"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article et, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Robert Casey
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

I don't see the 5 wpm for Extra thing as a problem - because I don't
think
it has a snowball's chance in

[expletive deleted]

of getting approved by the FCC.

One has to ask the question of what the FCC gets out of requiring code
for extras.

That's the key question these days for any license requirement these
days.
You make an excellent point.

Good...so far.

The problem is that it also applies in
other areas, such as "what does FCC
get out of protecting hams from BPL interference?"

Then will we expect you to make that argument to the
FCC when you comment?

HECK NO, BILL!

Thought that'd be the case.

The answer to that question could very well be
"Gee, we *don't* get anything
out of protecting hams from BPL - so we won't!".

Except they'd be violating there own charter to take
a totally hands off position.

As the
treaty requirement is now gone,
and no other service uses it, why bother.

Because hams *do* use it.

Yet hams do NOT need to pass a CW test to be
allowed to use morse.
If a "no-code" tech decides to operate
morse on VHF, they are free to do so without ever being
tested. If the ARRL proposal gets the nod, the same would
be true for Novice and Generals on HF also.

There are all sorts of things hams are allowed to do without being tested,
or
without being tested in depth. For example, a ham who passed the tests
before,
say, PSK-31 was invented is still allowed to use that mode without being
tested. But that does not mean no test is needed, or that the current
tests
should not have PSK-31 in them because the old tests didn't.

But the morse test is a skill test that someone can pass and
know nothing about the technical aspects of using morse
code. On a par with PSK-31, it would be like having
a keyboard test of sending PSK-31.

Some other services use it too, but not to any great
extent.

And certainly not to any extent that one would expect
any ham to need to know code to read or operate
with nay of those other services. By the way...what
other services are you thinking of?

There is still some maritime Morse code use,

And the liklihood of any ham needing or using morse
code to engage in a contact with such a morse
maritime operation is nil.

and it is used for ID in some applications.

And why would any ham need to know morse to understand
such an ID?

The FCC isn't
in the business of giving out gold stars for the
of it.

Not about "gold stars". About qualifications.
Of course there's differences of
opinion on what qualified means.

The retention of a 5 wpm test for Extra in light of no
code for all others makes even less sense.

I disagree. Morse code is the second
most popular mode in amateur radio. For
even the most privileged license to require
no skill in its use makes no sense.

WHY? No one is required to exhibiit ANY specific skill
in the USE of any other mode. The fact that hams around
the globe use languages other than English doesn't require
any specific ham to exhibit or show an ability to speak
English or any other language.

Code isn't a lid filter,

*No* test is a perfect "lid filter".

No test is in any way a lid filter...as you note below.

You misunderstand what I wrote.

No test is a *perfect* lid filter.

I repeat, no test in any way is a lid filter.

Particularly not a test given one time.
There are bad doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc., who have been through
much
more extensive and rigorous testing and education, yet were not
filtered
out by those testing and education systems.

I repeat...NO test is a lid filter.

If that's true, why have tests at all?

The tests for ham radio are NOT intended to ferret out
idiots and jerks who, having passed a test, decide they
don't want to operate within FCC rules or the rules
of common courtesy.

No test is a *perfect* lid filter.

Ditto my prior comments again.

as witness
14.313 back in the days of 13wpm to be allowed to operate there.

You mean before 1990? (medical waivers)

Are you assuming all the 14.313 loonies had code medical
waivers?

Nope - but neither is it safe to assume that none of them did.

Agreed, but as long as one passed a code test of 13 or even 20
wpm, then your comment about waivers is invalid. Yes, some
may have gotton there with a waiver...but not all.

Remember this:
All those folks on 14.313, 3950,
W6NUT, etc., passed *written* exams that
included the rules and regulations.
Most of them passed multiple written
exams yet they broke the rules anyway.
So obviously those written tests aren't a
perfect lid filter either.

Note that I wrote "perfect lid filter".

I repeat again, none of the ham tests today or in the
past ever had any expectation of keeping out 'lids'.
Knowledge of right and wrong itself has never
prevented some people from violating the law. We
see that everywhere...from petty criminals to such
well educated proffesions as legal, clergy, politics,
accountantants, medical...etc. No proffesion, regardless
of the knowledge one needs or is tested for to gain
entrance has ever been able to devise any specific
testing to exclude the equivalent of "lids." Perhaps
some professions (e.g. police) make a more concerted
effort via the use of pschological testing and evaluations
but even those don't screen all bad apples.

Shall we dump the rules and regs from those
written exams because they didn't do the job?

oh wait, that's what NCVEC is
proposing for the entry level!

A point we agree on.

Exactly.

BUT, again, knowledge of rules has never, in itself, served
as a deterent to people who choose to deliberately (note
I said deliberately, not by virtue of lack of knowledge)
break the rules.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK