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Identification Question
I was considering another question and in a bout of laziness I figured I'd ask the group and not spend a few hours reading Part 97 trying to figure it out... I use my assigned call sign to ID myself when operating my station, but what if I'm operating a station that's not mine? Can I just provide my call as identification or do I need to include the station's call too? What FCC rule(s) speak to this situation? I'm guessing that I have to provide the ID of the station I'm operating and my call being the control operator but what is the accepted format for that for the various modes: CW, Phone, Etc? -= bob =- |
Identification Question
"KC4UAI" wrote in message ... I was considering another question and in a bout of laziness I figured I'd ask the group and not spend a few hours reading Part 97 trying to figure it out... I use my assigned call sign to ID myself when operating my station, but what if I'm operating a station that's not mine? Can I just provide my call as identification or do I need to include the station's call too? What FCC rule(s) speak to this situation? I'm guessing that I have to provide the ID of the station I'm operating and my call being the control operator but what is the accepted format for that for the various modes: CW, Phone, Etc? -= bob =- SEE ARRL PAGE http://www.arrl.org/hrlm/additions/6-4-5.pdf EXPLAINS IT ALL Lamont |
Identification Question
KC4UAI wrote:
I was considering another question and in a bout of laziness I figured I'd ask the group and not spend a few hours reading Part 97 trying to figure it out... I use my assigned call sign to ID myself when operating my station, but what if I'm operating a station that's not mine? Can I just provide my call as identification or do I need to include the station's call too? This answer applies to US hams, as some other countries have other rules. Our license have two parts, a Operator Privileges and a Station Privileges. In principle, the station is licensed, not the operator. This probably has to do with remote station operations. However, it often leads to some confusion, such as an interpretation that an Amateur who has no station does not have a license. Another quandary can happen if say a friend hands you his HT at say a Public service event. Do you ID with his call? His call. What about ownership of the station? If I check out a rig for my club that was donated to the club, that will be for sale, do I have to ID using a club call sign? Okay, enough of that!! In reality, we are identified by our call signs. If someone refers to N3LI, I'm sure to say "wassup"? Every station I operate with the exception of Field day and contesting at the clubhouse, I ID as my call. What FCC rule(s) speak to this situation? I spent quite a while looking for just that, and there is no clear rule. There are some rules regarding operating another station when a person is operating outside their regular privileges, and upgraded callsigns. but precious little regarding the station vs operator issue. - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
Identification Question
The relevant section is §97.119 Station identification. The call of the
station must be used, "an indicator consisting of the call sign assigned to the control operator's station must be included after the call sign." However, I don't think the FCC prohibits one amateur from lending his equipment to another. So you could take the position that the station owner has lent his equipment to you, and during the loan, it is your station, so you only have to use your call sign. "KC4UAI" wrote in message ... ... I use my assigned call sign to ID myself when operating my station, but what if I'm operating a station that's not mine? Can I just provide my call as identification or do I need to include the station's call too?... |
Identification Question
In article ,
Geber wrote: The relevant section is §97.119 Station identification. The call of the station must be used, "an indicator consisting of the call sign assigned to the control operator's station must be included after the call sign." As I read it, that paragraph (3) applies only when the operator's license class exceeds that of the station licensee... and most seem to feel that it's required only if you're transmitting beyond the privilege level allowed by the station license. However, I don't think the FCC prohibits one amateur from lending his equipment to another. So you could take the position that the station owner has lent his equipment to you, and during the loan, it is your station, so you only have to use your call sign. That seems to be the usual convention. There seem to be several common practices, which I believe (speaking *not* as a lawyer) fall within the scope of what the FCC considers a reasonable interpretation of the rules: - Use your own station callsign (the "borrowing/lending equipment" concept). This makes you fully responsible for the transmission. - Use the station's own callsign, only. This seems to be legitimate if you're operating with the station owner's permission, and are transmitting within the privileges covered by the station's licensee or trustee (and your own, if you don't have a higher- privileged control operator present). This is a common approach used for transmitting at a club station... you use the club station ID. - Use the station's callsign, slash, your own callsign. You'd do this if you want to actually ID the location you're transmitting from (e.g. a club station or that of a friend), but you're transmitting on frequencies which are allowed by your own operator class but not by the station licensee's class. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
Identification Question
