BAD IDEA for ham radio in general ( was Contact the FCC andTell Them to get rid of CW Test and Requirements)
 

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
While the intent may be good, this is a REALLY BAD idea ...

Flooding the FCC Commissioner's e-mail inboxes with such
letters will only **** them off ... at ALL of ham radio, not
just pro-code-test or no-code test factions.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do this ... and this
is DEFINITELY the WRONG way.

Those who support the elimination of the Morse test from US
FCC rules would be well-advised to join NCI
http://www.nocode.org
and follow the news.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.

Ya gotta get your people under control, Carl! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

While the intent may be good, this is a REALLY BAD idea ...

Flooding the FCC Commissioner's e-mail inboxes with such letters
will only **** them off ... at ALL of ham radio, not just
pro-code-test or no-code test factions.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do this ... and this is
DEFINITELY the WRONG way.

Those who support the elimination of the Morse test from US FCC
rules would be well-advised to join NCI http://www.nocode.org and
follow the news.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to best
approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the membership
informed when we have finalized those discussions.

Ya gotta get your people under control, Carl! 8^)


I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "my people" ... the
ownership of people was abolished many, many years ago.

Not a very good deflection try.

Your people are the people on your side of this argument, quite simply.

These are the people I made a note of some time ago when I wrote to
youand some others about what comes next for the ARS.

These are the people that while they may not share all your views,
arereally excited about what you have played a large part in bringing
tofruition. It's like a 50 percent discount, and they want it bad. Many
would like evn more. And whether you like or not, you have given
themgreat encouragement through your efforts.

Nothing stands still. Where does the ARS go from here? I see lots
ofpostings from people who want to do bizzare, illogical, and plain
wronginterpretation of rules, I see calls for elinimation of the
subbands,lots of good stuff.


So yes, they are very much "your" people, Carl. And unless you get them
under control, they may do grave damage to the ARS.

Do you think that they are going to pay one bit of attention to people
like us PCTA's? It's up to you as a leader to get them under control.
Good luck.


I am simply trying to provide good advice to folks who might be
overly eager and get carried away in ways that would be bad for ALL
of ham radio.

Good idea, I agree 100 percent.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
snippage
So yes, they are very much "your" people, Carl. And unless you get them
under control, they may do grave damage to the ARS.

Do you think that they are going to pay one bit of attention to people
like us PCTA's? It's up to you as a leader to get them under control.
Good luck.


Maybe Carl will be best remembered as the father of ham radio's Pandora's Box

Tht's what I think.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

While the intent may be good, this is a REALLY BAD idea ...

Flooding the FCC Commissioner's e-mail inboxes with such letters
will only **** them off ... at ALL of ham radio, not just
pro-code-test or no-code test factions.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do this ... and this is
DEFINITELY the WRONG way.

Those who support the elimination of the Morse test from US FCC
rules would be well-advised to join NCI http://www.nocode.org and
follow the news.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to best
approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the membership
informed when we have finalized those discussions.

Ya gotta get your people under control, Carl! 8^)


I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "my people" ... the
ownership of people was abolished many, many years ago.

Not a very good deflection try.

Your people are the people on your side of this argument, quite simply.

"My people" (meaning NCI in this case, with the recognition
that I don't own them) DON'T advocate illegal "protest" operaton,
"mail-bombing" the FCC Commissioners, etc.

So yes, they are very much "your" people, Carl. And unless you get them
under control, they may do grave damage to the ARS.

A few folks here on usenet who advocate things (perhaps just to troll)
don't a grave threat to ham radio constitute.

Do you think that they are going to pay one bit of attention to people
like us PCTA's? It's up to you as a leader to get them under control.
Good luck.

I have posted, discouraging illegal "protest" operations, "mail-bombing"
the FCC, etc. What else would you have me do?

As I told Kim, if someone operates illegally, they deserve what they get.
Enforcement is the domain of Reilly and his associates at the FCC, *not*
of NCI (or me).

I will ALWAYS try my best to discourage bad, or even ill-advised,
behavior, but at the end of the day all I can do is advise ...

I am simply trying to provide good advice to folks who might be
overly eager and get carried away in ways that would be bad for ALL
of ham radio.

Good idea, I agree 100 percent.

Glad you agree ... now don't bust my chops over things you *know*
I can't control, just because we disagree on the Morse requirement :-)

73,
Carl - wk3c

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

As the visible head of the No Code test movement, you have a
responsibilty to ensure an orderly transition. Right now what is
starting to happen is something that I saw as logically following the
elimination of the code testing requirement. And it is coming about
directly as a result of that elimination.

Personally I'd be telling people that the rules are changing, they
haven't been eliminated. And I'd be doing it an awful lot.

Gee ... I thought I *have* been doing that ...

