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DDS building blocks....
This is a bit, long but bear with me it is hombrew releated.
I'm one of the principals in a company called NetBurner. We build Network enabled CPU modules etc... The company has some core capabilities, PCB design, Fab, SMT Assembly (BGA, 0402's ) , Order processing, order fufilment UPS shipping etc... As a ham and an engineer that likes to build things I'm frustrated with some of todays finer pitch SMT technology. I've often contemplated using the business to come out with a line of "Hobby" oriented PCB's Things like an ADI high end DDS Some of the cool direct conversion mixer IC's ... Simple switching power supplies... Small uP boards (AVR etc...) RS-232 level shifters.... MOSFET full bridge motor drive. ADC's DAC's Audio amp chips... and so on.... I'm not looking to make any $ on the hobby product line, but I'm not looking to loose any $ either. As a first pass we would build things that I would find fun to play with. The boards would be fully assembled, with a minimal implmentation of what ever function they are supposed to do. Nothing fancy, nothing extra just modules hobbiests can play with. Support would be limited to Schematics and E-Mail. Since almost all sales would be 1's and 2's cost would be about 4X the 100pc component cost. Would one sell any of this stuff? What sort of modules would you personally buy? Paul (KL7JG) |
Paul
I think the NJQRP DDS Daughtercard is a good model for something that would sell. Indeed, NJQRP has had to take a break on making them because the volunteers who actually kit them are totally fried from assembling literally thousands of the things. NJQRP and AmQRP have had remarkable success with their kits lately, not just the daughtercard. The PIC-EL had to be stopped after only a couple of months, again, because they neede a break more than anything else. Ditto with some others. I'm not sure what the magic is, but the daughtercard is a component in a number of other kits, as well as providing a simple module to solve a hard problem for folks homebrewing their own stuff. Of course, they have the unfair advantage of free labor, but on the flip side, they don't have the access to volume discounts that someone who was making a lot of other stuff might have. With high quality circuit boards, I think the TSSOPs are within reach of most amateurs. Most of us, however, can't make circuit boards with that sort of feature size. The appearance of even more frustrating packages like BGAs is worrisome, though. One of the challenges, of course, is that with these newer, more complex circuits, amateurs don't become comfortable with them until well into the product lifecycle. By the time the amateur community latches on to a part, it is already obsolete. This can lead to a pretty short life for some of these things. Some kits like the Small Wonder Labs DSW had to be pulled because the parts went out of availability almost before they appeared. A potential way around this might be to package functionally complete modules that folks could use without really having to get to know the innards. This eliminates things like the synthesizers that really need microcontrollers to operate, thus requiring builders to get familiar with them, but perhaps something like a mixer, IF strip, etc. might work. A lot of the builders these days are QRPers, and they are always looking for reducing size. I would think something like the FAR Circuits 9850 board, but entirely surface mount, might be a hit. You would need to provide some sort of ICSP port for this to play, however. And the 9850 has to be well along in its lifecycle. Personally, I would like to see some sort of quadrature DDS along with a Tayloe mixer pair. Another angle you might pursue is using AmQRP to market the things. AmQRP is having trouble keeping up with the demand for their stuff. They really do seem to have figured out what sells and what the price point is. What they haven't figured out is how to assemble the kits in the sorts of volume they are seeing. I don't know how comfortable they would be with that sort of model, but given your production capability, and their access to the market, it seems to make sense. ... wrote in message ... This is a bit, long but bear with me it is hombrew releated. I'm one of the principals in a company called NetBurner. We build Network enabled CPU modules etc... The company has some core capabilities, PCB design, Fab, SMT Assembly (BGA, 0402's ) , Order processing, order fufilment UPS shipping etc... As a ham and an engineer that likes to build things I'm frustrated with some of todays finer pitch SMT technology. I've often contemplated using the business to come out with a line of "Hobby" oriented PCB's Things like an ADI high end DDS Some of the cool direct conversion mixer IC's ... Simple switching power supplies... Small uP boards (AVR etc...) RS-232 level shifters.... MOSFET full bridge motor drive. ADC's DAC's Audio amp chips... and so on.... I'm not looking to make any $ on the hobby product line, but I'm not looking to loose any $ either. As a first pass we would build things that I would find fun to play with. The boards would be fully assembled, with a minimal implmentation of what ever function they are supposed to do. Nothing fancy, nothing extra just modules hobbiests can play with. Support would be limited to Schematics and E-Mail. Since almost all sales would be 1's and 2's cost would be about 4X the 100pc component cost. Would one sell any of this stuff? What sort of modules would you personally buy? Paul (KL7JG) |
