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Are all PL-259s equal
Is it worth paying a high price for sa supposed quality plg or can
equally used the much cheaper ones? Been QRT for over 25 years and should be on the air in a few weeks with a FlexRadio 6300 TIA Guy G4DWV/4X1LT |
Are all PL-259s equal
On 8/14/2014 5:24 PM, DrTeeth wrote:
Is it worth paying a high price for sa supposed quality plg or can equally used the much cheaper ones? They are not all equal. Aside from actual physical dimensions being "not right." There's also a matter of material, finish and dielectric. -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com |
Are all PL-259s equal
Is it worth paying a high price for sa supposed quality plg or can
equally used the much cheaper ones? Been QRT for over 25 years and should be on the air in a few weeks with a FlexRadio 6300 The cheap ones tend to be nickel-plated brass. They can be a bear to solder (it doesn't "wet" nickel easily) unless you grind off the nickel to expose the brass. The cheap ones also tend to use poorer-grade insulation such as nylon, which doesn't stand up to high-heat soldering well... and since you need to apply a lot of heat to these things to solder them, that's a problem. And, I've seen cheapies whose thread dimensions seemed to be a bit "off" or which had some roughness in the thread or barrel, and didn't fasten into the socket smoothly. The really good ones are silver-plated, and take solder much more easily. They also use Teflon insulation, which resists soldering heat quite well. "Cheap is often very expensive". It's frustrating to have to go through two or three cheap connectors, several installation attempts, and a "Damn it, there's an internal short, gotta cut it off and try again" which ends up costing you lots of time, and (sometimes) more $$ on connectors than if you'd just gone ahead and bought a good one to start. And, having your rig not work well (or even suffer high-SWR damage) because your connector wasn't *really* soldered right, and went "open" or shorted out at the top end of the feedline right in the middle of a contest or new DX contact... well, "imagine the grousing" as my wife puts it. HRO carries silver/teflon PL-259s for $2.69, Quicksilver sells 'em 4/$12 (or 4/$10 for the crimp-on style), and other mail-order dealers probably have comparable prices. "Saving" a buck or so buying a cheap connector is really not worth the risk of hassle. |
Are all PL-259s equal
On 8/14/14, 6:28 PM, David Platt wrote:
"Cheap is often very expensive". There are many places in life to cut corners. Connectors is not one. Neither is coax. 73, Steve KB9X |
Are all PL-259s equal
"DrTeeth" wrote in message
... Is it worth paying a high price for sa supposed quality plg or can equally used the much cheaper ones? Been QRT for over 25 years and should be on the air in a few weeks with a FlexRadio 6300 Be warned that there are both metric and imperial versions of the PL259/SO239 combinations. I fell over this incompatibility a few years ago when buying a second-hand 2m colinear, despite that I had been using them for 20 years previously. |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 18:24:05 EDT, DrTeeth wrote:
Is it worth paying a high price for sa supposed quality plg or can equally used the much cheaper ones? Been QRT for over 25 years and should be on the air in a few weeks with a FlexRadio 6300 Ummm... a Flexradio 6300 retails for $2500 and you're trying to be cheap on coax connectors? That's 0.1% of the retail price for a silver plated and PTFE connector. I'll play along, but your question seems a bit absurd. There are many things wrong with the PL259, few of which will have an effect on your HF operation. 1. The PL259 is not 50 ohms and therefore produces an "impedance bump" on the line. You can see it with a TDR (time domain reflectometer). However, unless you're using it at microwave frequencies, it won't have any effect on your operation. 2. The PL259 plating has an effect on PIM (passive intermodulation distortion) where the non-linearities of some plating material, or the insufficient thickness of the plating, can cause mixing. Also, magnetic materials used in the connectors are a problem. Nickel plating is the worst. White bronze or Nexcote are the best. Mixing plating types is really bad. Unless you're running full duplex on HF (unlikely), or listening for really weak signals at VHF/UHF and higher frequencies, it's unlikely to be a problem. 3. The PL259 is a PITA to assemble correctly. You have a chance of getting it right with a crimp connector, but the conventional PL259 is an ugly mess to assemble. This is fairly accurate. Note the vise grips and butane torch: http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%20Radio/Experimentation/SolderCoax.htm Despite such methods I still see broken jumper cables with rotating connectors. Even if it's done correctly, they still tend to fall apart. Extra credit for nickel plating that is difficult to solder. 4. The necessary insulation comes in a variety of materials. Nylon is the worst as it's hydroscope (absorbs moisture). Bakelite is brittle, but deteriorates over time. Some kind of white stuff looks ok for RF, but melts easily. PTFE (Teflon) is probably the best and does well at high power levels. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Are all PL-259s equal
