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In AF6AY writes:

According to this recent demonstration on the Tonight Show with Jay
Leno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhsSgcsTMd4

Ahem...quibble mode on...that little bit on the Tonight Show was
a 'setup' gig that employed two young local male actors as the
(described) "text messaging experts" but the two hams (one of which
would very soon become marketing director for Heil Sound) were
real. That is the input I got directly from a reliable staffer on
the Tonight Show. Took a few phone calls to get that information
but it is an advantage of living inside the entertainment capital of
the USA (aka Los Angeles, CA)...and the NBC western Hq is only
about 5 miles south of my place, down Hollywood Way to Alameda and
then east about a mile. That whole bit was really a send-up on the
popular fad of text messaging done by teeners and young adults.

That bit is about as 'real documentary' as Leno's send-ups on the
'street interviews' with ordinary (apparently clueless) younger
folk on various kinds of knowledge. In short, ONLY for gag purposes.

[...]

Sorry, but I've got to call baloney on this one. The individual who
appeared on the Tonight Show who sent the text message was actually Ben
Cook, and not an actor. Ben held the world's record for fastest text
messaging:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Cook

The two Morse code operators, Chip Margelli, K7JA, and Ken Miller,
K6CTW, have attested to this being an actual contest with an actual,
previously unknown, message to send, which was sent both by Morse code,
and by text messaging. And there's no disputing that fast Morse code
would always beat an SMS text message of the same length. See:

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/05/16/3/?nc=1

Two named witnesses would appear to trump one anonymous source.

Therefore, your anonymous "reliable staffer" seems anything but.

- --
73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU

http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/
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Paul Schleck posted on 24 Mar 08:

AF6AY writes:

According to this recent demonstration on the Tonight Show with Jay
Leno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhsSgcsTMd4
Ahem...quibble mode on...that little bit on the Tonight Show was
a 'setup' gig that employed two young local male actors as the
(described) "text messaging experts" but the two hams (one of which
would very soon become marketing director for Heil Sound) were
real. That is the input I got directly from a reliable staffer on
the Tonight Show. Took a few phone calls to get that information
but it is an advantage of living inside the entertainment capital of
the USA (aka Los Angeles, CA)...and the NBC western Hq is only
about 5 miles south of my place, down Hollywood Way to Alameda and
then east about a mile. That whole bit was really a send-up on the
popular fad of text messaging done by teeners and young adults.
That bit is about as 'real documentary' as Leno's send-ups on the
'street interviews' with ordinary (apparently clueless) younger
folk on various kinds of knowledge. In short, ONLY for gag purposes.

Sorry, but I've got to call baloney on this one. The individual who
appeared on the Tonight Show who sent the text message was actually Ben
Cook, and not an actor. Ben held the world's record for fastest text
messaging:

If you say so, then it is so. All I've got are some acquaintences IN
the entertainment industry who work behind the camera...plus five
professional actors (who don't count in this particular discussion).
That 'recent demonstration' was over a year ago, was it not?

"The Tonight Show with Jay Leno" is an entertainment vehicle. It is
not a documentary source of absolute facts. All such 'talk' shows
are convenience outlets for Public Relations in this capital of
motion picture and television production of the USA. MOST of the
movie and TV production in this city lives or dies by PR.

If I had become persuasive in my inquiry I MIGHT have gotten at
least a Call Sheet for the 'Leno show' in question. Usually those
are (by common agreement) Non-Disclosure documents. I could have
then digitized that Call Sheet and sent it privately as 'evidence.'
I did not think that such was necessary in this case.

The two Morse code operators, Chip Margelli, K7JA, and Ken Miller,
K6CTW, have attested to this being an actual contest with an actual,
previously unknown, message to send, which was sent both by Morse code,
and by text messaging. And there's no disputing that fast Morse code
would always beat an SMS text message of the same length.

I have corresponded with Mr. Margelli in his new position as
Director of Marketing for Heil Sound...about Heil products, not
about this alleged 'test' or 'contest' on the 'Leno show.' I have
NO complaints about Mr. Margelli's nor Mr. Miller's capabilities
with manual morse code communications. I only have complaints
about this entertainment gig being used as 'factual demonstration'
of any comparison of manual morse code versus any other mode.

