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Michael:
Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium metal. What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a "troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those challenged in the knowledge of chemistry? John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be an immense problem. - Mike KB3EIA - |
John Smith wrote:
But, even hybrid vehicles are mostly a scam at this point, you are wearing out two different systems, maintaining them, with all the related use of energy to do so. And, this ignores the the manufacturing expenditure of energy which occurs in making the extra electrical components for the vehicle. And now in the case of a crash of a hybrid, the rescue workers not only have to worry about gasoline fire, but the possibably of being electrocuted. |
.... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!) contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ... John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote: Michael: Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium metal. What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a "troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those challenged in the knowledge of chemistry? John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be an immense problem. - Mike KB3EIA - |
John Smith wrote: ... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!) contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ... John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the trend line is up John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote: Michael: Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium metal. What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a "troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those challenged in the knowledge of chemistry? John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be an immense problem. - Mike KB3EIA - |
AOF:
Really? Well the "evolution line" they got going in the schools (to generate a basis for removing our "inalienable rights granted by our creator") states this as proof we evolved from the sea--now you are here to take on that argument huh? Well, BULLY! for you! Time someone did... John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: John Smith wrote: ... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!) contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ... John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the trend line is up John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote: Michael: Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium metal. What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a "troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those challenged in the knowledge of chemistry? John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be an immense problem. - Mike KB3EIA - |
AOF:
Never mind, someone got a head start on you: http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea...9/i2/blood.asp John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: John Smith wrote: ... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!) contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ... John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the trend line is up John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote: Michael: Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium metal. What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a "troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those challenged in the knowledge of chemistry? John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be an immense problem. - Mike KB3EIA - |
AOF:
Hmmm, challenges to "false knowledge" from yesterday and new knowledge sometimes come from unexpected sources, I stand corrected... you will have me paying a bit more attention to your words and much less to your spelling and imperfect grammar from this point forth! Thank you, I had honestly picked that "knowledge" up and had helped perpetrate that myth for years! I am guilty of the crime! I will now spend the rest of my life fighting that falsehood in an attempt to repent... John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: John Smith wrote: ... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!) contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ... John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the trend line is up John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote: Michael: Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium metal. What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a "troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those challenged in the knowledge of chemistry? John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be an immense problem. - Mike KB3EIA - |
John Smith wrote: AOF: Really? Well the "evolution line" they got going in the schools (to generate a basis for removing our "inalienable rights granted by our creator") states this as proof we evolved from the sea--now you are here to take on that argument huh? Well, BULLY! for you! Time someone did... Yea always been more evolved than some hanging arround here. but then I never realy saw the conflict between eveolution and even the Bible, In the bible they just step WAAAYYYY back and gives a big picture, Faith is faith, sicence is science John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: John Smith wrote: ... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!) contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ... John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the trend line is up John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote: Michael: Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium metal. What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a "troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those challenged in the knowledge of chemistry? John On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be an immense problem. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen? Mostly salt. And chlorine. As you mentioned in another post, sodium hydroxide. However I don't see that as a big problem. Either the electrolysis process can be made to not split the NaCl, or it can be recombined and the energy recovered. The main byproduct problem I see is that you'll have lots of salt. Hydrogen is seen as some sort of saving angel in the energy issue. Producing the hydrogen is a bit of a problem though. It takes a lot of energy to produce it. It has a pretty low volumetric energy density. Which means it is compressed and your fuel tank becomes a highpressure canister. Not only is the stuff flammable, like gasoline, but it's under high pressure. Two ways to go boom. But to the problem at hand, a somewhat practical method of producing H2 would be to electrolyze it, using Nuc power. The electrolysis plant would probably be set up near the ocean (let's not even talk of fresh water production - just ask the folks on the left coast about fresh water) So now we have an extraction plant that is powered by an unpopular power source, and has one big nasty polluting byproduct. Or we can use the other methods of generating H2. Of course, they cause as much pollution producing the fuel as if we just used the fuel in the first place. Maybe. There are all sorts of possible technologies to extract, transport and store hydrogen. For example, there's work being done to store the gas in metal hydrides. It could be extracted by using electricity made photovoltaically. Etc. The infrastructure would be interesting. The best looking way for hydride storage that I've heard of so far, is the replacement tank method. Interesting, and I suspect that teh real quick stop for fuel would become a thing of the past. Not with quick-connecting pipes. Leave it to the MEs. The big question is whether such processes can be made economically competitive. How much will a hydrogen car cost? How much will they cost to drive per mile? What are the maintenance costs? Maintenance would *probably* be improved. I suspect that engines would last longer, and be a lot cleaner to be around. Agreed! But the cost competitiveness problem still exists. The big problem is that there's probably no single magic long- term solution. Rather there are a bunch of small solutions that add up. Here's two favorites of mine: Imagine a tall (couple of hundred feet) hollow tower, in the desert. A vertical pipe, as it were, with holes around the bottom. Around its base is a large circular greenhouse whose roof slants toward the tower. When the sun is out, the air under the greenhouse roof is heated, and rises. This creates an artificial wind towards the tower. The warmed air goes up the tower, which contains a wind-driven generator. Works whether or not there is a breeze. The generator and its impeller are near ground level. Etc. Good process, and an old one. A lot of places in the middle east use those type of towers (usually lower) to bring cooling air into the house. The process also works for a limited amount of time after the sun goes down. The warm ground heats the air above it. The ground under the greenhouse roof can be farmed, if there's water available for irrigation. also There's a process called TDP (Thermal Depolymerization Process) that can supposedly break down various types of waste into fuel oil, gas and other usable products. For example, there's a pilot plant here in Philadelphia that takes sewage sludge (ugh) and breaks it down into a type of fuel oil, methane gas, water, and some other things that are usable as fertilizer. The result is also sterilized. If nothing else, it gets rid of the stuff! Which is a major problem today. Two birds, etc. Another plant in Carthage, MO, takes the waste from a turkey-processing plant and extracts oil, gas and some other products from it. The company claims that many other feedstocks can be used. Old tires, a chronic disposal problem, can allegedly be broken down into oil, gas, steel, fiberglass and carbon black. The process supposedly uses 15% of the product to run itself. hmm, not too bad... *IF* it really does what is claimed. That's the problem with a lot of new technologies: If they're for-real, the developers are very secretive about the actual process because they're afraid it will be stolen. If they're a scam, the developers are very secretive about the actual process because they're afraid it will be discovered to be a fake. Of course the above pilot plants produce fuel at the rate of a few hundred barrels a day. It's doubtful that either of the above will solve all our energy problems. It's also unclear as to whether they are economically feasible on a large scale. But if they are doable, they can sure help. In the case of TDP, a big part of the waste-disposal problem can be dealt with. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Not with quick-connecting pipes. Leave it to the MEs. I wonder if there will be self-tank exchange stations? 