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May 9th 04, 02:03 PM

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

"Phil Kane" wrote in message
. net...
On 7 May 2004 10:23:31 -0700, N2EY wrote:

It's been ten months and two days since WRC-2003 ended, and given
FCC's method of handling the issue it may well be another ten months
before we even get to the NPRM stage.

The NCI Petition for Rulemaking gave the FCC a quick out to drop
Element 1 immediately, with sufficient legal foundation to do so
without an NPRM (I read that part thoroughly, and it's right on the
mark).

I recall that even before any petitions were filed, both of us agreed
that if FCC "wanted to", Element 1 could be simply dropped once the
treaty changed. I believe the procedure is called "Memorandum Report
and Order" (could be some other name) but in any event a lot quicker
and simpler than a complete NPRM cycle.

The fact that it hasn't been done means that "someone's" fire hasn't
been lighted.

Right. Could also be that "someone" doesn't want to get in the middle
of the catfight and get scratched by both sides. In which case the
thing to do is to entertain all sorts of petitions, (we're up to what
- 17-18 of them so far?!) collect comments and reply comments and even
ex partes on each of them, and allow the whole thing to percolate
through the great bureaucratic machine. Then, when the flood of
petitions has been reduced to a trickle, issue an NPRM with long
comment time (like 98-143). Resolution of the issue could take years -
and every new petition just resets the clock.

IOW, don't hold yer breath. Lookit how long it took for the "incentive
licensing" proposals of the '60s to take place. First proposals in
1963, final plan in 1966, major changes in 1968 and 1969. And they had
far fewer proposals back then.

This is a phenominon that I am all too familiar with
when dealing with The Monkey House whether from within or from
without.

"Welcome To The Monkey House" ...

73 de Jim, N2EY

If you are right, then the US will be the last country with a code test,
decades after it no longer exists anywhere else. I don't think it will take
that long, though.

Firstly, I think the reason they didn't go for a memorandum report and
order is more mundane. They don't care about any catfight because they
don't care about amateur radio, period.

Secondly, I don't think they will wait for any more petitions.

Thirdly, I think that when the dust settles they will just do what they
were going to do anyway. Eliminate Element 1.

In the recent NPRM I submitted comments that many of the proposed changes,
although good, were mooted by the fact they referred to the former ITU code
test requirement as if it still existed. If they don't issue an NPRM on
this matter they will get comments on it submitted in every other one. I
know this because I will personally see to it.

As for any further restructuring, there are two separate issues:-

1) Re-farming the Novice frequencies an increasing the phone allocations.
Here there is already an NPRM, and I think they will carry it out. It just
gives the same amount of additional spectrum to phone as is now Novice CW.
This is what they are going to do. It's less than I wanted, and even less
than the ARRL or the NCVEC asked for, but I'm betting it's all done;

2) Eliminating supefluous licence classes. They will ultimately just do the
obvious, i.e. give Novices and Advanceds a free upgrade. They won't revive
the Novice and kill off the Tech. They will view that as a waste of time.
The FCC is all for simplification, and they will point to the petitions as
providing the consensus they were looking for, even thought they are
slightly different.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

May 9th 04, 02:12 PM

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Mike Coslo wrote in message
...
Alun wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
...

The ITU requirement for a code test was dropped on July 5th, 2003,
so evidently a majority around the world agree with you.

A majority of the world's governments that bothered to attend and
vote on the issue.

And all they did was change the rules so each country can decide for
itself what is required - just like the written test.

Although a suggested standard for written tests was added at the
same WRC, it's really more of a suggestion than anything else.
Countries can have wide-ranging interpretations of what's "needed".
For example, do you think ol' JY1 and his family had to sit for
written and code exams that were equivalent to what US or UK hams
had to pass for the same privileges? Or do you think the US writtens
compare with, say, those in the UK?

If I'm not mistaken, getting a license in some countries *requires*
successful completion of an approved training course. (I know the
"Foundation" license has this requirement). Doesn't matter if
someone is a Ph.D. in EE, they have to attend and pass the ham radio
classes to get the license - even though such courses are not part
of any treaty and not required in many other countries.

Actually, they only have to do the practical assesments, it's not
necessary to attend the course.

"Practical Assesmants" - as in tests? What, exactly, is required?

Imagine the reaction here in the USA if the code test were dropped
*and* getting a license required attendance at an approved ham radio
training course. Not a "one day wonder" course such as was recently
the subject of an article on the ARRL website ("Is Your License
Class Efficient" or some such title), but rather a multisession
course with quizzes and a final test that were not from a published
pool.