"KC4UAI" wrote in message : : I was considering another question and in a bout of : : laziness I figured I'd ask the group and not spend a : : few hours reading Part 97 trying to figure it out... : : : : I use my assigned call sign to ID myself when operating : : my station, but what if I'm operating a station that's : : not mine? Can I just provide my call as identification : : or do I need to include the station's call too? : : : : What FCC rule(s) speak to this situation? : : : : I'm guessing that I have to provide the ID of the : : station I'm operating and my call being the control : : operator but what is the accepted format for that for : : the various modes: CW, Phone, Etc? : : : : -= bob =- I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you saying that if you visit someone else's shack and operate their equipment, you should use their callsign..? Here in the UK the convention is to use your own call with the suffix /A (alternative address) i.e. "this is G6URP/A operating from the QTH of G3USA". If however G3USA was licensed to use bands/modes I was not, I could operate on them under his callsign, but giving my own call as the operator. In this case I would complete G3USA's log not my own. 73 Ivor G6URP |
Identification Question
On Dec 13, 4:33 pm, "The Shadow" wrote:
"KC4UAI" wrote in message I'm guessing that I have to provide the ID of the station I'm operating and my call being the control operator but what is the accepted format for that for the various modes: CW, Phone, Etc? -= bob =- SEE ARRL PAGEhttp://www.arrl.org/hrlm/additions/6-4-5.pdf EXPLAINS IT ALL Yes, It sure does. Common sense seems to rule the day if you ask me. This question came up in a discussion about what the ID requirements where for operating the club station here at work. I was told that all I needed to do was use my own call, but be sure to log my activities in the station log. I guess they work under the "you are borrowing the station" when you operate it, but something just didn't sit right with me. If I'm required to log my activities into the station log but only identify with my call something didn't make sense and it didn't make sense to me just to use the club call when I'm using the station for my own thing. So, here's my "let's be totally careful" approach given the discussions I've seen so far.. In all cases, I will log my activities into the club station's log because the station trustee has requested that I do so. For identification I will: IF, I'm just operating the club station on my own and not participating in an officially sanctioned club activity I will identify with *both* calls, the club first followed by mine. IF, I'm operating the station during an officially sanctioned club event, I will identify with the club call only and log that I was the control operator. That sounds pretty safe to me based on what I've seen thus far. (At least here in the USA..) -= bob =- |
Identification Question
In article ,
KC4UAI wrote: For identification I will: IF, I'm just operating the club station on my own and not participating in an officially sanctioned club activity I will identify with *both* calls, the club first followed by mine. That's fine. Perhaps overly-conservative, but it seems like a fine operating practice. IF, I'm operating the station during an officially sanctioned club event, I will identify with the club call only and log that I was the control operator. That's safe, I think, *if* the club's trustee has a license class equal to or greater than yours. If not, then if you're transmitting in frequencies allowed by your privileges but not by the trustee's, then you *must* take the more-conservative approach of transmitting the club station's call, stroke, your own callsign. Otherwise, you'd end up with a situation in which listeners (possibly including the OOs or the FCC) would hear an ID in (e.g.) the Extra portion of the band, from a callsign belonging to a station which has (e.g.) only General privileges. That could result in a letter from Mr. Hollingsworth to the trustee, stating that the station had been transmitting outside of its license privileges and asking for copies of all of the logs, etc. That's the sort of situation best dealt with by prevention :-) -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
Identification Question
On Dec 14, 4:35 pm, (Dave Platt) wrote:
In article , KC4UAI wrote: That's safe, I think, *if* the club's trustee has a license class equal to or greater than yours. Yea, I failed to mention that the station trustee and I are both the same license class. Under no circumstances can one operate outside of his/her privileges while acting as the control operator and I wouldn't want to give the impression that one can just ID with the club ID and consider themselves an "extra for the day" by virtue of being in the club shack. Now if somebody is there with them they can extend their operations to include the highest licensed ham present, but the highest license present then becomes the control operator and communications outside of one's privileges becomes third party communications if I'm reading the rules correctly. I think I'm going to put a section in the operating manual for the shack that explains all this. Just to keep the raft of newbies coming in from making any mistakes that brings us to the attention of the FCC enforcement guys. -= bob =- KC4UAI |
Identification Question
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:43:29 EST, KC4UAI wrote:
I was told that all I needed to do was use my own call, but be sure to log my activities in the station log. I guess they work under the "you are borrowing the station" when you operate it, but something just didn't sit right with me. I'm the trustee of several club stations (all under one call sign) and NOBODY "borrows" those stations! Next time ask a communications attorney who specializes in interpreting FCC rules. ggg -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane ARRL Volunteer Counsel email: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