8^) No doubt it can be done. Self-closing snap-on connector for the hydrogen supply. Similar to what is used for compressed air. Very doable. The big question is whether such processes can be made economically competitive. Another plant in Carthage, MO, takes the waste from a turkey-processing plant and extracts oil, gas and some other products from it. The company claims that many other feedstocks can be used. Old tires, a chronic disposal problem, can allegedly be broken down into oil, gas, steel, fiberglass and carbon black. The process supposedly uses 15% of the product to run itself. hmm, not too bad... *IF* it really does what is claimed. That's the problem with a lot of new technologies: One of the biggest problems I see for many of these technologies is that they often don't have the scalability needed to provide fuel for many vehicles, let alone fuel the countries needs. If this plant went into serious production, it might run out of feedstock pretty quickly. That's where so many people miss the point, Mike. There's probably no single technology that will solve the "energy crisis". Too many people want a single magic silver bullet solution that will solve it all at once. Extremely unlikely. As you say, even if TDP works and is economically competitive, the limiting factor may be lack of raw material (imagine - not enough trash/waste to feed the plants!) The solution is almost certain to be a collection of good ideas and new technologies. TDP may be one piece, hydrogen another piece, geothermal, solar, wind, etc. Then there's conservation and increased efficiency - a penny saved really *is* a penny earned. For example, one of the biggest users of electricity in most homes is the refrigerator. Some new models use much less electricity per year than their earlier counterparts of the same size and features - to the point that replacing a 15-20 year old fridge with a new one may pay for itself in energy savings even if the old one was working fine. It's possible to build air conditioners of very high efficiency, but they cost more. However, using them means we don't have to build new power plants and new power lines, because the electrical system will have less peak load. (The peak load typically comes on an August afternoon - from all the AC units). Too many folks want one solution to solve 100% of the problem, without requiring them to change anything, be responsible, or worst of all have to think. A more realistic and mature approach is to find a number of solutions, each of which solves a piece of the problem. Say you find 10 solutions, each of which solves 10% of the problem. There you are. "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them" (*) I think that until the next big fuel comes along, we are going to enter an age of "niche" fuel production. That is okay, as long as we don't get involved in feedstock that might otherwise be food, ie corn/ethanol production. There are possible ethical considerations that will crop up in that case. All of engineering involves ethical considerations. Heck, all of *life* involves ethical considerations! Is it ethical to import a large percentage of something - anything - needed to keep a country's economy and way of life going? Particularly when such importation requires dealing with, and empowering, people whose values are very different from your own? -- Now someone will probably ask what any of this has to do with amateur radio policy. The answer is that we see the same sort of oversimplification of problems. We are told that the solution to all of amateur radio's problems is to get rid of the Morse Code test. When that fails to bring about a New Golden Age, then what? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
K=D8HB wrote: wrote But will most people carpool? Will they pay for public transit, wind farms, and higher-efficiency appliances? Will they live in walkable towns and cities rather than sprawling into suburbia where every trip requires a car? How much are Americans willing to reduce their consumption of energy to balance the equation? I just love you east-coast liberals with your "feel-good conservation village" notions. Minnesota is one of the most "liberal" places in the nation, Hans. Such societies exist (in Europe primarily) --- if you want to live in one, move there. I see. You get to determine what America should be like, not me. Why is that? Personally, I prefer my fuel-inefficient 6.0L 32-valve turbocharged engine to your "50mpg highway" wimp-mobile. "Any....fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction". (*) "Wimp-mobile", huh? Is your masculinity and maturity measured in horsepower, cubic inches displaced, and foot-pounds, Hans? Mine isn't. Since I'm willing to pay the price to run it, and enjoy the freedom it gives me, your "walkable towns" have zero appeal to me. *You* don't pay all of the price, Hans. All of us do. We pay it in pollution, we pay it in the trade deficit, and we pay it in having to deal with the folks who sell us the oil, and what they do with the oil money. Most of all, we pay for it in being dependent. Freedom? How much freedom exists when a nation's economy is at the mercy of imports? Nobody is saying that *you* would be forced to live in a "walkable town". Sometime back you bemoaned the lack of the community that you used to see in the radio store/club meeting/etc. I submit to you that the lack of community problem isn't limited to amateur radio, but has become a part of American life, and is driven in part by the detachment of people from the places they live, work, shop, etc. And that detachment is driven in part by overdependence on automotive transportation as opposed to walking, running, biking, etc. Sooner or later, of course, the democrats will again ascend to power an= d attemp to social-engineer such crapola into the law of the land, rather than inconvenience a few reindeer with drilling rigs in the neighborhood. Alaska doesn't have enough oil to end imports, Hans. It would be interesting to see your reaction if they wanted to drill for oil under one of your favorite Minnesota lakes. Or build a nuke plant on one, using the lake water for cooling. Or something similar. I seem to recall a quote from Vonnegut about "they were too damn cheap" or some such. Cheapness involves more than not spending money. 73 de Jim, N2EY (*) - attributed to Albert Einstein |
