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Trane furnace radio/TV interference
modelman wrote:
Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Good point! There are FCC rules regarding interference / EMI and Trane may
have flagrantly ignored them. Maybe a threatening letter to the Customer Service Department written with the help of those of us who are amateur radio / electrical engineering types would force them to finally do the right thing. Smarty "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Smarty wrote:
Good point! There are FCC rules regarding interference / EMI and Trane may have flagrantly ignored them. Maybe a threatening letter to the Customer Service Department written with the help of those of us who are amateur radio / electrical engineering types would force them to finally do the right thing. Smarty "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark First, I would get a schematic of the electronics/wiring/specs/and installation instructions for the specific model (web is a good place maybe.) More of a chance the installer has made an error in the installation, grounding, shielding, etc., could save you from the possibility of "crying wolf" too soon... I suspect the engineers of using more caution in the design of the unit, then the installers in the installation of the unit. JS |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark,
I had a severe interference MF to HF from a neighbours gas heater unit. Not sure what it was that was causing it but it was being effectively radiated by the external cables, power and control. I traced the interference to the unit using a portable rx. I silenced it by wrapping both cables tightly around a 6 inch ferrite rod. The cables held in place by cable ties and tape. Hope this helps. 73 Alan VK6BN "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Nice thought, but I went a bit down that road--I'm fuzzy about the specific
details but for one reason or another the people that I spoke to didn't give me anything positive. Something about the generation of RF interference not applying to a product like a furnace. Since this has been a problem for so long and Trane has not been mandated to fix it lends some weight to what I was told. I did tell the Trane Rep that I was going to contact someone in higher management (VP etc) and issue a complaint at that level----didn't phase him. Then I put in my cable line and didn't follow up. For those of you still aggravated by the RF noise why not try this route? I guess that if you go the way of the Small Claims Court you probably have to sue the installer as well as Trane and it would have to be for a complete replacement (one without the problem)or a removal and money refunded. MLD "Smarty" wrote in message ... Good point! There are FCC rules regarding interference / EMI and Trane may have flagrantly ignored them. Maybe a threatening letter to the Customer Service Department written with the help of those of us who are amateur radio / electrical engineering types would force them to finally do the right thing. Smarty "Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE I'm pretty sure these motors don't have brushes and are electronically commutated and the electronics are causing the EMI... Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
MLD wrote:
Nice thought, but I went a bit down that road--I'm fuzzy about the specific details but for one reason or another the people that I spoke to didn't give me anything positive. Something about the generation of RF interference not applying to a product like a furnace. Anything that generates RF inside the USA is regulated by the FCC. If your cat's butt emits RF in the USA it's regulated by the FCC. -- "A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle." -- George William Curtis |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE I'm pretty sure these motors don't have brushes and are electronically commutated and the electronics are causing the EMI... Mark Hi Mark, Modern HVAC, dishwashers, washing machines,ect. use variable speed drives, which increases the efficiency of the devices. The increased efficiency produces increased RFI due to the switching action of the solid state devices (SCR's, BJT's, IGBJT's.ect). My washing machine drives me crazy on Sat. morning on HF as my maid does the weekly wash. As for what you can do? I don't know, it would require vast amounts of filtering at the drives, I am sure that Trane and other mfgrs are not willing invest in. This is completely different from the usual thermostat interference, and will be much more difficult to get rid of. Gary N4AST |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE I'm pretty sure these motors don't have brushes and are electronically commutated and the electronics are causing the EMI... Mark Hi Mark, Modern HVAC, dishwashers, washing machines,ect. use variable speed drives, which increases the efficiency of the devices. The increased efficiency produces increased RFI due to the switching action of the solid state devices (SCR's, BJT's, IGBJT's.ect). My washing machine drives me crazy on Sat. morning on HF as my maid does the weekly wash. As for what you can do? I don't know, it would require vast amounts of filtering at the drives, I am sure that Trane and other mfgrs are not willing invest in. This is completely different from the usual thermostat interference, and will be much more difficult to get rid of. Gary N4AST |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Mark" wrote in message oups.com... modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. It is well known that PWM systems generate strong harmonics throughout the radio spectrum, resulting in radio interference. However, properly designed PWM systems include filtering and shielding to suppress the radio frequency currents from the wiring. I contacted my installer, who is totally unfamiliar with the problem. The electrician who was sent to my house to investigate the problem also doesn't understand what's going on. I had to explain the difference between an RF ground and dc or house ground to him. Although everything appears to be well grounded from a dc perspective, I suspect that portions of the system are radiating RF energy. Several days ago I emailed Trane about the problem, but haven't received any response. Although there has been past discussion in this group about radio/TV interference emanating from Trane high efficiency gas furnaces, I haven't seen any definitive fix. Does anyone know if Trane has a fix for this problem. Do they have a shielded cable and or rf filter kit to suppress this noise? Since my system is under warranty, I won't attempt any modiifcations to the system. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks. Trane should be made to fix this and recall all the units that have been installed. I can pick this interference up on a 2 meter receiver in my car for blocks. The FCC should bust them if they don't fix it... I cross posted this to some of the amateur radio groups. Mark with the punce gotcha do u hav anyting cognet two say? -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Interesting discussion, folks....