Identification Question
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:34:12 EST, Michael Coslo wrote:
In reality, we are identified by our call signs. If someone refers to N3LI, I'm sure to say "wassup"? Every station I operate with the exception of Field day and contesting at the clubhouse, I ID as my call. Really, Mike! The station is IDed with the station licensee's call sign. The only time that the call sign of the operator is used is if the privileges of the op are greater than the privileges of the station licensee and the op is exercising those privileges. This is independent of who owns the radio. That's the hardest thing that I have to teach to ops using our club facilities and fixed facilities at ARES/RACES served agencies which hold individual call signs. Don't make me look it up and print it -- I'll bill you for the research! ggg -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
Identification Question
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:35:33 -0500, Phil Kane wrote:
Really, Mike! The station is IDed with the station licensee's call sign. The only time that the call sign of the operator is used is if the privileges of the op are greater than the privileges of the station licensee and the op is exercising those privileges. This is independen t of who owns the radio. That's the hardest thing that I have to teach to ops using our club facilities and fixed facilities at ARES/RACES served agencies which hol d individual call signs. Hi Phil, I know what you are saying, but there is a world of difference between the seemingly clear rule and the reality. Our club has 3 call signs. Which do I use? I've loaned equipment to the club to use for field day. Must we operate under my call sign, and don't forget the other equipment is the club's, or might be other equipment loans. Some times there could be so much discussion about what the "proper" call sign is to use that people might just pack up and go home. -73 de Mike N3LI - |
Identification Question
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 22:23:05 EST, Mike Coslo
wrote: I know what you are saying, but there is a world of difference between the seemingly clear rule and the reality. Our club has 3 call signs. Which do I use? Are you sure that all three have the same club name? The station trustee is responsible for telling the operator(s) what the correct club call sign is. Our club has a club call sign covering all of our activities, and there is a sub-group of contesters in the club who have obtained a different club call sign - with a different licensee - for contests that they participate in separate from the club station. I've loaned equipment to the club to use for field day. Must we operate under my call sign, and don't forget the other equipment is the club's, or might be other equipment loans. No. Unless you "declare" that it is your personal station. The call sign to be used is not tied to the ownership of the hardware. You don't want to be stuck with the violations of someone else. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
Identification Question
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
[snip] : I know what you are saying, but there is a world of : difference between the seemingly clear rule and the : reality. Our club has 3 call signs. Which do I use? I've : loaned equipment to the club to use for field day. Must : we operate under my call sign, and don't forget the other : equipment is the club's, or might be other equipment : loans. : : Some times there could be so much discussion about what : the "proper" call : : sign is to use that people might just pack up and go home. The club I used to belong to had 2 callsigns. As long as you held the correct level of privileges under your own call, as far as I know you could use whichever club call you wanted, as long as you completed the right logbook..! 73 Ivor G6URP |
Identification Question
Phil Kane wrote in
: On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 22:23:05 EST, Mike Coslo wrote: I know what you are saying, but there is a world of difference between the seemingly clear rule and the reality. Our club has 3 call signs. Which do I use? Are you sure that all three have the same club name? The station trustee is responsible for telling the operator(s) what the correct club call sign is. Each has a different Trustee. Our club has a club call sign covering all of our activities, and there is a sub-group of contesters in the club who have obtained a different club call sign - with a different licensee - for contests that they participate in separate from the club station. I've loaned equipment to the club to use for field day. Must we operate under my call sign, and don't forget the other equipment is the club's, or might be other equipment loans. No. Unless you "declare" that it is your personal station. The call sign to be used is not tied to the ownership of the hardware. And there is an important part of the equation. Is there an F.C.C. form in which the "station" is declared as belonging to which call sign? If I borrow a friend's HT to call back somone who calls me, I think I am technically in violation of what station is what and who's station. You don't want to be stuck with the violations of someone else. Indeed. I think that this is one of those gray areas in which we some times find our selves. It reminds me of a drawn out discussion once about "Is it illegal to use an antenna analyzer?" After a whole lot of cogitation, the consensus was that it was indeed illegal to use one without ID'ing, but that the F.C.C. enforcement officer would be sorely tempted to box your ears if you turned someone in for using an antenna analyzer.... 8^) - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
