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Alun L. Palmer wrote:
wrote in ups.com: Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in egroups.com: This is because the US hams have to transmit in the BC band. That isn't correct. U.S. hams are transmitting on the 40m amateur band. Europeans and other DX are *listening* for the U.S. SSB ops on a BC band. If the US hams could transmit outside the broadcast frequencies this wouldn't continue. The DX works split so that their sigs aren't covered by BC QRM. That isn't necessarily correct. The sharp, rare ops are operating split on *any* band if the pileup is huge. That keeps the callers from covering his sigs. If the rules are changed so that you can call the DX on their frequency, they may still decide to work split. 7100-7200 will become worldwide exclusive amateur in a few years. Some countries outside Region 2 have already opened 7100-7200 to their hams, and SWBC continues to move out of there. Yet even if we eventually get 7000-7300 worldwide exclusive amateur, the DX will probably still work split. They will if there are still broadcasters in 7150-7200, which there may well be. It'll happen whether broadcasters are there or not. The hams who use Morse, that is. Have you noticed that almost all on-air-behavior-related FCC enforcement actions are for alleged violations using *voice* modes? I guess no-one caught that guy who used to send ..-. ..- -.-. - .- on repeaters around here Guess not! Do you think the number of hams doing similar things on voice is more or less than those doing such stuff with Morse Code? 73 de Jim, N2EY I don't think the lack of this behaviour on CW has much to do with pure motives, but nore to do with a lack of audience. So, hams using SSB act up because they think they'll be likely to have a non-ham audience? That doesn't compute. Dave K8MN |
Dave Heil wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote: If the US hams could transmit outside the broadcast frequencies this wouldn't continue. The DX works split so that their sigs aren't covered by BC QRM. That isn't necessarily correct. The sharp, rare ops are operating split on *any* band if the pileup is huge. That keeps the callers from covering his sigs. "Treachery, experience and a hundred watts beats a nitwit with two gallons every time." It'll happen whether broadcasters are there or not. Has been for decades. Now that SWBC biz is fading a bit and they're moving out of the band working split actually makes even more sense. It occurs to me that an argument could be presented about what us dxers do on 40 phone as a matter of standard operating practices is not the point the way Alun views the matter. Alun isn't interested in dxing which is OK, all he wants to do is go peacfully ragchewing with, say, one of his G-land chums. Who is calling CQ on 7.090 and there isn't a pileup in sight. Alun can't get the guy's attention because the guy isn't listening up the band for statesiders so Alun climbs into this venue and mumbles, whines, groans and bitches about not being able to chat with the G because po' Alun is stuck in bloody U.S. phone band and can't xcv with his chum. Does not flush. Go back a few years ago in the timeframe when I had the Big Wire fed by my silly little TS-50 HF mobile xcvr which I had up and running for the 40M RRAP CW Net exercise. The hoot to end all hoots. I digress as usual. I happened to hear an EI8 with a decent SSB sig yakking close to 7.100 with some station who was too weak for me to copy. I set his freq on VFO A then fished around the band above 7.150 for a reasonably clear freq with VFO B and found one around 7.235 as I recall. Paddled out a quick "QSX 7235 de W3RV? K" on his freq. "W3RV stand by" with a brouge ya could cut with a knife. Which I did and switched the TS-50 to LSB split and sat back while he finished with the weak Euro and called me. Turned out to be a very enjoyable one hour ragchew. As if there's anything new about any of it. How many times David . . . ? .. . . Dave K8MN w3rv |
Dave Heil wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote: If the US hams could transmit outside the broadcast frequencies this wouldn't continue. The DX works split so that their sigs aren't covered by BC QRM. That isn't necessarily correct. The sharp, rare ops are operating split on *any* band if the pileup is huge. That keeps the callers from covering his sigs. "Treachery, experience and a hundred watts beats a nitwit with two gallons every time." It'll happen whether broadcasters are there or not. Has been for decades. Now that SWBC biz is fading a bit and they're moving out of the band too working split actually makes even more sense. It occurs to me that an argument could be presented about what us dxers do on 40 phone as a matter of standard operating practices is not the point the way Alun views the matter. Alun isn't interested in dxing which is OK, all he wants to do is go peacfully ragchewing with, say, one of his G-land chums. Who is calling CQ on 7.090 and there isn't a pileup in sight. Alun can't get the guy's attention because the guy isn't listening up the band for statesiders so Alun climbs into this venue and mumbles, whines, groans and bitches about not being able to chat with the G because po' Alun is stuck in the bloody U.S. phone band and can't xcv with his chum. Does not flush. Go back a few years ago in the timeframe when I had the Big Wire fed by my silly little TS-50 HF mobile xcvr which I had up and running for the 40M RRAP CW Net exercise. The hoot to end all hoots. I digress as usual. I happened to hear an EI8 with a decent SSB sig yakking close to 7.100 with some station who was too weak for me to copy. I set his freq on VFO A then fished around the band above 7.150 for a reasonably clear freq with VFO B and found one around 7.235 as I recall. Paddled out a quick "QSX 7235 de W3RV? K" on his freq. "W3RV stand by" with a brouge ya could cut with a knife. Which I did and switched the TS-50 to LSB split and sat back while he finished with the weak Euro and called me. Turned out to be a very enjoyable one hour ragchew. As if there's anything new about any of it. How many times David . . . ? .. . . Dave K8MN w3rv |
Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in This is a link to the IARU HF bandplans:- http://www.iaru-region2.org/hf_e.htm This has all three regions on it, although published on the Region 2 web site, so probably most up to date for that region (the one the US happens to be in). If we had a voluntary system in the US, as per most other countries, this is the bandplan I would go by. OTOH, the ARRL bandplan necessarily incorporates the current restrictions on phone. They might change it, or might not, but then I am not a member... For those who haven't followed the link, the phone segments for R2 start at 1840, 3635, 7050, 14112, 18110.5, 21150.5, 24930.5 and 28225. In fact, phone is allowed somewhat lower down on a non-interference basis, but if you want that info you'll have to actually read the thing! Whatever, took a whole two minutes Alun. I would not like to operate in that regime. In the first place it's far too complicated, much more complicated than the ARRL plan, complexity being an auto-turnoff bound to get busted right and left in practice. Second it's sorely out of date with it's "allocation" for ax.25 ops. How much packet to we hear any longer on 40?? Further where do the modern digital modes like PSK-31 fit into this plan? They're not even mentioned. Ditto the looming opening of 7100-7200 in regions 1 and 3. Looks like the thing was laid out 20 years ago, it's an artifact. My big squawk with it though is that the top end of the CW-exclusive segemnt is 7.035. That's just plain nuts, only allows 10 Khz for U.S. non-Extras to operaste phone-free which simply will not work. Particularly given the ongoing surge of 40M QRP CW ops by all classes of HF-enabled licensees in all regions. In a word fuhgeddit. 73 de Alun, N3KIP w3rv |
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Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in news:1120481187.286229.201920 @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com: wrote: Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in This is a link to the IARU HF bandplans:- http://www.iaru-region2.org/hf_e.htm This has all three regions on it, although published on the Region 2 web site, so probably most up to date for that region (the one the US happens to be in). If we had a voluntary system in the US, as per most other countries, this is the bandplan I would go by. OTOH, the ARRL bandplan necessarily incorporates the current restrictions on phone. They might change it, or might not, but then I am not a member... For those who haven't followed the link, the phone segments for R2 start at 1840, 3635, 7050, 14112, 18110.5, 21150.5, 24930.5 and 28225. In fact, phone is allowed somewhat lower down on a non-interference basis, but if you want that info you'll have to actually read the thing! Whatever, took a whole two minutes Alun. I would not like to operate in that regime. Nor I! In the first place it's far too complicated, much more complicated than the ARRL plan, complexity being an auto- turnoff bound to get busted right and left in practice. Second it's sorely out of date with it's "allocation" for ax.25 ops. How much packet to we hear any longer on 40?? Further where do the modern digital modes like PSK-31 fit into this plan? They're not even mentioned. I suppose they're all "digimode". Ditto the looming opening of 7100-7200 in regions 1 and 3. Looks like the thing was laid out 20 years ago, it's an artifact. Bingo! So much for "dynamic reallocation of resources".. My big squawk with it though is that the top end of the CW- exclusive segemnt is 7.035. That's just plain nuts, only allows 10 Khz for U.S. non-Extras to operaste phone-free which simply will not work. And that's if everybody plays by the bandplan! Alun says the 'phone segment starts at 7050 under that plan. Which means that 'phone is primary on ~83% of the band! CW is primary on ~11%. The "digimodes" are stuck in between. The spectrum-efficient modes are sacrificed to the spectrum-wasters. "From each according to his [spectrum] ability, to each according to his [spectrum] need...." where have we heard that before? Particularly given the ongoing surge of 40M QRP CW ops by all classes of HF-enabled licensees in all regions. 7040... In a word fuhgeddit. The 800 pound problem is that nobody sez whose bandplan is to be followed. Does IARU outrank ARRL in the USA, or the other way around? What if NCVEC, NCI, RSGB, CQ or qrz.com comes up with a bandplan of their own? Like you said - fugedaboudit. 73 de Jim, N2EY break Nobody outranks anyone, except the FCC! Voluntary means voluntary, and if we had voluntary bandplanning then some would undoubtedly use the wrong mode in the wrong place, but they would have a right to do that. I am merely saying that if Hans' plan were adopted I personally would abide by the IARU bandplan. It has exclusive CW frequencies on every band, so what's the problem? (Ducks head to avoid flames!). Good luck on avoiding the flames, if you work out something that works please share |
Dave Heil wrote: Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in ups.com: Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in egroups.com: This is because the US hams have to transmit in the BC band. That isn't correct. U.S. hams are transmitting on the 40m amateur band. Europeans and other DX are *listening* for the U.S. SSB ops on a BC band. You are so clever. If the US hams could transmit outside the broadcast frequencies this wouldn't continue. The DX works split so that their sigs aren't covered by BC QRM. That isn't necessarily correct. The sharp, rare ops are operating split on *any* band if the pileup is huge. That keeps the callers from covering his sigs. You would think. If the rules are changed so that you can call the DX on their frequency, they may still decide to work split. 7100-7200 will become worldwide exclusive amateur in a few years. Some countries outside Region 2 have already opened 7100-7200 to their hams, and SWBC continues to move out of there. Yet even if we eventually get 7000-7300 worldwide exclusive amateur, the DX will probably still work split. They will if there are still broadcasters in 7150-7200, which there may well be. It'll happen whether broadcasters are there or not. DX101 The hams who use Morse, that is. Have you noticed that almost all on-air-behavior-related FCC enforcement actions are for alleged violations using *voice* modes? I guess no-one caught that guy who used to send ..-. ..- -.-. - .- on repeaters around here Guess not! Do you think the number of hams doing similar things on voice is more or less than those doing such stuff with Morse Code? 73 de Jim, N2EY I don't think the lack of this behaviour on CW has much to do with pure motives, but nore to do with a lack of audience. So, hams using SSB act up because they think they'll be likely to have a non-ham audience? That doesn't compute. Dave K8MN He didn't say, "non-ham audience," did he? Why did you? |
From: K0HB on Jul 3, 11:57 am
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote I don't think the lack of this behaviour on CW has much to do with pure motives, but nore to do with a lack of audience. It makes a nice statistic to hang your hat on, but the since such antics are most readily "detectable" on voice you could make the same claim for any mode other than voice. I'm not certain that Jim means to do so, but the cumulative weight of his postings on the subject sends this message: "CW operations are allowed on all frequencies without restriction because CW operators can be trusted to do the right thing. SSB/AM/RTTY/AX.25/PSK-xx/AMTOR?/PACTOR/SSTV operators can not be trusted, so their kind must not be allowed a similar freedom to cooperatively select operating frequencies." Morsemen are as pure as the driven snow.......................job bit bit |
wrote: wrote: Alun L. Palmer wrote: (IARU Bandplan) Ditto the looming opening of 7100-7200 in regions 1 and 3. Looks like the thing was laid out 20 years ago, it's an artifact. Bingo! So much for "dynamic reallocation of resources".. .. . hi-tech term for anarchy . . My big squawk with it though is that the top end of the CW- exclusive segemnt is 7.035. That's just plain nuts, only allows 10 Khz for U.S. non-Extras to operaste phone-free which simply will not work. And that's if everybody plays by the bandplan! Absolutely will not happen, guaranteed. Alun says the 'phone segment starts at 7050 under that plan. Which means that 'phone is primary on ~83% of the band! CW is primary on ~11%. The "digimodes" are stuck in between. CW + digital from 7.000 to 7.100, phone and image from 7.100 to 7.300 and call it a day. The spectrum-efficient modes are sacrificed to the spectrum-wasters. I don't support the notion that there should be "reward allocations" for spectrum efficiency because that can be twisted around and used as a rationale for reducing the space allocated to efficient modes. The better idea would be to keep the hard stops in place on their lower limits and let them clean up their QRM problems by cleaning up their modes & operations. The nonsense about narrow mode users giving up space to "accomodate" the results of junk modes like "hi-fi SSB" and overcompression and such really boils my oil. Let 'em sort it out their sandbox and stay away from our sandbox, they do it to themselves, let 'em deal with it. "From each according to his [spectrum] ability, to each according to his [spectrum] need...." where have we heard that before? From Darwin. Crush or get crushed and become extinct. In a word fuhgeddit. The 800 pound problem is that nobody sez whose bandplan is to be followed. Does IARU outrank ARRL in the USA, or the other way around? What if NCVEC, NCI, RSGB, CQ or qrz.com comes up with a bandplan of their own? On MF/HF it's all compulsive, ignorable micromanaging by amateurs, an approach which has failed miserably in any number of fields. The FCC is the law, they're the professionals, they're not ignorable and their "bandplans" work just fine. Like you said - fugedaboudit. Dit . . . 73 de Jim, N2EY w3rv |
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