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Why thirteen and twenty?
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Hash: SHA1 I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? Jack. =2D --=20 Jack Twilley jmt at twilley dot org http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/jNLQGPFSfAB/ezgRAnT0AJ9JwznusaVpDFgsbvd7gSlS6+zffACgqPSs Eax4C1KwKboU55NhahcuAsY=3D =3DjOXm =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
In article , Jack Twilley
writes: I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? 12 to 13 wpm is generally agreed to be above the speed where things such as "counting dits" work for most people. It's the beginning of the skills which take one to higher speeds 20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Jack Twilley writes: I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? 12 to 13 wpm is generally agreed to be above the speed where things such as "counting dits" work for most people. It's the beginning of the skills which take one to higher speeds 20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. 73 de Jim, N2EY One more thing Jim. 20 wpm is above another 'threshold', which is at about 18wpm for most folks. So you gotta know it to do it. Dan/W4NTI |
Jim, N2EY, wrote:
20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. Are there any 'professional' Morse operators left who earn their living by sending by hand and receiving by ear? I am under the impression it is now strictly an amateur endeavor. Jim, K7JEB |
Jim,
I had a 2nd class radiotelegraph license back in 1967. One needed to be 21 (I was still a teenager) plus have sufficient service time to qualify for the 1st (I forget, but it seems it was one year at sea running communications under the supervision of a 1st telegraph). The second was 20 words per minute and the 1st was 25 words per minute. From what I have heard, the 25 was sufficient to get you a not too good paying job on the slow side circuits whilst you had to be 100% copy and reliable at 30 to get the good jobs on the main circuits. Of course, this would pre-date 1967 by quite a few years :) From what I recall, back in the 60s you tended to hear the newcomers at 5 to 10 words per minute, a minor number in the 13 to 20 range, a number in the 30 word per minute range, and a surprising number in the 40 plus word per minute range. I did run into one guy that I had a problem with until he realized I wasn't the guy he was used to hearing at KG6NAC and finally slowed down to about 50 (which was really pushing limits for me at that time). I originally called cq at about 40 to 45 and he responded at around 60. Fortunately, I got most of his call but that was a bit much. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Jack Twilley writes: I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? 12 to 13 wpm is generally agreed to be above the speed where things such as "counting dits" work for most people. It's the beginning of the skills which take one to higher speeds 20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. 73 de Jim, N2EY --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 10/9/03 |
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message thlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Jack Twilley writes: I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? 12 to 13 wpm is generally agreed to be above the speed where things such as "counting dits" work for most people. It's the beginning of the skills which take one to higher speeds 20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. 73 de Jim, N2EY One more thing Jim. 20 wpm is above another 'threshold', which is at about 18wpm for most folks. So you gotta know it to do it. Dan/W4NTI Welp Dan, as I strap on my dragon armor and jousting butt-plug, please orient me toward the 1951 anachronism of the 1923 AEFC standard. didididididit. |
"Jim Hampton" wrote in message ...
Jim, I had a 2nd class radiotelegraph license back in 1967. One needed to be 21 (I was still a teenager) plus have sufficient service time to qualify for the 1st (I forget, but it seems it was one year at sea running communications under the supervision of a 1st telegraph). The second was 20 words per minute and the 1st was 25 words per minute. From what I have heard, the 25 was sufficient to get you a not too good paying job on the slow side circuits whilst you had to be 100% copy and reliable at 30 to get the good jobs on the main circuits. Of course, this would pre-date 1967 by quite a few years :) Phil Kane has posted that there was a *shortage* of licensed radiotelegraph ops for the maritime services during the Vietnam conflict. Supplies going to VN went mostly by ship, all of which were US flag vessels.... Any connection to incentive licensing is pure speculation. From what I recall, back in the 60s you tended to hear the newcomers at 5 to 10 words per minute, a minor number in the 13 to 20 range, a number in the 30 word per minute range, and a surprising number in the 40 plus word per minute range. I did run into one guy that I had a problem with until he realized I wasn't the guy he was used to hearing at KG6NAC and finally slowed down to about 50 (which was really pushing limits for me at that time). I originally called cq at about 40 to 45 and he responded at around 60. Fortunately, I got most of his call but that was a bit much. It's still that way today. 'tother night I had a nice QRQ ragchew with a French amateur on the low end of 80. Had the bug weight waay back! I recall a post sometime back where a veteran described a code test for US Navy "A" school, circa 1958. The test was to receive, on a standard Navy mill, 5 letter groups at 24 wpm. For a solid hour. Maximum of 3 errors in the entire hour. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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"Brian" wrote in message om... "Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message thlink.net... "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Jack Twilley writes: I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? 12 to 13 wpm is generally agreed to be above the speed where things such as "counting dits" work for most people. It's the beginning of the skills which take one to higher speeds 20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. 73 de Jim, N2EY One more thing Jim. 20 wpm is above another 'threshold', which is at about 18wpm for most folks. So you gotta know it to do it. Dan/W4NTI Welp Dan, as I strap on my dragon armor and jousting butt-plug, please orient me toward the 1951 anachronism of the 1923 AEFC standard. didididididit. Lets see if you can understand this then; If I want any crap out of you, I will squeeze your head. Have a lousy day. Dan/W4NTI |
In article AJejb.26585$Rd4.4023@fed1read07, "K7JEB"
writes: Jim, N2EY, wrote: 20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. Are there any 'professional' Morse operators left who earn their living by sending by hand and receiving by ear? I am under the impression it is now strictly an amateur endeavor. There are still a few ships using Morse and a few shore stations, but you have to look for them really hard. I don't think there are any left in the USA. The maritime services got away from using Morse for the same reasons railroads got away from steam locomotives: Cost to operate. Back when the transition was being made, diesel electric locomotives cost more to build or buy than the equivalent horsepower in steam, and coal cost less than its diesel fuel equivalent. But diesels did not require turntables, tenders, large amounts of water and distribution thereof, or disposal of ashes. The volume and weight of fuel for a given number of horsepower-hours was less for a diesel, and the fuel was a clean, easy to handle liquid. Diesel maintenance was less and in warm weather diesels could be shut down and started up on a few minutes' notice. Multiple diesel units could be coupled together for more horespower without requiring another engine crew to operate. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
On 16 Oct 2003 18:58:55 GMT, Alun Palmer wrote:
Experienced, yes, but no professional test went above 20wpm, which I think may be the real reason for the speed chosen for Extra. The 1st class Radiotelegraph licence in the US had random blocks at 16wpm and plain language at 20wpm, The First Class Radiotelegraph test was 25 WPM plain language and 20 code groups per minute, one minute solid copy out of five minutes sent and corresponding error-free sending. To qualify for that license, one also had to be over 21, have or qualify for the Second Class Radiotelegraph Operator certificate, and have at least one year in the aggregate (360 days "on the books") of handling manual Morse traffic at a ship or coast station open to public correspondence, civilian or military. whereas UK radio officers had to copy random blocks at 20wpm. I think 20wpm was standard around the world for testing ship's radio officers. Of course, they don't have to do it anymore. The UK requirements were the same as the US requirements for each level of certificate - both contries' requirements derived from the ITU Radio Regfulations and the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS). My reference for the UK requirements is: Handbook for Radio Operators Working Installations Licensed by Her Majesty's Postmaster General, General Post Office, London, 1961 - Appendix 4. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane |
In article AJejb.26585$Rd4.4023@fed1read07, "K7JEB"
writes: Are there any 'professional' Morse operators left who earn their living by sending by hand and receiving by ear? I am under the impression it is now strictly an amateur endeavor. Jim, K7JEB Jim: Yes, that's correct. This is all about the AMATEUR Radio Service. 73 de Larry, K3LT |
Dick Carroll wrote in message ...
Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Brian" wrote in message om... "Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message thlink.net... "N2EY" wrote in message ... In article , Jack Twilley writes: I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? 12 to 13 wpm is generally agreed to be above the speed where things such as "counting dits" work for most people. It's the beginning of the skills which take one to higher speeds 20 wpm derives from the old 1923-24 "Amateur Extra First Class" which chose 20 as double the old 10 wpm standard. It was reintroduced in 1951 when the current Amateur Extra class was created. Both speeds are far below those required of experienced professional Morse operators. 73 de Jim, N2EY One more thing Jim. 20 wpm is above another 'threshold', which is at about 18wpm for most folks. So you gotta know it to do it. Dan/W4NTI Welp Dan, as I strap on my dragon armor and jousting butt-plug, please orient me toward the 1951 anachronism of the 1923 AEFC standard. didididididit. Lets see if you can understand this then; If I want any crap out of you, I will squeeze your head. You'd best just prod him with your keyboard.If you squeeze his head you'll get far more than you expected. Who squeezed your head? |
No, not really.