Identification Question
On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:22:21 EST, Mike Coslo
wrote: And there is an important part of the equation. Is there an F.C.C. form in which the "station" is declared as belonging to which call sign? If I borrow a friend's HT to call back somone who calls me, I think I am technically in violation of what station is what and who's station. No violation. That situation can be viewed either of two ways, both equally valid and both equally legal - you are borrowing hardware for YOUR station and use your call sign, or you are operating HIS station and use his call sign. You don't want to be stuck with the violations of someone else. Indeed. I think that this is one of those gray areas in which we some times find our selves. Not grey at all to us comm lawyers.... ggg It reminds me of a drawn out discussion once about "Is it illegal to use an antenna analyzer?" After a whole lot of cogitation, the consensus was that it was indeed illegal to use one without ID'ing, Depends on the power level used by the Analyzer. It may be operated as a Part 15 device - no license, no ID - if it meets those requirements. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
Identification Question
"Phil Kane" wrote
It reminds me of a drawn out discussion once about "Is it illegal to use an antenna analyzer?" After a whole lot of cogitation, the consensus was that it was indeed illegal to use one without ID'ing, Depends on the power level used by the Analyzer. It may be operated as a Part 15 device - no license, no ID - if it meets those requirements. Is the power limit under Part 15 still 100 mw? Howard N7SO (too lazy to look it up) |
Identification Question
Howard Lester wrote:
"Phil Kane" wrote It reminds me of a drawn out discussion once about "Is it illegal to use an antenna analyzer?" After a whole lot of cogitation, the consensus was that it was indeed illegal to use one without ID'ing, Depends on the power level used by the Analyzer. It may be operated as a Part 15 device - no license, no ID - if it meets those requirements. Is the power limit under Part 15 still 100 mw? Howard N7SO (too lazy to look it up) It is unless you are operating BPL then the sky appears to be the limit. Dave WD9BDZ |
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 19:05:50 EST, "Howard Lester"
wrote: Depends on the power level used by the Analyzer. It may be operated as a Part 15 device - no license, no ID - if it meets those requirements. Is the power limit under Part 15 still 100 mw? Howard N7SO (too lazy to look it up) You didn't miss anything by not trying to look it up. The Commish' in its infinite wisdom made the Part 15 "intentional radiator" and "incidental radiator" requirements very complicated several years ago, with no real thought given to analog laboratory measuring equipment such as TDRs, signal generators, and Antenna Analyzers. The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices, and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for compliance with specified antenna arrangements. Stuff like that keeps private-sector "FCC Certification Test Facilities" in business. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
Identification Question
In article
@corp.supernews.com, "Howard Lester" wrote: "Phil Kane" wrote It reminds me of a drawn out discussion once about "Is it illegal to use an antenna analyzer?" After a whole lot of cogitation, the consensus was that it was indeed illegal to use one without ID'ing, Depends on the power level used by the Analyzer. It may be operated as a Part 15 device - no license, no ID - if it meets those requirements. Is the power limit under Part 15 still 100 mw? Howard N7SO (too lazy to look it up) There a pile of definitions that define what the Maximum RF can be for a Part 15 device these days. Frequency is one, Intentional, or Unintentional radiation is another, Carrier, Spread Spectrum, etc. It isn't for the Faint at Heart, to figure it out. Bruce in alaska -- Bruce in alaska add path after fast to reply |
Identification Question
In article ,
Phil Kane wrote: You didn't miss anything by not trying to look it up. The Commish' in its infinite wisdom made the Part 15 "intentional radiator" and "incidental radiator" requirements very complicated several years ago, with no real thought given to analog laboratory measuring equipment such as TDRs, signal generators, and Antenna Analyzers. The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices, and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for compliance with specified antenna arrangements. Stuff like that keeps private-sector "FCC Certification Test Facilities" in business. Phil, In practice, is there anything that can be done about uncertified (and very probably not-technically-compliant) intentional radiators? Last year, after I bought a new car, I found that the remote-control keyfob would not work reliably (or at all) when the car was parked in a local mall's parking lot. When I sniffed around a bit with my HT, I found that there was a strong, repetitive signal on 433.920 MHz. I DF'ed to a local restaurant. The waiters at the restaurant use hand-held remote terminals, which transmit the order (by item number, apparently) back to a base in the kitchen where it's printed out by the cooks. This makes for fast and reliable service, but the base is apparently sending out a heartbeat transmission several times per second. The signal is strong enough to swamp other devices on 433.920 MHz for around a hundred yards. I can pick it up