I haven't used a Teletype Model 28 machine in many years...but I
could challenge ANY manual morse code operator pair to send either
clear text or enciphered (5-character groups) textual data as to
which method is 'faster' (TTY v. manual morse). I would not need
a recipient on-stage since another TTY terminal would repeat all
input sent by the transmitting terminal. The only problem there
is that it ALSO is a 'set-up' kind of 'test' (any touch-typist on
a TTY would 'win') and has very little entertainment value. The
latter item would cause its non-appearance on 'the Leno show.'
I am a touch typist who learned that in middle school on manual
typewriters with no legends on key tops. I am age 75 and still
retain the ability to continuously 'send' keyboard input at about
50 WPM with burst-input rates approximately 100 WPM.

Two named witnesses would appear to trump one anonymous source.

Therefore, your anonymous "reliable staffer" seems anything but.

I cannot argue your statements or 'baloney' comments in this
venue. My original source is now working for another show.
No more access to Tonight show records is possible. If you or
any other morse code mode champion say it was a 'real test,'
then it must be a real test.

As to the efficacy claim that manual morse code communications
beats cellular telephone textual-only (by keypad) communications,
I do not know of a single communications service or provider
that uses 'text' (via cellphone) for two-way communications. Of
what point was this entertainment venue 'test' actually proving?

AF6AY

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:13:01 EDT, AF6AY wrote:

The only problem there
is that it ALSO is a 'set-up' kind of 'test' (any touch-typist on
a TTY would 'win') and has very little entertainment value.

My secretary at March AFB (early 1960s) could and did type faster than
the Model 28 could cut tape. It frustrated her no end.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

Phil Kane wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:13:01 EDT, AF6AY wrote:

The only problem there
is that it ALSO is a 'set-up' kind of 'test' (any touch-typist on
a TTY would 'win') and has very little entertainment value.

My secretary at March AFB (early 1960s) could and did type faster than
the Model 28 could cut tape. It frustrated her no end.

My cohort at the old U.S. Embassy in Guinea-Bissau and I could jam one
up as well. Nothing like poking tape on numerous multi-page outgoing
cables five or six days per week to build typing speed and technique.
The 28's were set up so that we never saw what we typed appear on paper.
If you really wanted to check your work, you'd have to gather up the
perf tape and look at it. Those machines were replaced just after I
left Bissau in late 1987. I took the very last State Department 28 in
Africa out of service in Sierra Leone in 1990. We had to destroy the
innards, but a colleague wanted the cabinet. He re-worked the thing and
turned it into a bar in his living room. His wife arrived at post a
couple of months later and the new bar was quickly relegated to the
fellow's ham shack.

During my early time at State, most places were using Teletype Model 40
equipment with the three 8" disk drives and the fastest, most rugged
impact printer I'd ever seen. That stuff was gradually replaced by
computer equipment in the 1987 to 1992 time frame.

I ran a Model 15 in Cincy and also had a Model 33 for a while. I wanted
a 28 with the 3-speed gear shift badly. W8JIN offered me one long after
I'd begun using a Commodore C-64. I gave it about thirty seconds
thought before rejecting it as too big and heavy.

Len's point about touch typists winning a speed contest with Morse ops
would depend entirely upon how fast the typist was. The second junior
op I had in Bissau would have been lucky to do 30 wpm on a keyboard.

With the teletype model 40 stuff, there was not any typing of cables at
all. Secretaries typed the cable and they were fed into an OCR. The
operator might have to correct a formatting error or the occasional
misread character. With the advent of the classified LAN's and the
computerized equipment, drafters would electronically release cable text
and addressees to the communications center and the ops would send the
messages. Incoming traffic was routed in the same way, mostly
automatically. Anything not understood by the computer would route to a
'spill que' to be manually assigned action and info offices.
Occasionally the Deputy Chief of Mission would telephone or e-mail a
request that the action office for a given cable be changed.

By then, part of our work involved keeping message router databases (the
military addressees--especially Navy--could change frequently) up to
date. The computerization was supposed to result in the paperless
office. It didn't. The stuff was just printed somewhere other than in
the comm center.

Dave K8MN

Phil Kane wrote:
My secretary at March AFB (early 1960s) could and did type faster than
the Model 28 could cut tape. It frustrated her no end.

