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From: Dee Flint on Jul 28, 6:04 pm
wrote in message Dee Flint wrote: In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Interesting - in many ways! For one thing, there would still be two kinds of Technicians - those with HF and those without. Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point that licensees are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want more privileges, they show that development by upgrading. "...NPRM bore down heavily..."? Heh, you must have a different copy than I do. :-) Did your copy include the mailing address of the "amateur community?" :-) But more telling would be how many Techs would get Generals or Extras in order to get HF. I think that will indeed be very interesting. I was plotting the data from the ah0a site out of curiosity and it is easy to see on a graph the bubble in 2000 and it is easy to see the fact that it was small and temporary. The only class that is steadily increasing significantly in numbers is the Extra. Oh, ohhhh...the AH0A website is hardly an "objective" one considering that Joe Speroni is a resolute PRO-Code Test Advocate! "The only class that is steadily increasing significantly" is Extra?!? At present, the Amateur Extra class is 109,543 or 15.17% of the total of individual licensees (source: www.hamdata.com, FCC numbers for 0416 UTC on 28 July 2005). In two years' time, the Amateur Extra class licensees increased by 3,518. In that same time, Technician class licensees increased by 18,617. [Tech has been increasing about nine thousand per year since Restructuring] Are you, as an "engineering pro" trying to flim-flam that the ratio between Technician and Extra of 5.31:1 means the "Extra is increasing more rapidly?!?" The "club" call license numbers increased by 1,050 in two years or approximately 12.3%...which would make THAT category more likely as the "most rapidly growing." We'd finally see how much of a "barrier" the 5 wpm code test really is/was, by how many Techs upgrade and how many don't. My guess is that at least half the Technicians are inactive and will not upgrade. Of the remaining portion, there will probably be half that either don't hear about the change or don't hear that much about the change and so won't pursue it. There will also be a handful that aren't really interested in HF and so will not upgrade. Still if only 1/4 of the Techs upgrade in the next year, it will be quite a burden on the VEs for a while. As of 0416 UTC, 28 Jul 05, there are 349,936 Technician and Technician Plus licensees out of a total of 722,083 individual licensees (exclusive of 9.611 club calls). That is 48.46% of the total individual U.S. amateur radio licensees. If one-quarter of the present Technicians "upgrades" then that will be about 86,484. Yes, I'd imagine THAT would increase the work of the VEs...it is about 5.4 times the normal number of new amateur licensees granted each year. But, on the 10-year grant period of a license, about 34,900 (give or take) will enter the "grace period" for renewal. Considering that is the HIGHEST number of "inferior others" in U.S. ham radio, I'd say that ORDINARY RENEWAL would be a large "burden" on VEs. By the way, in the last year, 16,088 NEW licensees were added but 18,644 were expired. That's a delta of -2,556 in one year. That loss has also been consistent. Not to worry, you won't read this anyway (my postings are "too horrid" to respond to, you once said). :-) dit dot |
"Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "an_old_friend" wrote in message oups.com... Bill Sohl wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Kim wrote: large cut It would be the height of irony if, in fact, the FCC dropped Element 1 yet kept non-code-tested Techs off of HF until they got Generals or Extras. But isn't that exactly what is proposed. Once it becomes the new regulations (i.e. no code test anymore at all) there really is no way for a code-less Tech to then become a Tech with coode since there won't be anymore code tests being administered. OTOH this being the govt it could be the result I hope the FCC will make it clear in the report and order In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE That's probably correct. After all the FCC needs to clean out V/Uhf ASAP to make room for all that cell phone and wi-max to occupy. Dan/W4NTI |
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Interesting - in many ways! For one thing, there would still be two kinds of Technicians - those with HF and those without. Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point that licensees are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want more privileges, they show that development by upgrading. The problem is that such an implementation of the concept contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons! The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech-with-HF is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not. The latter has some HF privileges and the former has none. The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and proposes to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?! The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only, and require at least a General for HF. That may sound farfetched, but consider that the number of Novices is slowly dropping since that license class has been closed to new issues. If Element 1 disappears, the number of code-tested Techs will have to drop, too, as there won't be any more new ones. Eventually there won't be any of Novices or code-tested Techs left - which means no more entry-level licensees with HF privileges. Of course it will take years for all of them to disappear, but such a system doesn't cost FCC any admin resources. But more telling would be how many Techs would get Generals or Extras in order to get HF. I think that will indeed be very interesting. Yes! I was plotting the data from the ah0a site out of curiosity and it is easy to see on a graph the bubble in 2000 and it is easy to see the fact that it was small and temporary. The only class that is steadily increasing significantly in numbers is the Extra. Plain and simple fact. Can't escape it. We'd finally see how much of a "barrier" the 5 wpm code test really is/was, by how many Techs upgrade and how many don't. My guess is that at least half the Technicians are inactive and will not upgrade. Of the remaining portion, there will probably be half that either don't hear about the change or don't hear that much about the change and so won't pursue it. There will also be a handful that aren't really interested in HF and so will not upgrade. Still if only 1/4 of the Techs upgrade in the next year, it will be quite a burden on the VEs for a while. Nobody really knows what will happen. The VEs will rise to the challenge, just they did in 2000. Look again at the AH0A data from 2000, and from this week. Or compare the numbers I post twice a month. Are the changes really that dramatic? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
N2EY:
I think that is excellent, indeed, I think they should start at general with HF. Here is a link to all the correct answers for the general test: http://blake.prohosting.com/mailguy2/generaltest.txt If they simply can't memorize these correct answers, they have no business being generals in arrl's army! John wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Interesting - in many ways! For one thing, there would still be two kinds of Technicians - those with HF and those without. Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point that licensees are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want more privileges, they show that development by upgrading. The problem is that such an implementation of the concept contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons! The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech-with-HF is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not. The latter has some HF privileges and the former has none. The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and proposes to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?! The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only, and require at least a General for HF. That may sound farfetched, but consider that the number of Novices is slowly dropping since that license class has been closed to new issues. If Element 1 disappears, the number of code-tested Techs will have to drop, too, as there won't be any more new ones. Eventually there won't be any of Novices or code-tested Techs left - which means no more entry-level licensees with HF privileges. Of course it will take years for all of them to disappear, but such a system doesn't cost FCC any admin resources. But more telling would be how many Techs would get Generals or Extras in order to get HF. I think that will indeed be very interesting. Yes! I was plotting the data from the ah0a site out of curiosity and it is easy to see on a graph the bubble in 2000 and it is easy to see the fact that it was small and temporary. The only class that is steadily increasing significantly in numbers is the Extra. Plain and simple fact. Can't escape it. We'd finally see how much of a "barrier" the 5 wpm code test really is/was, by how many Techs upgrade and how many don't. My guess is that at least half the Technicians are inactive and will not upgrade. Of the remaining portion, there will probably be half that either don't hear about the change or don't hear that much about the change and so won't pursue it. There will also be a handful that aren't really interested in HF and so will not upgrade. Still if only 1/4 of the Techs upgrade in the next year, it will be quite a burden on the VEs for a while. Nobody really knows what will happen. The VEs will rise to the challenge, just they did in 2000. Look again at the AH0A data from 2000, and from this week. Or compare the numbers I post twice a month. Are the changes really that dramatic? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Interesting - in many ways! For one thing, there would still be two kinds of Technicians - those with HF and those without. Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point that licensees are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want more privileges, they show that development by upgrading. The problem is that such an implementation of the concept contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons! But it does completely satisfy those who kept hammering on no automatic upgrades and then some as I got the impression that most would not have minded Techs being consolidated with Tech Plus at the Tech Plus privileges even though otherwise against automatic upgrades. The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech-with-HF is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not. The latter has some HF privileges and the former has none. The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and proposes to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?! The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only, and require at least a General for HF. It is hard to say what the FCC was thinking. However perhaps they too are looking at the statistics and interpret it as no need for the introductory license to have HF privileges. Afterall the Novice are declining at a fast enough pace that it looks like almost none are active and that almost all are failing to renew. They can easily go into the data as they have it and see how many Tech Pluses actually upgraded, let themselves lapse, or simply renewed. The last indicating a low activity level and/or interest level since they have not upgraded. Also, they may be thinking that this keeps the minimum number to tests to get onto HF at least at two. The Novices had to take two and Techs after April 2000 had to take two to get on HF. Prior to that, Techs had to take 3 tests to get on HF (Novice written, Tech written, and code). They also discussed the concept that they do not want Techs to stay at the Tech level. They consider upgrading as a significant element in individuals fulfilling the basis and purpose of ham radio (i.e. self training, etc). Allowing the Technicians some HF privileges reduces the motivation to upgrade. And the FCC repeately referred to the Techs being able to get on HF by taking the simple written test to upgrade to General. That may sound farfetched, but consider that the number of Novices is slowly dropping since that license class has been closed to new issues. If Element 1 disappears, the number of code-tested Techs will have to drop, too, as there won't be any more new ones. Eventually there won't be any of Novices or code-tested Techs left - which means no more entry-level licensees with HF privileges. As a VE and instructor, it's been my observation that not that many Techs bother to take the code until they are ready to upgrade to General. Of course this is limited to the sessions that I have participated in. However in the last 5 years, we've only tested a couple of Techs for code privileges. And those two were not taking it as an upgrade to Tech but at the same session with their Tech written. The rest were all trying for their General licenses (i.e. had their General written CSCE in hand or were trying for their General written at the same session). Of course it will take years for all of them to disappear, but such a system doesn't cost FCC any admin resources. Maximum of ten years from the date of the R&O if they don't renew or upgrade. Potentially far longer if they do renew. But more telling would be how many Techs would get Generals or Extras in order to get HF. I think that will indeed be very interesting. Yes! I was plotting the data from the ah0a site out of curiosity and it is easy to see on a graph the bubble in 2000 and it is easy to see the fact that it was small and temporary. The only class that is steadily increasing significantly in numbers is the Extra. Plain and simple fact. Can't escape it. We'd finally see how much of a "barrier" the 5 wpm code test really is/was, by how many Techs upgrade and how many don't. My guess is that at least half the Technicians are inactive and will not upgrade. Of the remaining portion, there will probably be half that either don't hear about the change or don't hear that much about the change and so won't pursue it. There will also be a handful that aren't really interested in HF and so will not upgrade. Still if only 1/4 of the Techs upgrade in the next year, it will be quite a burden on the VEs for a while. Nobody really knows what will happen. The VEs will rise to the challenge, just they did in 2000. Yes they will. In reality, I don't expect that we will be swamped as the excuses will begin ("I don't have time to study right now", etc). We will get hit with a bump in the numbers but it won't be that bad. Afterall just look at the bump in 2000. There were something like 100,000+ Tech Pluses and the number of upgrades while higher for a few months wasn't all that large. Look again at the AH0A data from 2000, and from this week. Or compare the numbers I post twice a month. Are the changes really that dramatic? Not really. Although as I mentioned earlier, I think under the new system, we will gradually drift towards a de facto two class system (General & Extra) at least among the hams who are actually active. 73 de Jim, N2EY Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dee:
It is obvious, the FCC has chosen the "Time Solution." Now people can grab their licenses with no problems from CW. Time passes, the problem cures itself when all protesters have gone SK, and the real final changes can be instituted. It is probably the best decision given the religious zealots surrounding CW. John "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Interesting - in many ways! For one thing, there would still be two kinds of Technicians - those with HF and those without. Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point that licensees are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want more privileges, they show that development by upgrading. The problem is that such an implementation of the concept contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons! But it does completely satisfy those who kept hammering on no automatic upgrades and then some as I got the impression that most would not have minded Techs being consolidated with Tech Plus at the Tech Plus privileges even though otherwise against automatic upgrades. The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech-with-HF is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not. The latter has some HF privileges and the former has none. The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and proposes to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?! The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only, and require at least a General for HF. It is hard to say what the FCC was thinking. However perhaps they too are looking at the statistics and interpret it as no need for the introductory license to have HF privileges. Afterall the Novice are declining at a fast enough pace that it looks like almost none are active and that almost all are failing to renew. They can easily go into the data as they have it and see how many Tech Pluses actually upgraded, let themselves lapse, or simply renewed. The last indicating a low activity level and/or interest level since they have not upgraded. Also, they may be thinking that this keeps the minimum number to tests to get onto HF at least at two. The Novices had to take two and Techs after April 2000 had to take two to get on HF. Prior to that, Techs had to take 3 tests to get on HF (Novice written, Tech written, and code). They also discussed the concept that they do not want Techs to stay at the Tech level. They consider upgrading as a significant element in individuals fulfilling the basis and purpose of ham radio (i.e. self training, etc). Allowing the Technicians some HF privileges reduces the motivation to upgrade. And the FCC repeately referred to the Techs being able to get on HF by taking the simple written test to upgrade to General. That may sound farfetched, but consider that the number of Novices is slowly dropping since that license class has been closed to new issues. If Element 1 disappears, the number of code-tested Techs will have to drop, too, as there won't be any more new ones. Eventually there won't be any of Novices or code-tested Techs left - which means no more entry-level licensees with HF privileges. As a VE and instructor, it's been my observation that not that many Techs bother to take the code until they are ready to upgrade to General. Of course this is limited to the sessions that I have participated in. However in the last 5 years, we've only tested a couple of Techs for code privileges. And those two were not taking it as an upgrade to Tech but at the same session with their Tech written. The rest were all trying for their General licenses (i.e. had their General written CSCE in hand or were trying for their General written at the same session). Of course it will take years for all of them to disappear, but such a system doesn't cost FCC any admin resources. Maximum of ten years from the date of the R&O if they don't renew or upgrade. Potentially far longer if they do renew. But more telling would be how many Techs would get Generals or Extras in order to get HF. I think that will indeed be very interesting. Yes! I was plotting the data from the ah0a site out of curiosity and it is easy to see on a graph the bubble in 2000 and it is easy to see the fact that it was small and temporary. The only class that is steadily increasing significantly in numbers is the Extra. Plain and simple fact. Can't escape it. We'd finally see how much of a "barrier" the 5 wpm code test really is/was, by how many Techs upgrade and how many don't. My guess is that at least half the Technicians are inactive and will not upgrade. Of the remaining portion, there will probably be half that either don't hear about the change or don't hear that much about the change and so won't pursue it. There will also be a handful that aren't really interested in HF and so will not upgrade. Still if only 1/4 of the Techs upgrade in the next year, it will be quite a burden on the VEs for a while. Nobody really knows what will happen. The VEs will rise to the challenge, just they did in 2000. Yes they will. In reality, I don't expect that we will be swamped as the excuses will begin ("I don't have time to study right now", etc). We will get hit with a bump in the numbers but it won't be that bad. Afterall just look at the bump in 2000. There were something like 100,000+ Tech Pluses and the number of upgrades while higher for a few months wasn't all that large. Look again at the AH0A data from 2000, and from this week. Or compare the numbers I post twice a month. Are the changes really that dramatic? Not really. Although as I mentioned earlier, I think under the new system, we will gradually drift towards a de facto two class system (General & Extra) at least among the hams who are actually active. 73 de Jim, N2EY Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Interesting - in many ways! For one thing, there would still be two kinds of Technicians - those with HF and those without. Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point that licensees are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want more privileges, they show that development by upgrading. The problem is that such an implementation of the concept contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons! But it does completely satisfy those who kept hammering on no automatic upgrades and then some as I got the impression that most would not have minded Techs being consolidated with Tech Plus at the Tech Plus privileges even though otherwise against automatic upgrades. Perhaps. Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go for General or Extra. The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech- with-HF is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not. The latter has some HF privileges and the former has none. The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and proposes to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?! The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only, and require at least a General for HF. It is hard to say what the FCC was thinking. However perhaps they too are looking at the statistics and interpret it as no need for the introductory license to have HF privileges. Afterall the Novice are declining at a fast enough pace that it looks like almost none are active and that almost all are failing to renew. They can easily go into the data as they have it and see how many Tech Pluses actually upgraded, let themselves lapse, or simply renewed. The last indicating a low activity level and/or interest level since they have not upgraded. The number of upgrades isn't easily obtained from the database, though. Also, they may be thinking that this keeps the minimum number to tests to get onto HF at least at two. The Novices had to take two and Techs after April 2000 had to take two to get on HF. Prior to that, Techs had to take 3 tests to get on HF (Novice written, Tech written, and code). True enough! And when you consider that the old, pre-restructuring 20 wpm *Extra* was earned by at least one third-grader at the age of 8, it's a bit hard to accept that the written tests are "too hard". (OTOH, the same can be said about the code tests...) They also discussed the concept that they do not want Techs to stay at the Tech level. They consider upgrading as a significant element in individuals fulfilling the basis and purpose of ham radio (i.e. self training, etc). Allowing the Technicians some HF privileges reduces the motivation to upgrade. And the FCC repeately referred to the Techs being able to get on HF by taking the simple written test to upgrade to General. It gets more and more interesting. Sounds like a rebirth of Incentive Licensing. Think about it: FCC saying that it's *not OK* to stay a Tech!?! That upgrading is part of being a good ham and supporting the Basis and Purpose... That may sound farfetched, but consider that the number of Novices is slowly dropping since that license class has been closed to new issues. If Element 1 disappears, the number of code-tested Techs will have to drop, too, as there won't be any more new ones. Eventually there won't be any of Novices or code-tested Techs left - which means no more entry-level licensees with HF privileges. As a VE and instructor, it's been my observation that not that many Techs bother to take the code until they are ready to upgrade to General. Of course this is limited to the sessions that I have participated in. However in the last 5 years, we've only tested a couple of Techs for code privileges. And those two were not taking it as an upgrade to Tech but at the same session with their Tech written. The rest were all trying for their General licenses (i.e. had their General written CSCE in hand or were trying for their General written at the same session). Which all makes sense. On top of that, since 1991 I have known many hams who bypassed Novice and went to Tech with the reasoning that they could then upgrade one step at a time, rather than having to prepare for two tests at the same time. Of course it will take years for all of them to disappear, but such a system doesn't cost FCC any admin resources. Maximum of ten years from the date of the R&O if they don't renew or upgrade. Potentially far longer if they do renew. Yup. In less than 5 years there will be no more Tech Pluses in the database even if the rules don't change. But more telling would be how many Techs would get Generals or Extras in order to get HF. I think that will indeed be very interesting. Yes! I was plotting the data from the ah0a site out of curiosity and it is easy to see on a graph the bubble in 2000 and it is easy to see the fact that it was small and temporary. The only class that is steadily increasing significantly in numbers is the Extra. Plain and simple fact. Can't escape it. We'd finally see how much of a "barrier" the 5 wpm code test really is/was, by how many Techs upgrade and how many don't. My guess is that at least half the Technicians are inactive and will not upgrade. Of the remaining portion, there will probably be half that either don't hear about the change or don't hear that much about the change and so won't pursue it. There will also be a handful that aren't really interested in HF and so will not upgrade. Still if only 1/4 of the Techs upgrade in the next year, it will be quite a burden on the VEs for a while. Nobody really knows what will happen. The VEs will rise to the