Paul
I think the NJQRP DDS Daughtercard is a good model for something that would sell. Indeed, NJQRP has had to take a break on making them because the volunteers who actually kit them are totally fried from assembling literally thousands of the things. NJQRP and AmQRP have had remarkable success with their kits lately, not just the daughtercard. The PIC-EL had to be stopped after only a couple of months, again, because they neede a break more than anything else. Ditto with some others. I'm not sure what the magic is, but the daughtercard is a component in a number of other kits, as well as providing a simple module to solve a hard problem for folks homebrewing their own stuff. Of course, they have the unfair advantage of free labor, but on the flip side, they don't have the access to volume discounts that someone who was making a lot of other stuff might have. With high quality circuit boards, I think the TSSOPs are within reach of most amateurs. Most of us, however, can't make circuit boards with that sort of feature size. The appearance of even more frustrating packages like BGAs is worrisome, though. One of the challenges, of course, is that with these newer, more complex circuits, amateurs don't become comfortable with them until well into the product lifecycle. By the time the amateur community latches on to a part, it is already obsolete. This can lead to a pretty short life for some of these things. Some kits like the Small Wonder Labs DSW had to be pulled because the parts went out of availability almost before they appeared. A potential way around this might be to package functionally complete modules that folks could use without really having to get to know the innards. This eliminates things like the synthesizers that really need microcontrollers to operate, thus requiring builders to get familiar with them, but perhaps something like a mixer, IF strip, etc. might work. A lot of the builders these days are QRPers, and they are always looking for reducing size. I would think something like the FAR Circuits 9850 board, but entirely surface mount, might be a hit. You would need to provide some sort of ICSP port for this to play, however. And the 9850 has to be well along in its lifecycle. Personally, I would like to see some sort of quadrature DDS along with a Tayloe mixer pair. Another angle you might pursue is using AmQRP to market the things. AmQRP is having trouble keeping up with the demand for their stuff. They really do seem to have figured out what sells and what the price point is. What they haven't figured out is how to assemble the kits in the sorts of volume they are seeing. I don't know how comfortable they would be with that sort of model, but given your production capability, and their access to the market, it seems to make sense. ... wrote in message ... This is a bit, long but bear with me it is hombrew releated. I'm one of the principals in a company called NetBurner. We build Network enabled CPU modules etc... The company has some core capabilities, PCB design, Fab, SMT Assembly (BGA, 0402's ) , Order processing, order fufilment UPS shipping etc... As a ham and an engineer that likes to build things I'm frustrated with some of todays finer pitch SMT technology. I've often contemplated using the business to come out with a line of "Hobby" oriented PCB's Things like an ADI high end DDS Some of the cool direct conversion mixer IC's ... Simple switching power supplies... Small uP boards (AVR etc...) RS-232 level shifters.... MOSFET full bridge motor drive. ADC's DAC's Audio amp chips... and so on.... I'm not looking to make any $ on the hobby product line, but I'm not looking to loose any $ either. As a first pass we would build things that I would find fun to play with. The boards would be fully assembled, with a minimal implmentation of what ever function they are supposed to do. Nothing fancy, nothing extra just modules hobbiests can play with. Support would be limited to Schematics and E-Mail. Since almost all sales would be 1's and 2's cost would be about 4X the 100pc component cost. Would one sell any of this stuff? What sort of modules would you personally buy? Paul (KL7JG) |
