In article ,
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

Subject: FCC Announces use-based fee system for ARS
From: "L."
Date: 8/12/2004 10:28 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
L. wrote:

That doesn't even make sense - if that is true. Charge MORE for
Emergency
Services? That is one of the key reasons FOR Amateur Radio........
Something stinks there.........

You've just stumbled onto a little range war, L. That tinyurl link is
the page of another Ham that suggested increased fees for licensing, and
Hans is just being Hans.


I kinda wondered about that! The whole thing made no sense.

There's a good reason for it NOT making any sense.

It was generated by K0HB.

Hans spent some time making a little fictional "news release" since he's
unable to directly address the matter objectively. Since I've managed to
derail his rant, he's taking a different approach.

73

Steve, K4YZ


I beg to differ, gents. I got three lines into Hans' message before I
backed up, started again, and then had an uncontrollable giggling fit.
That piece of wit, humor, and good fun is in no wise a 'rant'; and in
fact, it makes a helluva lot more sense in its logic and structure than
virtually anything the FCC sez these days.

Considering what is happening lately to once-upon-a-time "public"
facilities in this country (entry fees, user fees, lurking fees, etc.) I
fully expect the Feds to propose exactly what Hans jests, but they would
impose a more cumbersome and less logical fee assessment.

Yet, maybe even the FCC would grant ARRL Field Day a "free ride" ... it
serves no purpose as an emergency exercise, no information of any value
whatsoever is exchanged, and sufficient equipment is knocked out of
service to ensure less QRM in the weeks and months following.

Gray K7VGW

--
Reply to: allen/at/graybyrd/dot/com

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:53:44 -0600, Graybyrd wrote:

Yet, maybe even the FCC would grant ARRL Field Day a "free ride" ... it
serves no purpose as an emergency exercise, no information of any value
whatsoever is exchanged, and sufficient equipment is knocked out of
service to ensure less QRM in the weeks and months following.

On this last point in your post, it is now I who beg to differ. Field
Day serves no useful purpose as an emergency exercise? Personal
experience here would seem to indicate otherwise.

No information of any value is exchanged? Maybe not between two
distant stations on the air, but every year at Field Day the newer
members of our club get the chance to come out and see how lots of
things are done that they haven't seen done before. They see the
equipment chosen by more experienced hams who are involved in the
emergency communications aspect of amateur radio. They see how those
hams pack up that equipment for safe transport. They see how it is set
up and used, how it is powered, how antennas are erected and
connected. That's all valuable information. of course, this assumes
that the club in question makes an effort to get those new guys to
come out and participate. ours does. Your mileage may vary.

Finally, if your equipment gets knocked out at Field Day, that in
itself is some valuable information gained, namely that someone needs
to reconsider their choice of equipment for emergency use. If that
equipment gets knocked out during an exercise, how well do you think
it is going to stand up during a *real* emergency?

John Kasupskim Tonawanda, New York
Amateur Radio (KC2HMZ), SWL/Scanner Monitoring (KNY2VS)
Member of ARES/RACES, ARATS, WUN, ARRL
http://www.qsl.net/kc2fng
E-Mails Ignored, Please Post Replies In This Newsgroup

In article ,
John Kasupski wrote:

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:53:44 -0600, Graybyrd wrote:

Yet, maybe even the FCC would grant ARRL Field Day a "free ride" ... it
serves no purpose as an emergency exercise, no information of any value
whatsoever is exchanged, and sufficient equipment is knocked out of
service to ensure less QRM in the weeks and months following.

On this last point in your post, it is now I who beg to differ. Field
Day serves no useful purpose as an emergency exercise? Personal
experience here would seem to indicate otherwise.

[snip]

If this were 1950, I would agree that ARRL Field Day is a relevant and
valuable exercise. Today, I disagree. Sad truth is, the element least
welcome at the Federal/State civil emergency authorities table is the
amateur radio community. The federal/state power structure and
self-perpetuating control structure are increasingly hostile to
"amateur" intrusion as any truly significant part of the professional
organization mission.

Things have changed greatly in the last 40-50 years, and most
catastrophically during the government's rush to "absolute security"
following 09/11/01. The "involved citizen" is honored in lip service
only nowadays. Perhaps this is why the old guard at the ARRL is
frantically trying to find a new look for the old ARES .. hoping against
hope to cloak it in digital, commercial, internet garb (WinLink 2000) to
make it appear more attractive to the federally-dominated emergency
structures.

