RadioBanter - 24 GHz woes?

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"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...

: ...and so is an Ohm's Law of Resistance formula with one
: unknown. Some need Java calculator programs on their
: PCs in order to solve such difficult "rocket science." Sheesh.

Is there an echo in here?
........Is there an echo in here?

LenOver,

Your crapola is hard enuf to read once, let alone 2-3 times. Take a course
in computer basics.

M.A.N.
--
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord,
make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
- Voltaire

In article et, "Mel A.
Nomah" writes:

Your crapola is hard enuf to read once, let alone 2-3 times. Take a course
in computer basics.

It's the fault of that wonderful ISP called AOL and their very latest
softwares...at THEIR end, not here. AOL has been advised. Again.

BTW, I've done commercial and amateur computer programming in
addition to electronic design engineering and was a member of the
ACM in the past, though always with the IEEE since '73.

You are welcome to file TOS charges against me with AOL any
time you wish. TOS = Terms Of Service. Tell them that the
cancer man doesn't like me. Let us see if cancer can spread.

Meanwhile on your "computer suggestion," go shove it up your
I/O port.

With fondest regards,

In article , "JAMES HAMPTON"
writes:

"Lenof21" wrote in message
...

NTSC color subcarrier is exactly 3.579545454545454545454545....
MHz. :-)

With the correct integer divisor and correct integer multiplier, it
comes out to 500 KHz fairly exact. Most TV stations of the old
days had color subcarrier generators that were beat against
WWV on HF. It was picked for that very reason. Smart pickers
even back then.

Irritated, I packed up the tools and went back down - and found everyone
drinking my beer!!!! Sigh ... ok, I went in to the television to turn it
off - and there was a signal indication of 85! I pulled out the credit card
and called Direct Tv. Bam! On came the whole 9 yards. Further testing the
following day revealed that I could not get a better signal. Lucky indeed.
BTW, by the next day, I had run coax both upstairs to the bedroom and also
into the kitchen, so I only needed one helper. He could watch the signal
strength in the kitchen and yell directly out the window to me. I chose my
helper a bit more judiciously ;)

Heh. You are probably too young to get involved in a post-war
event called the "beer can vertical." Back when cans were made
of solderable materials, some WW2-age guys had beer parties
to get the cans, solder them together to make a thick vertical
radiator. By the end of one such "vertical," the soldering started
to get rather out of line.

I was a young teener at that time and never did like beer. Still
don't. Don't mix beer and ham construction projects, especially
with a group that doesn't know what they are doing. Never heard
of a "beer can vertical" that stayed up. :-)

What does that have to do with 10 GHz transmission? Even purchasing
equipment, someone is going to have to be able to aim the darn thing (gain
comes at the expense of beamwidth, naturally) - and have some idea of local
topography if they wish to take advantage of either natural or man-made
objects. Of course, if the object is moonbounce, taking a dish which will
develop the proper gain (and I'm guessing here - likely approaching 30 dBi),
that thing is going to have to be fairly accurately pointed.

At S-Band (2 to 4 GHz), engineer-author-ham George O. Smith
calculated that a KiloWatt into a 30 db gain dish at S-Band could
honk into Mars with the receiver using another 30 db gain dish
and running wide-spread (850 Hz) FSK RTTY. Over all distances
in planetary orbits and within seeing distance (planetary occlusion
would be obviously prohibitive). Smith was at Harry Diamond Labs
during WW2 designing/debugging proximity fuses as well as the
long-running series of "Venus Equilateral" stories involving a radio
relay asteroid between Earth and Venus and Mars. In the 1940s,
of course...we've learned that the other planets aren't hospitable.

My Morse key has two settings: up and down. I can handle that, but some
folks might not be able to handle something a bit more complex than that
(although many can).