challenge, just they did in 2000. Yes they will. In reality, I don't expect that we will be swamped as the excuses will begin ("I don't have time to study right now", etc). We will get hit with a bump in the numbers but it won't be that bad. After all just look at the bump in 2000. There were something like 100,000+ Tech Pluses and the number of upgrades while higher for a few months wasn't all that large. And a lot of them were paper-only upgrades. Another factor: if the rules do change, we will probably see a surge of VE action as soon as the changes are announced. This surge will be driven by two forces, as was the pre-April-2000 surge: 1) - Hams getting licenses *before* the rules change so they can say they did 2) - Hams getting CSCEs ahead of time so that they can upgrade under the new rules on the day the rules change. Back in April 2000, there were several no-test VE sessions set up to handle the CSCE surge... Look again at the AH0A data from 2000, and from this week. Or compare the numbers I post twice a month. Are the changes really that dramatic? Not really. Although as I mentioned earlier, I think under the new system, we will gradually drift towards a de facto two class system (General & Extra) at least among the hams who are actually active. I disagree somewhat. Two observations: 1) Notice how slowly the Advanced is declining. 5 years and 3 months since it was closed to new issues, and yet the number of Advanceds is about 75% of what it was then. This is despite the attrition to expirations and the written-test-only upgrade to Extra. 2) The number of Generals surged after 2000, but is not growing anymore. General has become a intermediate step on the way to Extra. What we're heading for may be more of a 4 class system - Tech/General/Advanced/Extra. If we do get a de facto 2 class system, it will probably be more like Tech/Extra rather than General/Extra. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: [snip] Not really. Although as I mentioned earlier, I think under the new system, we will gradually drift towards a de facto two class system (General & Extra) at least among the hams who are actually active. I disagree somewhat. Two observations: 1) Notice how slowly the Advanced is declining. 5 years and 3 months since it was closed to new issues, and yet the number of Advanceds is about 75% of what it was then. This is despite the attrition to expirations and the written-test-only upgrade to Extra. 2) The number of Generals surged after 2000, but is not growing anymore. General has become a intermediate step on the way to Extra. What we're heading for may be more of a 4 class system - Tech/General/Advanced/Extra. If we do get a de facto 2 class system, it will probably be more like Tech/Extra rather than General/Extra. 73 de Jim, N2EY It is very difficult to guess but I would expect a significant number of people to take the Tech & General at the same time as there is only a small jump in difficulty level so that their original licenses will be General. In any classes that I teach, that will be the approach that I take and I will have a syllabus geared towards that goal. If you are familiar with the "Now You're Talking" study guides from the 1992 era, you will recall that it covered both the Novice written and Technician written. It actively encouraged students to take the road of studying for both writtens (and code) and take all the tests. I'll take the same approach. This way the material that is repeated between the Tech & General needs to be studied only once. However, it wouldn't surprise me to see Extra eventually become the largest class under the upcoming system. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: It is very difficult to guess but I would expect a significant number of people to take the Tech & General at the same time as there is only a small jump in difficulty level so that their original licenses will be General. Well, "small jump in difficulty" is subjective. Back in 1987, FCC thought the difference was significant enough that they split the old General into two elements. Old 3 became 3A and 3B, with 3A for Tech and both for General. In any classes that I teach, that will be the approach that I take and I will have a syllabus geared towards that goal. If you are familiar with the "Now You're Talking" study guides from the 1992 era, you will recall that it covered both the Novice written and Technician written. It actively encouraged students to take the road of studying for both writtens (and code) and take all the tests. I'll take the same approach. This way the material that is repeated between the Tech & General needs to be studied only once. I think it all depends on the individual. Some will find the two tests a big step, others won't. However, it wouldn't surprise me to see Extra eventually become the largest class under the upcoming system. Well, look at the numbers. Back in May 2000, Extras made up just 11.67% of then-current licenses held by individuals (78,750 out of 674,792) Today, Extras make up 16.10% of current licenses held by individuals (106,900 out of 664,040). Meanwhile, the combined Tech class percentages have *dropped*: May 2000: 49.5% of then-current licenses held by individuals were Tech or Tech Plus (334,254 out of 674,792) Today: 47.8% of current licenses held by individuals are Tech or Tech Plus (317,452 out of 664,040) If you add in Novices, so that you're looking at all the "entry level" licenses, the difference is even greater. Perhaps you're right, Dee. Maybe the system will evolve to something approaching a two-level system, in that there will be a few Techs, lots of Generals and lots of Extras. --- I read the FCC document again. Seems very clear to me that FCC's vision for the Technician is that it will have *no*, repeat *no*, HF privileges. Instead, FCC intends that those who want HF pass at least the General test. Of course those who have Novice or "Tech with HF" privileges won't lose them. But both existing noncodetested Techs and future ones will have no HF privileges at all, under the FCC proposal. This is evident from a careful reading of the proposal. Here's why: The proposed changes to the rules are very simple. First, Element 1 would simply be deleted. No more Morse Code testing at all. Second, the requirements and credits for existing licenses would change slightly. Getting a Tech would require Element 2, getting a General would require Elements 2 and 3, and getting an Extra would require Elements 2, 3 and 4. And that's about it for changes to Part 97. The Part 97 verbiage about HF privileges for Techs involves those who have passed a Morse Code exam and retain license documents to prove it. But if Element 1 is deleted, there will be no way for anyone to pass such an exam, and so there will be no new Techs with HF privileges. IOW, existing noncodetested Techs *will not* get any HF under the FCC proposal as written. This is backed up by repeated verbiage in the document about no one getting privileges without passing the exams. No free upgrades for anybody. FCC also repeatedly mentions the generous HF and MF privileges that would be obtained by passing the written for General. 73 de Jim, N2EY 313 btw, the comments of two regular posters to rrap were mentioned in the document. |
N2EY:
I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one... John wrote in message ups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: It is very difficult to guess but I would expect a significant number of people to take the Tech & General at the same time as there is only a small jump in difficulty level so that their original licenses will be General. Well, "small jump in difficulty" is subjective. Back in 1987, FCC thought the difference was significant enough that they split the old General into two elements. Old 3 became 3A and 3B, with 3A for Tech and both for General. In any classes that I teach, that will be the approach that I take and I will have a syllabus geared towards that goal. If you are familiar with the "Now You're Talking" study guides from the 1992 era, you will recall that it covered both the Novice written and Technician written. It actively encouraged students to take the road of studying for both writtens (and code) and take all the tests. I'll take the same approach. This way the material that is repeated between the Tech & General needs to be studied only once. I think it all depends on the individual. Some will find the two tests a big step, others won't. However, it wouldn't surprise me to see Extra eventually become the largest class under the upcoming system. Well, look at the numbers. Back in May 2000, Extras made up just 11.67% of then-current licenses held by individuals (78,750 out of 674,792) Today, Extras make up 16.10% of current licenses held by individuals (106,900 out of 664,040). Meanwhile, the combined Tech class percentages have *dropped*: May 2000: 49.5% of then-current licenses held by individuals were Tech or