Field Day used to be fun, any maybe it still is .. but it sure is
pointless for anything serious .. unless you're thinking we'll be
tapping out CW on scavenged, converted transistor radios from our caves
during the post-nuclear accident epoch.

Gray K7VGW

--
Reply to: allen/at/graybyrd/dot/com

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:52:28 -0600, Graybyrd wrote:

If this were 1950, I would agree that ARRL Field Day is a relevant and
valuable exercise. Today, I disagree. Sad truth is, the element least
welcome at the Federal/State civil emergency authorities table is the
amateur radio community.

Maybe where you are. Here it is a key part of both inter-agency
and inter-hospital backup communications.

--
Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:52:28 -0600, Graybyrd wrote:

If this were 1950, I would agree that ARRL Field Day is a relevant and
valuable exercise. Today, I disagree. Sad truth is, the element least
welcome at the Federal/State civil emergency authorities table is the
amateur radio community. The federal/state power structure and
self-perpetuating control structure are increasingly hostile to
"amateur" intrusion as any truly significant part of the professional
organization mission.

Then explain why New York state - just two months ago - paid for Erie
County ARES/RACES dualband antenna to be erected on the new
communications tower at the county EOC/Training Center, using federal
money obtained through DHS (a federal agency)?

Things have changed greatly in the last 40-50 years, and most
catastrophically during the government's rush to "absolute security"
following 09/11/01. The "involved citizen" is honored in lip service
only nowadays.

Then explain why NYSEMO has been paying (again with federal money) for
CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) training in an effort to
*get* more "involved citizens" ready to help in an emergency/disaster?

Perhaps this is why the old guard at the ARRL is
frantically trying to find a new look for the old ARES .. hoping against
hope to cloak it in digital, commercial, internet garb (WinLink 2000) to
make it appear more attractive to the federally-dominated emergency
structures.

This statement strikes me as downright laughable. The WinLink 2000
system is designed to benefit *local* communities and the agencies
that serve them. While ARRL has approved the inclusion of the Winlink
2000 Radio worldwide digital email network for ARES, they are
certainly not forcing it down anyone's throats, it's simply a tool
that is there to be used by those who might find it useful - like the
ARES groups in Florida; in Harris County, Texas; in Riverside County,
California, and in Wisconsin.

That doesn't count the use of WinLink 2000 by the Virginia Department
of Health, and International Heath Services (IHS) of Minnesota, which
are medical organizations, not ARES or RACES organizations.

Field Day used to be fun, any maybe it still is .. but it sure is
pointless for anything serious ..

It is still fun, and it is anything but pointless to hams who are
serious about the public service and emergency communications aspect
of amateur radio.

unless you're thinking we'll be
tapping out CW on scavenged, converted transistor radios from our caves
during the post-nuclear accident epoch.

If that's all you see at Field Day where you live, maybe that explains
your attitude towards the whole thing. At this years Field Day, we
operated not only CW but also phone, VHF/UHF, and PSK31, and we
demonstrated SSTV, ATV, and APRS. All of this was done without
commercial power, in a public place, and resulted in positive
publicity for the hobby as two newspaper articles were published in
response to our press releases and interviews conducted by a reporter
who visited the Field Day site.

Frankly, as an ARES/RACES member, CW is the *last* thing I'd
expecting to be using in an emergency.

VHF/UHF? Most definitely. SSTV? Possibly...our EOC is set up for it,
and we do have members with digital cameras and the capability to use
mobile or portable SSTV to take pictures at an emergency scene and
transmit them back to the EOC for the emergency management officials
to see. APRS? Also a high probability. You can run it with a PDA and a
handheld with a simple interface, giving you some basic digital
messaging capability along with the ability to glance at a map and see
who is closest to a location where you need to send someone, thus
keeping response times to a minimum.

Of course, learning and preparing for this requires team members who
have a positive attitude about what they are doing. If that is absent
where you live, you and your community has my deepest sympathy, but
fortunately for the rest of us, not every locality suffers from the
same negativity that you seem to...and I do not mean that as an insult
but rather as a constructive criticism - if this is how things are
where you live, well, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part
of the problem, gray. Think about it...

73 de John, KC2HMZ
Erie County (NY) ARES/RACES Member
ARATS EOC Team Co-Coordinator

In article , John Kasupski
writes:

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:52:28 -0600, Graybyrd wrote:

If this were 1950, I would agree that ARRL Field Day is a relevant and
valuable exercise. Today, I disagree. Sad truth is, the element least
welcome at the Federal/State civil emergency authorities table is the
amateur radio community. The federal/state power structure and
self-perpetuating control structure are increasingly hostile to
"amateur" intrusion as any truly significant part of the professional
organization mission.