I've met some hams who can't work a single-unknown variable
algebra problem yet proclaim themselves to be "designers."
They might need a four-week course class to learn to set a
VCR or DVD recorder. :-)

Interplanetary QSOs might prove *very* interesting. You certainly can't
call CQ. You'd have to set up pre-arranged transmit times. Both could
transmit information at a given time and the both wait .... and wait ... and
wait whilst the electromagnetic radiation made its' way at the speed of
light for a number of minutes (or hours, depending upon how close the
planet - likely mars - was at the time). Obviously, mars is quite close to
us only at certain times and even then is what - 35 million miles away?
Don't forget to adjust for Doppler shift as the planets are moving closer or
farther away. Narrow bandwidths can give you better signal to noise ratio,
but narrow bandwidths can also make that Doppler shift a lot more difficult
to deal with. I doubt wideband FM would cut the mustard due to a *huge*
increase in noise with the much larger bandwidth over narrow bandwidth
modes.

The Deep Space Network out of JPL done solved a lot of those
problems long ago. Using lower powers than seemed practical
with bandwidths that seemed impractical in the 50s.

All the numbers are available: Path loss, antenna gain, bandwidth,
just plug them into an equation or nomograph (or search for a
"program" also called a Java aplet somebody tossed together).

The major problem is TIME DELAY and trying to adjust traditional
methods to meet future needs. There's a discernable audio pause
when talking to someone via a comm sat sitting in geosynchronous
orbit and it isn't even at a tenth the distance to the moon. It's 2 1/2
seconds (give or take) doing a Lunar "QSO." Obviously the old
tradition has to be tossed for interplanetary stuff and so the avowed
ham morsemen will have their keys pried out of cold, dead
terrestrial fingers.

Besides, just who is going to deliver the QSLs saying "UR SIG
599!" ? :-)

I don't think I'm likely to be around by the time ordinary folks can take a
trip to mars .... ;)

I'm optimistic. :-) Having worked IN the field of electronics and
communications for a mere half century, the changes to all kinds
of comms have been so vast as to be overpowering the imagination
of even science-fiction writers (George O. Smith didn't think servos
could keep tracking the planets, used humans to do it in his 1940s
stories).

Back in 1954, 1.8 GHz communications equipment was considered
very high-tech. Special vacuum tubes, coaxial resonators, wave-
guide based bandpass filters. Big, expensive, fussy to tune. 50
years later we have consumer electronics cordless phones operating
at 2 GHz and the 5.8 GHz units' cost hovering close to $75 over-the-
counter, plug-and-play. One in three Americans has a cellular
telephone subscription now and those operate around 1 GHz and
some cell phones have digital cameras built in.

Look for VOIP to make inroads on the traditional wired telephone
service making hash out of the old, reliable, trustworthy "long-distance"
calls for ordinary citizens. All them old 'phone gabbers will have a ball
denouncing that damn upstart Voice Over Internet Protocal and
hollering "you can't send telephone calls over the Internet!" :-)

Dang, where'd I put my Morse key?
:))

Yup. Don't be late for the ham party where everyone recreates the
grand old "pioneer" days of the 1920s and 1930s with the morse-
Vail "code." Not for me. I love the future just around the corner
just like I've enjoyed all the new developments over the last half
century.

Remember what Brian Burke said: "Morse code gets through
when everything else does..."

In article .com, "bb"
writes:

wrote:
http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/ba/eme/

http://www.eham.net/articles/9988
Many of those involved in the project were hams.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Ahh, yes. Hams doing non-ham stuff.
I wonder if they calculated the distance to the moon correctly?

Well, Brian, Jimmie done took the post bus out of Monmouth
often enough, could see the big bedspring radar antennas at
The Labs (there were 3 laboratory installations along the
highway). I'm sure he has contributed his Oral History
recording for the archives as have all the veterans of Project
Diana. [hand salute!]

Maybe he forgot to mention the First Ham in Space! According
to tonight's Jeopardy program clues, Ham the Chimp was the
first "American" in space. :-)

Oook, oook!

