RadioBanter - where PCTA's fail in logic

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Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

I definitely am not an expert in any way, shape or form about this whole BPL
thing, but to me logic would dictate that if these BPL lines are going to be
emanating a ton of intereference, would they not also be prone to
interference coming in???

Seems to me that would create problems with connections and the quality of
transfer rates.

Yes it would. The likely result would be a lot more error correction,
slowing the system down. Rumor has it the Power companies plan on suing
God for the lightning interference. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

I definitely am not an expert in any way, shape or form about this whole BPL
thing, but to me logic would dictate that if these BPL lines are going to be
emanating a ton of intereference, would they not also be prone to
interference coming in???

Not necessarily. It depends on the format of the wideband information
and whatever is used, if any, for error detection/correction, and whether
or not that detection/correction is in the "up" or "down" direction along
the lines.

The problem in trying to decide anything about BPL is that NONE of
the proponents are revealing anything about the technical characteristics
of their various systems. None of us know the "weight" of the "ton of
interference," not even the ARRL Lab.

Seems to me that would create problems with connections and the quality of
transfer rates.

Ordinarily, with simple systems, yes.

Case in point against: We (wife and self) decided on the digital cable TV
service from our cable TV provider, main point being the larger number
of non-fee channels available plus other services. That digital TV service
provides "up" (to the head-end) communications through the supplied
cable set-top box, used mainly for pay-per-view requests and the like.
The analog TV service from the same provider requires telephone contact
(tone-dial entry). Minor point, but the analog TV distribution is one-way
and IS subject to external RFI affecting the signal.

The digital TV distribution is very nearly interference-free on all channels
and there are many more of those available in the same bandspace than
can be had via analog TV distribution. The digital TV formatting is the
major key in being interference-free...as well as holding video and audio
quality consistent regardless of signal strength.

I don't know for sure whether the digital TV format includes any error-
correction capabilities in our particular TV cable provider but I suspect
it does based on general electronics trade information of the past.

"Broadband over Power Lines" is such a general term that no clue can
be derived from the name or the bandwidth of the "broadband" part.

If the BPL was carrying just a single Internet provider, then the bandwidth
could be considerably smaller than the 78 MHz bandwidth referred to on
03-104, even for 1.54 MHz "T1" or equivalent digital service...in both "up"
and "down" directions operating equivalent to full duplex.

Irrespective of the bandwidth, there's no information on the lines' RF
levels from various BPL proponents. Only one BPL system was
indicated as wanting "Part 15" incidental radiation levels much higher
than existing regulations. That still doesn't give any indication on what
the BPL distribution system line levels are.

Line levels of RF are important in considering the BPL coupling systems
to provide subscriber drops...but there is NO information on what any of
them use for couplers. We don't know for sure if they are really using the
"MV" (4 to 12 KVAC, depending on locality) lines as long distribution lines.
Those MV lines have finite lengths and we don't know if the BPL system
provides any sort of terminations at RF of those ends. If there is no
termination, then the lines will radiate as indicated in the ARRL model.
Those MV lines can radiate even if terminated, although such radiation
at HF will be lower.

MV lines were NEVER characterized, standardized, or municipally-coded
as RF transmission lines, not even in the National Electrical Code
documents. Their lengths and wire spacings (especially above ground)
vary considerably. They work very fine at 60 Hz, dependable and
reliable as they are, whether elevated or underground.

There are no details sufficient for any sort of real technical evaluation so
all of it is a big guessing game at this point. The only true reports are
the radio observations done at the BPL test sites, not done with
calibrated field strength meters/receivers.

LHA

So, when God doesn't show up, then the power companies win by default?? LOL

--
Ryan, KC8PMX
"Symbolism is for the simple minded....."

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

I definitely am not an expert in any way, shape or form about this whole
BPL
thing, but to me logic would dictate that if these BPL lines are going
to be
emanating a ton of intereference, would they not also be prone to
interference coming in???