I can send Morse Code a lot faster than I can text
message on my cellphone.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Mar 24, 6:13 pm, AF6AY wrote:
Paul Schleck posted on 24 Mar 08:
AF6AY writes:

According to this recent demonstration on the Tonight Show with Jay
Leno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhsSgcsTMd4

Ahem...quibble mode on...that little bit on the Tonight Show was
a 'setup' gig that employed two young local male actors as the
(described) "text messaging experts"

No, it wasn't. They were not actors.

In the clip, the sending text messager is described by Jay Leno as
"the country's fastest text messager" and his name is given as
"Ben Cook". He says his record is sending a 160 character message
in 57 seconds. Those facts can be verified by watching the clip.

160 characters in 57 seconds at 5 characters per word works out to
approximately 33.68 wpm.

160 characters in 57 seconds at 6 characters per word (allowing for
spaces between words) works out to approximately 28.07 wpm.

The current Guinness Book of World Records for a 160 character
message is 41 seconds. That works out to about 46.83 and 39.02 wpm for
5 and 6 characters-per-word, respectively.

All are well below the world-record Morse Code speed, or the speed of
skilled Morse Code operators.

The 160 character message used in the text-message speed-record
attempts
is a standard message previously disclosed, so that all attempts use
the same
message. The Leno test used a message unknown to any of the
participants.

but the two hams (one of which
would very soon become marketing director for Heil Sound) were
real. That is the input I got directly from a reliable staffer on
the Tonight Show.

Whom you do not name, so his information cannot be verified
independently.

Took a few phone calls to get that information
but it is an advantage of living inside the entertainment capital of
the USA (aka Los Angeles, CA)...and the NBC western Hq is only
about 5 miles south of my place, down Hollywood Way to Alameda and
then east about a mile.

What difference does that make?

That whole bit was really a send-up on the
popular fad of text messaging done by teeners and young adults.
That bit is about as 'real documentary' as Leno's send-ups on the
'street interviews' with ordinary (apparently clueless) younger
folk on various kinds of knowledge. In short, ONLY for gag purposes.

Sorry, but I've got to call baloney on this one. The individual who
appeared on the Tonight Show who sent the text message was actually Ben
Cook, and not an actor. Ben held the world's record for fastest text
messaging:

If you say so, then it is so.

No, it has been verified by several independent sources, including
people who
were actually there and part of the test.

That 'recent demonstration' was over a year ago, was it not?

Yes - what difference does that make? The video clip can be
reviewed for confirmation.

"The Tonight Show with Jay Leno" is an entertainment vehicle. It is
not a documentary source of absolute facts.

Yet the facts are clear: Neither the text message sender nor the Morse
Code operators were actors, according to named people who were
actually there.

The two Morse code operators, Chip Margelli, K7JA, and Ken Miller,
K6CTW, have attested to this being an actual contest with an actual,
previously unknown, message to send, which was sent both by Morse code,
and by text messaging. And there's no disputing that fast Morse code
would always beat an SMS text message of the same length.

I have corresponded with Mr. Margelli in his new position as
Director of Marketing for Heil Sound...about Heil products, not
about this alleged 'test' or 'contest' on the 'Leno show.'

Yet you use the word "alleged" and imply he is wrong when he says
the text-messager was not an actor.

I have
NO complaints about Mr. Margelli's nor Mr. Miller's capabilities
with manual morse code communications.

OK so far.

I only have complaints
about this entertainment gig being used as 'factual demonstration'
of any comparison of manual morse code versus any other mode.

Why? What are the complaints? What was not factual about the
demonstration?

Do you think that text messaging is faster than Morse Code done
by skilled operators?

The text-messaging sender has been identified as a record-holder
named Ben Cook. The record text-messge speed is below that
of skilled Morse Code operators, and the text-messager simply
lost the speed race. Not just on the show, but in rehearsals.

The two Morse Code operators, K7JA and K6CTW, have publicly and
privately said it was a real test. Are they not telling the truth?
Why should
anyone believe your account of an unnamed ex-staffperson, and not
believe
two identified people who were actual participants?

Two named witnesses would appear to trump one anonymous source.

