Totally ticked.
 

I canceled my Leage membership after their first restructuring proposal for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member! Seems the Arrl philosophy is that: if ham radio is to
survive it MUST sound like CB.


Tee'd Off

In article .net,
says...

I canceled my Leage membership after their first restructuring proposal for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member! Seems the Arrl philosophy is that: if ham radio is to
survive it MUST sound like CB.


Tee'd Off

Seems to me like you're getting mad at the wrong people.

Ham radio, like Life itself (I've said this before, and I'll
probably end up saying it again), is a mirror. You get back EXACTLY what
you put into it.

What you hear on the air is a reflection of the PERSONALITY of
each INDIVIDUAL operator. It has NOTHING to do with how hard they
studied for their license, or how much they know, or how many letters
they have after their name.

If ham radio is declining in the "quality" of what's heard on the
air, it's because of poor operators making life miserable for the
newbies, apparently all because of some misguided sense of loyalty. To
what or to whom this loyalty is directed, I have never understood.

Let me ask you something: Have you ever made comments on the air
that were derogatory to someone who was new to the hobby? Have you ever
adopted an air of superiority in the presence of a newbie?

If so, then YOU are part of the problem. If you do not feel you
can be civil to a new operator (remember, there was a day when NONE of
us had ever seen a microphone or transmitter, let alone operated one),
then simply ignore them and move on to something else.

The "Death of Ham Radio" has been predicted by many others for
many years. Yet, the Amateur Radio SERVICE endures to this day.
Different from what it was ten or twenty years ago, yes, but it endures.
This tells me that new licensees aren't the problem, and it tells me
that the ARRL isn't the problem.

What I see as the REAL problem are those "veterans" in the HOBBY
who have become so obsessed with their own ideas of whom is superior to
whom that they will deliberately make life on the air miserable for
anyone who doesn't measure up to their own standards. I think such
people would be doing much better to offer polite-but-firm correction to
operating errors, and be willing to SHARE their knowlege as opposed to
zealously guarding it like some grumpy dragon guarding their hoard.

You may not like the ARRL for whatever reason. Fine. That's your
choice (I'm proud to be a 'Lifer' myself). But would you find it so very
hard to remember and respect "The Amateur's Code" that they publish? It
dates all the way back to the League's founding, and the days of Hiram
Percy Maxim (without whom we wouldn't even HAVE Amateur Radio).

Chill out. The only things that will truly kill amateur radio are
forgetting its origins, WHY we have it today, and more anger and hatred
at newbies just because they have an easier time getting licensed than
some of us did.


--
Dr. Anton Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR)
kyrrin a/t bluefeathertech d-o=t c&o&m
Motorola Radio Programming & Service Available -
http://www.bluefeathertech.com/rf.html
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)

"Dr. Anton.T. Squeegee"
wrote in message
...
In article
nk
..net,
says...

I canceled my Leage membership after their
first restructuring proposal for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new
proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member! Seems the Arrl philosophy is
that: if ham radio is to
survive it MUST sound like CB.


Tee'd Off

Seems to me like you're getting mad at the wrong
people.

Ham radio, like Life itself (I've said this
before, and I'll
probably end up saying it again), is a mirror.
You get back EXACTLY what
you put into it.

What you hear on the air is a reflection of the
PERSONALITY of
each INDIVIDUAL operator. It has NOTHING to do
with how hard they
studied for their license, or how much they
know, or how many letters
they have after their name.

If ham radio is declining in the "quality" of
what's heard on the
air, it's because of poor operators making life
miserable for the
newbies, apparently all because of some
misguided sense of loyalty. To
what or to whom this loyalty is directed, I have
never understood.

Let me ask you something: Have you ever made
comments on the air
that were derogatory to someone who was new to
the hobby? Have you ever
adopted an air of superiority in the presence of
a newbie?

If so, then YOU are part of the problem. If you
do not feel you
can be civil to a new operator (remember, there
was a day when NONE of
us had ever seen a microphone or transmitter,
let alone operated one),
then simply ignore them and move on to something
else.

The "Death of Ham Radio" has been predicted by
many others for
many years. Yet, the Amateur Radio SERVICE
endures to this day.
Different from what it was ten or twenty years
ago, yes, but it endures.
This tells me that new licensees aren't the prob
lem, and it tells me
that the ARRL isn't the problem.

What I see as the REAL problem are those
"veterans" in the HOBBY
who have become so obsessed with their own ideas
of whom is superior to
whom that they will deliberately make life on
the air miserable for
anyone who doesn't measure up to their own
standards. I think such
people would be doing much better to offer
polite-but-firm correction to
operating errors, and be willing to SHARE their
knowledge as opposed to
zealously guarding it like some grumpy dragon
guarding their hoard.

You may not like the ARRL for whatever reason.
Fine. That's your
choice (I'm proud to be a 'Lifer' myself). But
would you find it so very
hard to remember and respect "The Amateur's
Code" that they publish? It
dates all the way back to the League's founding,
and the days of Hiram
Percy Maxim (without whom we wouldn't even HAVE
Amateur Radio).

Chill out. The only things that will truly kill
amateur radio are
forgetting its origins, WHY we have it today,
and more anger and hatred
at newbies just because they have an easier time
getting licensed than
some of us did.
--
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR)

Right on!!!!

Like the Radio school at Ft Gordon Ga? Where
students were already learning CW and Radio theory
in classes, and at K4WAR the guys got together and
studied for their license with instructors from
the school. Like you were going to fail with all
that help? Vs the determined blind guy who
learned it on his own? Like is not Fair, it is
what you make of it!

K7DUP......