Carl - wk3c

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

As the visible head of the No Code test movement, you have a
responsibilty to ensure an orderly transition. Right now what is
starting to happen is something that I saw as logically following the
elimination of the code testing requirement. And it is coming about
directly as a result of that elimination.

Personally I'd be telling people that the rules are changing, they
haven't been eliminated. And I'd be doing it an awful lot.


Gee ... I thought I *have* been doing that ...

I'd be willing to bet that most people here figure the people you are
telling are the PCTA's. You really need to tell the others who seem to
think it's open season.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Brian Kelly wrote:


Maybe Carl will be best remembered as the father of ham radio's Pandora's Box


A Pandora's box indeed.

There is a whole group of people out ther who have been greatly
encouraged by the dropping of the Morse code requirement.

Some of them appear unencumbered by the legal process. How much
credibility would a PCTA have with them. It is now up to the NCTA's to
get some control.

If they want there to be some control.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

As the visible head of the No Code test movement, you have a
responsibilty to ensure an orderly transition. Right now what is
starting to happen is something that I saw as logically following the
elimination of the code testing requirement. And it is coming about
directly as a result of that elimination.

Personally I'd be telling people that the rules are changing, they
haven't been eliminated. And I'd be doing it an awful lot.


Gee ... I thought I *have* been doing that ...

I'd be willing to bet that most people here figure the people you are
telling are the PCTA's. You really need to tell the others who seem to
think it's open season.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Let me just add this Carl of NCI. If you DONT get your mob of ignorant
cbers in line then the real hams will start their own little group. If you
think we are going to sit by and watch ham radio be turned into a cess pool
like 11m, you are badly mistaken. Expect FCC action. Expect on the air
wars.

Did you enjoy your part in destroying ham radio?

Dan/W4NTI

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

N2EY wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

While the intent may be good, this is a REALLY BAD idea ...

I agree, Carl. But will they listen to you?

Flooding the FCC Commissioner's e-mail inboxes with such
letters will only

[make them angry]

at ALL of ham radio, not
just pro-code-test or no-code test factions.

Agreed! But will they listen to you? And what do they have to lose?

There is a right way and a wrong way to do this ... and this
is DEFINITELY the WRONG way.

There are lots of wrong ways, including things like breaking the
rules, emailing the wrong people, putting together proposals that are
not well-developed, etc. Heck, I cringe to read the comments sometimes
because of the obvious lack of spell- and grammar-checking.

Those who support the elimination of the Morse test from US
FCC rules would be well-advised to join NCI
http://www.nocode.org
and follow the news.

But will tney listen to you, Carl? How many have joined? There are
over 687,000 US amateurs, plus an unknown number of prospective hams -
how many have actually joined your organization?

And of course there is the big question of.....WHY!

Because the organization exists for the sole stated purpose of ending all code
testing for any class of license. It costs nothing but a few mouse clicks to
join, but as far as anyone outside the organization knows there are less than
4000 members worldwide (look at the highest member number you see and subtract
1000). That's how many have ever been members, not how many are currently
active. A few members resigned after the 2000 restructuring because they
decided that 5 wpm was enough, and did not want to see total code test
elimination.

All these people
yakking here are US citizens with (I think) one exception. What is the
purpose of joining an organization that has accomplished it's apparent
sole purpose in this country?

That goal has not yet been accomplished! Element 1 or equivalent credit is
still required for all classes of US ham license with HF privileges. FCC hasn't
changed those rules yet. Heck, FCC hasn't even gotten a proposal to do so yet.


I mean how many people really care if they
have the Morse code test in Lower Sloshingbottom?

See above.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.

In other words, "join our organization and trust us to do what's best,
don't go running off half-cocked and make all of us look bad". That's
what the ARRL has been saying for decades...

NCI knows better than the rest of us.

While I don't agree with that, their BoD certainly knows more about dealing
with the FCC than those who advocate breaking the rules.

Is there an argument that can convince a PCTA to join NCI?

That's not the problem - there doesn't seem to be one that can convince some
vociferous NCTAs to join! Or even to see that their actions damage the very
cause they claim to champion.

Join No Code International! Hams for the 21st Century.

Will these "hams for the 21st Century" listen to you and toe the party
line?

They don't seem to be so far do they?

We're only talking about a vociferous few, Mike. So far. It will be interesting
to see what happens on Aug 1.

Help assure the survival and prosperity of ham radio.

I think we can agree that annoying the Commissioners, breaking the
rules, and acting like we don't know how the system works isn't going
to help the survival and prosperity of ham radio.

But that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.

Hopefully saner heads will prevail.

There's one thing about all this that puzzles me, though. The FCC made
their opinions clear back in 1999 and again in 2000. The agenda for
WRC 2003 was known more than a year in advance and the outcome for
S25.5 correctly predicted by you (Carl) as a "slam dunk". Yet your
organization is still figuring out what to do next wrt FCC?