wrote It would be interesting to see your reaction if they wanted to drill for oil under one of your favorite Minnesota lakes. Or build a nuke plant on one, using the lake water for cooling. Or something similar. We have 15,121 lakes in Minnesota (don't believe the "10,000 Lakes" motto on my license plates). Who'd miss a few? I submit to you that the lack of community problem isn't limited to amateur radio, but has become a part of American life, and is driven in part by the detachment of people from the places they live, work, shop, etc. And that detachment is driven in part by overdependence on automotive transportation as opposed to walking, running, biking, etc. Your east-coast roots are showing. Take a view of Minnesota from 30,000 feet and measure the distance across the wheat fields, forests, and lakes.... *You* don't pay all of the price, Hans. Please pass your account information to my banker so that your monthly share can be automatically paid. "My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes." (*) Beep beep de Hans, K0HB (*) Attributed to Ford Prefect I seem to recall a quote from Vonnegut about "they were too damn cheap" or some such. Cheapness involves more than not spending money. 73 de Jim, N2EY (*) - attributed to Albert Einstein |
N2EY:
If EVERYONE where to change the light-bulbs in their homes with the new LED bulbs, that single action would make one heck of a difference in the usage of power! If all business did this too, would probably postpone the whole energy crisis for a little bit longer... John On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:07:24 -0700, N2EY wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: wrote: Not with quick-connecting pipes. Leave it to the MEs. I wonder if there will be self-tank exchange stations? 8^) No doubt it can be done. Self-closing snap-on connector for the hydrogen supply. Similar to what is used for compressed air. Very doable. The big question is whether such processes can be made economically competitive. Another plant in Carthage, MO, takes the waste from a turkey-processing plant and extracts oil, gas and some other products from it. The company claims that many other feedstocks can be used. Old tires, a chronic disposal problem, can allegedly be broken down into oil, gas, steel, fiberglass and carbon black. The process supposedly uses 15% of the product to run itself. hmm, not too bad... *IF* it really does what is claimed. That's the problem with a lot of new technologies: One of the biggest problems I see for many of these technologies is that they often don't have the scalability needed to provide fuel for many vehicles, let alone fuel the countries needs. If this plant went into serious production, it might run out of feedstock pretty quickly. That's where so many people miss the point, Mike. There's probably no single technology that will solve the "energy crisis". Too many people want a single magic silver bullet solution that will solve it all at once. Extremely unlikely. As you say, even if TDP works and is economically competitive, the limiting factor may be lack of raw material (imagine - not enough trash/waste to feed the plants!) The solution is almost certain to be a collection of good ideas and new technologies. TDP may be one piece, hydrogen another piece, geothermal, solar, wind, etc. Then there's conservation and increased efficiency - a penny saved really *is* a penny earned. For example, one of the biggest users of electricity in most homes is the refrigerator. Some new models use much less electricity per year than their earlier counterparts of the same size and features - to the point that replacing a 15-20 year old fridge with a new one may pay for itself in energy savings even if the old one was working fine. It's possible to build air conditioners of very high efficiency, but they cost more. However, using them means we don't have to build new power plants and new power lines, because the electrical system will have less peak load. (The peak load typically comes on an August afternoon - from all the AC units). Too many folks want one solution to solve 100% of the problem, without requiring them to change anything, be responsible, or worst of all have to think. A more realistic and mature approach is to find a number of solutions, each of which solves a piece of the problem. Say you find 10 solutions, each of which solves 10% of the problem. There you are. "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them" (*) I think that until the next big fuel comes along, we are going to enter an age of "niche" fuel production. That is okay, as long as we don't get involved in feedstock that might otherwise be food, ie corn/ethanol production. There are possible ethical considerations that will crop up in that case. All of engineering involves ethical considerations. Heck, all of *life* involves ethical considerations! Is it ethical to import a large percentage of something - anything - needed to keep a country's economy and way of life going? Particularly when such importation requires dealing with, and empowering, people whose values are very different from your own? -- Now someone will probably ask what any of this has to do with amateur radio policy. The answer is that we see the same sort of oversimplification of problems. We are told that the solution to all of amateur radio's problems is to get rid of the Morse Code test. When that fails to bring about a New Golden Age, then what? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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wrote Is it ethical to import a large percentage of something - anything - needed to keep a country's economy and way of life going? Particularly when such importation requires dealing with, and empowering, people whose values are very different from your own? My state grows no oranges, and must import them from Florida, home of the hanging chad and other values not compatible with "Minnesota nice". Is it ethical to drink orange juice in Minnesota? Or maybe ethics hasn't a damned thing to do with it. I like citrus products, and I'll buy from whoever sells them at a price I'm willing to pay. Meanwhile we grow some damned good corn, wheat, and soybeans here on the prairie. We'll be happy to sell it to whoever meets the going price, regardless if their "values are very different" from ours. Beep beep de Hans, K0HB |