You should have waited until after the FCC decides what to do with the
ARRL's "suggestion". Yes, I am a Tech and was furious when I seen that they
were wanting to grandfather the Techs to General with no written test. Just
because the ARRL suggested it, does not mean that it is set in stone yet.
FCC may have other ideas. Don't forget that the ARRL does not consist of so
many X number of board members at meetings. You and the rest of us as
members have a say in these matters also. More than likely they got input
from alot of other people and tallied it all up. Yet, I still would like to
know where the idea came from about grandfathering techs with no test.
73's OM
Ticked also, Mike KC2JGA


"Roger Gt" wrote in message
m...

"Dr. Anton.T. Squeegee"
wrote in message
...
In article
nk
.net,
says...

I canceled my Leage membership after their
first restructuring proposal for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new
proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member! Seems the Arrl philosophy is
that: if ham radio is to
survive it MUST sound like CB.


Tee'd Off

Seems to me like you're getting mad at the wrong
people.

Ham radio, like Life itself (I've said this
before, and I'll
probably end up saying it again), is a mirror.
You get back EXACTLY what
you put into it.

What you hear on the air is a reflection of the
PERSONALITY of
each INDIVIDUAL operator. It has NOTHING to do
with how hard they
studied for their license, or how much they
know, or how many letters
they have after their name.

If ham radio is declining in the "quality" of
what's heard on the
air, it's because of poor operators making life
miserable for the
newbies, apparently all because of some
misguided sense of loyalty. To
what or to whom this loyalty is directed, I have
never understood.

Let me ask you something: Have you ever made
comments on the air
that were derogatory to someone who was new to
the hobby? Have you ever
adopted an air of superiority in the presence of
a newbie?

If so, then YOU are part of the problem. If you
do not feel you
can be civil to a new operator (remember, there
was a day when NONE of
us had ever seen a microphone or transmitter,
let alone operated one),
then simply ignore them and move on to something
else.

The "Death of Ham Radio" has been predicted by
many others for
many years. Yet, the Amateur Radio SERVICE
endures to this day.
Different from what it was ten or twenty years
ago, yes, but it endures.
This tells me that new licensees aren't the prob
lem, and it tells me
that the ARRL isn't the problem.

What I see as the REAL problem are those
"veterans" in the HOBBY
who have become so obsessed with their own ideas
of whom is superior to
whom that they will deliberately make life on
the air miserable for
anyone who doesn't measure up to their own
standards. I think such
people would be doing much better to offer
polite-but-firm correction to
operating errors, and be willing to SHARE their
knowledge as opposed to
zealously guarding it like some grumpy dragon
guarding their hoard.

You may not like the ARRL for whatever reason.
Fine. That's your
choice (I'm proud to be a 'Lifer' myself). But
would you find it so very
hard to remember and respect "The Amateur's
Code" that they publish? It
dates all the way back to the League's founding,
and the days of Hiram
Percy Maxim (without whom we wouldn't even HAVE
Amateur Radio).

Chill out. The only things that will truly kill
amateur radio are
forgetting its origins, WHY we have it today,
and more anger and hatred
at newbies just because they have an easier time
getting licensed than
some of us did.
--
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR)

Right on!!!!

Like the Radio school at Ft Gordon Ga? Where
students were already learning CW and Radio theory
in classes, and at K4WAR the guys got together and
studied for their license with instructors from
the school. Like you were going to fail with all
that help? Vs the determined blind guy who
learned it on his own? Like is not Fair, it is
what you make of it!

K7DUP......

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:03:16 -0800, Dr. Anton.T. Squeegee
wrote:

In article .net,
says...

I canceled my Leage membership after their first restructuring proposal for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member! Seems the Arrl philosophy is that: if ham radio is to
survive it MUST sound like CB.


Tee'd Off

Seems to me like you're getting mad at the wrong people.

Ham radio, like Life itself (I've said this before, and I'll
probably end up saying it again), is a mirror. You get back EXACTLY what
you put into it.

What you hear on the air is a reflection of the PERSONALITY of
each INDIVIDUAL operator. It has NOTHING to do with how hard they
studied for their license, or how much they know, or how many letters
they have after their name.

If ham radio is declining in the "quality" of what's heard on the
air, it's because of poor operators making life miserable for the
newbies, apparently all because of some misguided sense of loyalty. To
what or to whom this loyalty is directed, I have never understood.

Let me ask you something: Have you ever made comments on the air
that were derogatory to someone who was new to the hobby? Have you ever
adopted an air of superiority in the presence of a newbie?

If so, then YOU are part of the problem. If you do not feel you
can be civil to a new operator (remember, there was a day when NONE of
us had ever seen a microphone or transmitter, let alone operated one),
then simply ignore them and move on to something else.

The "Death of Ham Radio" has been predicted by many others for
many years. Yet, the Amateur Radio SERVICE endures to this day.
Different from what it was ten or twenty years ago, yes, but it endures.
This tells me that new licensees aren't the problem, and it tells me
that the ARRL isn't the problem.

What I see as the REAL problem are those "veterans" in the HOBBY
who have become so obsessed with their own ideas of whom is superior to
whom that they will deliberately make life on the air miserable for
anyone who doesn't measure up to their own standards. I think such
people would be doing much better to offer polite-but-firm correction to
operating errors, and be willing to SHARE their knowlege as opposed to
zealously guarding it like some grumpy dragon guarding their hoard.

You may not like the ARRL for whatever reason. Fine. That's your
choice (I'm proud to be a 'Lifer' myself). But would you find it so very
hard to remember and respect "The Amateur's Code" that they publish? It
dates all the way back to the League's founding, and the days of Hiram
Percy Maxim (without whom we wouldn't even HAVE Amateur Radio).