I myself have no idea why there isn't a whole sequence of events
marked out for an orderly transition.

You mean by FCC? They don't work that way. Look how long the last restructuring
took.

Like who becomes what in the hierarchy of licenses.

Do Novices lose their licenses? Aside from CW, their test is so
rudimentary?

Tech pluses?

Lots of stuff that will become apparent as time goes on.

Nobody should lose their license. Nobody should lose operating privileges
UNLESS they are compensated for by new privileges.

Consider this: There's a whole bunch of stuff that my 1967-70 era tests didn't
cover (like PSK-31). But FCC trusts that since I have a clean record I have
kept up with the rules and regs. So why should a Novice or Tech be any
different?

How long will it take to decide, and will "your people" listen to you?
They don't have much to lose, and they don;t even think they will get
caught. Many don't understand how the system works, but think they do
and don't care about long-term effects or the image of the ARS as a
whole.

Newsgroup postings are bad enough, but some are advocating massive
spamming and rulebreaking. Is that to be the way of "hams for the 21st
century"?

Like it or not, the removal of the Morse test has removed one element of
knowledge from the licensing process. Argue with me if about the
definition of knowledge, but it is the removal of just that. Knowledge.

Skills are a form of knowledge, so there's no argument.

Sure sounds like entropy in action to me.

Exactly. Were the writtens beefed up when the code was lowered? No, just the
opposite, although folks will argue that point too.

A whole lot of people find that removal of knowledge a positive thing
for them. This includes that mythical engineer who is so busy he or she
cannot take the time to learn Morse or is so fearful of leaning
something that they may not use. Unfortunately, it also includes some
people who find that rules are for other people.

What I find most ironic is that if the proposed rule-breaking actions are
carried out, it may damage the nocodetest cause and prove what some procodetest
people have said for years.

And yes, I worry about those people. I have great concern for the
people who think that a Technician can now pick and choose where to
transmit, who think that all ya gotta do to change the rules is have
everyone email the head people at the FCC, and whatever these good folk
dream up next.

The oddest thing is that even when someone as knowledgeable as Carl, Bill or
Phil, who are "on their side" tells them they're wrong, they argue.

N0BK would call it surreal. He's gone, so I'll have to do the honors.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

As the visible head of the No Code test movement, you have a
responsibilty to ensure an orderly transition. Right now what is
starting to happen is something that I saw as logically following the
elimination of the code testing requirement. And it is coming about
directly as a result of that elimination.

Personally I'd be telling people that the rules are changing, they
haven't been eliminated. And I'd be doing it an awful lot.

Gee ... I thought I *have* been doing that ...

Carl - wk3c


You have, Carl. You have...and quite clearly.

Kim W5TIT


---
Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net
Complaints to

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
While the intent may be good, this is a REALLY BAD idea ...

Flooding the FCC Commissioner's e-mail inboxes with such
letters will only **** them off ... at ALL of ham radio, not
just pro-code-test or no-code test factions.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do this ... and this
is DEFINITELY the WRONG way.

Those who support the elimination of the Morse test from US
FCC rules would be well-advised to join NCI
http://www.nocode.org
and follow the news.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.

Ya gotta get your people under control, Carl! 8^)

Why is that?

By all the public evidence in here the pro-coders have NOT BEEN IN
CONTROL OF THEMSELVES for years. Not even close.

Someone should exercise self-control these days and only the
no code test advocates seem the most on-track.

Five days in the penalty box for you...for sticking. :-)

LHA

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:
some snippage

And of course there is the big question of.....WHY!


Because the organization exists for the sole stated purpose of ending all code
testing for any class of license. It costs nothing but a few mouse clicks to
join, but as far as anyone outside the organization knows there are less than
4000 members worldwide (look at the highest member number you see and subtract
1000). That's how many have ever been members, not how many are currently
active. A few members resigned after the 2000 restructuring because they
decided that 5 wpm was enough, and did not want to see total code test
elimination.

I understand all that, but it seems a little strange to join a group
that is facing extinction soon.


All these people
yakking here are US citizens with (I think) one exception. What is the
purpose of joining an organization that has accomplished it's apparent
sole purpose in this country?


That goal has not yet been accomplished! Element 1 or equivalent credit is
still required for all classes of US ham license with HF privileges. FCC hasn't
changed those rules yet. Heck, FCC hasn't even gotten a proposal to do so yet.

TRue, but even if it takes that two years I speak of, it doesn't seem
worth joining. Plus it seems their only goal is to eliminnate the code
test, not the transition from one state to the other.



I mean how many people really care if they
have the Morse code test in Lower Sloshingbottom?


See above.


NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.



