Dee Flint wrote:

Based on everything that I have read, the object of having a
series of license classes was so that people could take the journey in
smaller, more manageable steps. It does not seem like it was intended that
people would only go part way and say "good enough".

I have recently elmered a woman to her Extra class license. She had no
technical background and little to no experience in amateur radio even
though she had a license (she never really got active). She passed with
flying colors. So any one can do it if they so choose. By the way she is
now quite active in the club, is getting on the air, and she will be joining
me to participate in the November Sweeps. While we will try for the Clean
Sweep, our main goal is to get all states so she can apply for WAS.

All good stuff - but that's not really the issue.

I'm all for multiple license classes, incentives, increasing
privileges, etc.

But I think the problem K0HB is pointing out has to do with how those
incentives are generated.

It's one thing to generate incentive by offering more privileges than
you have now.

It's a very different thing to generate incentive by taking away some
privileges, then requiring an upgrade to get them back.

Right now all Generals and Advanceds (something like 200,000 amateurs)
can use 3600-3750 for CW/data. After the new rules, they will not be
able to use those freqs at all.

Yes, they gain 3800-3850, but that's a gain of 50 kHz phone/image for a
loss of 150.kHz CW/data.

Or look at it percentagewise. Right now, Generals have access to
3525-3750 and 3850-4000. That's 375 kHz total - 75% of the total band.
They have access to 90% of the non-phone bandspace and 60% of the
'phone bandspace.

After the change, Generals will have access to 3525-3600 and 3800-4000.
That's 275 kHz total - 55% of the total band. They will have access to
75% of the non-phone bandspace and 50% of the 'phone bandspace.

Back in the 1960s, the thing that ticked off some hams was not that the
idea of upgrading. It was the idea that the "incentive" to upgrade came
from having existing privileges taken away, rather than new ones added.


History repeats.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote in message
oups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:

Based on everything that I have read, the object of having a
series of license classes was so that people could take the journey in
smaller, more manageable steps. It does not seem like it was intended
that
people would only go part way and say "good enough".


[snip]


I'm all for multiple license classes, incentives, increasing
privileges, etc.

But I think the problem K0HB is pointing out has to do with how those
incentives are generated.

It's one thing to generate incentive by offering more privileges than
you have now.

It's a very different thing to generate incentive by taking away some
privileges, then requiring an upgrade to get them back.

Right now all Generals and Advanceds (something like 200,000 amateurs)
can use 3600-3750 for CW/data. After the new rules, they will not be
able to use those freqs at all.

Yes, they gain 3800-3850, but that's a gain of 50 kHz phone/image for a
loss of 150.kHz CW/data.

Or look at it percentagewise. Right now, Generals have access to
3525-3750 and 3850-4000. That's 375 kHz total - 75% of the total band.
They have access to 90% of the non-phone bandspace and 60% of the
'phone bandspace.

After the change, Generals will have access to 3525-3600 and 3800-4000.
That's 275 kHz total - 55% of the total band. They will have access to
75% of the non-phone bandspace and 50% of the 'phone bandspace.

Back in the 1960s, the thing that ticked off some hams was not that the
idea of upgrading. It was the idea that the "incentive" to upgrade came
from having existing privileges taken away, rather than new ones added.


History repeats.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I certainly agree that no one should lose privileges. Let's hope that was a
mistake and not intentional. And if it was a mistake that they fix it soon.
I've seen some info on the ARRL site where they are seeking clarification of
the R & O.


Dee, N8UZE

"Dee Flint" wrote


Based on everything that I have read, the object of having a series of license
classes was so that people could take the journey in smaller, more manageable
steps.

That's all well and good --- and if each "manageable step" has a corresponding
increase in privilege, we could call that "Incentive Licensing".

But what we have here (and had in the 1960's) is "Dis-incentive Licensing" ---
that's when you climb to a certain step (let's say "General") to enjoy a level
of privs. Then along comes an FCC R&O which knocks away some of those privs and
requires you to take another test in order to regain what you lost.