on my car rig (in SSB mode) for a couple of blocks in some directions. One evening when I ate there I expressed curiosity and took a look at one of the handheld terminals. It has a model-number sticker on the bottom but there's no hint of a Part 15 registration number. I wrote down the manufacturer name, found their website, and also dug through the FCC Part 15 authorization database. I can't find any evidence that this device (which is imported) was ever certified under Part 15. I suspect that it's noncertified, and may have been cranked up to a power level which is beyond the Part 15 limits (and certainly seems excessive for what it's doing). I passed the info along to my local ARRL OO, who contacted some lab guys at the ARRL... they'd never heard of this particular problem. As far as I know they didn't choose to follow up on the matter. Since this isn't actually interfering with any licensed ham transmission I'm trying to make (but only with other Part 15 devices) I didn't feel that I really have standing to push the matter through the ARRL/OO or file a formal complaint with the FCC. My gut feeling at this point is that trying to get the FCC to take this issue up with the manufacturer, importer, and/or customer (restaurant) is probably a waste of effort... can you hold out any hope that there's a way of dealing with the problem? -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
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"Phil Kane" wrote
The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices, and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for compliance with specified antenna arrangements. The device in question was a Heathkit CB walkie-talkie with a not so super regenerative receiver that I built in 1963. I suppose that radio was an "intentional radiator," but its intentions were pretty weak.... Oh, well, it led to a ham ticket. Howard |
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In article ,
"Howard Lester" wrote: "Phil Kane" wrote The old "100 mw input" limits apply only to certain types of devices, and in general "intentional radiators" have to be certified for compliance with specified antenna arrangements. The device in question was a Heathkit CB walkie-talkie with a not so super regenerative receiver that I built in 1963. I suppose that radio was an "intentional radiator," but its intentions were pretty weak.... Oh, well, it led to a ham ticket. Howard I suspect your unit would be "GrandFathered" by the rules in effect when it was built. Phil would know for sure..... -- Bruce in alaska add path after fast to reply |
Identification Question
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Identification Question
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:23:56 EST, Bruce in alaska
wrote: A couple of things he First the Terminal System "May" be covered by a Station License issued by the FCC, in a different Radio Service. At 433 MHz? Not very likely. Second, It may very well be an illegal Import, and not Certified. In this era this is most likely. I sent the necessary contact info to Dave off-line to get something done about this. My Boss got a call from some Corp. Weenie, complaining about the inspection, how it was all a mistake, they were Sorry they lost the License Application, that it was all the Installation Contractors Fault, it will never happen again, Oh and by the way could we turn it back "ON" as is, just until we can get this all straighten out?...... I've heard that song before. Can it be played in 4 part harmony? ggg Didn't even get the chance, to comment, as SHE hit the guy with a $5000 forfeiture for UnLicensed Operation. How very much Marlene. "The List" shows that she's still the RA in Anchorage. I haven't seen her since the Big Let's-Rename-the-Field Bureau-and-Then-Take-It-Apart conference that we attended 12 years ago where most of us made up our minds to retire. Are you still in contact with her? -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
Identification Question
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:21:59 EST, Bruce in alaska
wrote: I suspect your unit would be "GrandFathered" by the rules in effect when it was built. Phil would know for sure..... Either that or "grandmothered"... ggg -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
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"Bruce in alaska" wrote The device in question was a Heathkit CB walkie-talkie with a not so super regenerative receiver that I built in 1963. I suppose that radio was an "intentional radiator," but its intentions were pretty weak.... Oh, well, it led to a ham ticket. Howard I suspect your unit would be "GrandFathered" by the rules in effect when it was built. Phil would know for sure..... Bruce, it's long since been grandfathered to the landfill. :-) |
Identification Question
In article ,
Phil Kane wrote: How very much Marlene. "The List" shows that she's still the RA in Anchorage. I haven't seen her since the Big Let's-Rename-the-Field Bureau-and-Then-Take-It-Apart conference that we attended 12 years ago where most of us made up our minds to retire. Are you still in contact with her? -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane No, but I did have a chance to talk to Dave, a few years back. He was the other RA that was left after the Blood-Letting. I understand they still work out of the Old Anchorage Monitoring Station Site, near the Airport, but I haven't traveled up that way for years. Yea, she was a real "Piece of Work". I wonder if she ever got "Called UP" as she was a Major in the Reserves, when I worked for her. I wouldn't want to face her down, if she had a weapon in hand.... -- Bruce in alaska add path after fast to reply |
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