In other words, "join our organization and trust us to do what's best,
don't go running off half-cocked and make all of us look bad". That's
what the ARRL has been saying for decades...


NCI knows better than the rest of us.


While I don't agree with that, their BoD certainly knows more about dealing
with the FCC than those who advocate breaking the rules.


Heheh, that's true

Is there an argument that can convince a PCTA to join NCI?


That's not the problem - there doesn't seem to be one that can convince some
vociferous NCTAs to join! Or even to see that their actions damage the very
cause they claim to champion.


Join No Code International! Hams for the 21st Century.



Will these "hams for the 21st Century" listen to you and toe the party
line?


They don't seem to be so far do they?


We're only talking about a vociferous few, Mike. So far. It will be interesting
to see what happens on Aug 1.


Help assure the survival and prosperity of ham radio.



I think we can agree that annoying the Commissioners, breaking the
rules, and acting like we don't know how the system works isn't going
to help the survival and prosperity of ham radio.


But that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.


Hopefully saner heads will prevail.


There's one thing about all this that puzzles me, though. The FCC made
their opinions clear back in 1999 and again in 2000. The agenda for
WRC 2003 was known more than a year in advance and the outcome for
S25.5 correctly predicted by you (Carl) as a "slam dunk". Yet your
organization is still figuring out what to do next wrt FCC?


I myself have no idea why there isn't a whole sequence of events
marked out for an orderly transition.


You mean by FCC? They don't work that way. Look how long the last restructuring
took.

Nope, I mean the NCI. Why they don't have things mapped out and know
exactly the steps that must be taken to achieve their stated purpose on
this earth. Surely THEY knew that it takes more than just changing the
treaty?


Like who becomes what in the hierarchy of licenses.

Do Novices lose their licenses? Aside from CW, their test is so
rudimentary?

Tech pluses?

Lots of stuff that will become apparent as time goes on.


Nobody should lose their license. Nobody should lose operating privileges
UNLESS they are compensated for by new privileges.

Right. But I think there should be some sort of remedial program for the
novices. After all, I would expect their final priveliges to be
equivalent to a tech plus, which of course doesn't exist anymore, at
least for testing.


Consider this: There's a whole bunch of stuff that my 1967-70 era tests didn't
cover (like PSK-31). But FCC trusts that since I have a clean record I have
kept up with the rules and regs. So why should a Novice or Tech be any
different?


How long will it take to decide, and will "your people" listen to you?
They don't have much to lose, and they don;t even think they will get
caught. Many don't understand how the system works, but think they do
and don't care about long-term effects or the image of the ARS as a
whole.


Newsgroup postings are bad enough, but some are advocating massive
spamming and rulebreaking. Is that to be the way of "hams for the 21st
century"?


Like it or not, the removal of the Morse test has removed one element of
knowledge from the licensing process. Argue with me if about the
definition of knowledge, but it is the removal of just that. Knowledge.


Skills are a form of knowledge, so there's no argument.


Sure sounds like entropy in action to me.


Exactly. Were the writtens beefed up when the code was lowered? No, just the
opposite, although folks will argue that point too.


A whole lot of people find that removal of knowledge a positive thing
for them. This includes that mythical engineer who is so busy he or she
cannot take the time to learn Morse or is so fearful of leaning
something that they may not use. Unfortunately, it also includes some
people who find that rules are for other people.


What I find most ironic is that if the proposed rule-breaking actions are
carried out, it may damage the nocodetest cause and prove what some procodetest
people have said for years.

Yup


And yes, I worry about those people. I have great concern for the
people who think that a Technician can now pick and choose where to
transmit, who think that all ya gotta do to change the rules is have
everyone email the head people at the FCC, and whatever these good folk
dream up next.


The oddest thing is that even when someone as knowledgeable as Carl, Bill or
Phil, who are "on their side" tells them they're wrong, they argue.

Right. I could be of help, but when I point out to them what to me is
obvious, and turning out to be true, I get that. And it isn't even a
personal condemnation.


N0BK would call it surreal. He's gone, so I'll have to do the honors.

It's surreal......

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , "Dan/W4NTI"
writes:

Let me just add this Carl of NCI. If you DONT get your mob of ignorant
cbers in line then the real hams will start their own little group.

So, it IS true...the Kode Klutz Klan is forming!

All along I thought it was just a funny saying...

If you
think we are going to sit by and watch ham radio be turned into a cess pool
like 11m, you are badly mistaken. Expect FCC action. Expect on the air
wars.

Expect Steamy with his PARAMILITARY ham radio?!?


Did you enjoy your part in destroying ham radio?

You certainly did...

LHA












"Ready on the left? Ready on the right? Ready on the firing line?
The flag is up, the flag is waving...you have 20 seconds..."

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:
some snippage

And of course there is the big question of.....WHY!

