying ink. It's very expensive for what it is (namely a
not very good fibre-tip pen) but with care it can be quite effective.

As many people already know, the Staedtler marker pens (waterproof/
wasserfest grade) are excellent for touching-up photo and iron-on resist
patterns, but they're not as good as the Dalo for filling large areas.

I'll add something from the machine shop that is probably in
the UK as well: Marker lacquer used to make marks on metal
about to be machined. Over here it is usually a deep blue and
is very dilute lacquer, obvious from the acetone odor. Various
brands, some are available in red or green (not good colors).
Scribes nicely. Brushes well with small brushes available from
craft stores.

From the drafting department of old: K&E ink pens, the two-part
cylindrical, concentric ones. Those will hold dilute lacquers and
there is a pen holder that takes the nibs. Must soak them in
acetone after using since the capilliary clearance is tiny. With
practice those pens can draw straight lines but any dilute lacquer
likes to migrate to the straightedge...:-)

Office Depot and Office Max chains over here carry the Sanford
"Sharpie" pens (permanent marker type) whose ink is ferric
chloride resistant. I find it difficult to maintain a fine nib on
those
for small foil lines and prefer a small brush. Mileage varies.

I once tried acetone-diluted liquid rosin as a resist, had mixed
results. Nice odor combination while doing it. :-)

As always, with any kind of resist, the unetched copper surface
must be clean and oxide free, smooth in order to take the resist
evenly.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

Have had reasonable success using the "Sharpies." What kicks me is way back
when, when I bought a PCB kit from the Shack, I tried to make one and the
ink came right off. I gave up - I was still young and stupid, but it was the
ink that failed. A few years later, I decided to give it another go, using
sharpies after reading some others having used them. I did nothing else
different. The success was in the pen. Had I tried a different pen way back
when, instead of giving up, I could have been very good at it by now, rather
than OK. I have made a few PC boards and though "my" artistic talent isn't
that great, the boards came out ok and work as intended. When I do decide to
make a project, I actually enjoy going through the whole process including
making the board. It is fun to go from nothing to a working item. I've made
some test equipment for my shop that has saved me a few hours time already
and paid for themselves in parts, time and effort. Just out of curiosity,
anyone else buy the Shacks PCB kits and have any problems with the pens? OR
solution? For me, the solution has been ok. MNS


"Avery Fineman" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ian White, G3SEK"
writes:

In Europe there's a gadget called a Dalo resist pen which is made
specifically for hand-drawing on PCBs. It has a fine fibre tip and very
thick, quick-drying ink. It's very expensive for what it is (namely a
not very good fibre-tip pen) but with care it can be quite effective.

As many people already know, the Staedtler marker pens (waterproof/
wasserfest grade) are excellent for touching-up photo and iron-on resist
patterns, but they're not as good as the Dalo for filling large areas.

I'll add something from the machine shop that is probably in
the UK as well: Marker lacquer used to make marks on metal
about to be machined. Over here it is usually a deep blue and
is very dilute lacquer, obvious from the acetone odor. Various
brands, some are available in red or green (not good colors).
Scribes nicely. Brushes well with small brushes available from
craft stores.

From the drafting department of old: K&E ink pens, the two-part
cylindrical, concentric ones. Those will hold dilute lacquers and
there is a pen holder that takes the nibs. Must soak them in
acetone after using since the capilliary clearance is tiny. With
practice those pens can draw straight lines but any dilute lacquer
likes to migrate to the straightedge...:-)

Office Depot and Office Max chains over here carry the Sanford
"Sharpie" pens (permanent marker type) whose ink is ferric
chloride resistant. I find it difficult to maintain a fine nib on
those
for small foil lines and prefer a small brush. Mileage varies.

I once tried acetone-diluted liquid rosin as a resist, had mixed
results. Nice odor combination while doing it. :-)

As always, with any kind of resist, the unetched copper surface
must be clean and oxide free, smooth in order to take the resist
evenly.

Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person

"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message ...
Avery Fineman wrote:


One thing that all should remember: Electrons don't care about "neat"
construction. "Neat" gets something past inspectors, appeals to
customers, looks mighty fine and "professional" in photographs.
Electrons don't care for any of that. Fields and waves only care about
placement of conductors and nearby dielectric material.

[...]

Right on! But...if one is familiar with RF layout through experience
and a "feel" for lead placement and lengths, perf can be used on
up to 70 MHz. That is NOT recommended for beginners who have
just memorized Ohm's Law.

Wish I knew how to pass on that "feel" for RF layout to other people.
It's easy to explain to someone why their existing layout doesn't work,
but more difficult to make positive recommendations so their next
attempt *will* work.

I once wrote an article about that for RadCom, which was lifted by the
ARRL Handbook and survived for some years as part of the Construction
chapter as 'From Schematic to Working Circuit'. That chapter, taken as a
whole, is a pretty good basic reference.

But in the end, there's no substitute for your own experience. Just
build and build and build. Notice what works, and what doesn't... and
then the trick is to understand why.




For this kind of project, I very often use PCB design software to work
up the layout, but don't always etch a board. Just as often, I cut a
piece of single-sided board, tape a 1:1 printout of the PCB design onto
the board and use it as a drilling template. Then I hand-wire the
underside using the layout as a guide.

I cheat a bit. Originally an illustrator, I sketch out the foil paths on
vellum 1:1, mark the drill holes and use the vellum as a small
center-punch guide. The paths are then painted in with lacquer,
free-hand, using the vellum as a guide.

The lack of those paper-graphics skills is why I use the PCB software.
Heck, I even use it for roughing-out stripboard layouts, to try to
maximize the use of the strips.

In Europe there's a gadget called a Dalo resist pen which is made
specifically for hand-drawing on PCBs. It has a fine fibre tip and very
thick, quick-drying ink. It's very expensive for what it is (namely a
not very good fibre-tip pen) but with care it can be quite effective.

As many people already know, the Staedtler marker pens (waterproof/
wasserfest grade) are excellent for touching-up photo and iron-on resist
patterns, but they're not as good as the Dalo for filling large areas.

Those Dalo pens are nothing but lacquer pens... Sharpies, laundry
markers....even other brands of common permanent markers will
work..........you can get by cheaper and have a better supply of tip
sizes from ultrafine for smt work to xtra large that will cover ground
planes nicely. Other permanent markers will also work. Stadtler pens
are nice too, dont know their chemical makeup but they are tougher to
remove than sharpie lacquer pens with solvents.

I do surface mount by hand with a double ended sharpie, one end has
the normal fine tip and the other end has the ultrafine tip.
I used a piece of clear plastic to layout the patterns for common soic
and surface mount resistor capacitor pads and drilled these out with a
very fine drill bit used for drilling out small gas appliance
orifices, it works great

Anyhow.....I have used perfboard for projects before, its quick and if
you take your time you can do some really nice work. I have also used
g-10 with the copper completely etched off for projects that used
larger components where it was easier just to used 18 gauge wire
underneath as opposed to ridiculously large traces.
For hobbyist purposes perfboard is fine.......its making sure the
circuit works and works reliably that counts.

"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message ...
Avery Fineman wrote:


One thing that all should remember: Electrons don't care about "neat"
construction. "Neat" gets something past inspectors, appeals to
customers, looks mighty fine and "professional" in photographs.
Electrons don't care for any of that. Fields and waves only care about
placement of conductors and nearby dielectric material.

[...]

Right on! But...if one is familiar with RF layout through experience
and a "feel" for lead placement and lengths, perf can be used on
up to 70 MHz. That is NOT recommended for beginners who have
just memorized Ohm's Law.

Wish I knew how to pass on that "feel" for RF layout to other people.
It's easy to explain to someone why their existing layout doesn't work,
but more difficult to make positive recommendations so their next
attempt *will* work.