As a controls engineer and High-Voltage electrician.... as well as delving into HVAC control of late... here's my observations... These manufacturers will always take the cheapest route possible and damn the consequences. This is particularly true in power and control systems. A whole lot of manufacturers are moving toward PWM drives on their blowers in particular. Many solutions are an 'on-board' frequency chopper that is integral with the blower's motor. These choppers are cheaply built and cheaply engineered. I suppose they thought RFI and EMI would be insignificant due to the control being mounted on the motor... but they're noisy as hell. Suggestions: Replace the power cables with a shielded, VFD rated cable. Belden makes a wide variety... I think they're called the VFD classic line. Pay close attention the unit and cable grounding. Check to be certain your house ground and neutral connections are only tied together at the service entrance panel of your home. My 2 cents... Jake |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Jake" wrote in message news:xB85h.54$xD.43@trndny08... Interesting discussion, folks.... As a controls engineer and High-Voltage electrician.... as well as delving into HVAC control of late... here's my observations... These manufacturers will always take the cheapest route possible and damn the consequences. This is particularly true in power and control systems. A whole lot of manufacturers are moving toward PWM drives on their blowers in particular. Many solutions are an 'on-board' frequency chopper that is integral with the blower's motor. These choppers are cheaply built and cheaply engineered. I suppose they thought RFI and EMI would be insignificant due to the control being mounted on the motor... but they're noisy as hell. Suggestions: Replace the power cables with a shielded, VFD rated cable. Belden makes a wide variety... I think they're called the VFD classic line. Pay close attention the unit and cable grounding. Check to be certain your house ground and neutral connections are only tied together at the service entrance panel of your home. My 2 cents... Jake As Jake said.... with the addition of.... Make sure that you have proper earth grounds for your power, and the HAM rigs/shack. That will go a long way towards eliminating RFI. Make sure that all the bonding screws in the furnace are clean and tight, make sure that the furnace has a proper ground also. When I put the shack together, I drove a seperate 8ft copper ground rod, and silver brazed #6 solid copper to it, then silver brazed the wire to the copper ground buss on the back of the bench. All equipment grounded.....no problem. de n6ojn |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"clifto" wrote in message ... MLD wrote: Nice thought, but I went a bit down that road--I'm fuzzy about the specific details but for one reason or another the people that I spoke to didn't give me anything positive. Something about the generation of RF interference not applying to a product like a furnace. Anything that generates RF inside the USA is regulated by the FCC. If your cat's butt emits RF in the USA it's regulated by the FCC. Wrong. If the cat's butt emits RF, it's regulated by the FCC. But, digital equipment used only in transportation vehicles - busses, cars, aircraft - and equipment used in appliances - HVAC equipment mentioned specifically - are exempt from Radio Frequency Device regulations. The rule says "....are exempt from the specific technical standards and other requirements contained in this part. The operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the device is causing harmful interference". As to harmful interference, just because the noise floor rises 20db for 5 seconds on a 50 kHz segment of 20 meters when a bus passes your house, it isn't going to be considered harmful interference. As much as you might like to think that it is, a detectable signal from your neighbors Air Conditioner isn't going to be considered "harmful interference". A carrier that obliterates a specific, used - as in "there's a repeater 3 miles away running 200 watts on 444.600, and the carrier from the Carrier (or Trane) nukes it" - frequency might result in a letter. Just " 'cause you can hear it" ain't gonna cut it. 47CFR15.103 |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Hi again Mark,
I think Jake is on the right track, whatever the source of noise inside the unit its the mechanism that radiates the noise that needs to be attended to. In my case it was the external cables, choking them off with ferrite sorted out my problem. To suppress the noise at source within the unit seems a bit hard for me. I also suspect there may be more than one noise source in the box. 73 Alan VK6BN "Mark" wrote Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: /s/ DD, W1MCE Mark Mark: A quick check of the web turned up a site with posts dealing with the same problem you are experiencing, it seems someone was able to make some noticeable improvements in the rf interference generated--but not totally eliminate... Just might be worth you time time to look, the link I will paste is a long one, if it wraps you may have to copy and paste both lines into the address bar of your browser and make sure there have been no breaks, spaces, caused the whole link. Hope this helps... http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...eb8ab594ac0781 Regards, JS |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Alan Taylor wrote:
Hi again Mark, I think Jake is on the right track, whatever the source of noise inside the unit its the mechanism that radiates the noise that needs to be attended to. In my case it was the external cables, choking them off with ferrite sorted out my problem. To suppress the noise at source within the unit seems a bit hard for me. I also suspect there may be more than one noise source in the box. 73 Alan VK6BN "Mark" wrote Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM Hi, Then, shielding, choking, bypassing with caps come to mind. It's all by trial and error. O'scope may come in handy. |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Yes, the FCC not only has cognizance, but quite legitimately does not want
to see products throwing a lot of EMI out which cause you and perhaps your neighbors to have reception issues. If I were at Trane handling Customer Service and was threatened with FCC action, I would react. Smarty "clifto" wrote in message ... MLD wrote: Nice thought, but I went a bit down that road--I'm fuzzy about the specific details but for one reason or another the people that I spoke to didn't give me anything positive. Something about the generation of RF interference not applying to a product like a furnace. Anything that generates RF inside the USA is regulated by the FCC. If your cat's butt emits RF in the USA it's regulated by the FCC. -- "A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle." -- George William Curtis |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Hi, Then, shielding, choking, bypassing with caps come to mind. It's all by trial and error. O'scope may come in handy. Well that's my concern. There are more and more of these kinds of units being installed everyday. We can't "home brew" a fix for all of them. Someone needs to get to the FCC or to the manufacterer to fix this at the source before it gets worse. Mark |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Noon-Air wrote:
SNIPPED As Jake said.... with the addition of.... Make sure that you have proper earth grounds for your power, and the HAM rigs/shack. That will go a long way towards eliminating RFI. Make sure that all the bonding screws in the furnace are clean and tight, make sure that the furnace has a proper ground also. When I put the shack together, I drove a seperate 8ft copper ground rod, and silver brazed #6 solid copper to it, then silver brazed the wire to the copper ground buss on the back of the bench. All equipment grounded.....no problem. de n6ojn As you describe your setup it does meet USA National Electrical Code. Your home should have ONLY one earth connection, not two! As you describe it, your house presumably has the electrical service panel grounded to an 8 feet long ground rod where the service enters the house. You seem to have added a second 8 feet ground rod to your home specifically for the Ham station. Check with a local electrician for specific compliance issues. /s/ DD |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
wrote in message ups.com... Mark wrote: Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: Several months ago I had a high efficiency Trane XV90 natural gas furnace and heat pump installed. Since the weather has recently been cold enough for the gas furnace to provide heat, I have been experiencing severe radio interference. The interference wipes out AM broadcast reception throughout my house. I also see snow on a TV connected to an external antenna. The radio noise occurs as soon as the draft inducer motor starts up; the pitch of the interference is related to the motor speed. The draft inducer motor is a dc motor driven by a PWM controller on the main circuit board. ... SNIPPED ... DC motors are notorious noise generators. Those of us who used to be mobile when 6 VDC was the value of a car battery, and alternators did not exist, will attest to the facts of generator [DC motor] noise. A DC motor uses brushes to contact windings within the motor. As the motor turns the brushes continually make and break current in the rotating armature [inductance]. This making and breaking creates a very wide HF and lower VHF noise spectrum. [Lots of sparks]. The solution, in the olden days, was a coaxial capacitor mounted directly to the frame of the motor with the DC power running through the capacitor. I recall the capacitor was about 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches long. Sprague made such a critter. Hope this history helps. /s/ DD, W1MCE I'm pretty sure these motors don't have brushes and are electronically commutated and the electronics are causing the EMI... Mark Hi Mark, Modern HVAC, dishwashers, washing machines,ect. use variable speed drives, which increases the