(snip)

I understand all that, but it seems a little strange to join a group
that is facing extinction soon.

Not if you want to help that cause along.

All these people
yakking here are US citizens with (I think) one exception. What is the
purpose of joining an organization that has accomplished it's apparent
sole purpose in this country?

That goal has not yet been accomplished! Element 1 or equivalent credit is
still required for all classes of US ham license with HF privileges. FCC
hasn't
changed those rules yet. Heck, FCC hasn't even gotten a proposal to do so
yet.

TRue, but even if it takes that two years I speak of, it doesn't seem
worth joining. Plus it seems their only goal is to eliminnate the code
test, not the transition from one state to the other.

All in the mind of the joiner, doncha think? For some, two years is
not a long time, for others it's a very long time.

NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.

In other words, "join our organization and trust us to do what's best,
don't go running off half-cocked and make all of us look bad". That's
what the ARRL has been saying for decades...

NCI knows better than the rest of us.

While I don't agree with that, their BoD certainly knows more about dealing
with the FCC than those who advocate breaking the rules.

Heheh, that's true

Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

Join No Code International! Hams for the 21st Century.

Will these "hams for the 21st Century" listen to you and toe the party
line?

They don't seem to be so far do they?

We're only talking about a vociferous few, Mike. So far. It will be
interesting to see what happens on Aug 1.

Help assure the survival and prosperity of ham radio.

I think we can agree that annoying the Commissioners, breaking the
rules, and acting like we don't know how the system works isn't going
to help the survival and prosperity of ham radio.

But that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.

Hopefully saner heads will prevail.

There's one thing about all this that puzzles me, though. The FCC made
their opinions clear back in 1999 and again in 2000. The agenda for
WRC 2003 was known more than a year in advance and the outcome for
S25.5 correctly predicted by you (Carl) as a "slam dunk". Yet your
organization is still figuring out what to do next wrt FCC?

I myself have no idea why there isn't a whole sequence of events
marked out for an orderly transition.

You mean by FCC? They don't work that way. Look how long the last
restructuring took.

Nope, I mean the NCI. Why they don't have things mapped out and know
exactly the steps that must be taken to achieve their stated purpose on
this earth. Surely THEY knew that it takes more than just changing the
treaty?

Of course they do. But there's a number of issues. For example:

Does FCC need to wait until the treaty is ratified or not?

Might FCC just dump Element 1 by MO&O, or is a complete NOI/NPRM cycle
needed?

Will submitting a proposal now cause FCC to act faster or slower? (If
FCC thinks they need to wait till ratification, and they plan to just
dump Element 1 by MO&O, submitting a proposal could upset the apple
cart and cause an NPRM cycle that delays things years!)

What about proposals that are already on the docket?

Might FCC tack code test elimination onto an existing proposal such as
the one "refarming the Novice bands"?

Should the anticodetest folks go for a single issue (dump Element 1)
or something more comprehensive?

Of course all of this may already have been worked out. Or maybe not.

Like who becomes what in the hierarchy of licenses.

Do Novices lose their licenses? Aside from CW, their test is so
rudimentary?

Tech pluses?

Lots of stuff that will become apparent as time goes on.

Nobody should lose their license. Nobody should lose operating privileges
UNLESS they are compensated for by new privileges.

Right. But I think there should be some sort of remedial program for the
novices.

Why?

After all, I would expect their final priveliges to be
equivalent to a tech plus, which of course doesn't exist anymore, at
least for testing.

That was suggested back in '98 and shot down by FCC. (ARRL wanted
instant grandfathering of Novices and Tech Pluses to General).

Consider this: There's a whole bunch of stuff that my 1967-70 era tests didn't
cover (like PSK-31). But FCC trusts that since I have a clean record I have
kept up with the rules and regs. So why should a Novice or Tech be any
different?

Well?

And yes, I worry about those people. I have great concern for the
people who think that a Technician can now pick and choose where to
transmit, who think that all ya gotta do to change the rules is have
everyone email the head people at the FCC, and whatever these good folk
dream up next.


The oddest thing is that even when someone as knowledgeable as Carl, Bill or
Phil, who are "on their side" tells them they're wrong, they argue.

Right. I could be of help, but when I point out to them what to me is
obvious, and turning out to be true, I get that. And it isn't even a
personal condemnation.

"Brave new world, that has such people in it"

N0BK would call it surreal. He's gone, so I'll have to do the honors.

It's surreal......

"If it happens, it must be possible".

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

snippage


TRue, but even if it takes that two years I speak of, it doesn't seem
worth joining. Plus it seems their only goal is to eliminnate the code
test, not the transition from one state to the other.


All in the mind of the joiner, doncha think? For some, two years is
not a long time, for others it's a very long time.