Tech Plus (334,254 out of 674,792) Today: 47.8% of current licenses held by individuals are Tech or Tech Plus (317,452 out of 664,040) If you add in Novices, so that you're looking at all the "entry level" licenses, the difference is even greater. Perhaps you're right, Dee. Maybe the system will evolve to something approaching a two-level system, in that there will be a few Techs, lots of Generals and lots of Extras. --- I read the FCC document again. Seems very clear to me that FCC's vision for the Technician is that it will have *no*, repeat *no*, HF privileges. Instead, FCC intends that those who want HF pass at least the General test. Of course those who have Novice or "Tech with HF" privileges won't lose them. But both existing noncodetested Techs and future ones will have no HF privileges at all, under the FCC proposal. This is evident from a careful reading of the proposal. Here's why: The proposed changes to the rules are very simple. First, Element 1 would simply be deleted. No more Morse Code testing at all. Second, the requirements and credits for existing licenses would change slightly. Getting a Tech would require Element 2, getting a General would require Elements 2 and 3, and getting an Extra would require Elements 2, 3 and 4. And that's about it for changes to Part 97. The Part 97 verbiage about HF privileges for Techs involves those who have passed a Morse Code exam and retain license documents to prove it. But if Element 1 is deleted, there will be no way for anyone to pass such an exam, and so there will be no new Techs with HF privileges. IOW, existing noncodetested Techs *will not* get any HF under the FCC proposal as written. This is backed up by repeated verbiage in the document about no one getting privileges without passing the exams. No free upgrades for anybody. FCC also repeatedly mentions the generous HF and MF privileges that would be obtained by passing the written for General. 73 de Jim, N2EY 313 btw, the comments of two regular posters to rrap were mentioned in the document. |
"John Smith" wrote in message ... N2EY: I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one... John As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General. Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are not ready to go this route just yet. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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From: Michael Coslo on Aug 2, 6:57 am
wrote: Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message Dee Flint wrote: In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear that they expect any Tech not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs) to take the General exam and upgrade to get HF privileges. Interesting - in many ways! For one thing, there would still be two kinds of Technicians - those with HF and those without. Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point that licensees are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want more privileges, they show that development by upgrading. The problem is that such an implementation of the concept contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons! But it does completely satisfy those who kept hammering on no automatic upgrades and then some as I got the impression that most would not have minded Techs being consolidated with Tech Plus at the Tech Plus privileges even though otherwise against automatic upgrades. Perhaps. Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go for General or Extra. But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with Technician) earlier? Oh, my, all that SPECULATION and the "bearing down heavily!" WT Docket 05-235 is about ONE thing and ONE thing only: Delete or retain the morse code test. The FCC expects deletion but will not order that until all Comments are done and has reached a conclusion on the basis of those Comments. NOTHING in that docket was about "restructuring" anything but test element 1 statements. Whatever else anyone in this group has said/pronounced/babbled about is PURE SUBJECTIVE SPECTULATION. Tsk, where are all the "insiders" who used to say "exactly what the FCC was thinking?!?" [ as if... ] And when you consider that the old, pre-restructuring 20 wpm *Extra* was earned by at least one third-grader at the age of 8, it's a bit hard to accept that the written tests are "too hard". (OTOH, the same can be said about the code tests...) Tsk, the FCC doesn't recognize AGE. :-) WT Docket 05-235 is NOT about license classes, "restructuring" acts befores or afters, or WRITTEN TESTS. It is concerned with Test Element 1 deletion or retention. Tsk, tsk, you people just have NO focus... It gets more and more interesting. Sounds like a rebirth of Incentive Licensing. Sounds more like you PCTAs have way too much time on your hands when you cannot understand what 05-235 is about... THey better call it something else! ;^) WT Docket 05-235 is good enough for the FCC. Why isn't it good enough for you PCTAs? Think about it: FCC saying that it's *not OK* to stay a Tech!?! Only one little problem: The FCC did NOT say that in WT Docket 05-235. rest snipped Just as well. You PCTAs just can't focus on THE important part of U.S. amateur radio regulations for entering amateur radio...the morse code test. bla bla |
"Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message ... N2EY: I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one... John As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General. Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are not ready to go this route just yet. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE That is a good idea Dee. With the massive desertion of V/UHF for HF, it will be a vast wasteland. Yes indeed, standby for the giant sucking sound. All us present users of HF will have to make room, we will have phone all the way down to 14.010. The FCC will be deluged with demands, yes demands for more spectrum. Even 11 meters will be turned back into a ham band. After all that is what all the anti-code is all about, right? Dan/W4NTI |
Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote: Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message groups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message legroups.com... Dee Flint wrote: Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go for General or Extra. But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with Technician) earlier? I'm not sure what you're getting at, Mike. 05-235 isn't just an NPRM, and it isn't just about Element 1. It's actually FCC's response to the 18 petitions, and denies most of what was requested, with explanations of FCC's reasoning. For example, FCC states that they see a 3-license-class system as the correct number of license classes to work towards. They specifically deny four-class and two-class suggestions (sorry, Hans - FCC obviously read your ideas and disagreed). Yet at the same time FCC doesn't want free upgrades, giveaways, more complexity in the license structure, nor anybody to lose privileges. FCC also doesn't see any need for a new entry level license, nor changes in the subband structure, nor big changes in the written test methods. All this is spelled out in detail in 05-235. It's not speculation nor interpretation. One by one, almost all the proposed changes are denied by FCC. All that is left up for grabs is the one remaining code test, which FCC proposes to eliminate. As I've said before, I'm surprised it took FCC this long. When FCC wrote in the R&O for 98-143 that the only reason Element 1 was being retained was the treaty, the future was pretty clear. The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech- with-HF is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not. The latter has some HF privileges and the former has none. The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and proposes to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?! The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only, and require at least a General for HF. It is hard to say what the FCC was thinking. However perhaps they too are looking at the statistics and interpret it as no need for the introductory license to have HF privileges. Afterall the Novice are declining at a fast enough pace that it looks like almost none are active and that almost all are failing to renew. They can easily go into the data as they have it and see how many Tech Pluses actually upgraded, let themselves lapse, or simply renewed. The last indicating a low activity level and/or interest level since they have not upgraded. The number of upgrades isn't easily obtained from the database, though. Also, they may be thinking that this keeps the minimum number to tests to get onto HF at least at two. The Novices had to take two and Techs after April 2000 had to take two to get on HF. Prior to that, Techs had to take 3 tests to get on HF (Novice written, Tech written, and code). True