Rusty bolt effect
 

Hi all,
many years ago I read a very good article on the "rusty bolt effect"
that went into great detail, even as far as warning about corroding coke
cans in the undergrowth. I now can not find my copy of this. I don't
suppose any one can point me in the direction of any good descriptions
of this? I've spent time Googling and have come up with a lot of info
but I'm still looking for something I can show to a non technical person
and hope they can understand the fundamentals.
Any ideas??????
--
Bill

er... these articles didn't happen to originate around April 1 did they?

-_Rick

Bill wrote:

Hi all,
many years ago I read a very good article on the "rusty bolt effect"
that went into great detail, even as far as warning about corroding coke
cans in the undergrowth. I now can not find my copy of this. I don't
suppose any one can point me in the direction of any good descriptions
of this? I've spent time Googling and have come up with a lot of info
but I'm still looking for something I can show to a non technical person
and hope they can understand the fundamentals.
Any ideas??????
--
Bill

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 05:17:47 GMT, Rick Frazier
wrote:

er... these articles didn't happen to originate around April 1 did they?

Bill wrote:

many years ago I read a very good article on the "rusty bolt effect"
that went into great detail, even as far as warning about corroding coke
cans in the undergrowth.

The rusty bolt (intermodulation) problem can be quite severe e.g. with
repeaters in a commercial site with lots of high power transmitters.

Are the coke cans made of iron ?
Anyway, there would have to be a metal to metal contact that has
oxidised in order to have this kind of junction problem, so I do not
understand how thrown away cans could normally create such junctions.

Paul OH3LWR

In message , Rick Frazier
writes
er... these articles didn't happen to originate around April 1 did they?


Errrrrrr no they didn't.

--
Bill

In message , Paul Keinanen
writes
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 05:17:47 GMT, Rick Frazier
wrote:

er... these articles didn't happen to originate around April 1 did they?

Bill wrote:

many years ago I read a very good article on the "rusty bolt effect"
that went into great detail, even as far as warning about corroding coke
cans in the undergrowth.

The rusty bolt (intermodulation) problem can be quite severe e.g. with
repeaters in a commercial site with lots of high power transmitters.

Are the coke cans made of iron ?
Anyway, there would have to be a metal to metal contact that has
oxidised in order to have this kind of junction problem, so I do not
understand how thrown away cans could normally create such junctions.
It was maybe 20 years ago that I read this article so I am a little
vague on the details but I seem to recall that it was a build up of
coke, drinks, cans that was a problem. So yes it would be metal to metal
contact.
Another problem it highlighted was the effect of guy ropes. Where a guy
rope is cleated and anchored there is often a short piece of the rope
left over that runs either beside the guy or just hangs there. Not a
problem if it is rope but if it is a wire guy then you can have a 1/4
wave aerial immediately attached to a corroded junction.



Paul OH3LWR


--
Bill

"Paul Keinanen" wrote in message
...
Are the coke cans made of iron ?
Anyway, there would have to be a metal to metal contact that has
oxidised in order to have this kind of junction problem, so I do not
understand how thrown away cans could normally create such junctions.

Cans are made of aluminum now, but 30 years ago they were steel. Back then
it took some hand strength to crush a can, now a little girl can do it.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Hi all,
many years ago I read a very good article on the "rusty bolt effect"
that went into great detail, even as far as warning about corroding coke
cans in the undergrowth. I now can not find my copy of this. I don't
suppose any one can point me in the direction of any good descriptions
of this? I've spent time Googling and have come up with a lot of info
but I'm still looking for something I can show to a non technical person
and hope they can understand the fundamentals.
Any ideas??????
--
Bill

I've told this B4, but... It doesn't always have to be IM. There's what I
dubbed the "screwdriver effect". Near (within 10 feet or so) a transmitting
antenna (2 Meters works great) and receiver on a nearby frequency, rub a
screwdriver, or other metal object onto another one.

The Apollo space program used ships at sea for communications. They had
high power HF equipment (many kW) which interfered with the radar systems
(multi-GHz). The deck railing chain sections used for removable sections
were found to be causing the problem. The links move with wind and ship
motion causing intermittent and noisy contacts which produced noise that
modulated the HF RF field causing sidebands up into the GHz regions.

I observed similar on early car telephones @ 150 KHz. Noisy hood, bumper or
trunk (or motorcycle seat spring) junctions caused noise that modulated the
transmitter's radiated field which extended into the Rx band and
desensitized the receiver. I developed a probe to sniff out the noise
sources and bond (make solid) the connections.
One of the local repeaters has a similar problem when it gets windy.
Everyone has scratchy noise on their signal, regardless of signal strength.
Nobody wants to climb the tower and check every other installation and bolt
for tightness or whatever...
--
Steve N, K,9;d, c. i My email has no u's.antenna installation....

Dissimilar metals can rectify, if not very conductive anymore, then you get
some harmonics, or generate IM.

Can only find this from RSGB TVI book


13. The rusty-bolt effect

High-pass filters (at the television receiver aerial terminals) and low-pass
filters (at the transmitter) do not always cure TVI problems. Substitution
of other TV sets can generally show if the cause is a faulty transmitter or
faulty television receiver, but if substitution shows the interference
effect to continue, then the cause becomes more difficult to establish. The
''rusty-bolt" effect is one of the hardest of all these TVI causes to
locate.
If a known clean transmitter is causing interference to a known good
television receiver, then an external cause can be suspected. Perhaps the
transmitter signal is being picked up by a local conductor such as a
clothes-line or fence-wire. A rusty or corroded joint in this conductor may
be acting as a diode. Harmonics of the transmitter signal could be produced
by this spurious diode detector and re-radiated. These harmonics can be
received by the television receiver and cause interference to the picture or
sound.
Such interference may vary with the weather. It may be intermittent and be
affected by wind as well as rain.
Typical offenders are metal-tile roofs, metal gutters and down pipes. A
heavy blow with a hammer may sometimes correct an offending joint. Applying
water from a hose can sometimes change or remove the interfering source and
help to identify the culprit.
Either bonding or insulating the offending joint may solve the problem. More
than one joint may be causing trouble. Bonding is generally impossible with
metal tiles. Shifting the television aerial away from the offending harmonic
source or sources is a more practical cure. A bonded wire mesh over the
offending joint may be considered. It is unlikely that a complete metal roof
will have to be bonded to effect a cure.
Bonding suspect joints can sometimes produce problems. With bonded
conductors, a better signal pick-up may result, larger radio frequency
currents may flow, and the problem may shift to another joint that was
hitherto not suspect. Insulating the suspect joints may sometimes be more
effective. A change to nylon guy-wires may sometimes eliminate problem
joints.
The accepted rule is that if the offending joints are on the amateur's
property, the problem is his. If the offending joints are on the property of
the television set's owner the problem is his, Unfortunately, few set-owners
understand this problem and so the radio amateur should offer technical
assistance and advice. Re-siting the television set aerial or the
transmitting aerial is often the only practicable cure.

"stoploss" wrote in message
...
Dissimilar metals can rectify, if not very conductive anymore, then you
get
some harmonics, or generate IM.

Re rusty connections!
Apparently there was a situation in UK many years ago where an electric
heater with the old fashioned heating 'coils' was picking up radio waves.
Also a poor connection became a rectifying junction (something like an old
time crystal detector) and the metal of the heater became a sound box.
When some interference problems were being investigated the elderly lady who
owned the heater was asked why she hadn't mentioned or complained about it.
Her reply was that she enjoyed hearing the voices and the music that came
from the heater!
Cheers. Terry.