Well, if they want to, I guess Maybe Carl or Bill can give us some
numbers of joinees since the beginning of July. Seems wierd to me, but
then again so much does.


NCI's Board of Directors is working the strategy for how to
best approach the FCC on this matter and we will keep the
membership informed when we have finalized those discussions.



In other words, "join our organization and trust us to do what's best,
don't go running off half-cocked and make all of us look bad". That's
what the ARRL has been saying for decades...



NCI knows better than the rest of us.



While I don't agree with that, their BoD certainly knows more about dealing
with the FCC than those who advocate breaking the rules.



Heheh, that's true


Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

The preponderence of evidence would suggest otherwise for some.


more snippage


I myself have no idea why there isn't a whole sequence of events
marked out for an orderly transition.



You mean by FCC? They don't work that way. Look how long the last
restructuring took.

Nope, I mean the NCI. Why they don't have things mapped out and know
exactly the steps that must be taken to achieve their stated purpose on
this earth. Surely THEY knew that it takes more than just changing the
treaty?


Of course they do. But there's a number of issues. For example:

Does FCC need to wait until the treaty is ratified or not?

Might FCC just dump Element 1 by MO&O, or is a complete NOI/NPRM cycle
needed?

Will submitting a proposal now cause FCC to act faster or slower? (If
FCC thinks they need to wait till ratification, and they plan to just
dump Element 1 by MO&O, submitting a proposal could upset the apple
cart and cause an NPRM cycle that delays things years!)

What about proposals that are already on the docket?

Might FCC tack code test elimination onto an existing proposal such as
the one "refarming the Novice bands"?

Should the anticodetest folks go for a single issue (dump Element 1)
or something more comprehensive?

Of course all of this may already have been worked out. Or maybe not.

What *looks* like happened, IMO, is that there really wasn't much
planning for a transition after the fall. I could be wrong, but the
leaders seemed rather surprised by the "looting behavior" of some
people. Any time that a vacuum is created, *something* will fill it.


Like who becomes what in the hierarchy of licenses.

Do Novices lose their licenses? Aside from CW, their test is so
rudimentary?

Tech pluses?

Lots of stuff that will become apparent as time goes on.



Nobody should lose their license. Nobody should lose operating privileges
UNLESS they are compensated for by new privileges.

Right. But I think there should be some sort of remedial program for the
novices.


Why?

Many people are annoyed at the likes of myself and other "Extra Lites".
I can only imagine that novices, who have taken an extremely rudimentary
test, will likewise be thought of as not worthy of the privelige.



After all, I would expect their final priveliges to be
equivalent to a tech plus, which of course doesn't exist anymore, at
least for testing.


That was suggested back in '98 and shot down by FCC. (ARRL wanted
instant grandfathering of Novices and Tech Pluses to General).

But now imagine that. That would be tantamount to saying that "The
Morse Code makes the Ham". A tech plus is not that far from a General,
but certainly in a world that requires no code test, the Novice is
further away from a General than a Technician is. Awkward paragraph, I know.

Consider this: There's a whole bunch of stuff that my 1967-70 era
tests didn't
cover (like PSK-31). But FCC trusts that since I have a clean record I have
kept up with the rules and regs. So why should a Novice or Tech be any
different?


Well?

See above.


And yes, I worry about those people. I have great concern for the
people who think that a Technician can now pick and choose where to
transmit, who think that all ya gotta do to change the rules is have
everyone email the head people at the FCC, and whatever these good folk
dream up next.


The oddest thing is that even when someone as knowledgeable as Carl, Bill or
Phil, who are "on their side" tells them they're wrong, they argue.

Right. I could be of help, but when I point out to them what to me is
obvious, and turning out to be true, I get that. And it isn't even a
personal condemnation.


"Brave new world, that has such people in it"

Such people indeed!


- Mike KB3EIA -

Brian wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:


Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

The preponderence of evidence would suggest otherwise for some.


For example, the FCC specifies in Part 97 that a -Morse Code- exam
will be given at five (5) WPM. The VECs gathered and decided to
administer a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15 WPM instead.


What *looks* like happened, IMO, is that there really wasn't much
planning for a transition after the fall.


Extra DICK says he foresaw this twenty (20) years ago. Extra Jim and
his bunions have surmised for the last 3+ years that the FCC has no
choice but to dump the code.

So what have you'se guys developed in all this time? Aren't you the
forward thinker on the ARS? You usually have all the answers. Are
you sitting this one out?


We (or I) have answers, but they won't be acknowleged. We lost the war,
and now it is up to those who won it.

A PCTA has to sit this one out because his/her input is no longer
relevent. The paradigm has changed. NCTA's will rule the roost.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:


Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

The preponderence of evidence would suggest otherwise for some.


For example, the FCC specifies in Part 97 that a -Morse Code- exam
will be given at five (5) WPM. The VECs gathered and decided to
administer a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15 WPM instead.