Seems to me that would create problems with connections and the quality
of
transfer rates.

Yes it would. The likely result would be a lot more error correction,
slowing the system down. Rumor has it the Power companies plan on suing
God for the lightning interference. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:
It might have if it was promoted better. The argument of people running to
the internet, or the internet being competition is not as strong of an
argument (among other arguments). You can't "run" to something if you
didn't know it existed in the first place. Let's see, how many people have
heard of the internet?? How many have heard of ham radio??? How many of
these answeree's are under 25-30??

I know what you're saying Ryan, but there is a huge difference between
the Internet and Ham radio:

Ham radio does not allow a person to download Porn, do business online,
or find cool software.

Ham radio would like a person to have a certain technical acumen, while
the internet demands clicking on links.

Wheras may who are interested in Ham radio find the internet a useful
tool and entertaining, the converse is only true in a very few cases.
It's really not the same group of people.

If the internet were to suddenly dissapear, very few of the people using
it would decide to migrate to Ham radio (conjecture, for sure - but do
you want to refute that?)

Our local group just did a presentation/booth for the boy scouts this past
week, and only about 5-10% had a clue that ham radio even existed.

Good work, man!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:
So, when God doesn't show up, then the power companies win by default?? LOL

You got it! The wonders of the court system......

- Mike KB3EIA -

--
Ryan, KC8PMX
"Symbolism is for the simple minded....."

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...

Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

I definitely am not an expert in any way, shape or form about this whole

BPL

thing, but to me logic would dictate that if these BPL lines are going

to be

emanating a ton of intereference, would they not also be prone to
interference coming in???

Seems to me that would create problems with connections and the quality

of

transfer rates.

Yes it would. The likely result would be a lot more error correction,
slowing the system down. Rumor has it the Power companies plan on suing
God for the lightning interference. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:
It might have if it was promoted better. The argument of people running
to
the internet, or the internet being competition is not as strong of an
argument (among other arguments). You can't "run" to something if you
didn't know it existed in the first place. Let's see, how many people
have
heard of the internet?? How many have heard of ham radio??? How many of
these answeree's are under 25-30??

I know what you're saying Ryan, but there is a huge difference between
the Internet and Ham radio:

Ham radio does not allow a person to download Porn, do business online,
or find cool software.

Ham radio would like a person to have a certain technical acumen, while
the internet demands clicking on links.

If you look at it from that perspective, yes. But, just as in ham radio,
even the "internet" provides for opportunity if you look and are interested
beyond the basics. There's networking environments that can be
"home-brewed" that will provide faster access, more efficient use of hard
and soft storage; there's machine specific solutions to better connection
speeds and more efficient use of BPS and MPS, etc. See? In my world, you
look at the "internet" like I look at ham radio. BUT, you won't hear me
saying that you aren't interested, or that you are "dumbed-down" or that you
aren't equal [or not], or any of those other childish arguments one uses for
self-gratification. Know why? Because, in the end, we are all on the
internet...and why would I care why or how you approach the task?

Wheras may who are interested in Ham radio find the internet a useful
tool and entertaining, the converse is only true in a very few cases.
It's really not the same group of people.

Once again, that is from your perspective.

If the internet were to suddenly dissapear, very few of the people using
it would decide to migrate to Ham radio (conjecture, for sure - but do
you want to refute that?)

Whereas, if ham radio went away today...well, there'd be no difference in
internet usage because most hams are already there... And, I daresay that
most hams would be "inventive" enough to create some pretty fantastical ways
to employ the technologies VOIP, etc., to using the internet for "fun"
communication.

Our local group just did a presentation/booth for the boy scouts this
past
week, and only about 5-10% had a clue that ham radio even existed.

Good work, man!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Kim W5TIT

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:
It might have if it was promoted better. The argument of people running
to
the internet, or the internet being competition is not as strong of an
argument (among other arguments). You can't "run" to something if you
didn't know it existed in the first place. Let's see, how many people
have
heard of the internet?? How many have heard of ham radio??? How many of
these answeree's are under 25-30??