Chill out. The only things that will truly kill amateur radio are
forgetting its origins, WHY we have it today, and more anger and hatred
at newbies just because they have an easier time getting licensed than
some of us did.

Well said, Sir.

73, Leo

BRAVO Anton....BRAVO !


"Dr. Anton.T. Squeegee" wrote in message
...
In article .net,
says...

I canceled my Leage membership after their first restructuring proposal
for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member! Seems the Arrl philosophy is that: if ham radio is to
survive it MUST sound like CB.


Tee'd Off

Seems to me like you're getting mad at the wrong people.

Ham radio, like Life itself (I've said this before, and I'll
probably end up saying it again), is a mirror. You get back EXACTLY what
you put into it.

What you hear on the air is a reflection of the PERSONALITY of
each INDIVIDUAL operator. It has NOTHING to do with how hard they
studied for their license, or how much they know, or how many letters
they have after their name.

If ham radio is declining in the "quality" of what's heard on the
air, it's because of poor operators making life miserable for the
newbies, apparently all because of some misguided sense of loyalty. To
what or to whom this loyalty is directed, I have never understood.

Let me ask you something: Have you ever made comments on the air
that were derogatory to someone who was new to the hobby? Have you ever
adopted an air of superiority in the presence of a newbie?

If so, then YOU are part of the problem. If you do not feel you
can be civil to a new operator (remember, there was a day when NONE of
us had ever seen a microphone or transmitter, let alone operated one),
then simply ignore them and move on to something else.

The "Death of Ham Radio" has been predicted by many others for
many years. Yet, the Amateur Radio SERVICE endures to this day.
Different from what it was ten or twenty years ago, yes, but it endures.
This tells me that new licensees aren't the problem, and it tells me
that the ARRL isn't the problem.

What I see as the REAL problem are those "veterans" in the HOBBY
who have become so obsessed with their own ideas of whom is superior to
whom that they will deliberately make life on the air miserable for
anyone who doesn't measure up to their own standards. I think such
people would be doing much better to offer polite-but-firm correction to
operating errors, and be willing to SHARE their knowlege as opposed to
zealously guarding it like some grumpy dragon guarding their hoard.

You may not like the ARRL for whatever reason. Fine. That's your
choice (I'm proud to be a 'Lifer' myself). But would you find it so very
hard to remember and respect "The Amateur's Code" that they publish? It
dates all the way back to the League's founding, and the days of Hiram
Percy Maxim (without whom we wouldn't even HAVE Amateur Radio).

Chill out. The only things that will truly kill amateur radio are
forgetting its origins, WHY we have it today, and more anger and hatred
at newbies just because they have an easier time getting licensed than
some of us did.


--
Dr. Anton Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR)
kyrrin a/t bluefeathertech d-o=t c&o&m
Motorola Radio Programming & Service Available -
http://www.bluefeathertech.com/rf.html
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)

"ARRL Philosophy" wrote in message
link.net...
I canceled my Leage membership after their first restructuring proposal
for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member! Seems the Arrl philosophy is that: if ham radio is to
survive it MUST sound like CB.


Tee'd Off

You may have cancelled your ARRL Membership, but I am afraid
that the greater percentage of hams will continue to send their Yearly
subscription (tribute?) to the snooty yankees in their ivy covered brick
walls at 225 Main Street, just like they have continued to do so for
the past 5-10-20-30+ Years. Just like the lemmings they are, they just
cannot seem to pry themselves away from that shi+ self-serving magazine
that's in reality, more advertising than relative topic. Truly pathetic.

(Tell me, does the ink in QST still rub off onto
your thumb when you rub the print like it used
to do in the 70's and 80's - before I wised up
and left these *******s subscripton letter in file 19?)

What I mean to say is, do they still use the same thin cheap paper stock
and that
half-assed ink that not only smells like acetone solvent, but is of a worse
grade than the ink used for the daily newspaper, which is usually cheaper.
Makes you wonder if their printer back then was some
New Haven sweatshop factory, staffed with min-wage wetbacks that ducked
outta sight whenever the INS van pulled up in the parking lot out
front.....)

"Mike" wrote:
(snip) Yet, I still would like to
know where the idea came from
about grandfathering techs with
no test.


I think you meant to say no "additional" written test, Mike. I suspect the
idea comes from the fact that the current Technician license already allows
HF access with the simple addition of the code test. In other words, the
current Technician license exam already covers much of the material needed
for HF access. Therefore, it makes more sense to grandfather them into a
license class with HF access than into one without. Of course, that's just
my take on it. If you really want to know why ARRL decided to do so, ask
them.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

What I see as the REAL problem are those "veterans" in the HOBBY
who have become so obsessed with their own ideas of whom is superior to
whom that they will deliberately make life on the air miserable for
anyone who doesn't measure up to their own standards. I think such
people would be doing much better to offer polite-but-firm correction to
operating errors, and be willing to SHARE their knowlege as opposed to
zealously guarding it like some grumpy dragon guarding their hoard.

When I got my "extra lite" :-) I made a number of "newbie" type errors,
but soon learned.
What I don't like is when, years before on learning my way around packet
on 2m, I made
some newbie errors and then learned, but some other packet operator
assumed that
I would always make such errors and got banned off his maibox BBS. (I
hadn't distingushed
between private mailboxes and more public BBSs just yet, and posted a
general ham interest
article). A polite but firm correction would have been enough. Turns
out other people
had some problems with him....


You may not like the ARRL for whatever reason. Fine. That's your
choice (I'm proud to be a 'Lifer' myself). But would you find it so very
hard to remember and respect "The Amateur's Code" that they publish? It
dates all the way back to the League's founding, and the days of Hiram
Percy Maxim (without whom we wouldn't even HAVE Amateur Radio).