What *looks* like happened, IMO, is that there really wasn't much
planning for a transition after the fall.


Extra DICK says he foresaw this twenty (20) years ago. Extra Jim and
his bunions have surmised for the last 3+ years that the FCC has no
choice but to dump the code.

So what have you'se guys developed in all this time? Aren't you the
forward thinker on the ARS? You usually have all the answers. Are
you sitting this one out?


We (or I) have answers, but they won't be acknowleged. We lost the war,
and now it is up to those who won it.

Absolutely not. This is your future as well.

A PCTA has to sit this one out because his/her input is no longer
relevent. The paradigm has changed. NCTA's will rule the roost.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Yep, leave it up to the other guy...

Too much apathy in amateur radio.

Brian wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


N2EY wrote:


Would that some folks would at least listen to reason on what the
rules actually mean.....

The preponderence of evidence would suggest otherwise for some.


For example, the FCC specifies in Part 97 that a -Morse Code- exam
will be given at five (5) WPM. The VECs gathered and decided to
administer a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15 WPM instead.



What *looks* like happened, IMO, is that there really wasn't much
planning for a transition after the fall.


Extra DICK says he foresaw this twenty (20) years ago. Extra Jim and
his bunions have surmised for the last 3+ years that the FCC has no
choice but to dump the code.

So what have you'se guys developed in all this time? Aren't you the
forward thinker on the ARS? You usually have all the answers. Are
you sitting this one out?


We (or I) have answers, but they won't be acknowleged. We lost the war,
and now it is up to those who won it.


Absolutely not. This is your future as well.


A PCTA has to sit this one out because his/her input is no longer
relevent. The paradigm has changed. NCTA's will rule the roost.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Yep, leave it up to the other guy...

Too much apathy in amateur radio.

Uhh Brian, let's look at just how much credibility the PCTA's have in
this newsgroup. Nada, zilch, nothing.

About the only thing we could do is to ask someone like Carl to tell us
what to do.

What I would say is to keep the code test in the future, and to
maintain a high level of proficiency in the writtens. That is what I
believe the ARS should do. I can and will file my comments, but it isn't
going to mean a thing.

What the NCTA's appear to want is an open acceptance of what they have
brought to bear on the Amateur community. Sorry, ain't going to happen.
I'll welcome and encourage new hams, but I won't change my mind about
how I think the ARS should be structured.

Personally, I think the NCTA's haven't quite figured out that THEY have
become the mainstream in Amateur radio. YOU WON! NOw you have to start
running the show.

People who agitate for change very often have a hard time adjusting to
their new position after achieving it, so don't feel too bad.

This whole concept is why I chastise Carl and Bill for not being more
prepared to ease the transition after their victory. The PCTA's, such as
Larry, Dick, Dave, Jim, Dan, and myself and others, are a diverse group.
We have in common the belief that the code test is a good thing for
Amateur radio, but beyond that we have opinions that run all over the place.

This is why I say Carl Has to get his people in line. You are one of
his people, All the rabble rousing CB'ers are his people, All the people
who oppose Morse Code testing are his people. You are now the status quo.

You have to deal with it. That is exactly how it is. Amateur radio's
future now hinges on you. And there is nothing a PCTA could do about it
even if they wanted to.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Personally, I think the NCTA's haven't quite figured out that THEY have

become the mainstream in Amateur radio. YOU WON! NOw you have to start
running the show.

People who agitate for change very often have a hard time adjusting to
their new position after achieving it, so don't feel too bad.

This whole concept is why I chastise Carl and Bill for not being more
prepared to ease the transition after their victory. The PCTA's, such as
Larry, Dick, Dave, Jim, Dan, and myself and others, are a diverse group.
We have in common the belief that the code test is a good thing for
Amateur radio, but beyond that we have opinions that run all over the place.

This is why I say Carl Has to get his people in line. You are one of
his people, All the rabble rousing CB'ers are his people, All the people
who oppose Morse Code testing are his people. You are now the status quo.

You have to deal with it. That is exactly how it is. Amateur radio's
future now hinges on you. And there is nothing a PCTA could do about it
even if they wanted to.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

ROFLMAO!!! I think the fact that the NCTA's are the new "mainstream" in
amateur radio is nothing short of the laugh of the century! During the code/
no-code (test) debate, they promised the following:

- Tremendous growth in the numbers of new hams, particularly through
the involvement of young, computer literate, technically-inclined people.

- Tremendous increases in the "advancement of the state of the art," with
the aforementioned young people taking us into the high-speed digital age,
giving us the ham radio equivalent of all the commercial wireless services now
available on the cell phone networks and the internet.

- Greater diversity in the ham radio community, through the involvement of
more minorities and women.