I know what you're saying Ryan, but there is a huge difference between
the Internet and Ham radio:

Ham radio does not allow a person to download Porn, do business online,
or find cool software.

Ham radio would like a person to have a certain technical acumen, while
the internet demands clicking on links.

Right. No argument there.

Wheras may who are interested in Ham radio find the internet a useful
tool and entertaining, the converse is only true in a very few cases.
It's really not the same group of people.

Sometimes it is, sometimes not.

If the internet were to suddenly dissapear, very few of the people using
it would decide to migrate to Ham radio (conjecture, for sure - but do
you want to refute that?)

Sure, and I will say it again...... An alternative is only an alternative if
it is involved as a possibility in the equation in the first place. Like I
said in the quoted text above which is a mantra of some here, stating that
of course kids run to the internet. Of course, ham radio is not an
alternative for the kids, as they are not aware of it as an alternative.

People in their 50's, 60's, and older have a different view of radio, as it
was more of an important part of their lives that it is today for people.
Back then for them, radio was more of a primary entertainment and/or
information source than it is now, be it listening only or transcieving.

Our local group just did a presentation/booth for the boy scouts this
past
week, and only about 5-10% had a clue that ham radio even existed.

Good work, man!

- Mike KB3EIA -

I have been pushing the group to look more into events like this, especially
working better with the Scout leadership in this area. We had at least one
kid (about 13-14) who definitely showed alot of interest, and who knows,
possibly a new ham in the future??

--
Ryan, KC8PMX
"Symbolism is for the simple minded....."

In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

People in their 50's, 60's, and older have a different view of radio, as it
was more of an important part of their lives that it is today for people.
Back then for them, radio was more of a primary entertainment and/or
information source than it is now, be it listening only or transcieving.

Ryan, allow an observation from one of those "older" folks... :-)

Radio _broadcasting_ was a kind of entertainment in the 1940s and
before. It was unique to all. No need to leave the house. Everyone
heard the same program at the same time and those programs could
be discussed in-person with others right afterwards. News and
important events could be broadcast immediately, no waiting for the
next day or next week to read about it in a newspaper.

By 1950 television broadcasting was firmly established and this
revised the way "radio" was thought about. Television brought live or
recorded images along with sound and the impact on viewers was
greater than with just sound broadcasting. With old sound-only radio
listeners could only imagine the environment surrounding a show.
Their imaginations played a greater role in their emotional likes or
dislikes about a show.

By 1960 the non-broadcasting radio applications were spreading, such
as two-way mobile radio becoming common with public safety
organizations and large businesses, now well established as an
important communications tool. Microwave radio relay was also firmly
established for national communications linking for everything from
telephone long-distance to television networking. The first of the
communications satellites were already lofted for wideband, multi-
user communications and more were coming and launched. Telephones
now had direct-dial capability all over the country and extending to much
of the rest of the world. It was in, it was working, it was a fact of daily
life.

By 1960 aural-only radio broadcasting had shifted output focus. The
old radio programs were going if not gone to the new magic of television.
"Radio" in the common vernacular became the news over the car radio,
pop music to break up the monotony of a commute, background sounds
while in a residence...relatively lesser in importance compared to TV.

By 1970 mobile two-way radio was a necessity for police, fire, medical
emergency services, businesses doing vehicular delivery or needing fast
routing for pickups, taxicabs. The first of the solid-state handheld trans-
ceivers had appeared that was economical for almost all small to large
businesses in walk-around utility work to construction sites to dockyard
cargo movement to motion picture location shooting coordination, to name
a just a few. "Two-way radio" was familiar to almost all Americans by now,
whether by seeing it in daily life or on television shows.

By 1980 the first trials of cellular telephony had begun, in "car phones"
first. "Funny-looking" antenna shapes (at cell sites) were sprouting in
urban areas. "Cordless" telephones for the home and office appeared
as hardware operating frequencies went higher and higher in VHF and
UHF bands. Color television broadcasting was firmly established and
important events were being organized around TV scheduling needs.
Videotape units for the home were available for recording TV...with
timers for automatic recording. Videotape boxes had bulti-in TV tuners.

