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Operation with Expired License
N2EY asked what the rule authorization was for operation of an
amateur statsion on an expired license if renewal was made in a timely manner. Section 1.62(a) of the FCC Rules (not a Part 97 Rule) says: §1.62 Operation pending action on renewal application. (a)(1) Where there is pending before the Commission at the time of expiration of license any proper and timely application for renewal of license with respect to any activity of a continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of Section 9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act, such license shall continue in effect without further action by the Commission until such time as the Commission shall make a final determination with respect to the renewal application. No operation by any licensee under this section shall be construed as a finding by the Commission that the operation will serve the public interest, convenience, or necessity, nor shall such operation in any way affect or limit the action of the Commission with respect to any pending application or proceeding. Lots of words for a simple concept. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane |
Phil Kane wrote:
N2EY asked what the rule authorization was for operation of an amateur statsion on an expired license if renewal was made in a timely manner. Section 1.62(a) of the FCC Rules (not a Part 97 Rule) says: §1.62 Operation pending action on renewal application. (a)(1) Where there is pending before the Commission at the time of expiration of license any proper and timely application for renewal of license with respect to any activity of a continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of Section 9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act, such license shall continue in effect without further action by the Commission until such time as the Commission shall make a final determination with respect to the renewal application. No operation by any licensee under this section shall be construed as a finding by the Commission that the operation will serve the public interest, convenience, or necessity, nor shall such operation in any way affect or limit the action of the Commission with respect to any pending application or proceeding. Lots of words for a simple concept. My translation to English: If you send in the renewal before your license's expiration date, you can continue to use the privs of the license until the FCC says that they ain't gonna renew it. I suppose the postmark (back in the old days of paper snail mail) would determine that you sent it before the license was to expire. One probably should do a return receipt to show to the FCC field guy that you did mail it and that they got it. But that just says that you mailed *something*, not that you sent the right form filled out right. If you're late sending it in, you have to stay off the air until you get the new license in teh mail (or at least when you show in the FCC database as having been renewed). Yes? |
robert casey wrote: Phil Kane wrote: N2EY asked what the rule authorization was for operation of an amateur statsion on an expired license if renewal was made in a timely manner. Section 1.62(a) of the FCC Rules (not a Part 97 Rule) says: =A71.62 Operation pending action on renewal application. (a)(1) Where there is pending before the Commission at the time of expiration of license any proper and timely application for renewal of license with respect to any activity of a continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of Section 9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act, such license shall continue in effect without further action by the Commission until such time as the Commission shall make a final determination with respect to the renewal application. No operation by any licensee under this section shall be construed as a finding by the Commission that the operation will serve the public interest, convenience, or necessity, nor shall such operation in any way affect or limit the action of the Commission with respect to any pending application or proceeding. Lots of words for a simple concept. Thanks, Phil! Seems to me that key words a "proper and timely application for renewal of license" "activity of a continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of Section 9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act," Lots of room for interpretation there? For example, if I mail in a renewal the day before expiration, is that "timely"? My translation to English: If you send in the renewal before your license's expiration date, you can continue to use the privs of the license until the FCC says that they ain't gonna renew it. I suppose the postmark (back in the old days of paper snail mail) would determine that you sent it before the license was to expire. See above about "timely". One probably should do a return receipt to show to the FCC field guy that you did mail it and that they got it. But that just says that you mailed *something*, not that you sent the right form filled out right. Exactly! And how does anyone know it's "proper" until the Commission rules? I bet the occasional old Form 610 still shows up at FCC Hq. for a renewal. If you're late sending it in, you have to stay off the air until you get the new license in teh mail (or at least when you show in the FCC database as having been renewed). Yes? That's how I see it. But with online renewal and the database, you don't need to wait for the mail. But what is the interpretation of "activity of a continuing nature"? Obviously a broadcaster or safety service transmitter that is on-air 24/7 would be covered. But most amateur operation is of an intermittent, unscheduled, unprogrammed nature - would it be considered "activity of a continuing nature" if the ham is on the air on an irregular schedule? -- So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal application was previously filed), a ham with an expired license may be able to operate legally in the grace period. But definitely not in all cases. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
wrote in message
ups.com... : So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal : application was previously filed), a ham with an expired : license may be able to operate legally in the grace : period. After all the indignant and self-righteous heat you've applied to LenOver on this issue, it appears you were equally ignorant of the content of Part 97. 97.21(a)(3)(ii) puts it this way: "When the application has been received by the FCC on or before the license expiration date, the license operating authority is continued until the final disposition of the application." Been there in the rules for decades, and is commonly known among most people who are even slightly conversant with Part 97. Didn't you catch on to this when KV4FZ stayed on the air for years after expiration while his renewal was being litigated? Of course, Herb being an accomplished Morse operator, you'd probably cut him more slack than you cut for LenOver (not that either deserves any). M.A.N. -- "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." - Voltaire |