Chill out. The only things that will truly kill amateur radio are
forgetting its origins, WHY we have it today, and more anger and hatred
at newbies just because they have an easier time getting licensed than
some of us did.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Mike" wrote:
(snip) Yet, I still would like to
know where the idea came from
about grandfathering techs with
no test.


I think you meant to say no "additional" written test, Mike. I suspect
the
idea comes from the fact that the current Technician license already
allows
HF access with the simple addition of the code test. In other words, the
current Technician license exam already covers much of the material needed
for HF access. Therefore, it makes more sense to grandfather them into a
license class with HF access than into one without. Of course, that's just
my take on it. If you really want to know why ARRL decided to do so, ask
them.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


I agree with that answer. I had to take both the Novice and Tech written to
get my Tech no-code. So what? I think it's a great idea to get on HF!!

"starwars" wrote:

"Lloyd Davies" whined:
I agree with that answer. I had to take
both the Novice and Tech written to
get my Tech no-code. So what? I
think it's a great idea to get on HF!!

Yeah, you have tried for over 10 frigging
years and you are too lazy and stupid to
apply yourself to learn either the code or
the General theory, so you just want it
given to you because of your mental
disability.


Good grief. I hadn't noticed this was being cross posted to
"rec.radio.amateur.misc." If I had, I wouldn't have wasted time writing a
serious comment.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

ARRL Philosophy wrote in message hlink.net...
I canceled my Leage membership after their first restructuring proposal for
amateur radio. Now, after seeing their new proposal, I wish I had NEVER
been a member!

Good, now go and get completely lost, you old fart. We are sick to
death of your whining.

- Stewart
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MURS-OPEN

"Lloyd Davies The GREAT TIME LORD" wrote in message
.. .

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Mike" wrote:
(snip) Yet, I still would like to
know where the idea came from
about grandfathering techs with
no test.


I think you meant to say no "additional" written test, Mike. I suspect
the
idea comes from the fact that the current Technician license already
allows
HF access with the simple addition of the code test. In other words, the
current Technician license exam already covers much of the material
needed
for HF access. Therefore, it makes more sense to grandfather them into a
license class with HF access than into one without. Of course, that's
just
my take on it. If you really want to know why ARRL decided to do so, ask
them.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


I agree with that answer. I had to take both the Novice and Tech written
to
get my Tech no-code. So what? I think it's a great idea to get on HF!!

I heartily agree... read on.

If you ever had to struggle through the period
of no-voice novice, you might never wish that
particular chore on anyone. I got my first Novice
in '75, and let it lapse due primarily to the lack
of voice priviliges (and no manuals for the
boatanchors I'd been given). CB was just a lot
more fun.

I got my second novice in '89, man, what a
difference! Sunspots were coming on, 10M
was hopping, and I worked for a commercial
radio shop. That's what Ham Radio is all about,
for me.... not hazing, but graduated challenges.

The greatest concern, and one which I don't think
has been addressed in this thread yet, is the fact
that our spectrum is in danger. We need more
occupants to help occupy it... and HF voice
priviliges are the only carrot left to put on the stick.
This is a graying hobby.
__
Steve
KI5YG
..

In article , " Stephen Cowell"
writes:

If you ever had to struggle through the period
of no-voice novice, you might never wish that
particular chore on anyone.

I had a no-voice, nonrenewable, nonretakeable Novice back in 1967.

Had a great time with it.

I got my first Novice
in '75, and let it lapse due primarily to the lack
of voice priviliges (and no manuals for the
boatanchors I'd been given). CB was just a lot
more fun.

I've never been on cb. Ham radio seemed like way more fun.

I got my second novice in '89, man, what a
difference! Sunspots were coming on, 10M
was hopping, and I worked for a commercial
radio shop. That's what Ham Radio is all about,
for me.... not hazing, but graduated challenges.

Hazing?

The greatest concern, and one which I don't think
has been addressed in this thread yet, is the fact
that our spectrum is in danger.

It's always been in danger. Other services have always looked
at our allocations and asked why they couldn't have some.

We need more
occupants to help occupy it... and HF voice
priviliges are the only carrot left to put on the stick.

We have 683,000 US hams today. That's about 2-1/2 times
what there were back when I got started in 1967. If the
bands aren't crowded, it's because existing hams aren't
on the air, not because there aren't enough hams.

This is a graying hobby.

Think about why.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article , " Stephen Cowell"
writes:


If you ever had to struggle through the period
of no-voice novice, you might never wish that
particular chore on anyone.


I had a no-voice, nonrenewable, nonretakeable Novice back in 1967.

Had a great time with it.


I got my first Novice
in '75, and let it lapse due primarily to the lack
of voice priviliges (and no manuals for the
boatanchors I'd been given). CB was just a lot
more fun.


I've never been on cb. Ham radio seemed like way more fun.


I got my second novice in '89, man, what a
difference! Sunspots were coming on, 10M
was hopping, and I worked for a commercial
radio shop. That's what Ham Radio is all about,
for me.... not hazing, but graduated challenges.


Hazing?

There is no qualification that someone, somewhere, somehow thinks is Hazing.


If the proposed plan to upgrade Technicians to General happens, will
not those who test afterward be able to claim that their (presumably)
more difficult test is "hazing"?

I would. If I were a prospective new ham, I wouldn't be thinking about
one-time "adjustments", the history of Ham radio, or anything like that.
I'd hear about the new tests, and be annoyed at the seeming
discrimination or "hazing".

I'd probably call the whole thing an attempt by old time hams to keep
new people out of the avocation. That is what it would look like.