By 1990 the desktop personal computer was a part of business life
and offices had wired computing networks. The wireless network had
appeared to eliminate wiring. Cellular telephony was firmly established
and growing explosively in the communications industry. Information
theory had matured and, with newer complex ICs, could provide more
secure digital communications on WLANs. Data and facsimile comm
was now available over mobile radios (data terminals in larger PD patrol
cars, remote EKG transmission from ambulances). "Cell phones" was
a term in the public vernacular. TV tuners as PC peripheral cards had
appeared. The Compact Disk recording medium had been standardized
and CD players were on the consumer market. Shirt-pocket sized AM
and FM radios had become so popular that makers were competing in
external color styling rather than in reception quality. Handheld two-way
radios had shrunk to true one-hand operation and offered tone signalling
for a variety of ways, from CTCSS to DTMF on built-in keyboards.

By 2000 "consumer electronics" was a separate branch in consumer
chains. The words "PC" or "Mac," "CD" and "cable [TV]" and "Internet"
and "cell" and "dot-com" and "spam" and "mouse" and even "CB" were
all well-known and recognized by the public. Cell phones were so
numerous that one in four Americans had cellular telephone
subscriptions, either personal or business (that would become one in
three by the end of 2002). Cordless telephones were now digital and in
the 2.4 GHz band. The maritime world had adopted the GMDSS, used
voice and data modes ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore and VHF two-way
radios in harbor areas, commercial land private water vehicles alike.
Marine radar small enough to be used on small motorboats had
appeared in 1974. The EPIRB was an established emergency device
for both waterborne and airborne vehicles. Civil aviation had VHF AM
radio for nearly a half century along with VHF to UHF radionavigation
aids of many kinds. Local government agencies and businesses used
"trunking" to conserve EM space in their already crowded spectrum
allocations. GPSS, already in place for the military, was now available
in consumer stores, small enough for easy carry in hiking with
accuracy almost to that of military secure standards. The geo-
synchronous communications satellite orbit positions were now
filled to safe capacity, covering all parts of the world. The first of the
radio clocks (tradenamed "to atomic standards") had appeared in
consumer stores, automatically synchronizing with WWVB and using
low-power DSP circuitry for greater-than-a-year battery operation in
any of the states. "Wireless" no longer meant just radio but applied
to any electronic device not needing wire connections in the home,
from simple doorbell signalling to remote TV monitoring to baby
monitors to networking home computers to keyboards and mice for
personal computers to small microphone-earphone headsets to
outside temperature sensors signalling digitally to an inside master
unit. The public can buy a pair of FRS handheld UHF transceivers
for less than $50, operate them without license up to 2 miles range
and with digital voice and signalling mildly secure from other FRS
users. Chain department stores at the K-Mart level regular sell CB
kits for mobile use, all items shrinkwrapped together in the same
package for less than $100. Cell phones got video capability, able to
send images over the cell circuit to others in real time along with
abbreviated messaging that was becoming a fad with teen agers.
The belt-clipped pager receiver was both an important link in alerting
and a sign of "self importance" to users. The standard small-unit
military radio [hitting the quarter-million production quantity by 2002]
was digital in voice and data, in-clear or secure, on-frequency or a
frequency-hopper to reduce DF interception. GPS and other digital
systems was starting to network land military units for real-time
large-group movements on battlefields. Boomers and sharks in the
Navy submarine fleet used secure data VLF-ELF alerting under water.
Independent moving/relocating company vans have both GPS and
cell phone map data couplers for finding routing and address locations.
The ubiquitous CD flat disk has overpowered the old phonograph disk
market, now cheap enough to use in throwaway advertising gimmicks
in the mail and magazines. The CD-size DVD is rapidly overtaking
the VHS video recording medium.