enough! And when you consider that the old, pre-restructuring 20 wpm *Extra* was earned by at least one third-grader at the age of 8, it's a bit hard to accept that the written tests are "too hard". (OTOH, the same can be said about the code tests...) They also discussed the concept that they do not want Techs to stay at the Tech level. They consider upgrading as a significant element in individuals fulfilling the basis and purpose of ham radio (i.e. self training, etc). Allowing the Technicians some HF privileges reduces the motivation to upgrade. And the FCC repeately referred to the Techs being able to get on HF by taking the simple written test to upgrade to General. It gets more and more interesting. Sounds like a rebirth of Incentive Licensing. THey better call it something else! ;^) Why? FCC specifically uses the term "incentives" and says the primary incentive is spectrum space. They say such incentives will not be removed. In the discussion where FCC denies automatic upgrades and expansion of privileges for various license classes, FCC says such things are disincentives to upgrading. In fact if you read the document carefully, there's a bit of a tone that says 'how easy do you want us to make it? We're saying we'll dump the code test. If you want the privs, take the tests!' Think about it: FCC saying that it's *not OK* to stay a Tech!?! That upgrading is part of being a good ham and supporting the Basis and Purpose... Works for me! Yup. It's clear where FCC wants things to go. Start out the beginners on VHF/UHF, offering HF/MF as the big incentive to get a General. Those who want those little pieces of HF and a fancy callsign can go for Extra. They're also clearly saying that anybody with an existing license will be able to upgrade by just taking a written test, so what's the problem? Are the tests really so hard, and VE sessions so difficult to access? Eventually the closed-off license classes will disappear from the database, and the rules governing them will be removed. -- Another idea: Suppose Element 1 is eliminated, but the number of US hams continues to decline. What will be the fix then? 73 de Jim, N2EY 313 |
Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message ... N2EY: I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one... John As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General. Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are not ready to go this route just yet. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE That is a good idea Dee. With the massive desertion of V/UHF for HF, it will be a vast wasteland. Yes indeed, standby for the giant sucking sound. All us present users of HF will have to make room, we will have phone all the way down to 14.010. The FCC will be deluged with demands, yes demands for more spectrum. Maybe not, Dan. The license is just the first step. Then comes building a station, putting up an effective antenna, getting on the air, learning the characteristics of the various bands, etc. How many folks are actually going to do all that? Particularly during sunspot minimum? Even 11 meters will be turned back into a ham band. A lot of folks are going to be surprised that all of HF isn't like 11 m. After all that is what all the anti-code is all about, right? We'll see. --- One report I read is that in Germany, where the code test was dumped some time back, there has been an *increased interest* in Morse Code operation! Apparently a sizable number of newcomers want to use Morse Code, test or no test, simply because it's different, takes skill, etc. 73 de Jim, N2EY 313 |
wrote How many folks are actually going to do all that? Hundreds of thousands of us have done it to date. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
wrote in message ups.com... Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message ... N2EY: I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one... John As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General. Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are not ready to go this route just yet. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE That is a good idea Dee. With the massive desertion of V/UHF for HF, it will be a vast wasteland. Yes indeed, standby for the giant sucking sound. All us present users of HF will have to make room, we will have phone all the way down to 14.010. The FCC will be deluged with demands, yes demands for more spectrum. Maybe not, Dan. The license is just the first step. Then comes building a station, putting up an effective antenna, getting on the air, learning the characteristics of the various bands, etc. How many folks are actually going to do all that? Particularly during sunspot minimum? Yeah I think we won't see any major changes. There will be a noticeable blip in upgrades but that's about it. Actually the fact that it is being implemented at the time of a sunspot minimum means we are at risk of losing hams as they upgrade, find the HF bands difficult and then drop out. We'll really need to do some exra Elmering to help the new people and keep them in the hobby. Even 11 meters will be turned back into a ham band. A lot of folks are going to be surprised that all of HF isn't like 11 m. After all that is what all the anti-code is all about, right? We'll see. --- One report I read is that in Germany, where the code test was dumped some time back, there has been an *increased interest* in Morse Code operation! Apparently a sizable number of newcomers want to use Morse Code, test or no test, simply because it's different, takes skill, etc. 73 de Jim, N2EY 313 I hope so. Again perhaps the fact that the change in the code requirements comes as we approach a solar minimum will affect how people view the code. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
K=D8HB wrote:
wrote How many folks are actually going to do all that? Hundreds of thousands of us have done it to date. Hundreds of millions haven't, too. 73 de Jim, N2EY btw, Hans, you were one of only two regular rrap posters whose comments were quoted by FCC in 05-235. FCC agreed with some of what you wrote but not most of it. 73 de Jim, N2EY 313 |
Dee:
You might be right, I think I have a defective crystal ball anyway, never has worked with 100% accuracy, not even close :( However, I have been on CB channel 17--27.165 a lot, informing the truck drivers, they seem very interested, about 1 out of every five want to know more. In reality this probably translates to 1 out of every 10 which will actually do something about it (quite possibly even lower). Still, if word is gotten out effectively, should produce quite a "bump" in new licenses. Those guys carry the word to many states. Also, first time I catch Art Bell on 3.840Mhz, I will try to get him to mention it on his show (I certainly don't have special influence with the man, but if enough of us prompt him, hey!), the discontinuance of CW, perhaps even give a little chat on the benefits of the hobby, that show reaches millions! He should be able to create quite a "bump" all on his own! Be nice to see him do an hour or so with a couple of hams "friendly" to these new changes and stoke the hype up a bit... Let's make this "bump" as BIG as we can! I have posted a flyer on all the bulletin boards at the college too, and an EE professor extra has offered to assist newbies to amateur radio. He has gotten the ok to use the college facilities and even set up some kind of summer course (~1 unit) to prepare in obtaining a general ticket. We will be keeping our fingers crossed here... John "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... wrote in message ups.com... Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message ... N2EY: I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one... John As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General. Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are not ready to go this route just yet. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE That is a good idea Dee. With the massive desertion of V/UHF for HF, it will be a vast wasteland. Yes indeed, standby for the giant sucking sound. All us present users of HF will have to make room, we will have phone all the way down to 14.010. The FCC will be deluged with demands, yes demands for more spectrum. Maybe not, Dan. The license is just the first step. Then comes building a station, putting up an effective antenna, getting on the air, learning the characteristics of the various bands, etc. How many folks are actually going to do all that? Particularly during sunspot minimum? Yeah I think we won't see any major changes. There will be a noticeable blip in upgrades but that's about it. Actually the fact that it is being implemented at the time of a sunspot minimum means we are at risk of losing hams as they upgrade, find the HF bands difficult and then drop out. We'll really need to do some exra Elmering to help the new people and keep them in the hobby. Even 11 meters will be turned back into a ham band. A lot of folks are going to be surprised that all of HF isn't like 11 m. After all that is what all the anti-code is all about, right? We'll see. --- One report I read is that in Germany, where the code test was dumped some time back, there has been an *increased interest* in Morse Code operation! Apparently a sizable number of newcomers want to use Morse Code, test or no test, simply because it's different, takes skill, etc. 73 de Jim, N2EY 313 I hope so. Again perhaps the fact that the change in the code requirements comes as we approach a solar minimum will affect how people view the code. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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wrote FCC agreed with some of what you wrote.... Even though Len took 6 pages to advise the FCC that my remarks were "out of place", and "inappropriate as well as misdirected". beep beep de Hans, K0HB |
