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safeguard against brownouts
Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages.
Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). 73 Uwe |
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:05:39 GMT, U wrote:
Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages. Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). There is a magazine called "Home Power" which deals with all sorts of home power generation and storage issues, and enabling technology. See the articles as well as the advertisements. Online: http://www.homepower.com/ Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear) ------------------------------------------------ at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom |
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:05:39 GMT, U wrote:
Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages. Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). There is a magazine called "Home Power" which deals with all sorts of home power generation and storage issues, and enabling technology. See the articles as well as the advertisements. Online: http://www.homepower.com/ Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear) ------------------------------------------------ at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom |
In article ,
U wrote: So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? What you want is something called a "float charger". It provides a carefully-regulated charging voltage (typically in the 13.5 - 13.8 volt range), with a current limiter. The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. A trickle charger may, or may not regulate the charging voltage carefully enough to allow it to be hooked up on a semi-permanent basis. If the voltage is too low, the battery may not maintain a good charge state, and may not recharge if you run it down partway. If the voltage is too high, the battery will begin "gassing" - the high voltage breaks down the water in the electrolyte into hydrogen and oxygen gasses. If you don't replace the lost water (using distilled or demineralized water) periodically, the electrolyte level will fall below the top of the plates, and you'll lose charge capacity and may very well damage the battery permanently. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). Standard battery chargers are often of a dual-voltage variety. They fast-charge the battery at a high voltage (around 14.4 volts) until it's mostly charged, and then switch to a lower trickle-charge voltage (13.8 or so) to finish the charging without excessive loss of electrolyte. Unless they're designed for long-term float charging use (careful voltage regulation, with some amount of temperature-based adjustment of the float voltage), leaving a charger of this sort hooked up on a long-term basis can still result in some loss of electrolyte. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
In article ,
U wrote: So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? What you want is something called a "float charger". It provides a carefully-regulated charging voltage (typically in the 13.5 - 13.8 volt range), with a current limiter. The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. A trickle charger may, or may not regulate the charging voltage carefully enough to allow it to be hooked up on a semi-permanent basis. If the voltage is too low, the battery may not maintain a good charge state, and may not recharge if you run it down partway. If the voltage is too high, the battery will begin "gassing" - the high voltage breaks down the water in the electrolyte into hydrogen and oxygen gasses. If you don't replace the lost water (using distilled or demineralized water) periodically, the electrolyte level will fall below the top of the plates, and you'll lose charge capacity and may very well damage the battery permanently. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). Standard battery chargers are often of a dual-voltage variety. They fast-charge the battery at a high voltage (around 14.4 volts) until it's mostly charged, and then switch to a lower trickle-charge voltage (13.8 or so) to finish the charging without excessive loss of electrolyte. Unless they're designed for long-term float charging use (careful voltage regulation, with some amount of temperature-based adjustment of the float voltage), leaving a charger of this sort hooked up on a long-term basis can still result in some loss of electrolyte. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages.
Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). ======================= Don't know how much power is involved and the average duration of an outage , but the simplest way to keep power during brownouts is to use a UPS=Uninterruptable Power Supply with integral batteries . I am using a make APC=American Power Corporation , model Back-ups Pro 650 (650 Volt * Amp or 650 VA ,which equals 650 Watts when power factor =1) Back -up time at full load is approx 15 minutes. UPSes are also available for connection to external batteries . Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages.
Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). ======================= Don't know how much power is involved and the average duration of an outage , but the simplest way to keep power during brownouts is to use a UPS=Uninterruptable Power Supply with integral batteries . I am using a make APC=American Power Corporation , model Back-ups Pro 650 (650 Volt * Amp or 650 VA ,which equals 650 Watts when power factor =1) Back -up time at full load is approx 15 minutes. UPSes are also available for connection to external batteries . Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
In article , U
writes: Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages. Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). With good control of charging current and voltage, the battery can "float" in the circuit, always connected to the charger or the AC mains low voltage supply that can take over from the battery when mains are hot. The space folks do that regularly from low earth orbit (90 min.) to geo-synchronous (24 hours), using series power diode isolation. Another thought is to check out computer UPSs which have already been engineered and tested, ready to go off the shelf. Those can handle up to 600 W loads for small servers and auto-switch to internal batter in less than an AC cycle. Industrial-strength UPS models can handle much more. A little, cheap UPS sits between my PC box and line all the time now, can easily handle 300 W loads for several minutes. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
In article , U
writes: Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages. Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). With good control of charging current and voltage, the battery can "float" in the circuit, always connected to the charger or the AC mains low voltage supply that can take over from the battery when mains are hot. The space folks do that regularly from low earth orbit (90 min.) to geo-synchronous (24 hours), using series power diode isolation. Another thought is to check out computer UPSs which have already been engineered and tested, ready to go off the shelf. Those can handle up to 600 W loads for small servers and auto-switch to internal batter in less than an AC cycle. Industrial-strength UPS models can handle much more. A little, cheap UPS sits between my PC box and line all the time now, can easily handle 300 W loads for several minutes. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
in article , Avery Fineman at
wrote on 2/25/04 20:57: In article , U writes: Where I live, in the woods of Maine, we have power outages. Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. To make things just a bit comfi it would be nice to leave it in place with a charger attached (right now I tote the charger around when needed). Many things will run right off the batterie(s), others might need an inverter. So basically I am talking about a photovoltaic system without the photovoltaic panels, sort off. So which chargers can I leave permanently attached to a battery? The word 'trickle charger' or 'shore power' comes to mind. How is that different from my old Sears charger which does me good for many years already (but I unhook it after a day at most!). With good control of charging current and voltage, the battery can "float" in the circuit, always connected to the charger or the AC mains low voltage supply that can take over from the battery when mains are hot. The space folks do that regularly from low earth orbit (90 min.) to geo-synchronous (24 hours), using series power diode isolation. Another thought is to check out computer UPSs which have already been engineered and tested, ready to go off the shelf. Those can handle up to 600 W loads for small servers and auto-switch to internal batter in less than an AC cycle. Industrial-strength UPS models can handle much more. A little, cheap UPS sits between my PC box and line all the time now, can easily handle 300 W loads for several minutes. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person Len, You are right about the UPS, but the car batteries are already here as is enough stuff to probably build a suitable charging supply with. There is one thing which should not stop around here, I just found that out the hard way, and that is the water pump for my hot water solar collectors (she blows like a whale!). But once I buy that rather expensive DC circulator pump (only 1.5 amps) everything can run off that old battery. I guess the only thing left to do is to find a little circuit which provides that good control you mention so that that battery can really be left on the charger for good (I hear people commenting that some charging circuits do get confused when they are hooked up to a battery which in turn is providing power to a load but I don't understand why that is). regards Uwe |
One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with
temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with
temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with
temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with
temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
"Frank Dinger" wrote in message news:EAo%b.20992$ft.6377@newsfe1-win... One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH ========================================== I should have added to the above that my 'renewable energy' charging voltage will never exceed 13.8 V. If the batteries are charged to this voltage level any energy generated by wind generator and/or solar panels will be 'dumped ' via a number of car headlight bulbs, by means of a simple opamp/ transistor circuit driving a number of pass transistors. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
"Frank Dinger" wrote in message news:EAo%b.20992$ft.6377@newsfe1-win... One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH ========================================== I should have added to the above that my 'renewable energy' charging voltage will never exceed 13.8 V. If the batteries are charged to this voltage level any energy generated by wind generator and/or solar panels will be 'dumped ' via a number of car headlight bulbs, by means of a simple opamp/ transistor circuit driving a number of pass transistors. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Jumping-in, Steve says...