On 8/16/14, 4:24 PM, Bill Horne W1AC wrote:
"Was that over the top? I can never tell ..." Yes. Much appreciated. Thank you. |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:25:15 EDT, just as I was about to take a herb,
Jeff Liebermann disturbed my reverie and wrote: Ummm... a Flexradio 6300 retails for $2500 and you're trying to be cheap on coax connectors? No I was not. I was just asking if it is worth spending more. I am very happy to pay for quality but not prepared to throw my money away. Got some very nice RG213 coax too - even though the run will be less than 10 meters. Just because something is more expensive does not necessarily mean that it is better. Many things do not sell if priced cheap and fly off the shelf when over-priced. I do not mind paying for quality at all. In fact, I have bought some very expensive high-quality compression PL259s that cost approx $9 each. -- 73's de Guy G4DWV/4X1LT |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:35:41 EDT, just as I was about to take a herb,
(Bill Horne W1AC) disturbed my reverie and wrote: According to Edmunds, a Mercedes-Benz CL65 AMG has an MSRP of over $200,000.00. Does that mean that everyone who buys one should always use the most expensive brand-name fuel available? I use economy tyres on my 320E CDi. I do not believe - and I have looked and asked many tyre people if the branded tyres are 100% 'better' (whatever that means) than the cheaper ones at half the price. Nobody has yet convinced me. -- Cheers, DrT ** You've never known happiness until you're married; ** but by then it is too late. |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:35:41 EDT, (Bill
Horne W1AC) wrote: On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:25:15 EDT, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 18:24:05 EDT, DrTeeth wrote: Is it worth paying a high price for sa supposed quality plg or can equally used the much cheaper ones? Ummm... a Flexradio 6300 retails for $2500 and you're trying to be cheap on coax connectors? That's 0.1% of the retail price for a silver plated and PTFE connector. According to Edmunds, a Mercedes-Benz CL65 AMG has an MSRP of over $200,000.00. Does that mean that everyone who buys one should always use the most expensive brand-name fuel available? The CL65 AMG probably is designed to on premium high performance gasoline. Running it on low octane fuel is probably a bad idea. Somehow, I don't think the owner of a $200,000 vehicle is going to risk running it on low octane fuel. You're making the assumption that since I recommended to not use the cheapest connector, I must obviously be recommending the most expensive connector available. That's not the case. I provided a list of possible problems with low quality connectors. I've personally experienced all the problems listed in commercial installations and designs. If one doesn't care about any of the listed problems, then they can probably do well using low end connectors. If the problems itemized are deemed to be important, then there are better connectors available. The OP may not need the absolute best. For example, a silver plated, PTFE insulated PL-259 is probably sufficient. No need for expensive low-PIM white bronze plating material: http://www.amphenolconnex.com/landing/low-pim-adapters -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:35:27 EDT, DrTeeth wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:25:15 EDT, just as I was about to take a herb, Jeff Liebermann disturbed my reverie and wrote: Ummm... a Flexradio 6300 retails for $2500 and you're trying to be cheap on coax connectors? No I was not. I was just asking if it is worth spending more. I believe that I supplied that information in the technical part of my posting which you trimmed. If none of the problems I mentioned are applicable to your situation, then you are probably safe using low end connectors. However, if one or more appear to be applicable, you might do well to buy something better. It's YOUR decision. I am very happy to pay for quality but not prepared to throw my money away. On the other hand, I'm fully prepared to spend quite a bit of money on connectors and coax if I suspect that using junk might be problematic. For the PL259, the problem is not the connector or the coax. The problem is the person that assembles the connector. I've seen some very bad assembly and soldering on PL259. The more expensive crimp connectors are much better. Got some very nice RG213 coax too - even though the run will be less than 10 meters. RG-213/u is good stuff. Double shielded and 95% coverage. However, I've seen some RG-213 "style" coax, which is basically junk counterfeit coax. If it's not from a known name brand manufactory, it might become a problem. Just because something is more expensive does not necessarily mean that it is better. Many things do not sell if priced cheap and fly off the shelf when over-priced. Yep. A friend had trouble selling his house. He kept lowering the price, but nothing helped. The realtor suggested that he raise the price instead. That worked because it brought in a new class of buyer, that wasn't interested in buying a cheap house. I assumed that anyone purchasing a $2500 radio would be a better class of buyer. I guess not. I do not mind paying for quality at all. In fact, I have bought some very expensive high-quality compression PL259s that cost approx $9 each. I can't tell without a manufacturer and model number for the connectors if they are worth $9/ea. Incidentally, I recently bought some 7/8" Heliax "N" connectors for about $25/ea. It was for 900 Mhz, so the criteria is quite different from HF. In this case, it was low PIM and reliable enough so that I don't have to pay an overpriced tower climber to fix the installation. Perhaps you can compromise with your installation. Use a cheap connector on the ground, where it can easily be replaced, and use a more expensive connector on top of the tower or pole, where replacement and repair are more of a problem. Incidentally, various cheap crimpers that work well: http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Misc/slides/crimpers.html About $25/ea. The largest size (yellow handles) is for LMR-400. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Are all PL-259s equal
On 8/25/14, 10:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
RG-213/u is good stuff. Double shielded and 95% coverage. However, I've seen some RG-213 "style" coax, which is basically junk counterfeit coax. If it's not from a known name brand manufactory, it might become a problem. I expect that this is a story most of you have heard in one form or another and/or experienced. A local ham was having trouble hitting the repeater using his handheld at home, so he decided to put a whip up on his tower. He did so, and discovered that he couldn't hit the repeater at all with the new improved antenna. The problem was that he bought poor quality coax. Note that I did not write "cheap coax". Based on the type designation he shouldn't have had much loss in the run. The designation makes little difference if the manufacturer and/or vendor is providing shoddy merchandise that doesn't really meet the standards implied by the designation of the coax. So perhaps more important than the price is the source. 73, Steve KB9X |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:43:15 EDT, Steve Bonine wrote:
On 8/25/14, 10:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: RG-213/u is good stuff. Double shielded and 95% coverage. However, I've seen some RG-213 "style" coax, which is basically junk counterfeit coax. If it's not from a known name brand manufactory, it might become a problem. I expect that this is a story most of you have heard in one form or another and/or experienced. Yep. I've seen plenty of counterfeit cables of all types. Usually the cable leaves out something, such as insufficient shielding, or lack of tin or silver plating. Sometimes they substitute copper plated steel wire for solid copper. Others have outer jackets that fall apart in the sun, or are full of holes. It's an all too common problem: http://www.belden.com/blog/datacenters/5-Things-You-Need-to-Know-About-Counterfeit-Cable-and-Connectivity.cfm http://mpddigital.us/lmr-coaxial-cable-counterfeiting-rises/ In about 2011, UL instituted and anti-counterfeiting move that required anything with a UL label to include a holographic label on the box, and very specific labeling on the cable: http://www.cablinginstall.com/articles/2011/02/counterfeit-cable-exposed.html At the time, I went through my bulk cable inventory and discovered that about 25% of the cable I had in stock was counterfeit, mostly CAT5e and CAT6 cable. I haven't seen any counterfeit RG-213/u but did run into a malfunctional UHF duplexer that used RG-214/u. The previous owner had built and installed new phasing lines in order to move it onto ham frequencies. It would tune to frequency, but the isolation (i.e. notch depth) was insufficient. I eventually took apart one of the phasing lines and immediately noticed that the shielding was not plated. RG-214/u is suppose to be silver plated. Although this was well past the return date for an eBay purchase, I contacted the seller, who was sufficiently horrified to send me a replacement set of cables. That fixed the tuning problem. So perhaps more important than the price is the source. Generally true. However, I suspect that some vendors are unaware that they're selling counterfeit products. Caveat Emptor. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Are all PL-259s equal