John Smith wrote:
Mike: At this point, amateur is just NOT that technical... However, it still can fill one of its' directives it was given, and the hams be ambassadors of goodwill... Hey, it is a hobby, perfect for the CB'ers. It can be technical--and perfect for the computer communications people. It can go anywhere from here, and probably be multiuse without a problem... My whole beef is not exactly how technical the hobby is or isn't. I have problems with the idea that is trotted out from time to time, about how relaxation or elimination, or whatever, of some technical aspect of licensing is going to attract technical people. I'd give them a lot more credibility if they said: We're tired of all the whining about the Morse code test. So Element one goes away. Now would you people get on with your life?" That would be intellectually honest. - Mike KB3EIA - |
KØHB wrote:
wrote FCC agreed with some of what you wrote.... Even though Len took 6 pages to advise the FCC that my remarks were "out of place", and "inappropriate as well as misdirected". Do you mean the Len who told us that he wasn't attempting to dictate how amateur radio should be regulated? Dave K8MN |
Mike:
Building antennas of their own will attract people. Building linears of their own will attract people. Fiddling with feedlines, etc... Building radios is going bye, bye... the new ones will be PCI cards, USB external devices, etc... your new rig will be a computer with external components... Human hands, in most cases, are just not designed to create computer cards... John "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... John Smith wrote: Mike: At this point, amateur is just NOT that technical... However, it still can fill one of its' directives it was given, and the hams be ambassadors of goodwill... Hey, it is a hobby, perfect for the CB'ers. It can be technical--and perfect for the computer communications people. It can go anywhere from here, and probably be multiuse without a problem... My whole beef is not exactly how technical the hobby is or isn't. I have problems with the idea that is trotted out from time to time, about how relaxation or elimination, or whatever, of some technical aspect of licensing is going to attract technical people. I'd give them a lot more credibility if they said: We're tired of all the whining about the Morse code test. So Element one goes away. Now would you people get on with your life?" That would be intellectually honest. - Mike KB3EIA - |
From: John Smith on Aug 2, 3:59 pm
Len: My gawd, get out the antacid, laxatives, etc and pass them out freely!!!! I need them not...but what IS needed for some of these beeping bleeping PCTA extras is SMART PILLS. Geez, what a group of conspiracy thinkers and those who SEE things that aren't there! This belly-aching is going to go on forever, fact is CW looks almost certain to fall. And, the CB'ers are on the march to get their "KeenWoods" and "davemade" products now, in anticipation... shrug ... amateur radio is about to take on a new personality. Damn good! The OLD personality was getting terminally geriatric what with all the "pioneering by morsemanship" triumphed as the Second Coming in radio...in 2005. Truckers with extra licenses, house wife's as generals, kiddie techs, the possibilities are endless... John, ANYONE can get a ham license if they want one. Some PCTA extras have blabbed that over and over and over again to me. "TRUCKERS!?" Hell no, they can't go! They used evil, wicked, mean, nasty, and HIGHLY ILLEGAL CB!!! cry bye |
From: interpreter for da masses on Aug 2, 4:02 pm
Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message groups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message legroups.com... Dee Flint wrote: Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go for General or Extra. But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with Technician) earlier? I'm not sure what you're getting at, Mike. 05-235 isn't just an NPRM, and it isn't just about Element 1. Tsk, tsk, tsk...the FCC says WT Docket 05-325 is an NPRM and only intends to do something with Test Element 1. They are the LAW in regards to U.S. civil radio. Are you being a LAW-BREAKER? It's actually FCC's response to the 18 petitions, and denies most of what was requested, with explanations of FCC's reasoning. Tsk. After two years of very NON-consensus-viewpoint petitioning on a "mere" EIGHTEEN Petitions, you are now going to give everyone the "real reasons?!?" Do we congratulate you on your new LAW degree? The Notice of Proposed Rule Making is quite clear to me. They provide a lot of material THEY used to reach THEIR decisions. But, you have the "real reason" perhaps from the legendary Sylvia Browne's channeling? :-) For example, FCC states that they see a 3-license-class system as the correct number of license classes to work towards. They specifically deny four-class and two-class suggestions (sorry, Hans - FCC obviously read your ideas and disagreed). Tsk. The FCC listed all 18 Petition numbers in the NPRM heading, throughout the body of the text, and at the end where they had bold-faced type saying in part either "...IS DENIED" or "...IS GRANTED, to the exten indicated herein." Is that somehow too complicated or are you reading someone's tea leaves that threaten a deep dark conspiracy? Yet at the same time FCC doesn't want free upgrades, giveaways, more complexity in the license structure, nor anybody to lose privileges. Did they ever? [except for the creation of CB which all God-fearing Hams thought was the armageddon of radio to allow ordinary non-code-tested civilians to actually transmit on the sacred HF] Is ANYONE "losing privileges" if the subsequent R&O reflects the NPRM? What IS your beef, little ham? FCC also doesn't see any need for a new entry level license, nor changes in the subband structure, nor big changes in the written test methods. All this is spelled out in detail in 05-235. It's not speculation nor interpretation. Tsk, tsk, tsk...you are INTEPRETING all over the place, Jimmie. One by one, almost all the proposed changes are denied by FCC. Tsk, tsk, tsk...read those later pages again, Jimmie. Only EIGHT Petitions were denied. TEN were granted to the extent indicated therein. There is NO WAY CLOSE to "almost all denied" that you state. All that is left up for grabs is the one remaining code test, which FCC proposes to eliminate. Tsk, tsk, tsk. The FCC still has all those Petitions and still has roughly six thousand Comments on them. They CAN, and sometimes HAVE resurrected matters that were once denied and then granted them at a later time. I don't claim to be a legal beagle but the HISTORY of many, many decisions is easily readable by ordinary literate people. As I've said before, I'm surprised it took FCC this long. When FCC wrote in the R&O for 98-143 that the only reason Element 1 was being retained was the treaty, the future was pretty clear. Jimmie, you have ASTOUNDING retrovision, at least 20-10 in Hindsight!!! :-) Tsk, tsk. Turn back the clock just a little ways to 1998 and check on your own postings in regard to FCC 90-53. Recall that one? That was about the creation of the NO-CODE-TEST Technician class. In the year 1990, the FCC said (essentially) that morse code ability was NO indicator to them insofar as being licensed. Imagine, a mere 15 years ago. It's clear where FCC wants things to go. Start out the beginners on VHF/UHF, offering HF/MF as the big incentive to get a General. Those who want those little pieces of HF and a fancy callsign can go for Extra. Tsk, it's NOT CLEAR in WT Docket 05-235. That NPRM is ONLY about deletion of the morse code test. There is NO "treaty" thing [ITU-T S25] that says all administrations MUST give morse code tests to license applicants who with below-30-MHz privilege licenses. "Beginners" (what you PCTA extras call your "lower classes") were once the NOVICE class licensee. Remember them? That's what the "Novice" name means, isn't it? Novices had some HF privileges. But, long after their