"Frank Dinger" wrote in message news:EAo%b.20992$ft.6377@newsfe1-win... One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? It is the 13.8 voltage limit which must change as the temp changes. The current limit, I believe, is less of a problem. The lead acid should be able to take quite high current when it is still charging (in need of charge) - when it is, it is converting the current into chemical stored-energy. This is what the common 'Sears' chargers do. Hit 'em with volts to get lotsa' current to charge them quickly and make the human responsible for "stopping at full charge". -- Steve N, K,9;d, c. i My email has no u's. When it reaches full charge, then it is producing H & O while decomposing the water -- and probably heat. And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Jumping-in, Steve says...
"Frank Dinger" wrote in message news:EAo%b.20992$ft.6377@newsfe1-win... One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? It is the 13.8 voltage limit which must change as the temp changes. The current limit, I believe, is less of a problem. The lead acid should be able to take quite high current when it is still charging (in need of charge) - when it is, it is converting the current into chemical stored-energy. This is what the common 'Sears' chargers do. Hit 'em with volts to get lotsa' current to charge them quickly and make the human responsible for "stopping at full charge". -- Steve N, K,9;d, c. i My email has no u's. When it reaches full charge, then it is producing H & O while decomposing the water -- and probably heat. And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Frank Dinger wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer to your question. Actually, I'm not sure there is a simple answer. There are a number of quite different types of lead-acid battery, with different plate compositions, construction, and electrolyte form (e.g., liquid and "starved" -- as far as I can tell, gelled electrolyte is no longer used or is at least very rare, in spite of the fondness hams have for dubbing every sealed cell a "gel cell"). Each has its own characteristics, advantages, and shortcomings. I heartily recommend a careful reading of the manufacturer's recommendations for the particular battery you'll be using. In more general terms, I don't think any lead acid battery manufacturer recommends constant current charging at any level. Charging to maintain a cell at full charge (float charging) is, in my experience, invariably recommended to be constant voltage, not constant current, with the voltage being temprature compensated (lower voltage at higher temperature). The amount of current is then whatever the battery requires to maintain full charge. I did a quick google search of lead-acid battery float charging "temperature compensation" and came up with quite a few hits including some basic tutorials, a couple of which were http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm and http://www.emrg.ca/ideas&info/gel_cell/battery_care.htm. There are many more available. But again, batteries can differ quite a great deal, so you should really get information specific to the particular battery, or at the very least, to the general class of battery, that you'll be using. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
Frank Dinger wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that battery voltage changes with temperature, and any float or trickle charger that doesn't take this into account can shorten a battery's life considerably. So if you want to get the longest life from your battery, you should make sure the charger is properly temperature compensated. ======================================= Roy , If the lead acid battery charging current is limited to 0.1C ,(example a 15Ah sealed battery is charged at max 13.8 V with a current not exceeding 1.5A) is temperature compensation then still a necessity to optimise the battery's (usable) life ? And if it is, in which temperature range ? I have not found this info through Web based tutorials. I am very interested in this topic since I charge a number of batteries (some non- sealed some sealed) by means of a (150 W max)wind generator and 2 pcs 64Wpeak solar panel. TIA for any advice Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer to your question. Actually, I'm not sure there is a simple answer. There are a number of quite different types of lead-acid battery, with different plate compositions, construction, and electrolyte form (e.g., liquid and "starved" -- as far as I can tell, gelled electrolyte is no longer used or is at least very rare, in spite of the fondness hams have for dubbing every sealed cell a "gel cell"). Each has its own characteristics, advantages, and shortcomings. I heartily recommend a careful reading of the manufacturer's recommendations for the particular battery you'll be using. In more general terms, I don't think any lead acid battery manufacturer recommends constant current charging at any level. Charging to maintain a cell at full charge (float charging) is, in my experience, invariably recommended to be constant voltage, not constant current, with the voltage being temprature compensated (lower voltage at higher temperature). The amount of current is then whatever the battery requires to maintain full charge. I did a quick google search of lead-acid battery float charging "temperature compensation" and came up with quite a few hits including some basic tutorials, a couple of which were http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm and http://www.emrg.ca/ideas&info/gel_cell/battery_care.htm. There are many more available. But again, batteries can differ quite a great deal, so you should really get information specific to the particular battery, or at the very least, to the general class of battery, that you'll be using. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:05:39 GMT, U wrote:
Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. While a cold diesel is hard to start, the capacity of a car battery drops drastically at cold temperatures and assuming you are referring to temperatures below 0 F (not 0 C), the capacity of the "old" battery is well below nominal even in warm conditions. So even if you can get those cheaply, you may have to have two to get to the nominal capacity. The optimal float charging voltage may be different for different old batteries and this can be a problem when connecting multiple batteries in parallel. Batteries designed for car starter duty often expect some amount of vibration, which they do not get when in stationary use. Unless you get several batteries for free, it is not such a big bargain as it would look like. I don't know about the car battery final disposal costs, but if they are high, collecting a large number of reduced capacity old batteries might be quite expensive when they are finally disposed. Paul OH3LWR |
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:05:39 GMT, U wrote:
Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. While a cold diesel is hard to start, the capacity of a car battery drops drastically at cold temperatures and assuming you are referring to temperatures below 0 F (not 0 C), the capacity of the "old" battery is well below nominal even in warm conditions. So even if you can get those cheaply, you may have to have two to get to the nominal capacity. The optimal float charging voltage may be different for different old batteries and this can be a problem when connecting multiple batteries in parallel. Batteries designed for car starter duty often expect some amount of vibration, which they do not get when in stationary use. Unless you get several batteries for free, it is not such a big bargain as it would look like. I don't know about the car battery final disposal costs, but if they are high, collecting a large number of reduced capacity old batteries might be quite expensive when they are finally disposed. Paul OH3LWR |
the biggest brownout I experienced, I guess one could call that
already a black out, lastet 2 weeks and was unusual. These days they can last anywhere from 0.0001 minutes to 10 hours. The nice thing about the car battery approach is that if things take longer you can use the battery out of your car or truck, you could even drive around the block until a weak battery is recharged. ================================== Uwe , With a normal AC system and long duration outages you mentioned an appropriately sized UPS with external batteries would do the trick (depending on the power you need) For full domestic power requirements a 2-4 kWatt petrol or diesel engine ( portable) set would probably be the best. Many of these sets have both AC and nominal 12v DC (for charging batteries) Check the Honda range of petrol engine/generator sets ,often advertised and mentioned by RACES and ARES emergency communicators and by those involved in Amateur Radio Field Day operation. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
the biggest brownout I experienced, I guess one could call that
already a black out, lastet 2 weeks and was unusual. These days they can last anywhere from 0.0001 minutes to 10 hours. The nice thing about the car battery approach is that if things take longer you can use the battery out of your car or truck, you could even drive around the block until a weak battery is recharged. ================================== Uwe , With a normal AC system and long duration outages you mentioned an appropriately sized UPS with external batteries would do the trick (depending on the power you need) For full domestic power requirements a 2-4 kWatt petrol or diesel engine ( portable) set would probably be the best. Many of these sets have both AC and nominal 12v DC (for charging batteries) Check the Honda range of petrol engine/generator sets ,often advertised and mentioned by RACES and ARES emergency communicators and by those involved in Amateur Radio Field Day operation. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
In article , Paul Keinanen
writes: On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:05:39 GMT, U wrote: Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. While a cold diesel is hard to start, the capacity of a car battery drops drastically at cold temperatures and assuming you are referring to temperatures below 0 F (not 0 C), the capacity of the "old" battery is well below nominal even in warm conditions. Yet they DO start. :-) I'm familiar with north country snow, ice, and freezing temperatures, learned to drive in such environments. Automobiles are OUTSIDE and have to take the entire change of temperatures. An emergency power backup system does NOT have to have its battery out in the cold...or hot. So even if you can get those cheaply, you may have to have two to get to the nominal capacity. The optimal float charging voltage may be different for different old batteries and this can be a problem when connecting multiple batteries in parallel. Not absolutely necessary. 