Point is, just because it's not in the treaty anymore doesn't mean
all countries will or should drop it.

Another point is that requirements vary from country to country, even
with CEPT and S25.5

I think the FCC will drop it, but they move at a snail's pace.

They're busy with other things. And perhaps they don't see what all
the fuss is about. After all, we're talking about a 5 wpm code test
that can be passed in a number of ways, with all sorts of
adaptations and accomodations (tone, volume, headphones, typewriter,
flashing light, Farnsworth, etc.) Add to this the fact that today
there are training aids undreamed of in the past - most of them free
or quite inexpensive.

I doubt if they even think about any of that

Why? Those accomodations and adaptations are all part of the rules. In
fact, a lot is left to the VE's judgement. For example, a *sending*
test can be substituted for the receiving test if the VEs think it is
justified.

I didn't think it would survive
for as long as a year after it was no longer needed, but it's only
nine months so far, so I could still be right.

I think you meant 'no longer required by treaty'. Whether something
is needed as a license requirement is purely a matter of opinion.

I meant both, since I agree with the FCC that it was only needed
because of the treaty

It's been ten months and two days since WRC-2003 ended, and given
FCC's method of handling the issue it may well be another ten months
before we even get to the NPRM stage.

That may be, although I still think it will be earlier than that.
How do we stand with the pool, BTW?

I just did an update. Google up the thread - WK3C wanted to change his
date!

Most of all, note that the 2000 restructuring did not result in lots
of new hams, even though the requirements for all classes of license
were lowered and the whole structure simplified.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I think abolishing the code test will remove a block in the system,
but won't have much effect unless we actively do something to
recruit new hams. I don't really see much of that happening right
now.

What would you suggest?

Here's what one ham is doing - and has been doing for years. I don't
know this ham personally, but he is right here in EPA. Note the
results and the reactions he gets. The following is a direct quote:

BEGIN QUOTE

I have had the privilege of teaching an after school activity, at the
local
middle school, for five years. I named it Tune in the World, and it
covers
many aspects of radio and television, and of course, pushes ham radio.
Each
year I have had several students, both boys and girls, obtain their
license
and try to help them continue on the hobby.

With this as my basis, I can tell you that 95% of the students were a
pleasure to work with and each year the district offers me a nice
salary to
teach the class and each year I decline it. Yes, it is a lot of work,
but
the students enjoy it and come away with a very positive idea of ham
radio.
The attention span varies, but I have found that I have to work at
making
sure I have an interesting program and that no part of it goes on and
on and
on. I set the rules at the first meeting and have not had any serious
problems. (My son and his friends have been my biggest problem.)

If one expects the students to sit in their chairs and listen to a
presentation for an hour, after being in school all day, they good
luck. I
combine power point presentations, live demonstrations, parts of ARRL
videos
short movies, simple building projects and computers. Interestingly,
the
students are always VERY interested in the Morse code and seem less so
in
modes connected with the computer.

I am not a STRONG disciplinarian, but we have rules and the kids obey
them
and something must be going right, a few kids who were in the previous
class
always take the next year's class and we always have 35 to 40
students. In
fact, my biggest problem is that other students want to join the class
after
it has been on a few weeks.

Last year at the last minute, I offer the Radio Merit Badge at Boy
Scout
Camp. I was given a terrible time and hoped for six kids. I had over
1/4
of the camp at the classes and more wanted to attend. We got a dozen
hams
out of that one.

So, if we want to get new, young hams, then think about reaching out
to the
Middle Schools, and Scout Camps. Just the camp alone, with eight
weeks of
camp, would produce between 80 and 100 new hams....with about 400
Scout
Camps in the USA, (Cub and Boy Scout) that would mean a very nice
increase
in our membership.

I do agree, that like every previous generation, the new hams need
help in
getting into the hobby and if nothing else, get their email address
and send
them info as well as forwarding the address to the ARRL, and local
clubs.
We can sit here and complain about the lack of young people in our
hobby, or
we can do something, or expect someone else to do it. Ahhh, it is
easier to
complain...right?

END QUOTE

Note particularly when he writes:

"the students are always VERY interested in the Morse code and seem
less so in
modes connected with the computer."

A block to the license process?

I guess the question is "What are YOU doing to recruit more hams",
Alun? The torch is being passed, and it is being passed to those that
"won" the code/no code debate.

Exactly.

I'm pretty new as a Ham, I try to recruit whenever possible, and will
welcome new hams regardless of their education. Some people might feel
otherwise at this point, having the wind knocked out of their sails,
so to speak.

My policy has always been that if they have the license, they're a
ham.