wrote in message
ups.com... : Lots of room for interpretation there? Interpret this: §97.21(a)(3)(ii) "When the application has been received by the FCC on or before the license expiration date, the license operating authority is continued until the final disposition of the application." M.A.N. -- "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." - Voltaire |
Mel A. Nomah wrote: wrote in message ups.com... : So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal : application was previously filed), a ham with an expired : license may be able to operate legally in the grace : period. After all the indignant and self-righteous heat you've applied to LenOver on this issue, it appears you were equally ignorant of the content of Part 97. What "indignant and self-righteous heat"? Len claimed that *all* amateurs with expired licenses could *legally* continue to operate in the grace period. Nothing about renewals being filed, etc. I simply pointed out that he was mistaken on that point - but he won't admit it. If a ham with an expired license followed Len's claim and operated with an expired-but-in-the-grace-period license without a pending pre-expiration renewal application, s/he'd be violating Part 97. By comparison, after it was pointed out to me that the rules allow continued operation if a renewal is filed, I amended my original statements. If a ham with an expired license followed my claim and did not operate with an expired-but-in-the-grace-period license, there would be no violation of Part 97. If the ham had applied for renewal before expiration, s/he would miss out on operating when in fact it would be legal, but that's erring on the side of safety. 97.21(a)(3)(ii) puts it this way: "When the application has been received by the FCC on or before the license expiration date, the license operating authority is continued until the final disposition of the application." Yes, it does. And that's why I amended my statement. It could be argued that what 97.21(a) (3) (ii) says is that if you renew before the expiration date, the license never really expires in the first place. Been there in the rules for decades, and is commonly known among most people who are even slightly conversant with Part 97. So is the fact that hams *cannot* legally operate in the grace period with an expired license if no renewal application has been filed. But Len claims *all* hams can legally operate in the grace period. That's simply not so. Yet he won't admit it. Len gets very upset when someone like me points out his errors. Didn't you catch on to this when KV4FZ stayed on the air for years after expiration while his renewal was being litigated? Sure. But he applied for renewal long before the expiration date. Of course, Herb being an accomplished Morse operator, you'd probably cut him more slack than you cut for LenOver (not that either deserves any). Not at all - just the opposite. Herb, being a licensed amateur operator, should get *less* slack, because he should have known better. Len's ignorance isn't the problem; it's his resistance to accepting his mistakes and his attacks on those who point them out. Thanks for clearing up that point about renewals. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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Mel A. Nomah wrote:
wrote in message ups.com... : So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal : application was previously filed), a ham with an expired : license may be able to operate legally in the grace : period. After all the indignant and self-righteous heat you've applied to LenOver on this issue, it appears you were equally ignorant of the content of Part 97. 97.21(a)(3)(ii) puts it this way: "When the application has been received by the FCC on or before the license expiration date, the license operating authority is continued until the final disposition of the application." Mel, we've been discussing this for a while after Leo brought it up some days ago. Until the F.C.C. can receive and grant renewals immediately from all Hams, there will have to be such a rule. Otherwise they would have to determine some time lag, say a week, and then tell you you have to calculate the number of days in ten years minus 1 week. Remember it will be different for many hams, because it depends on how many leap years there have been since you got your ticket, and whether you got your ticket before the leap day if you got the ticket during a leap year. A lot easier to just say "Send your renewal in by the ten year expiry date, and you're covered". Been there in the rules for decades, and is commonly known among most people who are even slightly conversant with Part 97. Didn't you catch on to this when KV4FZ stayed on the air for years after expiration while his renewal was being litigated? That is an aberration, as the system is designed more for lawful users than scofflaws. Of course, Herb being an accomplished Morse operator, you'd probably cut him more slack than you cut for LenOver (not that either deserves any). - Mike KB3EIA - |
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In article , Mike Coslo
writes: Until the F.C.C. can receive and grant renewals immediately from all Hams, there will have to be such a rule. Otherwise they would have to determine some time lag, say a week, and then tell you you have to calculate the number of days in ten years minus 1 week. Remember it will be different for many hams, because it depends on how many leap years there have been since you got your ticket, and whether you got your ticket before the leap day if you got the ticket during a leap year. Remember too that there's a 90 day limit in the other direction - if you send in a renewal too early (more than 90 days before expiration) they send it back. I'm not sure why that 90-day rule exists. For many years you could get a simultaneous renewal whenever you modified. I was a ham for a long time before I ever actually "renewed" because every upgrade and address change resulted in a renewed license too. Perhaps the vanity call system stopped the simultaneous renewals. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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