12 Volt automobile batteries designed for LARGE vehicles have rather high ampere-hour ratings. Do NOT - absolutely - keep batteries in parallel without series diodes or other protections! One or more batteries in parallel can effectively "cook" one that is low in voltage. Batteries designed for car starter duty often expect some amount of vibration, which they do not get when in stationary use. Outside of bad design and poor quality control, the vehicle battery source of failure is almost always excessive vibration. When plate material is shaken off, it collects in the case bottom and can short out neighboring plates. Unless you get several batteries for free, it is not such a big bargain as it would look like. I don't know about the car battery final disposal costs, but if they are high, collecting a large number of reduced capacity old batteries might be quite expensive when they are finally disposed. At most auto parts stores in the USA, one can get a medium-size vehicle lead-acid battery for about $30 and trading in the old one. Prices vary slightly according to region and store. Factory-new batteries, such as Sears "Die-Hard" brand, are available for about twice that, no trade-in. Auto dealership-service centers will probably charge three times that (got stuck for that last year). There is a great variation in lead-acid vehicle battery cost over here so it is worth it to shop around. My eye doctors' office uses two 12 V lead-acid vehicle batteries for its servers (6 opthalmologists, 2 optometrists)...but only because they have an old UPS designed for 24 V battery back-up. Last year they moved that UPS and batteries to a concealed cabinet instead of being beside the receptionists' desk where all who could see saw it. Much better appearance. :-) By the way, a small 12 V lead-acid battery designed for motorcycles ought to be good for a heavy QRP rig. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
In article , Paul Keinanen
writes: On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:05:39 GMT, U wrote: Solar panels and all that stuff is quite expensive, but old car batteries ("old" is when it doesn't get my Diesel started in subzero temps) are not. While a cold diesel is hard to start, the capacity of a car battery drops drastically at cold temperatures and assuming you are referring to temperatures below 0 F (not 0 C), the capacity of the "old" battery is well below nominal even in warm conditions. Yet they DO start. :-) I'm familiar with north country snow, ice, and freezing temperatures, learned to drive in such environments. Automobiles are OUTSIDE and have to take the entire change of temperatures. An emergency power backup system does NOT have to have its battery out in the cold...or hot. So even if you can get those cheaply, you may have to have two to get to the nominal capacity. The optimal float charging voltage may be different for different old batteries and this can be a problem when connecting multiple batteries in parallel. Not absolutely necessary. 12 Volt automobile batteries designed for LARGE vehicles have rather high ampere-hour ratings. Do NOT - absolutely - keep batteries in parallel without series diodes or other protections! One or more batteries in parallel can effectively "cook" one that is low in voltage. Batteries designed for car starter duty often expect some amount of vibration, which they do not get when in stationary use. Outside of bad design and poor quality control, the vehicle battery source of failure is almost always excessive vibration. When plate material is shaken off, it collects in the case bottom and can short out neighboring plates. Unless you get several batteries for free, it is not such a big bargain as it would look like. I don't know about the car battery final disposal costs, but if they are high, collecting a large number of reduced capacity old batteries might be quite expensive when they are finally disposed. At most auto parts stores in the USA, one can get a medium-size vehicle lead-acid battery for about $30 and trading in the old one. Prices vary slightly according to region and store. Factory-new batteries, such as Sears "Die-Hard" brand, are available for about twice that, no trade-in. Auto dealership-service centers will probably charge three times that (got stuck for that last year). There is a great variation in lead-acid vehicle battery cost over here so it is worth it to shop around. My eye doctors' office uses two 12 V lead-acid vehicle batteries for its servers (6 opthalmologists, 2 optometrists)...but only because they have an old UPS designed for 24 V battery back-up. Last year they moved that UPS and batteries to a concealed cabinet instead of being beside the receptionists' desk where all who could see saw it. Much better appearance. :-) By the way, a small 12 V lead-acid battery designed for motorcycles ought to be good for a heavy QRP rig. Len Anderson retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person |
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On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:26:26 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote: In article , (Avery Fineman) wrote: While a cold diesel is hard to start Not if you understand the physics of the situation. Just take your XYL's Hair dryer out and blow hot air down the air intake. Your diesel will start on the first crank, first time , every time. The problem with diesels is the high compression ratio, so rotating the crank shaft is the hard part. Just monitor the signal lights in the dashboard when you try to start. Running the block heater for half an hour will help a lot, since the oil flows much more smoothly and the battery will deliver much more current (if in the engine compartment) due to the higher battery temperature. Paul OH3LWR |
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:26:26 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote: In article , (Avery Fineman) wrote: While a cold diesel is hard to start Not if you understand the physics of the situation. Just take your XYL's Hair dryer out and blow hot air down the air intake. Your diesel will start on the first crank, first time , every time. The problem with diesels is the high compression ratio, so rotating the crank shaft is the hard part. Just monitor the signal lights in the dashboard when you try to start. Running the block heater for half an hour will help a lot, since the oil flows much more smoothly and the battery will deliver much more current (if in the engine compartment) due to the higher battery temperature. Paul OH3LWR |
Well guys, thanks so much for all this info.