You guys won. You have the ball now. Using the NCI's polled
membership
as an example, you now want to make all Technicians Generals, and
advanced, Extra's. A drastic reduction in entrance requirements seems
to be the rationale du jour for the brave new Amateur Radio Service.

Exactly!

And who can really argue against it? Remember the question "why does
someone have to learn code to operate voice"? Well, if you accept that
argument, then what do you say when someone says "Why does it take a
Technician license to operate legal limit SSB on 2 meters but a
General to do the same thing on most of 20 meters?" and "Since the
Technician written allows maximum authorized power on all authorized
modes allocated to hams above 30 MHz,why is more theory testing needed
to do the same thing below 30 MHz?"

Etc.

Really it's your ball and your game now. Godspeed!

Don't hold yer breath, Mike.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I applied to be a counselor for the radio merit badge in boy scouts a
couple of months ago, but haven't heard anything back yet. The troop leader
is more interested in finding someone for the computer badge.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

PS: The requirement for a CW QSO has been dropped from the badge, which
makes it more practical for me to do it!

May 9th 04, 02:35 PM

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/9/2004 8:03 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

If you are right, then the US will be the last country with a code test,
decades after it no longer exists anywhere else. I don't think it will take
that long, though.

I was afraid of this.

Despite supporting Code testing, I am also of the mind that once the
majority has spoken, it's time to move on.

They could have pre-empted all this by stating something to the effect of
"based upon recent previous commnets on the subject, we are suspending the
requirement for Element 1 for access to HF licensure"....But noooooooooooo...

Firstly, I think the reason they didn't go for a memorandum report and
order is more mundane. They don't care about any catfight because they
don't care about amateur radio, period.

They really don't care about ANY radio, if you pay close attention to
thier "thought processes" in other actions, Alun. I really don't think there
are too many people up there who have a clear picture of what's going on in ANY
radio service.

Secondly, I don't think they will wait for any more petitions.

Sure they will! They are BUREAUCRATS! They are all about" petitions,
applications, hearings, and the PROCESS of administering...They are poorly
prepared to deal with the EFFECTS of thier actions!

Thirdly, I think that when the dust settles they will just do what they
were going to do anyway. Eliminate Element 1.

Months and months later.....

1) Re-farming the Novice frequencies an increasing the phone allocations.
Here there is already an NPRM, and I think they will carry it out. It just
gives the same amount of additional spectrum to phone as is now Novice CW.
This is what they are going to do. It's less than I wanted, and even less
than the ARRL or the NCVEC asked for, but I'm betting it's all done;

I dunno.....

There's been what...a half dozen petitions in the last five or six years
asking for the same thing and the FCC keeps thumbing thier noses at it...I
don't understand why since the Novice license hasn't generated much interest
since 1987

2) Eliminating supefluous licence classes. They will ultimately just do the
obvious, i.e. give Novices and Advanceds a free upgrade. They won't revive
the Novice and kill off the Tech. They will view that as a waste of time.
The FCC is all for simplification, and they will point to the petitions as
providing the consensus they were looking for, even thought they are
slightly different.

I really doubt they will "upgrade" the Novice since it's rapidly withering
to nothingness...The Advanced...?!?! Maybe, but a lot of the Advanced guys see
THIER license as being the last readily evident class as having been
13WPM/Old School tested and want nothing to do with "upgrades".

73

Steve, K4YZ

May 9th 04, 02:43 PM

Alun wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

"Phil Kane" wrote in message
t.net...

On 7 May 2004 10:23:31 -0700, N2EY wrote:

It's been ten months and two days since WRC-2003 ended, and given
FCC's method of handling the issue it may well be another ten months
before we even get to the NPRM stage.

The NCI Petition for Rulemaking gave the FCC a quick out to drop
Element 1 immediately, with sufficient legal foundation to do so
without an NPRM (I read that part thoroughly, and it's right on the
mark).

I recall that even before any petitions were filed, both of us agreed
that if FCC "wanted to", Element 1 could be simply dropped once the
treaty changed. I believe the procedure is called "Memorandum Report
and Order" (could be some other name) but in any event a lot quicker
and simpler than a complete NPRM cycle.

The fact that it hasn't been done means that "someone's" fire hasn't
been lighted.

Right. Could also be that "someone" doesn't want to get in the middle
of the catfight and get scratched by both sides. In which case the
thing to do is to entertain all sorts of petitions, (we're up to what
- 17-18 of them so far?!) collect comments and reply comments and even
ex partes on each of them, and allow the whole thing to percolate
through the great bureaucratic machine. Then, when the flood of
petitions has been reduced to a trickle, issue an NPRM with long
comment time (like 98-143). Resolution of the issue could take years -
and every new petition just resets the clock.