Therefore, your anonymous "reliable staffer" seems anything but.

I cannot argue your statements or 'baloney' comments in this
venue.

Why not?

What's wrong with "this venue"?

My original source is now working for another show.
No more access to Tonight show records is possible. If you or
any other morse code mode champion say it was a 'real test,'
then it must be a real test.

What was wrong with the test? Given the evidence, why would any
reasonable person say it was not a real test?

As to the efficacy claim that manual morse code communications
beats cellular telephone textual-only (by keypad) communications,
I do not know of a single communications service or provider
that uses 'text' (via cellphone) for two-way communications.

Mine does.

When I receive a text message, the cellphone display shows "reply"
in the lower left corner. All I have to do is push the right button,
type
in my message, and push "send". The recipient can text me back, too.

That's two-way communications. I've had long conversations via text
messaging that way. It's slow but it works. Effective in noisy
environments
or when having a voice call is otherwise not the best choice.

Text messaging is a useful communications tool. So is Morse Code.
I use both.

Of what point was this entertainment venue 'test' actually proving?

It showed that old methods aren't necessarily slower or less useful
than
newer ones.

In the first part of the clip, Jay Leno selects a young lady from the
audience,
talks to her a bit, and asks if she thinks Morse Code or text
messaging is
faster. The young lady says text messaging is faster. The audience
agrees.

Jay Leno then brings out the "country's fastest text messager" (not an
actor) and the two Morse Code operators, introduces them, and explains
the test.
The audience and the young lady are confident that the new technology
of text
messaging will be faster than the old Morse Code.

Yet when the test is actually run, Morse Code proves to be faster, and
produces
a hard-copy printout for verification. The world-record-holder could
not beat a couple
of amateurs going at a fraction of the Morse Code record speed.

Not only is the bit entertaining, it proves the point of newer not
always being faster.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
Yet when the test is actually run, Morse Code proves to be faster, and
produces
a hard-copy printout for verification. The world-record-holder could
not beat a couple
of amateurs going at a fraction of the Morse Code record speed.

What serious CW operator cannot send Morse faster than he/she
can text-message? I don't know of anyone including me. But
give me a full sized keyboard and the situation changes.

Not only is the bit entertaining, it proves the point of newer not
always being faster.

Given no previous experience and one hour of training for
each mode, which would win? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Mar 25, 3:15 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
The world-record-holder

(in text messaging)

could not beat a couple
of amateurs going at a fraction of the Morse Code record speed.

What serious CW operator cannot send Morse faster than he/she
can text-message? I don't know of anyone including me. But
give me a full sized keyboard and the situation changes.

Of course! But what cell phone has a full sized keyboard?

And if the Morse operators are allowed full sized Morse keyboards,
the situation changes yet again.

With a decent 10 speed bicycle I could win the Boston Marathon
(as long as everybody else has to run).

Not only is the bit entertaining, it proves the point of newer not
always being faster.

Given no previous experience and one hour of training for
each mode, which would win? :-)

Bwaahaahaa! ;-) Good one!

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:28:23 EDT, wrote:

Of course! But what cell phone has a full sized keyboard?

IIRC I can generate and send text-messages using the Motorola Phone
Tools computer software connected to my Motorola cellphone via a USB
port, thereby using a full-size screen and keyboard to do so. I use
that setup to edit my "call list" in the 'phone.

Although I have received text messages on that 'phone, I have yet had
no need to send one. Compared to the JHS and HS crowd, I am certainly
"deprived".
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

"Of course! But what cell phone has a full sized keyboard?

IIRC I can generate and send text-messages using the Motorola Phone
Tools computer software connected to my Motorola cellphone via a USB
port, thereby using a full-size screen and keyboard to do so. I use
that setup to edit my "call list" in the 'phone.


So given a typist of comparable proficiency to the Morse operators (
meaning probably in the region of 80 - 100 wpm) it is most likely that the
text message would win the race; depending on system delays, which again is
not a fair comparison to face to face Morse. You could wait for hours, or
days, or even years for the bands to open to a particular location!!

It all goes to show that you must compare like with like. I am sure that the
Morse operators would have also lost if they were forced to send extraneous
letters as they cycled through to find the correct one, as the text'er had
to.

73
Jeff