This about time for Bill to chime in with one of those "life is a bitch,
and then you die" comments. After which point I as a prospective ham,
would then apply the arguments he uses against him.


The greatest concern, and one which I don't think
has been addressed in this thread yet, is the fact
that our spectrum is in danger.



It's always been in danger. Other services have always looked
at our allocations and asked why they couldn't have some.


We need more
occupants to help occupy it... and HF voice
priviliges are the only carrot left to put on the stick.


We have 683,000 US hams today. That's about 2-1/2 times
what there were back when I got started in 1967. If the
bands aren't crowded, it's because existing hams aren't
on the air, not because there aren't enough hams.

ahhh, get more people on HF argument. Sorry, that argument doesn't
work, because there is a way to get even *more* people on HF by simply
giving licenses away. Maybe we should look into registration for ham
licenses when we get our drivers license?

And I don't know about others, but when I tune through the bands, there
is plenty to listen to. Now that the cycle is winding down, 75/80 gets
downright crowded in the evenings.

Ludicrous mode on:

Maybe the new influx of Hams can do something about making poor
propagation on 10 meters go away. And what's the deal with 20 meters? It
goes away in the evenings just when I sit down to do some serious
hammin! First thing they have to do is petition the F.C.C. to make it
illegal to have bad propagation........... ;^)

Ludicrous mode off...

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:

N2EY wrote:
In article , " Stephen Cowell"
writes:

I got my second novice in '89, man, what a
difference! Sunspots were coming on, 10M
was hopping, and I worked for a commercial
radio shop. That's what Ham Radio is all about,
for me.... not hazing, but graduated challenges.


Graduated challenges = obtaining a Novice license for the second time.

Hazing?

There is no qualification that someone, somewhere, somehow thinks is Hazing.

As used in regard to amateur radio licensing, hazing may be considered
to be anything that one thinks he can't do or simply refuses to do.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote in message ...

As used in regard to amateur radio licensing, hazing may be considered
to be anything that one thinks he can't do or simply refuses to do.

Dave K8MN

I simply refuse to work French amateurs out of band.

bb

William wrote:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(William) wrote in message om...
Dave Heil wrote in message ...

As used in regard to amateur radio licensing, hazing may be considered
to be anything that one thinks he can't do or simply refuses to do.

I simply refuse to work French amateurs out of band.

Do you have a reference of all international band allocations so
that when an Amateur of ANY nationality answers your call, you can
quickly look up that nations's regulations and determine the alidity
of that station's operation?

That's what you're suggesting.

Steve, K4YZ

No, Steve, I'm not suggesting that at all. Notice that I referenced
one country, and that was France. See above. A French amateur
replied to Dave what the French 6 Meter allocations were, and another
ham on here verified the allocations via a French telecom website.
Its really not as hard as you think it is.

I'll try clearing it up for you again, Willie. I am responsible for
operating my station in spectrum assigned to me. I am in no way
responsible for ensuring that other radio amateurs operate where they
are licensed to be. French amateurs, regardless of amateur band, are
responsible for operating where their licenses permit them to be, using
modes permitted them and using power which their licenses permit.

It has been suggested on numerous occasions that you should take the
matter up with the RAEF or the French PTT. I'll now suggest it once
again. March with your banner held high. Write petitions. Lobby the
French government. Make certain that scofflaw French amateurs are taken
to task by their government.

So if you know that Frenchmen are on 6 Meters out of band, do you keep
working them?

You sit there with your charts and graphs in hopes of a 6m opening to
anywhere, ready to maintain order on the band. I'll operate under the
terms of my license and let authorities elsewhere control their amateur
radio licensees.

What if it's a downtown Dar el Salam hazing ritual?

I've seen downtown Dar es Salaam hazing rituals. You couldn't handle
one.

Dave K8MN

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
Dave Heil wrote in message
...

As used in regard to amateur radio licensing, hazing may be
considered
to be anything that one thinks he can't do or simply refuses to do.


Dave K8MN

I simply refuse to work French amateurs out of band.

Do you have a reference of all international band allocations so
that when an Amateur of ANY nationality answers your call, you can
quickly look up that nations's regulations and determine the alidity
of that station's operation?

That's what you're suggesting.

Steve, K4YZ

No, Steve, I'm not suggesting that at all. Notice that I referenced
one country, and that was France. See above. A French amateur
replied to Dave what the French 6 Meter allocations were, and another
ham on here verified the allocations via a French telecom website.
Its really not as hard as you think it is.

Sure it is...If we do it for "the French", then why not the
Russians, Poles, Czechs, South Africans, etc etc etc...?!?!

I didn't say that. I said "if you knew that they were operating out
of band, would you work them anyway?"

No one other than Dave, and now you, has ever proposed having to know
all amateur allocations at all times.

The question was, "if you knew..."

Are you saying that you would knowingly work out of band amateurs?

So if you know that Frenchmen are on 6 Meters out of band, do you keep
working them? What if it's a downtown Dar el Salam hazing ritual?

How am I to know from one day to the next what a Frrenchman's
allocations are?

You're not being asked to.

I asked "if you knew that they were operating out of band, would you
work them anyway?"

No one other than Dave, and now you, has ever proposed having to know
all amateur allocations at all times.

The question was, "if you knew..."

Are you saying that you would knowingly work out of band amateurs?

He might. To paraphrase, "lonely are the brave." :-)

Thier government is just as likely as ours is to
change the rules, so without keeping a database of some sort on
EVERYONE'S allocations, how is a prudent American Amateur to know if
the guy/gal he's working is "legit" or not?

That wasn't the question, and you know it. Just another diversion.
But I'll bet they're the same as when Dave was working out-of-banders
in downtown Dar es Salaam.