IOW, don't hold yer breath. Lookit how long it took for the "incentive
licensing" proposals of the '60s to take place. First proposals in
1963, final plan in 1966, major changes in 1968 and 1969. And they had
far fewer proposals back then.

This is a phenominon that I am all too familiar with
when dealing with The Monkey House whether from within or from
without.

"Welcome To The Monkey House" ...

73 de Jim, N2EY

If you are right, then the US will be the last country with a code test,
decades after it no longer exists anywhere else. I don't think it will take
that long, though.

Firstly, I think the reason they didn't go for a memorandum report and
order is more mundane. They don't care about any catfight because they
don't care about amateur radio, period.

Secondly, I don't think they will wait for any more petitions.

Thirdly, I think that when the dust settles they will just do what they
were going to do anyway. Eliminate Element 1.

Let's hope it ends that way, Alun!

- Mike KB3EIA -

May 9th 04, 02:45 PM

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/9/2004 8:12 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I applied to be a counselor for the radio merit badge in boy scouts a
couple of months ago, but haven't heard anything back yet. The troop leader
is more interested in finding someone for the computer badge.

From what I read in the papaers, it's getting harder and harder for the
Scouts to find leaders who want to be leaders and not molesters....

PS: The requirement for a CW QSO has been dropped from the badge, which
makes it more practical for me to do it!

Examiners have always had it at thier discretion to send random letters
and check for character count. In the long run, I bet more folks have passed
the test because it WAS a "QSO" since they could go back and fill in missing
letters....ITS N T T AT ARD TO FI L IN THE BL NKS ON E YOU BACK U
AN LOOK AT W T YOU WR TE DO N.

73

Steve, K4YZ

May 9th 04, 03:06 PM

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/9/2004 8:12 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I applied to be a counselor for the radio merit badge in boy scouts a
couple of months ago, but haven't heard anything back yet. The troop
leader is more interested in finding someone for the computer badge.

From what I read in the papaers, it's getting harder and harder
for the
Scouts to find leaders who want to be leaders and not molesters....

PS: The requirement for a CW QSO has been dropped from the badge, which
makes it more practical for me to do it!

Examiners have always had it at thier discretion to send random
letters
and check for character count. In the long run, I bet more folks have
passed the test because it WAS a "QSO" since they could go back and
fill in missing letters....ITS N T T AT ARD TO FI L IN THE BL
NKS ON E YOU BACK U AN LOOK AT W T YOU WR TE DO N.

73

Steve, K4YZ

I think maybe you are a bit confused, so I guess I need to explain a little
more. The radio merit badge used to require the boys to participate in 2 CW
QSOs and 1 phone QSO. Now that requirement is just for 1 QSO in any mode.
Some phone ops used to teach the badge and do CW QSOs by computer, which
had the added advantage that the boys could see what was being said, whilst
others used to get a CW op to participate (the counselor tests the boys,
but anyone can provide the instruction/demos).

The QSO requirement is only one from a long list, and can be satisfied by
boys with a ham licence if they submit 5 QSL cards from 3 call districts.
The boys who are not hams (obviously the vast majority) just have to sit in
on a QSO instead.

One of the other requirements is to draw a frequency chart, and there are
very specific rules about what it has to show. The funny thing is, the
example in the book doesn't comply. It was done by the ARRL, but I don't
think it was created specially for the purpose. I think it was just
something that already existed that they let the boy scouts use. One of the
questions I am contemplating is whether I should give credit for copying
it, or whether they should have to do it properly?

73 de Alun, N3KIP

May 9th 04, 03:12 PM

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/9/2004 9:06 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I think maybe you are a bit confused, so I guess I need to explain a little
more. The radio merit badge used to require the boys to participate in 2 CW
QSOs and 1 phone QSO. Now that requirement is just for 1 QSO in any mode.
Some phone ops used to teach the badge and do CW QSOs by computer, which
had the added advantage that the boys could see what was being said, whilst
others used to get a CW op to participate (the counselor tests the boys,
but anyone can provide the instruction/demos).

Ahhhhhhh....I see...You were speaking of the REAL "Merit Badges"....!

Yes, you were correct, of course...I stand corrected.

The QSO requirement is only one from a long list, and can be satisfied by
boys with a ham licence if they submit 5 QSL cards from 3 call districts.
The boys who are not hams (obviously the vast majority) just have to sit in
on a QSO instead.

