Dee:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the code, and there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of tech, when there
does not exist any difference between the classes? Often you see this kind
of insanity when the gov't becomes involved, you could argue that point, and there
are no more tech plus licenses being issued, you could also argue that
point.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech plus was ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the same HF allowances.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would care to argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at this point, and the
argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue, it would have to be argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of the
feet...

John


On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:13:52 -0400, Dee Flint wrote:


"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:
"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in
break
There is one loose end, though. I read the NPRM to say that Tech+
would
become closed, so that all new Techs would have to get element 3 to
get
on
HF, but others have read it that all Techs would get Tech+ privileges.
Does
anyone know which is right?

I read it as techs all tech end up with what amounts to what was once
called tech plus,

but anyone that claims to know what the result is likely to prove
themselves a lair


If you are talking about the US proposal, read the NPRM through a couple
of
times. They discuss this at great length. Techs will not get Tech+
privileges. Anyone who wants to increase their privileges will have to
take
a test. They specifically state that no one will get any changes in
privileges. That is also consistent with the way the paragraphs will be
reworded as shown in the appendix.

I have read it and read it and I come to the same conclusion

Finally, one of the posters on eHam called the FCC on this and asked for
and
got clarification. He was told that Techs will not get Tech+ privileges.
It is indeed the FCC's position that anyone desiring more than their
current
privileges must take the appropriate written test.

so what?

It is unlikely that you are going to get anyone on the phone able to
speak for the what the R&O will say before even the end of the coment
period

indeed that issue is the only mystery left,

after all we are assued that No one loses previdges as well, and if all
the langauge that is said to be delected is delected then the old tech
plus folks lose HF access


Nope. The paragraph that gives Tech+ their HF access is unchanged. Look at
the appendix. It shows what paragraphs they are planning to change and what
the projected wording is. The Tech+ paragraph is untouched and left to
stand as is.

The lang is badly worded, and frankly I suspect ones reading depends on
wether you look at rules in the light all not forbidden is allowed or
all not expressly allowed is forbidden


Nope. It is very clear on which paragraphs they propose to change and what
the proposed wording is. The paragraph that grants Tech+ the Novice HF
privileges has no changes proposed.

I hope (nearly said I trsut but though better of it) the FCC will make
that one point clear in the R&O


The problem with the NPRM is simply its extensive discussion, which does get
rather wordy but is explicit if one reads it. The revised paragraphs for
Part 97 listed at the end of the NPRM are quite clear.

I originally was confused too but comparing the new text to the old text
clarified the situation. That comparison put the lengthy discussion into
perspective and clarified it a great deal.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

John Smith wrote:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the
code, and there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the
plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

The FCC's logic says "YES!"

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of
tech, when there
does not exist any difference between the classes?

But there *does* exist a difference!

Techs who have passed a code test have some HF privileges
now - today - under current rules.

Techs who have not passed a code test have no HF privileges
now - today - under current rules.

The FCC makes it clear that they do not want any current
licensee to gain or lose privileges simply because of the
proposed changes.

Therefore, if the proposal is enacted, the two types of
Techs (code tested and non code tested) will continue to
exist, with the difference in privileges, even if there's
no longer a code test, and even after the last Tech Plus
expires, upgrades, or is renewed as Tech.

Often you see this kind of insanity when the gov't
becomes involved, you could argue that point, and there
are no more tech plus licenses being issued, you could
also argue that point.

It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy
all the requirements listed above.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech
plus was ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the
same HF allowances.

That would violate the principle of no additional privs without
the appropriate test, whoch the FCC repeatedly supports in the
NPRM document.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would
care to argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at this point, and the
argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue, it would
have to be argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of the feet...

You can argue it all you want. Comments don't close for weeks yet.

If anyone actually bothers to read the NPRM, they'll see that
FCC repeatedly mentions how easy it is for existing licensees
to get more privileges by passing only written tests. FCC also
mentions repeatedly how, if the NPRM is enacted, all nonExtras
will be able to get more privileges by taking a few written
tests. They even mention how many correct answers are needed.

FCC also repeatedly mentions their support for spectrum as an
incentive to upgrading, and how free upgrades act as a
disincentive.

Do you not like the idea of a VHF/UHF-only entry-level license,
with HF held out as an incentive for more *written* testing?

--

Just think - under the new system, all new hams will have access to all
of amateur VHF/UHF, all modes, and full authorized power.

Those who go on to General will have most HF privileges too, with small
parts of 4 HF bands reserved for Extras.

Be careful what you ask for - you may just get it.

N2EY:

I have consistently given the answers for the general ticket, I will
continue to do so, I have a study guide for general (put together by
another individual) the answers are in it, all one needs to do is dig them
out--they should have to work a bit for extra, one only needs study these
for an evening, two if they are slow, three if they are a "ma'roon" and go
to the examiner and get their ticket... it is a moot point for me... I
think the FCC changes are perfect as is...