efficiency of the devices. The increased efficiency produces increased RFI due to the switching action of the solid state devices (SCR's, BJT's, IGBJT's.ect). My washing machine drives me crazy on Sat. morning on HF as my maid does the weekly wash. As for what you can do? I don't know, it would require vast amounts of filtering at the drives, I am sure that Trane and other mfgrs are not willing invest in. This is completely different from the usual thermostat interference, and will be much more difficult to get rid of. Gary N4AST Gentlemen Hi and there is nothing that could be done to force OEMs for clean up this interference (RFI?) That is nice but you and I if interfere with some one TV in Neighborhood FCC would be all over our ass thanks for equal justice KA2AYS |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Dave" wrote in message . .. Noon-Air wrote: SNIPPED As Jake said.... with the addition of.... Make sure that you have proper earth grounds for your power, and the HAM rigs/shack. That will go a long way towards eliminating RFI. Make sure that all the bonding screws in the furnace are clean and tight, make sure that the furnace has a proper ground also. When I put the shack together, I drove a seperate 8ft copper ground rod, and silver brazed #6 solid copper to it, then silver brazed the wire to the copper ground buss on the back of the bench. All equipment grounded.....no problem. de n6ojn As you describe your setup it does meet USA National Electrical Code. Your home should have ONLY one earth connection, not two! Actually as I live in a lightening prone area, my home has several earth grounds as do most of the other buildings in the area. As you describe it, your house presumably has the electrical service panel grounded to an 8 feet long ground rod where the service enters the house. The main service panel has 2 ground rods tied to the same buss, The TV cable entrance has a seperate earth ground, as does the telephone entrance, and the sub panel in the garage. You seem to have added a second 8 feet ground rod to your home specifically for the Ham station. Yes and that one too. Check with a local electrician for specific compliance issues. done did... the sparky is the one that put the extra rods in for the service entrance and the garage sub panel, and the city inspector signed off on it. /s/ DD |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"John Smith" wrote in message ... Mark wrote: Dave wrote: Mark wrote: modelman wrote: /s/ DD, W1MCE Mark Mark: A quick check of the web turned up a site with posts dealing with the same problem you are experiencing, it seems someone was able to make some noticeable improvements in the rf interference generated--but not totally eliminate... Just might be worth you time time to look, the link I will paste is a long one, if it wraps you may have to copy and paste both lines into the address bar of your browser and make sure there have been no breaks, spaces, caused the whole link. Hope this helps... http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...eb8ab594ac0781 Regards, JS --Followed your link and was surprised to see that my comments, posted over a year ago, are still floating around cyber space. Obviously apparent, that the Trane RF noise problem hasn't been addressed by them. What is disconcerting is that they have done nothing to minimize or alleviate the problem and after more than a year are still producing furnaces with a known RF noise generating inducer motor. Clearly a case of COST vs Customer satisfaction---Charge more for the furnace, if that what it takes, and go back to the motor that didn't have this problem. In my case, I had a perfect back-to-back comparison--in the morning the first furnace worked without incident--by noon, the new furnace was screwing up my (rabbit ears) kitchen TV. I took a look at the new furnace and immediately saw that the inducer motor was different--size and configuration. With a little bit of experimentation, I finally narrowed the cause down to the inducer motor. The installer had no clue, was very helpful and cooperative in interfacing with Trane. Since I must have been early in the "new motor" time frame, Trane shot-gunned the problem trying to eliminate it, ----new control board, verifying electrical grounds, replacing the shielded motor harness (the only thing that showed some signs of improvement). I guess at that point they must have figured out that it was a bigger problem then they expected and that's when the Trane Rep stopped returning my calls. It was easier to run a cable line to the TV then to continue dealing with the installer, who was shrugging his shoulders by this time, and the vanishing Trane Rep MLD |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Noon-Air" wrote in message . .. "Dave" wrote in message . .. Noon-Air wrote: SNIPPED As Jake said.... with the addition of.... Make sure that you have proper earth grounds for your power, and the HAM rigs/shack. That will go a long way towards eliminating RFI. Make sure that all the bonding screws in the furnace are clean and tight, make sure that the