- Growth in the numbers of physically-challenged hams due to the
elimination
of the Morse code test.

That's all I can specifically recall. That's enough, however. It will be very
interesting
to see just how long it takes for any of the above to take place whenever the
FCC gets around to acting on WRC-03. The NCTA has a lot of promises to keep,
and many miles to go before they sleep!

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Personally, I think the NCTA's haven't quite figured out that THEY have


become the mainstream in Amateur radio. YOU WON! NOw you have to start
running the show.

People who agitate for change very often have a hard time adjusting to
their new position after achieving it, so don't feel too bad.

This whole concept is why I chastise Carl and Bill for not being more
prepared to ease the transition after their victory. The PCTA's, such as
Larry, Dick, Dave, Jim, Dan, and myself and others, are a diverse group.
We have in common the belief that the code test is a good thing for
Amateur radio, but beyond that we have opinions that run all over the place.

This is why I say Carl Has to get his people in line. You are one of
his people, All the rabble rousing CB'ers are his people, All the people
who oppose Morse Code testing are his people. You are now the status quo.

You have to deal with it. That is exactly how it is. Amateur radio's
future now hinges on you. And there is nothing a PCTA could do about it
even if they wanted to.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike:

ROFLMAO!!! I think the fact that the NCTA's are the new "mainstream" in
amateur radio is nothing short of the laugh of the century! During the code/
no-code (test) debate, they promised the following:

Though no doubt some bitterness in that laugh, eh?


- Tremendous growth in the numbers of new hams, particularly through
the involvement of young, computer literate, technically-inclined people.

right

- Tremendous increases in the "advancement of the state of the art," with
the aforementioned young people taking us into the high-speed digital age,
giving us the ham radio equivalent of all the commercial wireless services now
available on the cell phone networks and the internet.

right

- Greater diversity in the ham radio community, through the involvement of
more minorities and women.

What a racist thing for them to say.

oh yeah, right.


- Growth in the numbers of physically-challenged hams due to the
elimination
of the Morse code test.

arrgh, right.


That's all I can specifically recall. That's enough, however. It will be very
interesting
to see just how long it takes for any of the above to take place whenever the
FCC gets around to acting on WRC-03. The NCTA has a lot of promises to keep,
and many miles to go before they sleep!


Every once in a while, the worst thing a group can get is what it asks
for! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Uhh Brian, let's look at just how much credibility the PCTA's have in
this newsgroup. Nada, zilch, nothing.

Mike, I see it the other way. In any case, everyone posting here has
been tainted by the stench of a rotting horse. But we continue to
beat it anyway.

About the only thing we could do is to ask someone like Carl to tell us
what to do.

If you must.

What I would say is to keep the code test in the future, and to
maintain a high level of proficiency in the writtens. That is what I
believe the ARS should do. I can and will file my comments, but it isn't
going to mean a thing.

Why not?

What the NCTA's appear to want is an open acceptance of what they have
brought to bear on the Amateur community. Sorry, ain't going to happen.
I'll welcome and encourage new hams, but I won't change my mind about
how I think the ARS should be structured.

You know, some people think that the NCTA have been ineffective at
changing anything. They think the FCC was going that way anyhow.

So I'll chalk you up as one who thinks NCI is a highly effective
organization. Yep, better ask Carl how you should respond to and
NOI/NPRM.

Personally, I think the NCTA's haven't quite figured out that THEY have
become the mainstream in Amateur radio. YOU WON! NOw you have to start
running the show.

Kewl!

People who agitate for change very often have a hard time adjusting to
their new position after achieving it, so don't feel too bad.

Kind of like the Republican Party after 70 years of Democrat rule.

FWIW, they're doing just fine. So will we.

This whole concept is why I chastise Carl and Bill for not being more
prepared to ease the transition after their victory. The PCTA's, such as
Larry, Dick, Dave, Jim, Dan, and myself and others, are a diverse group.

Steve, Larry, Dick, Kelly, Dave, Dan, Bruce, Dan Finn, and a heap of
others who have fallen on their swords are certainly diverse.

Jim seems to be friendly enough, considering the hell he's been
through over the years.

We have in common the belief that the code test is a good thing for
Amateur radio, but beyond that we have opinions that run all over the place.

Oh, yeh.

This is why I say Carl Has to get his people in line. You are one of
his people, All the rabble rousing CB'ers are his people, All the people
who oppose Morse Code testing are his people. You are now the status quo.

Except for the CB part, thank you. CB is regulated by Part 95, not
Carl.

I'm ready to start singing like Sidney Portier, "He's Got the Whole
World in His Hands."

You have to deal with it. That is exactly how it is. Amateur radio's
future now hinges on you. And there is nothing a PCTA could do about it
even if they wanted to.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike, don't sweat it. The ARS is in good hands.

73, Brian