I couldn't access this newsgroup for a few days (server problem) and now I had a whole bunch to read. First of all in my economic environment (out here in the country) used batteries, their disposal etc. cost next to nothing. Everything else, UPS etc. does cost money. So good (except for the cold cranking problem, and I will try out the hair dryer routine, I don't discard advice from people in Alaska lightly) batteries of this type will be used. And as Avery pointed out when everything fails even a new battery is quite a bargain. I read some of the material Roy recommended and it seems that if I keep the battery mostly at constant temperature, and sitting on a cement slab which is heated one can assume relatively constant temperature I would think, I could keep the battery charged (good enough for my purpose) if I attach a voltage limited charger with 13.7 volts. A battery like that would run a DC circulator pump for days (a pump like this could use 4 amps but it is only ON when the sun is out). 73 Uwe in article , Paul Keinanen at wrote on 2/29/04 01:22: On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:26:26 GMT, Bruce in Alaska wrote: In article , (Avery Fineman) wrote: While a cold diesel is hard to start Not if you understand the physics of the situation. Just take your XYL's Hair dryer out and blow hot air down the air intake. Your diesel will start on the first crank, first time , every time. The problem with diesels is the high compression ratio, so rotating the crank shaft is the hard part. Just monitor the signal lights in the dashboard when you try to start. Running the block heater for half an hour will help a lot, since the oil flows much more smoothly and the battery will deliver much more current (if in the engine compartment) due to the higher battery temperature. Paul OH3LWR |
Well guys, thanks so much for all this info.
I couldn't access this newsgroup for a few days (server problem) and now I had a whole bunch to read. First of all in my economic environment (out here in the country) used batteries, their disposal etc. cost next to nothing. Everything else, UPS etc. does cost money. So good (except for the cold cranking problem, and I will try out the hair dryer routine, I don't discard advice from people in Alaska lightly) batteries of this type will be used. And as Avery pointed out when everything fails even a new battery is quite a bargain. I read some of the material Roy recommended and it seems that if I keep the battery mostly at constant temperature, and sitting on a cement slab which is heated one can assume relatively constant temperature I would think, I could keep the battery charged (good enough for my purpose) if I attach a voltage limited charger with 13.7 volts. A battery like that would run a DC circulator pump for days (a pump like this could use 4 amps but it is only ON when the sun is out). 73 Uwe in article , Paul Keinanen at wrote on 2/29/04 01:22: On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:26:26 GMT, Bruce in Alaska wrote: In article , (Avery Fineman) wrote: While a cold diesel is hard to start Not if you understand the physics of the situation. Just take your XYL's Hair dryer out and blow hot air down the air intake. Your diesel will start on the first crank, first time , every time. The problem with diesels is the high compression ratio, so rotating the crank shaft is the hard part. Just monitor the signal lights in the dashboard when you try to start. Running the block heater for half an hour will help a lot, since the oil flows much more smoothly and the battery will deliver much more current (if in the engine compartment) due to the higher battery temperature. Paul OH3LWR |
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