"xpyttl" wrote in message ... Another angle you might pursue is using AmQRP to market the things. AmQRP is having trouble keeping up with the demand for their stuff. They really do seem to have figured out what sells and what the price point is. What they haven't figured out is how to assemble the kits in the sorts of volume they are seeing. I don't know how comfortable they would be with that sort of model, but given your production capability, and their access to the market, it seems to make sense. A very well-reasoned reply. AmQRP has been the victim of its own success. Based on the number of sales, I'm surprised no commercial vendor has offered to PIC up the job. The prices would go up, of course, but there is still a large demand, and many QRPers (not this one!) seem to have deep pockets. Analog has been pretty well beaten to death in the QRP domain, and there will be a growing market for products that are closer to the state-of-the-art. More and more new rigs are coming with VHF/UHF weak-signal capability as standard. While not directly DDS-related, I think there may be a nascent market in inexpensive narrow-band VHF/UHF transverters and transceivers, too. What's available now is excellent, but priced accordingly. We have to get more activity going on those bands or we're going to lose them. 73, "PM" |
"xpyttl" wrote in message ... Another angle you might pursue is using AmQRP to market the things. AmQRP is having trouble keeping up with the demand for their stuff. They really do seem to have figured out what sells and what the price point is. What they haven't figured out is how to assemble the kits in the sorts of volume they are seeing. I don't know how comfortable they would be with that sort of model, but given your production capability, and their access to the market, it seems to make sense. A very well-reasoned reply. AmQRP has been the victim of its own success. Based on the number of sales, I'm surprised no commercial vendor has offered to PIC up the job. The prices would go up, of course, but there is still a large demand, and many QRPers (not this one!) seem to have deep pockets. Analog has been pretty well beaten to death in the QRP domain, and there will be a growing market for products that are closer to the state-of-the-art. More and more new rigs are coming with VHF/UHF weak-signal capability as standard. While not directly DDS-related, I think there may be a nascent market in inexpensive narrow-band VHF/UHF transverters and transceivers, too. What's available now is excellent, but priced accordingly. We have to get more activity going on those bands or we're going to lose them. 73, "PM" |
xpyttl wrote:
Paul I think the NJQRP DDS Daughtercard is a good model for something that would sell. Indeed, NJQRP has had to take a break on making them because the volunteers who actually kit them are totally fried from assembling literally thousands of the things. NJQRP and AmQRP have had remarkable success with their kits lately, not just the daughtercard. The PIC-EL had to be stopped after only a couple of months, again, because they neede a break more than anything else. Ditto with some others. I'm not sure what the magic is, but the daughtercard is a component in a number of other kits, as well as providing a simple module to solve a hard problem for folks homebrewing their own stuff. Of course, they have the unfair advantage of free labor, but on the flip side, they don't have the access to volume discounts that someone who was making a lot of other stuff might have. With high quality circuit boards, I think the TSSOPs are within reach of most amateurs. Most of us, however, can't make circuit boards with that sort of feature size. The appearance of even more frustrating packages like BGAs is worrisome, though. One of the challenges, of course, is that with these newer, more complex circuits, amateurs don't become comfortable with them until well into the product lifecycle. By the time the amateur community latches on to a part, it is already obsolete. This can lead to a pretty short life for some of these things. Some kits like the Small Wonder Labs DSW had to be pulled because the parts went out of availability almost before they appeared. A potential way around this might be to package functionally complete modules that folks could use without really having to get to know the innards. This eliminates things like the synthesizers that really need microcontrollers to operate, thus requiring builders to get familiar with them, but perhaps something like a mixer, IF strip, etc. might work. A lot of the builders these days are QRPers, and they are always looking for reducing size. I would think something like the FAR Circuits 9850 board, but entirely surface mount, might be a hit. You would need to provide some sort of ICSP port for this to play, however. And the 9850 has to be well along in its lifecycle. Personally, I would like to see some sort of quadrature DDS along with a Tayloe mixer pair. The 9850 is still a listed part, but the latter ones in the 9850 series with the built in clock multiplier (almost a pin for pin replacement) are a better bet. The 9950 series are current state of the art and with their 400mhz clocks and 14bit d/a's are cleaner too. I'd like to see a kit or circuit board based on the 9954. BTW you can get these as samples for just a little begging. Analog Devices likes to send samples to hams. |
xpyttl wrote:
Paul I think the NJQRP DDS Daughtercard is a good model for something that would sell. Indeed, NJQRP has had to take a break on making them because the volunteers who actually kit them are totally fried from assembling literally thousands of the things. NJQRP and AmQRP have had remarkable success with their kits lately, not just the daughtercard. The PIC-EL had to be stopped after only a couple of months, again, because they neede a break more than anything else. Ditto with some others. I'm not sure what the magic is, but the daughtercard is a component in a number of other kits, as well as providing a simple module to solve a hard problem for folks homebrewing their own stuff. Of course, they have the unfair advantage of free labor, but on the flip side, they don't have the access to volume discounts that someone who was making a lot of other stuff might have. With high quality circuit boards, I think the TSSOPs are within reach of most amateurs. Most of us, however, can't make circuit boards with that sort of feature size. The appearance of even more frustrating packages like BGAs is worrisome, though. One of the challenges, of course, is that with these newer, more complex circuits, amateurs don't become comfortable with them until well into the product lifecycle. By the time the amateur community latches on to a part, it is already obsolete. This can lead to a pretty short life for some of these things. Some kits like the Small Wonder Labs DSW had to be pulled because the parts went out of availability almost before they appeared. A potential way around this might be to package functionally complete modules that folks could use without really having to get to know the innards. This eliminates things like the synthesizers that really need microcontrollers to operate, thus requiring builders to get familiar with them, but perhaps something like a mixer, IF strip, etc. might work. A lot of the builders these days are QRPers, and they are always looking for reducing size. I would think something like the FAR Circuits 9850 board, but entirely surface mount, might be a hit. You would need to provide some sort of ICSP port for this to play, however. And the 9850 has to be well along in its lifecycle. Personally, I would like to see some sort of quadrature DDS along with a Tayloe mixer pair. The 9850 is still a listed part, but the latter ones in the 9850 series with the built in clock multiplier (almost a pin for pin replacement) are a better bet. The 9950 series are current state of the art and with their 400mhz clocks and 14bit d/a's are cleaner too. I'd like to see a kit or circuit board based on the 9954. BTW you can get these as samples for just a little begging. Analog Devices likes to send samples to hams. |
Yeah sure
I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples Richard I'd like to see a kit or circuit board based on the 9954. BTW you can get these as samples for just a little begging. Analog Devices likes to send samples to hams. |
Yeah sure
I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples Richard I'd like to see a kit or circuit board based on the 9954. BTW you can get these as samples for just a little begging. Analog Devices likes to send samples to hams. |
Yeah sure
I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples ==================================== AD sends free samples when you order through the web ,destined for a US address I did that through a relative in LA who send the samples privately to me here in Scotland. However a ham working for AD -UK commented on this NG that AD-UK would be sympathetic to requests for free samples ,but I haven't tried that route as yet. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Yeah sure
I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples ==================================== AD sends free samples when you order through the web ,destined for a US address I did that through a relative in LA who send the samples privately to me here in Scotland. However a ham working for AD -UK commented on this NG that AD-UK would be sympathetic to requests for free samples ,but I haven't tried that route as yet. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH |
Highland Ham wrote:
Yeah sure I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples ==================================== AD sends free samples when you order through the web ,destined for a US address I did that through a relative in LA who send the samples privately to me here in Scotland. However a ham working for AD -UK commented on this NG that AD-UK would be sympathetic to requests for free samples ,but I haven't tried that route as yet. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH If you go to their website and sign up for their mailing list, you will get a 'bingo card' every few months that you can send back for free samples and info on new products, which often includes DDS circuits, as well as A/D, D/A, and op amps. I have also got samples of these, and some of their analog switches, wide band amps, and mixer circuits. BTW they also make an interresting driver amp for ADSL that looks like a low power linear rf final amp good for a QRP rig. |
Highland Ham wrote:
Yeah sure I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples ==================================== AD sends free samples when you order through the web ,destined for a US address I did that through a relative in LA who send the samples privately to me here in Scotland. However a ham working for AD -UK commented on this NG that AD-UK would be sympathetic to requests for free samples ,but I haven't tried that route as yet. Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH If you go to their website and sign up for their mailing list, you will get a 'bingo card' every few months that you can send back for free samples and info on new products, which often includes DDS circuits, as well as A/D, D/A, and op amps. I have also got samples of these, and some of their analog switches, wide band amps, and mixer circuits. BTW they also make an interresting driver amp for ADSL that looks like a low power linear rf final amp good for a QRP rig. |
In message 8rbic.539$yd1.296@newsfe1-win, Highland Ham
writes Yeah sure I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples ==================================== AD sends free samples when you order through the web ,destined for a US address I did that through a relative in LA who send the samples privately to me here in Scotland. However a ham working for AD -UK commented on this NG that AD-UK would be sympathetic to requests for free samples ,but I haven't tried that route as yet. Worked for me over the web. Shipped out of Holland to the UK by courier! Duncan G4ELJ -- Duncan Clark |
In message 8rbic.539$yd1.296@newsfe1-win, Highland Ham
writes Yeah sure I had to go my local supplier when I asked for samples ==================================== AD sends free samples when you order through the web ,destined for a US address I did that through a relative in LA who send the samples privately to me here in Scotland. However a ham working for AD -UK commented on this NG that AD-UK would be sympathetic to requests for free samples ,but I haven't tried that route as yet. Worked for me over the web. Shipped out of Holland to the UK by courier! Duncan G4ELJ -- Duncan Clark |
wrote in message ... This is a bit, long but bear with me it is hombrew releated. I'm one of the principals in a company called NetBurner. We build Network enabled CPU modules etc... The company has some core capabilities, PCB design, Fab, SMT Assembly (BGA, 0402's ) , Order processing, order fufilment UPS shipping etc... As a ham and an engineer that likes to build things I'm frustrated with some of todays finer pitch SMT technology. I've often contemplated using the business to come out with a line of "Hobby" oriented PCB's Things like an ADI high end DDS Some of the cool direct conversion mixer IC's ... Simple switching power supplies... Small uP boards (AVR etc...) RS-232 level shifters.... MOSFET full bridge motor drive. ADC's DAC's Audio amp chips... and so on.... I'm not looking to make any $ on the hobby product line, but I'm not looking to loose any $ either. As a first pass we would build things that I would find fun to play with. The boards would be fully assembled, with a minimal implmentation of what ever function they are supposed to do. Nothing fancy, nothing extra just modules hobbiests can play with. Support would be limited to Schematics and E-Mail. Since almost all sales would be 1's and 2's cost would be about 4X the 100pc component cost. Would one sell any of this stuff? What sort of modules would you personally buy? Paul (KL7JG) I recommend against short-changing yourself, and your Customers. This will take up your time, and if you don't charge enough, you will eventually walk away, leaving your Customers stranded. Be fair to yourself and your Customers by charging enough to compensate for your time. |
wrote in message ... This is a bit, long but bear with me it is hombrew releated. I'm one of the principals in a company called NetBurner. We build Network enabled CPU modules etc... The company has some core capabilities, PCB design, Fab, SMT Assembly (BGA, 0402's ) , Order processing, order fufilment UPS shipping etc... As a ham and an engineer that likes to build things I'm frustrated with some of todays finer pitch SMT technology. I've often contemplated using the business to come out with a line of "Hobby" oriented PCB's Things like an ADI high end DDS Some of the cool direct conversion mixer IC's ... Simple switching power supplies... Small uP boards (AVR etc...) RS-232 level shifters.... MOSFET full bridge motor drive. ADC's DAC's Audio amp chips... and so on.... I'm not looking to make any $ on the hobby product line, but I'm not looking to loose any $ either. As a first pass we would build things that I would find fun to play with. The boards would be fully assembled, with a minimal implmentation of what ever function they are supposed to do. Nothing fancy, nothing extra just modules hobbiests can play with. Support would be limited to Schematics and E-Mail. Since almost all sales would be 1's and 2's cost would be about 4X the 100pc component cost. Would one sell any of this stuff? What sort of modules would you personally buy? Paul (KL7JG) I recommend against short-changing yourself, and your Customers. This will take up your time, and if you don't charge enough, you will eventually walk away, leaving your Customers stranded. Be fair to yourself and your Customers by charging enough to compensate for your time. |
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