Except for the fact that the old timers had to do it, so they're making sure that the newcombers have to. Nothing really past that except misplaced anger & meaningless, needless jealousy. Clint Oriiginal message follows: "Jack Twilley" wrote in message ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I can understand why Novice and Technician Plus required five words per minute -- the treaty and all -- but why did General require thirteen words per minute and Amateur Extra twenty words per minute? Is there a real reason? Jack. - -- Jack Twilley jmt at twilley dot org http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/jNLQGPFSfAB/ezgRAnT0AJ9JwznusaVpDFgsbvd7gSlS6+zffACgqPSs Eax4C1KwKboU55NhahcuAsY= =jOXm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
"Brian" wrote in message om... Welp Dan, as I strap on my dragon armor and jousting butt-plug, please orient me toward the 1951 anachronism of the 1923 AEFC standard. didididididit. LOL, well said. Don't forget, too, when you drive to the testing site to take the morse code test you have to first hand-crank the engine of your horseless carriage to get it started. *OOOPS*, i'm sorry, that too is outdated. They have invented electrically driven starters since then. Isn't it neat how old ways are replaced by new more efficient & useful ones? *OOOOP*, my bad again... I forgot about the PCTA crybabies. Clint |
Don't forget, too, when you drive to the testing site to take the morse code test you have to first hand-crank the engine of your horseless carriage to get it started. *OOOPS*, i'm sorry, that too is outdated. They have invented electrically driven starters since then. Isn't it neat how old ways are replaced by new more efficient & useful ones? *OOOOP*, my bad again... I forgot about the PCTA crybabies. Clint Here we go again with this standard transmission crap ...this time it has degenerated to starters .... Clint's logic ... no cars today have crank starters ... therefore CW is in that same category ...but wait ..why are there so many CW ham signals on the air ... ???? Clint am I a "crybaby" because I see a useful skill i.e. the 2nd most used amateur mode badmouthed in the most illogical , immature and counter productive manner. I really think that in any endeavor there are those for whatever reason like "****ing in the punchbowl". I very rarely operate SSB, look at or transmit pix, never work moon bounce or hunt for transmitters or any of the myriad of sub-groups that this service offers. But thank God that they are there ... a facet in the jewel that are available to me when and if I desire. Clint I certainly hope that when the test is dropped that the myriad of those new ops will bring into play those new "electric starter" modes that "will always get through". I personally would not bet the kids milk money on that assumption. 73 God Bless KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon PA |
"garigue" wrote in message news:59Gkb.825619$Ho3.226493@sccrnsc03... Here we go again with this standard transmission crap ...this time it has degenerated to starters .... and your point being? that just means there are MANY examples of why CW testing is outdated. Clint's logic ... no cars today have crank starters ... therefore CW is in that same category ...but wait ..why are there so many CW ham signals on the air ... ???? no problem with use of morse code. It's code TESTING that's outdated and is going to be removed. Clint am I a "crybaby" because I see a useful skill i.e. the 2nd most used amateur mode badmouthed in the most illogical , immature and counter productive manner. 2nd most used? that's debatable.. in fact, i'd be willing to bet it's far from the most used. AND, i'll play my own devil's advocate; it's widely agreed, with little dissention, that code use is on the decline... therefore, even IF it's as you assert (again, playing my own devil's advocate), this couldn't possibly be true indefinitely as it's use shrinks and deminishes. I really think that in any endeavor there are those for whatever reason like "****ing in the punchbowl". I very rarely operate SSB, look at or transmit pix, never work moon bounce or hunt for transmitters or any of the myriad of sub-groups that this service offers. But thank God that they are there ... a facet in the jewel that are available to me when and if I desire. and thank god CW is there, for those who CHOOSE to operate it. It just needs not be tested anymore, and won't be for much longer. It's going to be removed. Clint |
"Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... "garigue" wrote in message news:59Gkb.825619$Ho3.226493@sccrnsc03... Here we go again with this standard transmission crap ...this time it has degenerated to starters .... and your point being? that just means there are MANY examples of why CW testing is outdated. Huh ???? No Clint that is just a repeat of the same old crap I have been seeing for years on this group in a vain attept to prove CW is in its death throws. Clint's logic ... no cars today have crank starters ... therefore CW is in that same category ...but wait ..why are there so many CW ham signals on the air ... ???? no problem with use of morse code. It's code TESTING that's outdated and is going to be removed. Well then say that testing with out reference to the act of CW operation which I see as the target of the no-code folks ....as said before NCI .....not NCTI Clint am I a "crybaby" because I see a useful skill i.e. the 2nd most used amateur mode badmouthed in the most illogical , immature and counter productive manner. 2nd most used? that's debatable.. in fact, i'd be willing to bet it's far from the most used. What did I say ....2nd most used ...don't follow your logic there Clint AND, i'll play my own devil's advocate; it's widely agreed, with little dissention, that code use is on the decline... therefore, even IF it's as you assert (again, playing my own devil's advocate), this couldn't possibly be true indefinitely as it's use shrinks and deminishes. Can't figure out that statement Clint ....I would agree that the mode is not used as much as it was in the past but I would wonder with the internet if the service as a whole was taking a hit. I am not bemoaning that happening as life is life and change is change. There are a lot of wholesome hobbies or endeavors out there Clint but I hope the service remains viable for the next generation to enjoy. Perhaps that will come with testing of CW being eliminated ....I hope that a positive impact will happen ..but again I wouldn't bet the kid's college fund on it. God Bless 73 Tom Popovic KI3R Belle Vernon Pa |
"garigue" wrote in message . net... "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... "garigue" wrote in message news:59Gkb.825619$Ho3.226493@sccrnsc03... Here we go again with this standard transmission crap ...this time it has degenerated to starters .... and your point being? that just means there are MANY examples of why CW testing is outdated. Huh ???? No Clint that is just a repeat of the same old crap I have been seeing for years on this group in a vain attept to prove CW is in its death throws. Clint's logic ... no cars today have crank starters ... therefore CW is in that same category ...but wait ..why are there so many CW ham signals on the air ... ???? no problem with use of morse code. It's code TESTING that's outdated and is going to be removed. Well then say that testing with out reference to the act of CW operation which I see as the target of the no-code folks ....as said before NCI ....not NCTI Clint am I a "crybaby" because I see a useful skill i.e. the 2nd most used amateur mode badmouthed in the most illogical , immature and counter productive manner. 2nd most used? that's debatable.. in fact, i'd be willing to bet it's far from the most used. What did I say ....2nd most used ...don't follow your logic there Clint AND, i'll play my own devil's advocate; it's widely agreed, with little dissention, that code use is on the decline... therefore, even IF it's as you assert (again, playing my own devil's advocate), this couldn't possibly be true indefinitely as it's use shrinks and deminishes. It is NOT widely agreed that code use is on the decline. I am happy to report that articles earlier this on contest participation on the ARRL site show that there has a been a 20% rise in participation in the CW contests from the previous year while participation in voice contests stayed flat (i.e. no growth). Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message .com... "garigue" wrote in message . net... "Clint" rattlehead at computron dot net wrote in message ... "garigue" wrote in message news:59Gkb.825619$Ho3.226493@sccrnsc03... Here we go again with this standard transmission crap ...this time it has degenerated to starters .... and your point being? that just means there are MANY examples of why CW testing is outdated. Huh ???? No Clint that is just a repeat of the same old crap I have been seeing for years on this group in a vain attept to prove CW is in its death throws. Clint's logic ... no cars today have crank starters ... therefore CW is in that same category ...but wait ..why are there so many CW ham signals on the air ... ???? no problem with use of morse code. It's code TESTING that's outdated and is going to be removed. Well then say that testing with out reference to the act of CW operation which I see as the target of the no-code folks ....as said before NCI ....not NCTI Clint am I a "crybaby" because I see a useful skill i.e. the 2nd most used amateur mode badmouthed in the most illogical , immature and counter productive manner. 2nd most used? that's debatable.. in fact, i'd be willing to bet it's far from the most used. What did I say ....2nd most used ...don't follow your logic there Clint AND, i'll play my own devil's advocate; it's widely agreed, with little dissention, that code use is on the decline... therefore, even IF it's as you assert (again, playing my own devil's advocate), this couldn't possibly be true indefinitely as it's use shrinks and deminishes. It is NOT widely agreed that code use is on the decline. I am happy to report that articles earlier this on contest participation on the ARRL site show that there has a been a 20% rise in participation in the CW contests from the previous year while participation in voice contests stayed flat (i.e. no growth). Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Shhhhhhh !! Don't tell the facts, it will confuse the NCI crowd. Dan/W4NTI |
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