creation, the Novices were DROPPING OUT. Those Novices MAY have upgraded, but it's obvious not all were doing so...and NEWCOMERS were NOT getting in via that Novice route! Then, in 1991, the "no-code" Tech license got granted. But, under that "treaty" (the OLD S25) they could NOT OPERATE BELOW 30 MHz! S25.5 was not changed until 12 years LATER. [amazing but true...it is history] The "no-code" Tech class license proved to be IMMENSELY POPULAR to "beginners" and even those with years of radio experience in OTHER radio services because there was NO code test! [that may be hard to believe for you but it is true and IS history in the FCC databases] Popular enough that (roughly) 200 THOUSAND no-code-test Technicians joined the "amateur community" (on the outskirts in the ghettos where you PCTAs think they belong). The Novices (the original beginners) kept on dropping in numbers, dropping, dropping until - finally - an Epiphany of Reality dawned on the Newington gods of radio and they "officially" dubbed the no-code-test Technician class the ENTRY CLASS! [not as a "beginner" or other lowly term you elitists love, but ENTRY CLASS] The NPRM does NOT change/alter/modify ANY OTHER regulations as to class, nothing at all but the regulations about the MORSE CODE TEST. That is ALL that WT Docket 05-235 is about. Try, please TRY to understand that. Others do, why can't you? try cry |
From: "K=D8=88B" on Wed 3 Aug 2005 01:13
wrote FCC agreed with some of what you wrote.... Even though Len took 6 pages to advise the FCC that my remarks were "out of place", and "inappropriate as well as misdirected". Poor BAWA, all upset is he? :-) shrug...you were out of place and inappropriate. Try taking criticsm like a man, BAWA. Tuck in your vonnegut. bad ass |
Len:
I can see the new issue of "Hot Mama Truckers" when it hits the stands. A leather thong clad "Mama Trucker", with the mike of her KeenWood in her hand, her other hand resting on a custom made 3KW Davemade Amp. Cowboy encased foot on the side board of her Peterbilt and a wide, and somewhat, toothless grin. And, leaning against a rather phallic shaped object which is actually a 1/2 wave mobile antenna for 10 meters... ahhh, what a centerfold! Doesn't that just present a beautiful visual to your mind? Doesn't she look like a darn angel on that "video screen in your mind?" I tell ya Len, life is good... John wrote in message ups.com... From: John Smith on Aug 2, 3:59 pm Len: My gawd, get out the antacid, laxatives, etc and pass them out freely!!!! I need them not...but what IS needed for some of these beeping bleeping PCTA extras is SMART PILLS. Geez, what a group of conspiracy thinkers and those who SEE things that aren't there! This belly-aching is going to go on forever, fact is CW looks almost certain to fall. And, the CB'ers are on the march to get their "KeenWoods" and "davemade" products now, in anticipation... shrug ... amateur radio is about to take on a new personality. Damn good! The OLD personality was getting terminally geriatric what with all the "pioneering by morsemanship" triumphed as the Second Coming in radio...in 2005. Truckers with extra licenses, house wife's as generals, kiddie techs, the possibilities are endless... John, ANYONE can get a ham license if they want one. Some PCTA extras have blabbed that over and over and over again to me. "TRUCKERS!?" Hell no, they can't go! They used evil, wicked, mean, nasty, and HIGHLY ILLEGAL CB!!! cry bye |
KØHB wrote:
wrote How many folks are actually going to do all that? Hundreds of thousands of us have done it to date. And no doubt that many people will. There will probably be a larger percentage that do not, as the requirements ease. Soon a good "test-taker" will be able to get that license with a lot less effort. There will be a lot of casual Extras. No big deal, but it *will* be a side effect of the new testing requirements. - Mike KB3EIA - |
KØHB wrote:
wrote FCC agreed with some of what you wrote.... Even though Len took 6 pages to advise the FCC that my remarks were "out of place", and "inappropriate as well as misdirected". I wonder how much credence the FCC gives to a person that uses their feedback gathering mechanism to attack other people? - Mike KB3EIA - |
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K4YZ wrote:
wrote: From: Michael Coslo on Aug 2, 6:57 am But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with Technician) earlier? Oh, my, all that SPECULATION and the "bearing down heavily!" WT Docket 05-235 is about ONE thing and ONE thing only: Delete or retain the morse code test...(SNIP) Hey Mike... See what I was saying in another thread about certain posters always dragging any discussion into his realm, no matter what...?!?! Yup. Kinda like the Rush Limbaugh show. I listened for several months, and then I knew exactly what he was going to say on any given topic. So I didn't have to listen any more. I still read every word the lad writes though. Then I simply choose not to respond. Kinda like a zen revenge, I guess! ;^) - Mike KB3EIA - |
"Dee Flint" wrote in message ... Yeah I think we won't see any major changes. There will be a noticeable blip in upgrades but that's about it. Actually the fact that it is being implemented at the time of a sunspot minimum means we are at risk of losing hams as they upgrade, find the HF bands difficult and then drop out. We'll really need to do some exra Elmering to help the new people and keep them in the hobby. Maybe we should ask NASA to launch ECHO again, but make it miles and miles wide, just to reflect HF signals. That way they will have perfect propagation and make life so much easier for the poor babies. Dan/W4NTI |
From: "John Smith" on Tues 2 Aug 2005 22:56
Len: I can see the new issue of "Hot Mama Truckers" when it hits the stands. A leather thong clad "Mama Trucker", with the mike of her KeenWood in her hand, her other hand resting on a custom made 3KW Davemade Amp. Cowboy encased foot on the side board of her Peterbilt and a wide, and somewhat, toothless grin. And, leaning against a rather phallic shaped object which is actually a 1/2 wave mobile antenna for 10 meters... ahhh, what a centerfold! Doesn't that just present a beautiful visual to your mind? Doesn't she look like a darn angel on that "video screen in your mind?" I tell ya Len, life is good... John, put the peyote away, clean up, and go out and "get some" very soon now. You are starting to worry some of us... now get |
Len:
I may have to follow your advice, I have noticed the neighbors have began locking up their dogs, and pulling them away by their leashes as I walk past them. At first, I did not think much about it... now that I have looked in a mirror, I do see a slightly "deranged" look which must be a dead giveaway... John On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:29:43 -0700, LenAnderson wrote: From: "John Smith" on Tues 2 Aug 2005 22:56 Len: I can see the new issue of "Hot Mama Truckers" when it hits the stands. A leather thong clad "Mama Trucker", with the mike of her KeenWood in her hand, her other hand resting on a custom made 3KW Davemade Amp. Cowboy encased foot on the side board of her Peterbilt and a wide, and somewhat, toothless grin. And, leaning against a rather phallic shaped object which is actually a 1/2 wave mobile antenna for 10 meters... ahhh, what a centerfold! Doesn't that just present a beautiful visual to your mind? Doesn't she look like a darn angel on that "video screen in your mind?" I tell ya Len, life is good... John, put the peyote away, clean up, and go out and "get some" very soon now. You are starting to worry some of us... now get |
Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... Yeah I think we won't see any major changes. There will be a noticeable blip in upgrades but that's about it. Actually the fact that it is being implemented at the time of a sunspot minimum means we are at risk of losing hams as they upgrade, find the HF bands difficult and then drop out. We'll really need to do some exra Elmering to help the new people and keep them in the hobby. maybe just try being polite amazing what you get with honey as opposed to Sarin Maybe we should ask NASA to launch ECHO again, but make it miles and miles wide, just to reflect HF signals. That way they will have perfect propagation and make life so much easier for the poor babies. Dan/W4NTI |
Michael:
Yeah, just imagine the lack of tact of some people! Actually using that forum to comment and debate the issues... .... my gawd, why don't they just shut-up and go home! grin John "Michael Coslo" wrote in message ... KØHB wrote: wrote FCC agreed with some of what you wrote.... Even though Len took 6 pages to advise the FCC that my remarks were "out of place", and "inappropriate as well as misdirected". I wonder how much credence the FCC gives to a person that uses their feedback gathering mechanism to attack other people? - Mike KB3EIA - |
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