Some can work at 2Thz. I have a HENE gas laser that connects to the
handpiece via a PL-259. -- Fool me once, shame, shame on you. Fool me twice, fool me, won't get fooled again. |
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It sounds once again, like someone that wants to come back to amateur radio that thinks that they can set the world on fire - if they buy the radio with the most technology or the biggest amplifier. The cheap PL's with the nylon in the center are made for CB radio - a couple of watts - maybe 100 max. and are a one time use connector. The good ones - Amphenol - are good for a couple of thousand watts and can be reused. I use crimp on connectors, not the screw on type. The frequency range has nothing to do with the construction materials. UHF / PL Connectors are good for maybe 500 MHz and that is it. There are other connectors that are a lot less lossy above 500 Mhz such as the BNC. |
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The handheld works on the principal of nodes and junctions / Kirchoffs circuit law - the same principal that holds true for all electronic circuits. When the antenna is attached directly to the board, there is no feed line loss or impedance mismatch. The handheld radio is designed around the rubber duck antenna. When the rubber duck antenna was removed and a feed line was connected it became a imbalance load, the radio did not see the same impedance as a direct connected antenna, so it immediately thought that the radio was being operated out of band - or off frequency or that the antenna was missing, so it just folded back it's transmit power to nothing. There is a difference between receiving and transmitting. You don't have to know much or do much to receive a radio signal. It wouldn't matter if you used 3.250 hardline - the handheld was not designed to be operated this way. Had the new ham had an Elmer that knew this, the Elmer would have advised the new ham not to buy the handheld radio as a primary radio for amateur radio. The handheld should have been the last radio that the new ham should have bought, not the first. The handheld technically doesn't talk anywhere - except the local repeater, and it doesn't do anything except let the person talk to whom ever can hear their signal. This is the problem that the Original Poster has.. The OP doesn't know anything about amateur radio today and thought that he could compensate for a lack of intelligence with a more high tech transceiver. The Flex on the other hand takes more skill to operate than say a old Kenwood TS 520 that needs to be plate and tuned before you can operate it. There are many menu's in the Flex and unless you have someone that can help you set it up - it probably isn't going to work very well or sound the way you want it to sound or do the things you want it to do. My thought would be that if I knew nothing, I would at least ask someone which transceiver would be a good entry level transceiver. Even if it was just an Icom IC 7100 or a Kenwood TS 590 - he would probably have a better radio then the Flex... There is no use arguing with someone that doesn't know anything and is only concerned with price. Unless you were operating QRP - you darn well better have a lot more then one piece of coax and a lot more then 40'.... Even a dipole antenna needs to be 40' off the ground before it starts to perform. Maybe we can sell him a good G5RV and a Palomar tuner to go along with his Flex... |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:08:12 EDT, Barry OGrady
wrote: Some can work at 2Thz. I suspect you might mean 2 GigaHz. The PL-259 is only rated to 300 MHz: http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/uhf.asp Tests of the PL-259/SO-239 connectors: http://www.hamradio.me/subjects/connectors/ I would say that it's potentially a problem above about 300 MHz: http://www.hamradio.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/UHFvsOtherConnectors.png Mo http://www.wa1mba.org/UHFconn.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_connector However, lousy performance above about 300 MHz doesn't have any effect on HF operation from 2 to 30 MHz, so they're perfectly acceptable for use with the OP's SDR radio. I have a HENE gas laser that connects to the handpiece via a PL-259. Ummm... PL-259 connectors are only rated to 500 VDC: http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/uhf.asp How many volts (peak) are you using to drive your laser? 1400v is typical. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Are all PL-259s equal
On Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:06:05 EDT, just as I was about to take a herb,
Jeff Liebermann disturbed my reverie and wrote: However, I suspect that some vendors are unaware that they're selling counterfeit products. If they charge enough some people might think they are good quality. -- Cheers, DrT ** You've never known happiness until you're married; ** but by then it is too late. |
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