John

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:36:42 -0700, N2EY wrote:

John Smith wrote:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the code, and
there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

The FCC's logic says "YES!"

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of tech, when
there
does not exist any difference between the classes?

But there *does* exist a difference!

Techs who have passed a code test have some HF privileges now - today -
under current rules.

Techs who have not passed a code test have no HF privileges now - today
- under current rules.

The FCC makes it clear that they do not want any current licensee to
gain or lose privileges simply because of the proposed changes.

Therefore, if the proposal is enacted, the two types of Techs (code
tested and non code tested) will continue to exist, with the difference
in privileges, even if there's no longer a code test, and even after the
last Tech Plus expires, upgrades, or is renewed as Tech.

Often you see this kind of insanity when the gov't becomes involved,
you could argue that point, and there are no more tech plus licenses
being issued, you could also argue that point.

It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy all the
requirements listed above.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech plus was
ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the same HF
allowances.

That would violate the principle of no additional privs without the
appropriate test, whoch the FCC repeatedly supports in the NPRM
document.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would care to
argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at
this point, and the argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue,
it would have to be argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of
the feet...

You can argue it all you want. Comments don't close for weeks yet.

If anyone actually bothers to read the NPRM, they'll see that FCC
repeatedly mentions how easy it is for existing licensees to get more
privileges by passing only written tests. FCC also mentions repeatedly
how, if the NPRM is enacted, all nonExtras will be able to get more
privileges by taking a few written tests. They even mention how many
correct answers are needed.

FCC also repeatedly mentions their support for spectrum as an incentive
to upgrading, and how free upgrades act as a disincentive.

Do you not like the idea of a VHF/UHF-only entry-level license, with HF
held out as an incentive for more *written* testing?

--

Just think - under the new system, all new hams will have access to all
of amateur VHF/UHF, all modes, and full authorized power.

Those who go on to General will have most HF privileges too, with small
parts of 4 HF bands reserved for Extras.

Be careful what you ask for - you may just get it.

.... all I was remarking on was the insanity which wrapped itself around
amateur radio, in the 60's-70's, and has maintained its' death grip, and
brought the hobby to its' knees and the sorry shape we find it in today.
The leaders we put our trust it have let us down severly, destruction has
happened "on their watch!" The correction necessary now is going to be
painful but we have only those to blame for it... and ourselves for
allowing it to happen without complaint or action...

I suspect this now has all taken a change for the better, we will be on an
upswing and we will only see younger guys in control from here on out. If
not, at least we are getting people who are capable with handling the
changes to get us up to speed in the second millenium (actually 3rd
millennium!!!: 0-1000 -- first millennium, 1000-2000 -- second
millennium, 2000-3000 -- third millennium) after 2000 years you'd think
people could handle changes better and quicker... ahhh, that isn't true
either, think if Jesus came back, stood before the multi-million dollar
churches and commanded, "Sell these structures and feed my people!"
They'd have him on a cross before the evening meal (and his last supper!)

John

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:06:58 -0700, John Smith wrote:

N2EY:

I have consistently given the answers for the general ticket, I will
continue to do so, I have a study guide for general (put together by
another individual) the answers are in it, all one needs to do is dig them
out--they should have to work a bit for extra, one only needs study these
for an evening, two if they are slow, three if they are a "ma'roon" and go
to the examiner and get their ticket... it is a moot point for me... I
think the FCC changes are perfect as is...

John

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:36:42 -0700, N2EY wrote:

John Smith wrote:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the code, and
there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

The FCC's logic says "YES!"

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of tech, when
there
does not exist any difference between the classes?

But there *does* exist a difference!

Techs who have passed a code test have some HF privileges now - today -
under current rules.

Techs who have not passed a code test have no HF privileges now - today
- under current rules.

The FCC makes it clear that they do not want any current licensee to
gain or lose privileges simply because of the proposed changes.

Therefore, if the proposal is enacted, the two types of Techs (code
tested and non code tested) will continue to exist, with the difference
in privileges, even if there's no longer a code test, and even after the
last Tech Plus expires, upgrades, or is renewed as Tech.

Often you see this kind of insanity when the gov't becomes involved,
you could argue that point, and there are no more tech plus licenses
being issued, you could also argue that point.

It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy all the
requirements listed above.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech plus was
ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the same HF
allowances.

That would violate the principle of no additional privs without the
appropriate test, whoch the FCC repeatedly supports in the NPRM
document.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would care to
argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at
this point, and the argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue,
it would have to be argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of
the feet...

You can argue it all you want. Comments don't close for weeks yet.