In 2003 the consumer market has seen a steady market in radio-
controlled toys to the extent of introducing matchbox-size R/C cars
at $10 each. Cell phone oriented corporations are starting chain
stores for cell phones and pagers, building PDAs into some of
them and incorporated video cameras appearing to be a standard
option. Flat-cased small portable color TV sets with LCD screens
and all-electronic channel tuning (VHF through UHF) are available
for less than $150. "Shortwave" is becoming almost an outmoded
term but the consumer market still has SW BC radios with digital
tuning and SSB receive capability, small, flat, easy to pack into
suitcases. International SW broadcasting has started using digital
modulation after several years of successful testing on HF. Larger
departement stores have RFID systems of many kinds, the tags
small and very cheap, adhesive-backed for attachment to all kinds of
merchandise; the RFID "gates" are becoming a standard feature at
main entrances. There are waterproof portable AM-FM receivers for
use in showers, others small enough to become a part of lightweight
ear-phones. Wireless microphones for the consumer market have
passed the two-decade mark, are a standard part of stage and TV
performer's wardrobe. The flat-screen TFT display is beginning to
replace color CRTs with plasma displays for larger size TV screens
flat enough, light enough to hang on a wall. Dog and cat collars are
available for sensing electronic borders and warning the animal on
proximity of such. There are experimental trials of implantable human
ID tags working at radio frequencies to read out identity and medical
information and history in the device.

Radio astronomy is a standard scientific tool in astrophysics. Tens
of thousands of volunteers around the world are part of the distributed
computing effort of SETI, linking through the Internet to get data and
sending the sorted data back. SETI uses only the "hydrogen line"
frequency to search, already has discovered several locations having
some kind of repetitive radio signal phenomena. Some electric power
utilities are already using a form of carrier current communications to
read subscribers' electric meters remotely, negating the need for
human meter readers traveling to each subscriber. Some companies
have meter readers equipped with handheld terminals for individual
recording, some of those with digital radio or cell phone data forwarding
to the central office. Overnight delivery services already have a version
of that portable terminal as do some supermarkets.

Anyone in the American public who can look around and obverve what
is going on in the marketplace, in society, or reading newspapers and
magazines can discover all or part of what I wrote above. "Radio" is
much more far-reaching that just HF band activity...to the PUBLIC.
They KNOW about it in general and its myriad uses. They've seen
bits and pieces of information of devices and systems yet to come in
the near future.

So, in this arena there are some pro-morse-code-test advocates
steadfastly clinging to the notion that a monotonic arythmic pattern
representing English characters is "basic" to "radio" for the "future."
It "must" be done so that all can use their imaginations (as in radio
broadcasting of the 1940s) to discern the "personalities" of the code
senders and develop "lifelong friendships" on the barest of data,
devoid of all the normal clues available in normal in-person contact.
All "must" know this basic communications means of the 1920s and
1930s radio so that they can be "acceptible" to a group of radio
hobbyists "pioneering" the radioways for later generations' futures.

Those later generations came, lived in that future and went on to
even more futures...passing the imaginations of those hobbists
still stuck in the standards and practices of pre-WW2 times. Those
later generations, like yourself, live with accomplished advancements
in many kinds of "radio" and can all relate to "radio" as a fact of
existance.

What the later generations seem to lack is _imagination_ of working
communications slowly with a minimum of contact data of the sender
and deriving the feelings of being a "master" of their craft all through
a singular rhythmic pattern of monotonic sound. All to achieve the
mighty importance of a federal hobbyist license in a "service" of
avocation and recreation and personal pleasure.

I've got a good imagination. Just can't see it like they do. Not even
a half century ago when I got tossed into the Big Leagues of HF
communications during a Real service to my country. The Real
future was there back then and that bred even more fantastic futures
in a wider range of "radio" applications later. Those futures are now our
present. I'm anxious to see more of what Real imaginations come up
with, and, hopefully, to enjoy those too!

LHA