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article .com, "bb"
writes:

wrote:
http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/ba/eme/

http://www.eham.net/articles/9988
Many of those involved in the project were hams.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Ahh, yes. Hams doing non-ham stuff.
I wonder if they calculated the distance to the moon correctly?

Well, Brian, Jimmie done took the post bus out of Monmouth
often enough, could see the big bedspring radar antennas at
The Labs (there were 3 laboratory installations along the
highway). I'm sure he has contributed his Oral History
recording for the archives as have all the veterans of Project
Diana. [hand salute!]

Maybe he forgot to mention the First Ham in Space! According
to tonight's Jeopardy program clues, Ham the Chimp was the
first "American" in space. :-)

That reminds me--I wonder how Mike Coslo's gas bag launch project is
going. How high will "Leonard" go?

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

...
NTSC color subcarrier is exactly 3.579545454545454545454545....
MHz. :-)

With the correct integer divisor and correct integer multiplier, it
comes out to 500 KHz fairly exact.

"Fairly exact"? What's that mean?

Any repeating decimal can be written as a rational number, a/b.
That particular decimal above is exactly 315/88: Set that decimal
equal to N. Since two digits repeat, multiply both sides of the
equation by 10^2; we now have: 100N = 357.9545454... Next, subtract
the first equation from this second one; all the repeating 54 pairs
cancel due to this subtraction, giving us 99N = 354.375, a
terminating decimal. To eliminate the decimal point, multiply
both sides by 1000: 99000N = 354375. Now divide both sides by
99000: N = 354375/99000. This fraction simplifies to N = 315/88.
Hence, that original repeating decimal, 3.579545454... is exactly
equal to 315/88.

Note that if you have a repeating decimal with 3 repeating digits,
you'd multiple both sides of the initial equation by 10^3, etc.

Jeff KH6O
--
Chief Petty Officer, U.S. Coast Guard
Mathematics Lecturer, University of Hawaii System

Dave Heil wrote:
Len Over 21 wrote:

In article .com, "bb"
writes:

wrote:

http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/ba/eme/

http://www.eham.net/articles/9988
Many of those involved in the project were hams.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Ahh, yes. Hams doing non-ham stuff.
I wonder if they calculated the distance to the moon correctly?

Well, Brian, Jimmie done took the post bus out of Monmouth
often enough, could see the big bedspring radar antennas at
The Labs (there were 3 laboratory installations along the
highway). I'm sure he has contributed his Oral History
recording for the archives as have all the veterans of Project
Diana. [hand salute!]

Maybe he forgot to mention the First Ham in Space! According
to tonight's Jeopardy program clues, Ham the Chimp was the
first "American" in space. :-)

That reminds me--I wonder how Mike Coslo's gas bag launch project is
going. How high will "Leonard" go?

Dave K8MN

It is going okay. I just stopped writing about it here since it was
"impossible to do" 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:
Len Over 21 wrote:

In article .com, "bb"
writes:

wrote:

http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/ba/eme/

http://www.eham.net/articles/9988
Many of those involved in the project were hams.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Ahh, yes. Hams doing non-ham stuff.
I wonder if they calculated the distance to the moon correctly?

Well, Brian, Jimmie done took the post bus out of Monmouth
often enough, could see the big bedspring radar antennas at
The Labs (there were 3 laboratory installations along the
highway). I'm sure he has contributed his Oral History
recording for the archives as have all the veterans of Project
Diana. [hand salute!]

Maybe he forgot to mention the First Ham in Space! According
to tonight's Jeopardy program clues, Ham the Chimp was the
first "American" in space. :-)

That reminds me--I wonder how Mike Coslo's gas bag launch project is
going. How high will "Leonard" go?

Dave K8MN

It is going okay. I just stopped writing about it here since it was
"impossible to do" 8^)

Don't let 'em grind you down, Mike.

If you don't stencil "LEONARD" on the first one, justice will not have
been done. A web site with corroborating photos will be a must.

Dave K8MN