One of the other requirements is to draw a frequency chart, and there are
very specific rules about what it has to show. The funny thing is, the
example in the book doesn't comply. It was done by the ARRL, but I don't
think it was created specially for the purpose. I think it was just
something that already existed that they let the boy scouts use. One of the
questions I am contemplating is whether I should give credit for copying
it, or whether they should have to do it properly?

The FCC has a real nice chart available from GPO and is all inclusive from
a few KHz up to, I beleive, 300GHz. It might go higher.

73

Steve, K4YZ

May 9th 04, 03:15 PM

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/9/2004 9:06 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I think maybe you are a bit confused, so I guess I need to explain a
little more. The radio merit badge used to require the boys to
participate in 2 CW QSOs and 1 phone QSO. Now that requirement is just
for 1 QSO in any mode. Some phone ops used to teach the badge and do CW
QSOs by computer, which had the added advantage that the boys could see
what was being said, whilst others used to get a CW op to participate
(the counselor tests the boys, but anyone can provide the
instruction/demos).

Ahhhhhhh....I see...You were speaking of the REAL "Merit
Badges"....!

Yes, you were correct, of course...I stand corrected.

The QSO requirement is only one from a long list, and can be satisfied
by boys with a ham licence if they submit 5 QSL cards from 3 call
districts. The boys who are not hams (obviously the vast majority) just
have to sit in on a QSO instead.

One of the other requirements is to draw a frequency chart, and there
are very specific rules about what it has to show. The funny thing is,
the example in the book doesn't comply. It was done by the ARRL, but I
don't think it was created specially for the purpose. I think it was
just something that already existed that they let the boy scouts use.
One of the questions I am contemplating is whether I should give credit
for copying it, or whether they should have to do it properly?

The FCC has a real nice chart available from GPO and is all
inclusive from
a few KHz up to, I beleive, 300GHz. It might go higher.

73

Steve, K4YZ

That's a good point. I understand that Icom has one you can download,
although I don't know if it meets the requirements. I'm sure the FCC chart
meets all possible requirements, though.

May 9th 04, 05:29 PM

"Alun" wrote in message
...
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/9/2004 8:12 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I applied to be a counselor for the radio merit badge in boy scouts a
couple of months ago, but haven't heard anything back yet. The troop
leader is more interested in finding someone for the computer badge.

From what I read in the papaers, it's getting harder and harder
for the
Scouts to find leaders who want to be leaders and not molesters....

PS: The requirement for a CW QSO has been dropped from the badge, which
makes it more practical for me to do it!

Examiners have always had it at thier discretion to send random
letters
and check for character count. In the long run, I bet more folks have
passed the test because it WAS a "QSO" since they could go back and
fill in missing letters....ITS N T T AT ARD TO FI L IN THE BL
NKS ON E YOU BACK U AN LOOK AT W T YOU WR TE DO N.

73

Steve, K4YZ

I think maybe you are a bit confused, so I guess I need to explain a
little
more. The radio merit badge used to require the boys to participate in 2
CW
QSOs and 1 phone QSO. Now that requirement is just for 1 QSO in any mode.
Some phone ops used to teach the badge and do CW QSOs by computer, which
had the added advantage that the boys could see what was being said,
whilst
others used to get a CW op to participate (the counselor tests the boys,
but anyone can provide the instruction/demos).

The QSO requirement is only one from a long list, and can be satisfied by
boys with a ham licence if they submit 5 QSL cards from 3 call districts.
The boys who are not hams (obviously the vast majority) just have to sit
in
on a QSO instead.

One of the other requirements is to draw a frequency chart, and there are
very specific rules about what it has to show. The funny thing is, the
example in the book doesn't comply. It was done by the ARRL, but I don't
think it was created specially for the purpose. I think it was just
something that already existed that they let the boy scouts use. One of
the
questions I am contemplating is whether I should give credit for copying
it, or whether they should have to do it properly?

73 de Alun, N3KIP

I'd say make them do the chart by the rules of the merit badge. There's
very little to be learned just by copying a pre-existing chart. Of course
they should be allowed to use the ARRL one (and others) as an information
resource.

In the real world of work, one frequently has to reformat information to
meet customer formatting requirements.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

May 9th 04, 06:16 PM

Alun wrote in message . ..
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

The FCC has a real nice chart available from GPO and is all
inclusive from
a few KHz up to, I beleive, 300GHz. It might go higher.

73

Steve, K4YZ

That's a good point. I understand that Icom has one you can download,
although I don't know if it meets the requirements. I'm sure the FCC chart
meets all possible requirements, though.

I wonder if it shows the MARS frequencies separate from the Amateur frequencies?

After all, " "MARS IS "Amateur Radio". "

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