I once wrote an article about that for RadCom, which was lifted by the
ARRL Handbook and survived for some years as part of the Construction
chapter as 'From Schematic to Working Circuit'. That chapter, taken as a
whole, is a pretty good basic reference.

But in the end, there's no substitute for your own experience. Just
build and build and build. Notice what works, and what doesn't... and
then the trick is to understand why.




For this kind of project, I very often use PCB design software to work
up the layout, but don't always etch a board. Just as often, I cut a
piece of single-sided board, tape a 1:1 printout of the PCB design onto
the board and use it as a drilling template. Then I hand-wire the
underside using the layout as a guide.

I cheat a bit. Originally an illustrator, I sketch out the foil paths on
vellum 1:1, mark the drill holes and use the vellum as a small
center-punch guide. The paths are then painted in with lacquer,
free-hand, using the vellum as a guide.

The lack of those paper-graphics skills is why I use the PCB software.
Heck, I even use it for roughing-out stripboard layouts, to try to
maximize the use of the strips.

In Europe there's a gadget called a Dalo resist pen which is made
specifically for hand-drawing on PCBs. It has a fine fibre tip and very
thick, quick-drying ink. It's very expensive for what it is (namely a
not very good fibre-tip pen) but with care it can be quite effective.

As many people already know, the Staedtler marker pens (waterproof/
wasserfest grade) are excellent for touching-up photo and iron-on resist
patterns, but they're not as good as the Dalo for filling large areas.

Those Dalo pens are nothing but lacquer pens... Sharpies, laundry
markers....even other brands of common permanent markers will
work..........you can get by cheaper and have a better supply of tip
sizes from ultrafine for smt work to xtra large that will cover ground
planes nicely. Other permanent markers will also work. Stadtler pens
are nice too, dont know their chemical makeup but they are tougher to
remove than sharpie lacquer pens with solvents.

I do surface mount by hand with a double ended sharpie, one end has
the normal fine tip and the other end has the ultrafine tip.
I used a piece of clear plastic to layout the patterns for common soic
and surface mount resistor capacitor pads and drilled these out with a
very fine drill bit used for drilling out small gas appliance
orifices, it works great

Anyhow.....I have used perfboard for projects before, its quick and if
you take your time you can do some really nice work. I have also used
g-10 with the copper completely etched off for projects that used
larger components where it was easier just to used 18 gauge wire
underneath as opposed to ridiculously large traces.
For hobbyist purposes perfboard is fine.......its making sure the
circuit works and works reliably that counts.

cornytheclown ) writes:

Those Dalo pens are nothing but lacquer pens... Sharpies, laundry
markers....even other brands of common permanent markers will
work..........you can get by cheaper and have a better supply of tip
sizes from ultrafine for smt work to xtra large that will cover ground
planes nicely. Other permanent markers will also work. Stadtler pens
are nice too, dont know their chemical makeup but they are tougher to
remove than sharpie lacquer pens with solvents.

There was an article in Ham Radio, in the late eighties or so,
when someone wrote about using common pens for etch resist. He
mentioned adding some rubbing alcohol to the ink (ie pull open
the pen, and put in a bit of it) to make the ink flow better.
I know I tried it at the time, and the ink did apply better. I
can't remember if I ever etched boards with such a souped up pen.

Michael VE2BVW

cornytheclown ) writes:

Those Dalo pens are nothing but lacquer pens... Sharpies, laundry
markers....even other brands of common permanent markers will
work..........you can get by cheaper and have a better supply of tip
sizes from ultrafine for smt work to xtra large that will cover ground
planes nicely. Other permanent markers will also work. Stadtler pens
are nice too, dont know their chemical makeup but they are tougher to
remove than sharpie lacquer pens with solvents.

There was an article in Ham Radio, in the late eighties or so,
when someone wrote about using common pens for etch resist. He
mentioned adding some rubbing alcohol to the ink (ie pull open
the pen, and put in a bit of it) to make the ink flow better.
I know I tried it at the time, and the ink did apply better. I
can't remember if I ever etched boards with such a souped up pen.

Michael VE2BVW