73, de Hans, K0HB

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
'phone bandspace.

massive snip

Back in the 1960s, the thing that ticked off some hams was not that the
idea of upgrading. It was the idea that the "incentive" to upgrade came
from having existing privileges taken away, rather than new ones added.


History repeats.

Dead on and woe be those who don't understand the principle. Close to
40 years on Mother FCC has apparently spanked us again, some of us
anyway, "because upgrading is in the best long-term interest of the
service". Or some such. God forbid they have the gonads to put it in
those terms in writing. I keep wondering which organization would win a
spin doctoring championship, the FCC or the ARRL.

I had a General ticket for 13-14 years when I lost ~ 70% of my
customary DX-chasing spectrum haunts. It was not pretty. Having to take
the 20wpm code test which back then meant getting 100 characters right
on paper in front of a steely-eyed FCC Examiner and even worse having
to trudge uphill both ways in a blizzard to the FCC office just to take
the test . . sob!

Bleh.

Thousands of us accepeted Mother's stick-and-carrot challenge back then
and it worked for us. If today's Generals really care about regaining
the frequecies they're about to lose their way out was clearly
demonstrated decades ago. My bet is that, for instance, very few
Generals will get off their butts and upgrade just to get back their
80M CW/Data space, they'll jump all over their new 50Khz phone space on
75 and never look back. Ask one which he/she would rather have, the
CW/Data freqs or the new phone privs . . talk about non-incentives . .

There is of course an outside chance that some intern screwed up the
R&O . . they've been there and done that before . .

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

"KØHB" wrote in message
link.net...

"Dee Flint" wrote


Based on everything that I have read, the object of having a series of
license classes was so that people could take the journey in smaller,
more manageable steps.

That's all well and good --- and if each "manageable step" has a
corresponding increase in privilege, we could call that "Incentive
Licensing".

But what we have here (and had in the 1960's) is "Dis-incentive
Licensing" --- that's when you climb to a certain step (let's say
"General") to enjoy a level of privs. Then along comes an FCC R&O which
knocks away some of those privs and requires you to take another test in
order to regain what you lost.

73, de Hans, K0HB


As I remarked to N2EY, let's hope that was a mistake and that they fix it.
I agree they shouldn't lose privileges.

Dee, N8UZE

"Dee Flint" wrote


As I remarked to N2EY, let's hope that was a mistake and that they fix it. I
agree they shouldn't lose privileges.


There's nothing in the 46-page R&O to make it look accidental or inadvertent.

73, de Hans, K0HB

wrote in news:1160605956.790621.133150
@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

KØHB wrote:
Iitoi wrote:
80M and 40M phone band expansion

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-06-149A1.doc

Why will they go "balistic" (maybe you meant "ballistic")?

I don't see any reason to go ballistic.

I can still operate CW on all the freqs I could before,

In theory, yes.

But in practice, how much CW operation actually happens in the US
'phone/image subbands? Practically none that I can hear.

I've picked up
some additional phone spectrum on a couple of crowded bands (hopefully
in time for SS phone), and all my Novice and Tech (w/Morse test)
friends gained a new bunch of HF spectrum.

Yup.

What's to "bo balistic" about?

Nothing I can see. But there are some other things to consider:

- I don't think FCC will do much with "regulation by bandwidth". This
R&O reinforces the basic subbands-by-mode idea, and just moves the
dividing line.

- I don't think the FCC will do anything with CTT's "no
subbands-by-mode" proposal, for the same reasons.

- The available space for *data* modes is decreased.

- The foreign 'phones will move even lower in the band, to get away
from USA 'phone QRM.

- We'll probably hear more "hi-fi SSB" and AM on 75 meters, because
there will be more room for them.

73 de Jim, N2EY



The foreign phone ops won't be able to move lower to escape us on 80, as we
have been given the whole phone subband. OK, in some countries the CW
subband isn't obligatory, but I doubt if they will go down there.

One down, three more to go (40, 20 and 15). True we got 25kHz more phone on
40, which I am grateful for, but that's still well short of what any other
country has, and on 15 only the subbands for the lower classes moved, not
the bottom edge of phone. Of course, on 20 there was no change, as there
was no Novice subband to begin with.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

Iitoi wrote:
"Dee Flint" wrote in message
. ..

I particularly like the Novice/Tech+ getting more CW bandwidth.

On 80m they used to have 50kHz pretty much to themselves.

Yep, and that was just the problem. They were there pretty much by
themselves. Oh, you heard the stories about the benevolent Extras
cruising by and handing out that first QSO like Santa Claus in the
Macy's Parade tossing candy to the kiddies, but those were just
stories.

(Of course you could
have dropped a bucket of grenades on 3675-3725 and never touched a single Novice
or Tech 99% of the time.)

Litpoi wants to kill off the Novices and Tech plusses with a bucket of
grenades.

Now they'll have 75kHz on 80m, (a whopping increase of 25kHz) and they'll have

That's a 50% increase. In any other context, N2EY would claim that 3%
was ultra-significant. I guess different people have different ideas
about what is significant.

to share it with a host of ****ed-off displaced traffic nets,

CW traffic nets? Don't kid yourself. They can look at it as a
recruitment opportunity. Best thing that ever happened to them.

RTTY/data
operators, all the other Generals who were already there, probably some
displaced Canadian phone nets,

Out of the FCC's jurisdiction.

and the W1AW bulldozer.

Well within the FCC's jurisdiction. Or you could look at the bright
side. When W1AW asks if the frequency is in use, the Novice could
answer, "Yes, but we've never have mattered."

What few who migrate
down there (I deem it less than 2 dozen anyhow) may not share your "particular
like" for the move.

Fair enough. The ARRL told the FCC to get off the pot and address the
petitions. They did.

Slow Code wrote in news:6tgXg.8071$Y24.103
@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:

"Iitoi" wrote in
ink.net:

80M and 40M phone band expansion

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-06-149A1.doc


I don't know if we'll get Mad right away but it's clear the FCC and the
ARRL want to drive all good hams out of the service. Little by little
they'll take away the non-phone portions of the bands and hand it over to
the phone users. Like a frog in a pot of water that's raised to boiling
point, one day us real hams will find we have to place to communicate on
the ham bands that doesn't sound like Citizens Band.

SC


Here's a reality check.

On 80m the rest of the world, except Canada, has always had phone down to
3600 as far back as I can remember, and we are merely joining them. The VE
phone ops still have to stay above 3700, I think.

On 40m the international bandplans have phone down to 7040 except in Region
3 where it is 7030. The only countries that I know of where you can't use
phone down to 7040 are Mexico (7050) and the USA (now 7125 after the
change).

US hams outside Region 2 have had phone down to 7075 for years, and I am on
record as suggesting that we should have that in the mainland US. It's hard
to see why not when you actually look at what the rest of the world is
doing.

At the same time countries in Region 1 aren't supposed to get access to
7100-7200 until the middle of 2007. Many of them already have, but for
those that haven't, a phone subband that goes down to 7125 still doesn't
even reach the top edge of their whole band. Doubtless some of them will be
late in implementing the extra spectrum, so forced split working will drag
on a while longer. How would you like it if your 40m CW allocation were on
frequencies that were off limits to the DX?

On 20m and 15m we still have 50 kHz less phone on each band than all other
countries. Although General and Advanced got bigger phone subbands on 15
(as well as 80 and 40), the bottom edge of phone didn't move on 15 (or 20).

73 de Alun, N3KIP

(20wpm Extra, 100% phone op)

Slow Code wrote:
"Iitoi" wrote in
ink.net:

80M and 40M phone band expansion

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-06-149A1.doc


I don't know if we'll get Mad right away but it's clear the FCC and the
ARRL want to drive all good hams out of the service. Little by little
they'll take away the non-phone portions of the bands and hand it over to
the phone users.

Nonsense. The CW bands are not exactly
overcrowded (or have you been listening there).

73, Phil w7ox