So many Dave apologists, so little time.

Go easy on Dave. He is busy revolutionizing the Internet by using
it as a transporter to download hardware.

Important work. Actual pioneering.

After that, who knows? He might invent transparent aluminum
and tell Scotty all about it.

He'll go where no ham has gone before...

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

Go easy on Dave. He is busy revolutionizing the Internet by using
it as a transporter to download hardware.

Important work. Actual pioneering.

You might recall that I provided you with a definition for "firmware",
not "hardware" and I pointed you to the Ten-Tec site where downloads of
"Firmware Upgrades" can be undertaken. It looks as if anyone who
depends upon you for accurate information is doomed to disappointment.
You aren't one to let facts stand in your way.

He'll go where no ham has gone before...

I've already been to several places where damned few have gone.
Any licensed ham is apt to have gone a number of places where you've not
been.

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

Go easy on Dave. He is busy revolutionizing the Internet by using
it as a transporter to download hardware.

Important work. Actual pioneering.

You might recall that I provided you with a definition for "firmware",
not "hardware" and I pointed you to the Ten-Tec site where downloads of
"Firmware Upgrades" can be undertaken. It looks as if anyone who
depends upon you for accurate information is doomed to disappointment.
You aren't one to let facts stand in your way.

Yah. Da pros only look to Ten-Tec for information on definitions.

Shure dey do, big daddy dave.

You're getting more bizarre every day.

Hmmm...your Matter Transformer must have malfunctioned in
downloading all that hardware...made you irritable and gave you
IBS.

He'll go where no ham has gone before...

I've already been to several places where damned few have gone.
Any licensed ham is apt to have gone a number of places where you've not
been.

Ooooo! More foam! :-)

Hell kicked you out?!?

I've been (indirectly) to the Moon, Mars, Venus, all without needing
any license. That includes "working" a station ON the Moon. No
QSL, though, although I've got some printouts on it.

What is all this stuff about going where the damned have gone?
Is morsemanship really all that bad?

LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

Go easy on Dave. He is busy revolutionizing the Internet by using
it as a transporter to download hardware.

Important work. Actual pioneering.

You might recall that I provided you with a definition for "firmware",
not "hardware" and I pointed you to the Ten-Tec site where downloads of
"Firmware Upgrades" can be undertaken. It looks as if anyone who
depends upon you for accurate information is doomed to disappointment.
You aren't one to let facts stand in your way.

Yah. Da pros only look to Ten-Tec for information on definitions.

Shure dey do, big daddy dave.

You're getting more bizarre every day.

Maybe it slipped your mind that the definition did not come from
Ten-Tec, old boy. Again, I provided you with a definition and a link to
the Ten-Tec site containing the term. Take it up with the providers of
the serveral definitions I found online and/or with Ten-Tec. They don't
seem to support your earlier statements on the topic.

Hmmm...your Matter Transformer must have malfunctioned in
downloading all that hardware...made you irritable and gave you
IBS.

I'll correct you once again. I never wrote of downloading hardware. I
wrote of downloading firmware upgrades. Do try and keep things
straight.

He'll go where no ham has gone before...

I've already been to several places where damned few have gone.
Any licensed ham is apt to have gone a number of places where you've not
been.

Ooooo! More foam! :-)

Naw, Len, just more fact.

Hell kicked you out?!?

I've been (indirectly) to the Moon, Mars, Venus, all without needing
any license. That includes "working" a station ON the Moon. No
QSL, though, although I've got some printouts on it.

As far as I'm concerned, Leonard, you're still waaaaay out there.

What is all this stuff about going where the damned have gone?
Is morsemanship really all that bad?

I see you in an amateur radio purgatory--still waiting for a decision on
whether you'll be in or out.


Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil emineminent scientist
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Maybe it slipped your mind that the definition did not come from
Ten-Tec, old boy.

Noooo...I provided the definition based on the whole rest of the
electronics industry.

Again, I provided you with a definition and a link to
the Ten-Tec site containing the term. Take it up with the providers of
the serveral definitions I found online and/or with Ten-Tec. They don't
seem to support your earlier statements on the topic.

Snarly dave, stay in retirement on that pension...you couldn't get
a job in the real electronics industry under your daffynitions.

Go play with your radios and try to understand the instructions for
your mighty orion. Are they written in English?


I'll correct you once again. I never wrote of downloading hardware. I
wrote of downloading firmware upgrades. Do try and keep things
straight.

It's hard to play straight in this radio vaudeville slapstick. :-)

Don't forget the HCF instruction!


I see you in an amateur radio purgatory--still waiting for a decision on
whether you'll be in or out.

Poor baby. Your imagination giving you poor pictures again?

Develop them. I suggest Kodak D-76.

Dial up Ten-Tec and see if they have some fantasy firmware to
download. Upgrade your imagination.

LHA / WMD

On 05 Feb 2004 20:00:23 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

snip

Poor baby. Your imagination giving you poor pictures again?

Develop them. I suggest Kodak D-76.

Now THAT brought back memories - rolling 620 Verichrome Pan film into
the developing tank under that @#$%^ dark green safelight....mixing
the developer and getting it to exactly 68 degrees F.......another
hobby, another time - long ago.

D-76 is good for B&W film only, though. These discussions are far too
colourful for anything less than Ektachrome.....definitely Kodak
moments, though!

snip

LHA / WMD

73, Leo

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil emineminent scientist
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Maybe it slipped your mind that the definition did not come from
Ten-Tec, old boy.

Noooo...I provided the definition based on the whole rest of the
electronics industry.

You provided? Your statement seems at odds with the other definitions
in existence.