If anyone actually bothers to read the NPRM, they'll see that FCC
repeatedly mentions how easy it is for existing licensees to get more
privileges by passing only written tests. FCC also mentions repeatedly
how, if the NPRM is enacted, all nonExtras will be able to get more
privileges by taking a few written tests. They even mention how many
correct answers are needed.

FCC also repeatedly mentions their support for spectrum as an incentive
to upgrading, and how free upgrades act as a disincentive.

Do you not like the idea of a VHF/UHF-only entry-level license, with HF
held out as an incentive for more *written* testing?

--

Just think - under the new system, all new hams will have access to all
of amateur VHF/UHF, all modes, and full authorized power.

Those who go on to General will have most HF privileges too, with small
parts of 4 HF bands reserved for Extras.

Be careful what you ask for - you may just get it.

an old friend wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in

break

There is one loose end, though. I read the NPRM to say that Tech+ would
become closed, so that all new Techs would have to get element 3 to get on
HF, but others have read it that all Techs would get Tech+ privileges. Does
anyone know which is right?


I read it as techs all tech end up with what amounts to what was once
called tech plus,

It would be an odd thing if that were the case, Mark. The Tech Plus
gave limited HF access, and isn't being tested for any more anyways.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

If the only difference between NC tech, and tech+ is the code, and there
is is no longer a code test, would logic dictate that the plus'es can
still hold a greater privilege than a tech?

Now, why would logic dictate their being two classes of tech, when there
does not exist any difference between the classes? Often you see this
kind
of insanity when the gov't becomes involved, you could argue that point,
and there
are no more tech plus licenses being issued, you could also argue that
point.

However, I think just as valid an argument would be that tech plus was ok
for some HF, now there is no code, so tech is now ok for the same HF
allowances.

However, I don't think you are going to find many who would care to argue
this point, there just is not enough interest in amateur radio at this
point, and the
argument is something of a "time sensitive" issue, it would have to be
argued
quickly--or not at all. As precedence is won by the dragging of the
feet...

John


Well whatever one personally believes, the FCC has made their position
clear. The distinction between Tech and Tech+ will remain as it currently
is. No code Techs will not have HF unless they upgrade to General. The
Techs with code (Tech+) will have the limited Novice HF privileges unless
they upgrade to General.

Based on the tone of the FCC's discussion, their goal is to drive people to
upgrade. They discussed how upgrading is part of fulfilling the basis and
purpose of amateur radio (i.e. the self training part).

Also think of this. Long ago (and before my time in amateur radio), there
was so much bitterness over people losing privileges in one of the
restructurings that the FCC probably did not want to make that mistake
again. On the other hand, there's been so much hulabaloo about no automatic
upgrades that they didn't care to make a mistake by increasing anyone's
privileges.

Actually it does make a kind of sense though. This way, everyone will have
had to take at least two tests of some kind to get on HF. Besides most of
the Tech+ who were both currently active and wanted more privileges have
probably upgraded to General by now.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote


It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy
all the requirements listed above.


Of course it's insane.

"The Morse test is no longer required for operation below 30MHz. You can't
operate on HF because you've not passed a Morse test." By any measure, that
illogical.

Beep Beep
73, de Hans, K0HB

KXHB:

I wouldn't even think about allowing someone a radio, unless first they have
mastered the "African Message Drum", if all civilization is gone the drum is
what they will need to survive.

Much more logical than cw, you don't need a radio! Can make a drum out of a
hollow log and a skin off the neighbors cat!

John

"KXHB" wrote in message
nk.net...

wrote


It's not "insanity" at all. It's the only way to satisfy
all the requirements listed above.


Of course it's insane.

"The Morse test is no longer required for operation below 30MHz. You can't
operate on HF because you've not passed a Morse test." By any measure, that
illogical.

Beep Beep
73, de Hans, K0HB

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
KXHB:

I wouldn't even think about allowing someone a radio, unless first they
have
mastered the "African Message Drum", if all civilization is gone the drum
is
what they will need to survive.

Much more logical than cw, you don't need a radio! Can make a drum out of
a
hollow log and a skin off the neighbors cat!

John


And, uh, what'd you say *your* callsign was? I, uh, just didn't quite catch
it... I'm just asking because it's a generally noted condition of a few
major posters in this newsgroup, that if one is not an amateur radio
licensee (Len Anderson, for example) their opinions on the matter of amateur
radio are taken with a grain of salt.

If all civilization is gone, and you have a drum and a deaf person is
around, does it make a sound?

Kim W5TIT

"Kim" wrote


If all civilization is gone, and you have a drum and a deaf person is
around, does it make a sound?

Kim W5TIT


If a man is in the forest and says something, but there's no woman around to
hear it, is he still wrong?