Then explain why New York state - just two months ago - paid for Erie
County ARES/RACES dualband antenna to be erected on the new
communications tower at the county EOC/Training Center, using federal
money obtained through DHS (a federal agency)?

Ummmm.....because they know the value of amateur communications?

Things have changed greatly in the last 40-50 years, and most
catastrophically during the government's rush to "absolute security"
following 09/11/01. The "involved citizen" is honored in lip service
only nowadays.

Then explain why NYSEMO has been paying (again with federal money) for
CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) training in an effort to
*get* more "involved citizens" ready to help in an emergency/disaster?

One more tool in the toolbox. Not every communication needs absolute security.

Perhaps this is why the old guard at the ARRL is
frantically trying to find a new look for the old ARES .. hoping against
hope to cloak it in digital, commercial, internet garb (WinLink 2000) to
make it appear more attractive to the federally-dominated emergency
structures.

This statement strikes me as downright laughable. The WinLink 2000
system is designed to benefit *local* communities and the agencies
that serve them. While ARRL has approved the inclusion of the Winlink
2000 Radio worldwide digital email network for ARES, they are
certainly not forcing it down anyone's throats, it's simply a tool
that is there to be used by those who might find it useful - like the
ARES groups in Florida; in Harris County, Texas; in Riverside County,
California, and in Wisconsin.

That doesn't count the use of WinLink 2000 by the Virginia Department
of Health, and International Heath Services (IHS) of Minnesota, which
are medical organizations, not ARES or RACES organizations.

Cool!

Field Day used to be fun, any maybe it still is .. but it sure is
pointless for anything serious ..

It is still fun, and it is anything but pointless to hams who are
serious about the public service and emergency communications aspect
of amateur radio.

FD isn't a "serious" emergency preparedness drill. But it does have an
emergency component, and it serves as a recruiting and training tool.
And it *is* fun.

unless you're thinking we'll be
tapping out CW on scavenged, converted transistor radios from our caves
during the post-nuclear accident epoch.

If that's all you see at Field Day where you live, maybe that explains
your attitude towards the whole thing. At this years Field Day, we
operated not only CW but also phone, VHF/UHF, and PSK31, and we
demonstrated SSTV, ATV, and APRS. All of this was done without
commercial power, in a public place, and resulted in positive
publicity for the hobby as two newspaper articles were published in
response to our press releases and interviews conducted by a reporter
who visited the Field Day site.

The Tonawanda folks have been at it for decades, too. Having that
memorable call helps. I can remember FDs 30+ years ago when I
worked that group.

Frankly, as an ARES/RACES member, CW is the *last* thing I'd
expecting to be using in an emergency.

Perhaps you should consult with folks who have been there and done that:

On the use of CW for emergency traffic during Hurricane Floyd:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...9%40news2.mia&
output=gplain

On the use of CW during the ice storms of 1998 (right there in west/central New
York State):

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...ny2v_fred%40ju
no.com&output=gplain

One more tool in the toolbox.

VHF/UHF? Most definitely. SSTV? Possibly...our EOC is set up for it,
and we do have members with digital cameras and the capability to use
mobile or portable SSTV to take pictures at an emergency scene and
transmit them back to the EOC for the emergency management officials
to see. APRS? Also a high probability. You can run it with a PDA and a
handheld with a simple interface, giving you some basic digital
messaging capability along with the ability to glance at a map and see
who is closest to a location where you need to send someone, thus
keeping response times to a minimum.

Of course, learning and preparing for this requires team members who
have a positive attitude about what they are doing. If that is absent
where you live, you and your community has my deepest sympathy, but
fortunately for the rest of us, not every locality suffers from the
same negativity that you seem to...and I do not mean that as an insult
but rather as a constructive criticism - if this is how things are
where you live, well, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part
of the problem, gray. Think about it...

Well said!

73 de Jim, N2EY

In a real disaster, you need all the help you can get.


"John Kasupski" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:52:28 -0600, Graybyrd wrote:

If this were 1950, I would agree that ARRL Field Day is a relevant and
valuable exercise. Today, I disagree. Sad truth is, the element least
welcome at the Federal/State civil emergency authorities table is the
amateur radio community. The federal/state power structure and
self-perpetuating control structure are increasingly hostile to
"amateur" intrusion as any truly significant part of the professional
organization mission.