Again, I provided you with a definition and a link to
the Ten-Tec site containing the term. Take it up with the providers of
the serveral definitions I found online and/or with Ten-Tec. They don't
seem to support your earlier statements on the topic.

Snarly dave, stay in retirement on that pension...you couldn't get
a job in the real electronics industry under your daffynitions.

Go play with your radios and try to understand the instructions for
your mighty orion. Are they written in English?

I'll take that as your only way of conceding a point.

I'll correct you once again. I never wrote of downloading hardware. I
wrote of downloading firmware upgrades. Do try and keep things
straight.

It's hard to play straight in this radio vaudeville slapstick. :-)

I'll bet it is, especially when you have no material. You'll have to
fall back on your usual, the tap dancing routine.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil emineminent scientist
writes:


Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil



writes:

Maybe it slipped your mind that the definition did not come from
Ten-Tec, old boy.

Noooo...I provided the definition based on the whole rest of the
electronics industry.


You provided? Your statement seems at odds with the other definitions
in existence.

Like:

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/firmware

http://dict.die.net/firmware/

http://www.phonescoop.com/glossary/term.php?gid=112

http://playground.sun.com/1275/bindi...-pic-1_1d.html

hmm, even the IEEE has it wrong too! ;^)

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...212127,00.html

http://www.atis.org/tg2k/_firmware.html

http://www.cheap-computers-and-cheap.../Firmware.html

http://iroi.seu.edu.cn/books/ee_dic/whatis/firmware.htm

The internet, superb source of information that it is, wasn't able to
provide any other definitions of firmware.


Again, I provided you with a definition and a link to
the Ten-Tec site containing the term. Take it up with the providers of
the serveral definitions I found online and/or with Ten-Tec. They don't
seem to support your earlier statements on the topic.

Snarly dave, stay in retirement on that pension...you couldn't get
a job in the real electronics industry under your daffynitions.

Go play with your radios and try to understand the instructions for
your mighty orion. Are they written in English?


I'll take that as your only way of conceding a point.


I'll correct you once again. I never wrote of downloading hardware. I
wrote of downloading firmware upgrades. Do try and keep things
straight.

It's hard to play straight in this radio vaudeville slapstick. :-)


I'll bet it is, especially when you have no material. You'll have to
fall back on your usual, the tap dancing routine.

Be nice, Dave! ;^)

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil emineminent
scientist
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Maybe it slipped your mind that the definition did not come from
Ten-Tec, old boy.

Noooo...I provided the definition based on the whole rest of the
electronics industry.

You provided? Your statement seems at odds with the other definitions
in existence.

Poor baby. You've never programmed a PLD or even erased and
re-burned an EPROM, have you? You don't know what "microcode"
for a minicomputer is (the instruction set decoder and router) and
haven't programmed a single CPU

You haven't had an associate membership in the ACM and I'll bet
you don't know what the acronym stands for. Your acrimony stands
in the way of understanding acronyms not defined by ARRL.

Put you in front of a Microchip PIC Assembler Development Program
and you would be LOST, even for the "entry-level" PIC, the 16F84.
You wouldn't know any details of the PIC 16F71 that AADE uses
(it's used in Neil's neat little frequency counter sold to many hams).

You don't know the difference between Assembler and Interpreter
and Compiler programs, haven't done squat about learning any of
that, or using them in any sort of designed-by-self application, yet
you have the puerile perfidy to accuse working electronics
engineers of "not knowing something."

All you can do is BEEP, little fella, and walk around stuffy and
like the south end of a mule going north bray a bunch of nonsense
you don't know about. You talk only bullstuff BLUFF, herr robust.

I'll take that as your only way of conceding a point.

Noooooo. Snarly dave, you just can't take anything.

Your idea of "concession" in opinions is to CONCEDE to your
nonsense BLUFF at knowing anything about electronics-radio
hardware and theory.


I'll bet it is, especially when you have no material. You'll have to
fall back on your usual, the tap dancing routine.

Had a pair of Haney Plates once...but you have NO idea what
those are, either, do you?


Snarly dave, to make amends, I'd like to buy you a bier...except
I know you wouldn't take that lying down...

LHA / WMD

In article , Leo
writes:

On 05 Feb 2004 20:00:23 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

snip

Poor baby. Your imagination giving you poor pictures again?

Develop them. I suggest Kodak D-76.

Now THAT brought back memories - rolling 620 Verichrome Pan film into
the developing tank under that @#$%^ dark green safelight....mixing
the developer and getting it to exactly 68 degrees F.......another
hobby, another time - long ago.

D-76 is good for B&W film only, though. These discussions are far too
colourful for anything less than Ektachrome.....definitely Kodak
moments, though!

You had a safelight? I was so poor I had to catch fireflies and keep
them in an old jelly jar for a safelight. Only had the red-orange fire-
flies in my growing-up town, no green. :-)

I'll omit mentions of Microdol, forced development to extend Super-
XX film speed, Promicrol film developer or FR monobaths, the lovely
odor of acetic acid stop-bath, DuPont Varigam filters, bulk-load 5-
roll-packs of 35mm and double changing bags, SLRs and the
ability to hold depth-of-field as you wanted it while composing the
picture in the pentaprism viewfinder. Those have nothing to do with
amateur radio policy discussions about Janet Jackson's breast
or her sister Michael.

I still have the old developing trays and print dryer, long since
converted to etching trays for PCBs and a heater for the trays to
use the last, loaded ferric chloride etchant in the jug. All my
photography has gone digital and "processing" done in the
computer.