furnace has a proper ground also. When I put the shack together, I drove a seperate 8ft copper ground rod, and silver brazed #6 solid copper to it, then silver brazed the wire to the copper ground buss on the back of the bench. All equipment grounded.....no problem. de n6ojn As you describe your setup it does meet USA National Electrical Code. Your home should have ONLY one earth connection, not two! Actually as I live in a lightening prone area, my home has several earth grounds as do most of the other buildings in the area. As you describe it, your house presumably has the electrical service panel grounded to an 8 feet long ground rod where the service enters the house. The main service panel has 2 ground rods tied to the same buss, The TV cable entrance has a seperate earth ground, as does the telephone entrance, and the sub panel in the garage. You seem to have added a second 8 feet ground rod to your home specifically for the Ham station. Yes and that one too. Check with a local electrician for specific compliance issues. done did... the sparky is the one that put the extra rods in for the service entrance and the garage sub panel, and the city inspector signed off on it. Good. Enjoy your ground loops, and have fun replacing appliances the next time lightning hits close. Don't even think of surviving a direct strike. |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Mark" wrote in message oups.com... Well that's my concern. There are more and more of these kinds of units being installed everyday. We can't "home brew" a fix for all of them. Someone needs to get to the FCC or to the manufacterer to fix this at the source before it gets worse. Maybe "turn them in" to the FCC for a _finders fee_? :O) -zero |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
AKS wrote:
SNIPPED Gentlemen Hi and there is nothing that could be done to force OEMs for clean up this interference (RFI?) That is nice but you and I if interfere with some one TV in Neighborhood FCC would be all over our ass thanks for equal justice KA2AYS Not quite true! I run 1KW on low bands [75 and 20 meters]. I have a tuner and low pass filters in line. My station is properly grounded to the service panel ground/earth rod. This connection is also the equipotential surface for the operating position. My station meets ALL FCC requirements. If a neighbor's tv, phone, stereo, or whatever, picks up my transmissions the problem is with their equipment and I am NOT responsible for correcting the situation. I will advise them regarding what needs to be done at their end and at their expense. The best demonstration is to invite them into my station and have them witness my tv, phone, stereo etc., being interference free. The best demonstration is an RFI free home station. We, hams, are not responsible for deficiencies in consumer electronics. That rests with the manufacturer. The next time you buy a stereo read the Part 15 compliance statement! Most likely it states, I paraphrase, this equipment MAY receive interfering signals from near by transmitters. Buyer Beware! /s/ DD |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Dave wrote:
AKS wrote: SNIPPED Gentlemen Hi and there is nothing that could be done to force OEMs for clean up this interference (RFI?) That is nice but you and I if interfere with some one TV in Neighborhood FCC would be all over our ass thanks for equal justice KA2AYS Not quite true! I run 1KW on low bands [75 and 20 meters]. I have a tuner and low pass filters in line. My station is properly grounded to the service panel ground/earth rod. This connection is also the equipotential surface for the operating position. My station meets ALL FCC requirements. If a neighbor's tv, phone, stereo, or whatever, picks up my transmissions the problem is with their equipment and I am NOT responsible for correcting the situation. I will advise them regarding what needs to be done at their end and at their expense. The best demonstration is to invite them into my station and have them witness my tv, phone, stereo etc., being interference free. The best demonstration is an RFI free home station. We, hams, are not responsible for deficiencies in consumer electronics. That rests with the manufacturer. The next time you buy a stereo read the Part 15 compliance statement! Most likely it states, I paraphrase, this equipment MAY receive interfering signals from near by transmitters. Buyer Beware! /s/ DD It should also state that the device may not emit any interfering signals. Dave WD9BDZ |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mo Hoaner wrote:
"clifto" wrote... Anything that generates RF inside the USA is regulated by the FCC. If your cat's butt emits RF in the USA it's regulated by the FCC. Wrong. If the cat's butt emits RF, it's regulated by the FCC. But, digital equipment used only in transportation vehicles - busses, cars, aircraft - and equipment used in appliances - HVAC equipment mentioned specifically - are exempt from Radio Frequency Device regulations. The rule says "....are exempt from the specific technical standards and other requirements contained in this part. The operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the device is causing harmful interference". Interesting. I've never heard that before. Thanks for the correction. Not that that doesn't suck... -- "A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle." -- George William Curtis |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"David G. Nagel" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Snipped... It should also state that the device may not emit any interfering signals. Actually, most of the stuff being talked about here is exempted by the FCC from testing. Basically, any digital stuff in appliances, and vehicles is exempt from showing compliance. That doesn't mean it's allowed to cause harmful interference, but the exact definition of "harmful" is a grey area. Dave WD9BDZ |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mo Hoaner wrote:
"David G. Nagel" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Snipped... It should also state that the device may not emit any interfering signals. Actually, most of the stuff being talked about here is exempted by the FCC from testing. Basically, any digital stuff in appliances, and vehicles is exempt from showing compliance. That doesn't mean it's allowed to cause harmful interference, but the exact definition of "harmful" is a grey area. Dave WD9BDZ Exempt from FCC compliance testing but not from Part 15 compliance. Intentional and Unintentional radiators must comply with Part 15. There is still a permissible level of signal emitted under this Part i.e. Unlicensed two way radios. Dave WD9BDZ |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Mark wrote:
Hi, Then, shielding, choking, bypassing with caps come to mind. It's all by trial and error. O'scope may come in handy. Well that's my concern. There are more and more of these kinds of units being installed everyday. We can't "home brew" a fix for all of them. Someone needs to get to the FCC or to the manufacterer to fix this at the source before it gets worse. Mark Yup, EMI pollution! |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Dave" wrote in message . .. snip As you describe your setup it does meet USA National Electrical Code. Your home should have ONLY one earth connection, not two! /s/ DD I don't know about that! I had some work done which involved an upgraded service entrance and new breaker panel. The electrician added a second ground via a ground stake beneath the panel, despite the original (1967) ground via the cold water inlet pipe being intact and sound. (I will concede that he didn't quote chapter and verse in the NEC; he may have been following a local code requirement. I know he wasn't padding the bill, as he was doing the job at the behest of my son, from whose business he was buying his supplies. (Still does.) "Sal" |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
Motors with brushes are "incidental radiators" according to the FCC. I
believe PWM or variable frequency drive motors would be considered "unintentional radiators" in that they intentionally generate a radio frequency (9 kHz to 3,000,000MHz) but do not intend to radiate it. (see definitions at http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/15/3/). Incidental radiators must use good engineering practice to minimize interference (see http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/15/13/). Digital devices (I think motor control systems qualify as digital devices) in appliances are exempt from the emission limits for unintentional radiators (see http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/15/103/), though the user must cease operation if the FCC finds it is causing interference. |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Noon-Air" wrote in message . .. "Dave" wrote in message . .. Noon-Air wrote: SNIPPED As Jake said.... with the addition of.... Make sure that you have proper earth grounds for your power, and the HAM rigs/shack. That will go a long way towards eliminating RFI. Make sure that all the bonding screws in the furnace are clean and tight, make sure that the furnace has a proper ground also. When I put the shack together, I drove a seperate 8ft copper ground rod, and silver brazed #6 solid copper to it, then silver brazed the wire to the copper ground buss on the back of the bench. All equipment grounded.....no problem. de n6ojn As you describe your setup it does meet USA National Electrical Code. Your home should have ONLY one earth connection, not two! Actually as I live in a lightening prone area, my home has several earth grounds as do most of the other buildings in the area. As you describe it, your house presumably has the electrical service panel grounded to an 8 feet long ground rod where the service enters the house. The main service panel has 2 ground rods tied to the same buss, The TV cable entrance has a seperate earth ground, as does the telephone entrance, and the sub panel in the garage. You seem to have added a second 8 feet ground rod to your home specifically for the Ham station. Yes and that one too. Check with a local electrician for specific compliance issues. done did... the sparky is the one that put the extra rods in for the service entrance and the garage sub panel, and the city inspector signed off on it. /s/ DD You bonded all the grounds, eh? |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference
"Oscar_Lives" wrote in message news:UKS5h.278091$1i1.256793@attbi_s72... "Noon-Air" wrote in message . .. "Dave" wrote in message . .. Noon-Air wrote: SNIPPED As Jake said.... with the addition of.... Make sure that you have proper earth grounds for your power, and the HAM rigs/shack. That will go a long way towards eliminating RFI. Make sure that all the bonding screws in the furnace are clean and tight, make sure that the furnace has a proper ground also. When I put the shack together, I drove a seperate 8ft copper ground rod, and silver brazed #6 solid copper to it, then silver brazed the wire to the copper ground buss on the back of the bench. All equipment grounded.....no problem. de n6ojn As you describe your setup it does meet USA National Electrical Code. Your home should have ONLY one earth connection, not two! Actually as I live in a lightening prone area, my home has several earth grounds as do most of the other buildings in the area. As you describe it, your house presumably has the electrical service panel grounded to an 8 feet long ground rod where the service enters the house. The main service panel has 2 ground rods tied to the same buss, The TV cable entrance has a seperate earth ground, as does the telephone entrance, and the sub panel in the garage. You seem to have added a second 8 feet ground rod to your home specifically for the Ham station. Yes and that one too. Check with a local electrician for specific compliance issues. done did... the sparky is the one that put the extra rods in for the service entrance and the garage sub panel, and the city inspector signed off on it. /s/ DD You bonded all the grounds, eh? no, the RF grounds are not bonded to the power grounds. |
Trane furnace radio/TV interference sunds liek sc to me
Dave wrote: AKS wrote: SNIPPED Gentlemen Hi and there is nothing that could be done to force OEMs for clean up this interference (RFI?) That is nice but you and I if interfere with some one TV in Neighborhood FCC would be all over our ass thanks for equal justice KA2AYS Not quite true! I run 1KW on low bands [75 and 20 meters]. I have a tuner and low pass filters in line. My station is properly grounded to the service panel ground/earth rod. This connection is also the equipotential surface for the operating position. My station meets ALL FCC requirements. If a neighbor's tv, phone, stereo, or whatever, picks up my transmissions the problem is with their equipment and I am NOT responsible for correcting the situation. I will advise them regarding what needs to be done at their end and at their expense. The best demonstration is to invite them into my station and have them witness my tv, phone, stereo etc., being interference free. The best demonstration is an RFI free home station. We, hams, are not responsible for deficiencies in consumer electronics. That rests with the manufacturer. The next time you buy a stereo read the Part 15 compliance statement! Most likely it states, I paraphrase, this equipment MAY receive interfering signals from near by transmitters. Buyer Beware! /s/ DD daev you need sum quiot time on you mothrerfukcer! fi you were ym naibor i wood kike your ass mothrerfukcer but yuo are two ignoriant to even railize it gte hlep |
id theft isa crime
an_old_friend wrote: Dave wrote: AKS wrote: SNIPPED Gentlemen Hi and there is nothing that could be done to force OEMs for clean up this interference (RFI?) That is nice but you and I if interfere with some one TV in Neighborhood FCC would be all over our ass thanks for equal justice KA2AYS Not quite true! I run 1KW on low bands [75 and 20 meters]. I have a tuner and low pass filters in line. My station is properly grounded to the service panel ground/earth rod. This connection is also the equipotential surface for the operating position. My station meets ALL FCC requirements. If a neighbor's tv, phone, stereo, or whatever, picks up my transmissions the problem is with their equipment and I am NOT responsible for correcting the situation. I will advise them regarding what needs to be done at their end and at their expense. The best demonstration is to invite them into my station and have them witness my tv, phone, stereo etc., being interference free. The best demonstration is an RFI free home station. We, hams, are not responsible for deficiencies in consumer electronics. That rests with the manufacturer. The next time you buy a stereo read the Part 15 compliance statement! Most likely it states, I paraphrase, this equipment MAY receive interfering signals from near by transmitters. Buyer Beware! /s/ DD daev you need sum quiot time on you mothrerfukcer! fi you were ym naibor i wood kike your ass mothrerfukcer but yuo are two ignoriant to even railize it gte hlep id theft isa crime |
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