Then explain why New York state - just two months ago - paid for Erie
County ARES/RACES dualband antenna to be erected on the new
communications tower at the county EOC/Training Center, using federal
money obtained through DHS (a federal agency)?

Things have changed greatly in the last 40-50 years, and most
catastrophically during the government's rush to "absolute security"
following 09/11/01. The "involved citizen" is honored in lip service
only nowadays.

Then explain why NYSEMO has been paying (again with federal money) for
CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) training in an effort to
*get* more "involved citizens" ready to help in an emergency/disaster?

Perhaps this is why the old guard at the ARRL is
frantically trying to find a new look for the old ARES .. hoping against
hope to cloak it in digital, commercial, internet garb (WinLink 2000) to
make it appear more attractive to the federally-dominated emergency
structures.

This statement strikes me as downright laughable. The WinLink 2000
system is designed to benefit *local* communities and the agencies
that serve them. While ARRL has approved the inclusion of the Winlink
2000 Radio worldwide digital email network for ARES, they are
certainly not forcing it down anyone's throats, it's simply a tool
that is there to be used by those who might find it useful - like the
ARES groups in Florida; in Harris County, Texas; in Riverside County,
California, and in Wisconsin.

That doesn't count the use of WinLink 2000 by the Virginia Department
of Health, and International Heath Services (IHS) of Minnesota, which
are medical organizations, not ARES or RACES organizations.

Field Day used to be fun, any maybe it still is .. but it sure is
pointless for anything serious ..

It is still fun, and it is anything but pointless to hams who are
serious about the public service and emergency communications aspect
of amateur radio.

unless you're thinking we'll be
tapping out CW on scavenged, converted transistor radios from our caves
during the post-nuclear accident epoch.

If that's all you see at Field Day where you live, maybe that explains
your attitude towards the whole thing. At this years Field Day, we
operated not only CW but also phone, VHF/UHF, and PSK31, and we
demonstrated SSTV, ATV, and APRS. All of this was done without
commercial power, in a public place, and resulted in positive
publicity for the hobby as two newspaper articles were published in
response to our press releases and interviews conducted by a reporter
who visited the Field Day site.

Frankly, as an ARES/RACES member, CW is the *last* thing I'd
expecting to be using in an emergency.

VHF/UHF? Most definitely. SSTV? Possibly...our EOC is set up for it,
and we do have members with digital cameras and the capability to use
mobile or portable SSTV to take pictures at an emergency scene and
transmit them back to the EOC for the emergency management officials
to see. APRS? Also a high probability. You can run it with a PDA and a
handheld with a simple interface, giving you some basic digital
messaging capability along with the ability to glance at a map and see
who is closest to a location where you need to send someone, thus
keeping response times to a minimum.

Of course, learning and preparing for this requires team members who
have a positive attitude about what they are doing. If that is absent
where you live, you and your community has my deepest sympathy, but
fortunately for the rest of us, not every locality suffers from the
same negativity that you seem to...and I do not mean that as an insult
but rather as a constructive criticism - if this is how things are
where you live, well, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part
of the problem, gray. Think about it...

73 de John, KC2HMZ
Erie County (NY) ARES/RACES Member
ARATS EOC Team Co-Coordinator

Graybyrd wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

Subject: FCC Announces use-based fee system for ARS
From: "L."
Date: 8/12/2004 10:28 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
L. wrote:

That doesn't even make sense - if that is true. Charge MORE for
Emergency
Services? That is one of the key reasons FOR Amateur Radio........
Something stinks there.........

You've just stumbled onto a little range war, L. That tinyurl link is
the page of another Ham that suggested increased fees for licensing, and
Hans is just being Hans.


I kinda wondered about that! The whole thing made no sense.

There's a good reason for it NOT making any sense.

It was generated by K0HB.

Hans spent some time making a little fictional "news release" since he's
unable to directly address the matter objectively. Since I've managed to
derail his rant, he's taking a different approach.

73

Steve, K4YZ


I beg to differ, gents. I got three lines into Hans' message before I
backed up, started again, and then had an uncontrollable giggling fit.
That piece of wit, humor, and good fun is in no wise a 'rant'; and in
fact, it makes a helluva lot more sense in its logic and structure than
virtually anything the FCC sez these days.

Steve just yells alot. Always incensed about sumptin or even about
nuthin. Doesn't matter.