All but one of the PCTAs in here buy ready-made rigs, don't
make their own. The holdout PCTA "designs his own ham
equipment" such as the Elecraft K2 kit he made. :-) All are
"advancing the state of the amateur art" and showing "the unique
ability of the amateur to extend good will" (as stated in FCC's
47 C.F.R. 97.1). :-)

How a boot dat, ey? :-)

LHA / WMD

On 07 Feb 2004 06:57:52 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:

On 05 Feb 2004 20:00:23 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

snip

Poor baby. Your imagination giving you poor pictures again?

Develop them. I suggest Kodak D-76.

Now THAT brought back memories - rolling 620 Verichrome Pan film into
the developing tank under that @#$%^ dark green safelight....mixing
the developer and getting it to exactly 68 degrees F.......another
hobby, another time - long ago.

D-76 is good for B&W film only, though. These discussions are far too
colourful for anything less than Ektachrome.....definitely Kodak
moments, though!

You had a safelight? I was so poor I had to catch fireflies and keep
them in an old jelly jar for a safelight. Only had the red-orange fire-
flies in my growing-up town, no green. :-)

My flies all died, so I bought the light. It was so dim, it took
about 10 minutes before you could vaguely see anything at all in the
darkroom. Finally gave up and learned to load the tank by
feel....still remember the bright light (caused by static electricity,
I suppose) when removing the tape at the end of the 620 film, securing
it to the backing paper......looked pretty cool in the dark!


I'll omit mentions of Microdol, forced development to extend Super-
XX film speed, Promicrol film developer or FR monobaths, the lovely
odor of acetic acid stop-bath, DuPont Varigam filters, bulk-load 5-
roll-packs of 35mm and double changing bags, SLRs and the
ability to hold depth-of-field as you wanted it while composing the
picture in the pentaprism viewfinder. Those have nothing to do with
amateur radio policy discussions about Janet Jackson's breast
or her sister Michael.

Or Kim's callsign. :)


I still have the old developing trays and print dryer, long since
converted to etching trays for PCBs and a heater for the trays to
use the last, loaded ferric chloride etchant in the jug.

All my photography has gone digital and "processing" done in the
computer.

Same here - never did get in to colour developing using the old
chemicals anyway - too buggy. Photoshop is much better, and a lot
easier to clean up!


All but one of the PCTAs in here buy ready-made rigs, don't
make their own. The holdout PCTA "designs his own ham
equipment" such as the Elecraft K2 kit he made. :-) All are
"advancing the state of the amateur art" and showing "the unique
ability of the amateur to extend good will" (as stated in FCC's
47 C.F.R. 97.1). :-)

How a boot dat, ey? :-)

Len, I tink you got dat right fer sure, eh? :)


LHA / WMD

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil emineminent
scientist
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Maybe it slipped your mind that the definition did not come from
Ten-Tec, old boy.

Noooo...I provided the definition based on the whole rest of the
electronics industry.

You provided? Your statement seems at odds with the other definitions
in existence.

Poor baby. You've never programmed... erased and
re-burned an EPROM...You don't know what "microcode"
for a minicomputer is... and
haven't programmed a single CPU
You haven't had an associate membership in the ACM...
...in front of a Microchip PIC Assembler Development Program
and you would be LOST, even for the "entry-level" PIC, the 16F84.
You wouldn't know any details of the PIC 16F71...
You don't know the difference between Assembler and Interpreter
and Compiler programs, haven't done squat about learning any of
that, or using them in any sort of designed-by-self application, yet
you have the puerile perfidy to accuse working electronics
engineers of "not knowing something."

Yada, yada, yada. You can't rant and froth but you can't hide (your
lack of knowledge of the term "firmware").


All you can do is BEEP, little fella, and walk around stuffy and
like the south end of a mule going north bray a bunch of nonsense
you don't know about. You talk only bullstuff BLUFF, herr robust.

You must not know any more about mules, Phineas T. Bluster than you do
of amateur radio. The braying end of a mule is the north end when the
mule's direction is the same. Mule stuff comes from mules and bull
stuff comes from bulls. I can't BEEP here, Leonard, 'cuz you wouldn't
be able to comprehend. I'll stick with typing for your benefit.

I'll take that as your only way of conceding a point.

Noooooo. Snarly dave, you just can't take anything.

Your idea of "concession" in opinions is to CONCEDE to your
nonsense BLUFF at knowing anything about electronics-radio
hardware and theory.

The bluff in this case is yours. You don't have a firm grasp on the
topic of firmware.

I'll bet it is, especially when you have no material. You'll have to
fall back on your usual, the tap dancing routine.

Had a pair of Haney Plates once...but you have NO idea what
those are, either, do you?

R.J Haney, Jill Haney? Be specific.

Snarly dave, to make amends, I'd like to buy you a bier...except
I know you wouldn't take that lying down...

Someone buy you a Stephen Wright book or something?

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Had a pair of Haney Plates once...but you have NO idea what
those are, either, do you?

R.J Haney, Jill Haney? Be specific.

There's only one kind of Haney Plates. Invented by Carol Haney's
dad.

You sure don't know much about gypsies! :-)

Do a time-step and let's see how you hold your marks.

LHA / WMD

In article , Leo
writes:

... Those have nothing to do with
amateur radio policy discussions about Janet Jackson's breast
or her sister Michael.

Or Kim's callsign. :)

I spoke hastily. Seems that Mr. Casey says something about "taking
a test" in order to talk about Janet Jackson's "unveiling" of an organ.

Such vital amateur radio policy matters must be studied in great
deal in order to wrathfully declare any [expletive deleteds] about it.

Grab the tongs, slide the paper into the fixer, flick off the
safelight and open the door. Something has developed!

Everything is negative. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Not enough exposure.

This group needs a mass oriongasm! :-)

LHA / WMD