.... it is the "Control Freak Mentality." Once an individual adopts it, seems to become a way of life, as addictive as heroin too, it seems... Manipulation of sovereign nations seems to be in vogue these days... if their ideas are just different, no problem. If they plan on enslaving, depriving citizens of freedom, "poverty-izing" people, killing people, BIG PROBLEM! John On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:34:19 +0000, KØHB wrote: wrote Is it ethical to import a large percentage of something - anything - needed to keep a country's economy and way of life going? Particularly when such importation requires dealing with, and empowering, people whose values are very different from your own? My state grows no oranges, and must import them from Florida, home of the hanging chad and other values not compatible with "Minnesota nice". Is it ethical to drink orange juice in Minnesota? Or maybe ethics hasn't a damned thing to do with it. I like citrus products, and I'll buy from whoever sells them at a price I'm willing to pay. Meanwhile we grow some damned good corn, wheat, and soybeans here on the prairie. We'll be happy to sell it to whoever meets the going price, regardless if their "values are very different" from ours. Beep beep de Hans, K0HB |
K=D8HB wrote:
wrote Is it ethical to import a large percentage of something - anything - needed to keep a country's economy and way of life going? Particularly when such importation requires dealing with, and empowering, people whose values are very different from your own? My state grows no oranges, and must import them from Florida, home of the hanging chad and other values not compatible with "Minnesota nice". Is it ethical to drink orange juice in Minnesota? That depends. Are Minnesota and Florida different sovereign countries? Does Minnesota's economy and way of life rely heavily on imported Florida orange juice to keep going? I thought of mentioning California as an alternative source of citrus beverage, but the reply to that is obvious... Or maybe ethics hasn't a damned thing to do with it. Ethics has everything to do with it. I like citrus products, and I'll buy from whoever sells them at a price I'm willing to pay. So if, say, North Korea was selling citrus products (yes, I know they don't grow any, but it's the principle of the thing), and the money was going straight to helping that dictatorship build nuclear weapons, you'd have no problems dealing with them? Meanwhile we grow some damned good corn, wheat, and soybeans here on the prairie.= We'll be happy to sell it to whoever meets the going price, regardless if their "values are very different" from ours. So if Osama BL wants some, and can pay the price, you'll sell to him? --- Back in the late 1930s and very early 1940s, Japan was aggressively taking over Manchuria and northern China. (see "rape of Nanking" et al) The USA was selling all sorts of stuff to Japan at the time - electronics, oil, steel, aluminum, etc. They paid good prices and paid in hard currency. It became clear over time that at least some of those exports were supplying the Japanese military expansion. So FDR & Co. moved to cut off those exports - because of what Japan was doing with them. Was that an unethical thing to do? Or should the USA have continued to sell Japan whatever they wanted, as much as they wanted, regardless of what was done with it? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
N2EY:
Isn't it interesting that the feds walk all over states rights? In california we voted to legalize marijuana (under some condition, i.e. medical use) the feds seem to think we can't. Since we adopted the law all we have are fewer lawyers ripping off marijuana users, fewer marijuana users in jail and less wasted time by law enforcement in peeking over fences attempt to catch them in commission of a "crime" (the crime being growing, smoking--and no, I don't smoke marijuana--but did when I was a teenager for a bit.) Now the feds are back busting people and wanting to make the california law enforcement help them... insane... if the feds wanna bust 'em, let some other state(s) pay for all of it! John On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:47:50 -0700, N2EY wrote: KØHB wrote: wrote Is it ethical to import a large percentage of something - anything - needed to keep a country's economy and way of life going? Particularly when such importation requires dealing with, and empowering, people whose values are very different from your own? My state grows no oranges, and must import them from Florida, home of the hanging chad and other values not compatible with "Minnesota nice". Is it ethical to drink orange juice in Minnesota? That depends. Are Minnesota and Florida different sovereign countries? Does Minnesota's economy and way of life rely heavily on imported Florida orange juice to keep going? I thought of mentioning California as an alternative source of citrus beverage, but the reply to that is obvious... Or maybe ethics hasn't a damned thing to do with it. Ethics has everything to do with it. I like citrus products, and I'll buy from whoever sells them at a price I'm willing to pay. So if, say, North Korea was selling citrus products (yes, I know they don't grow any, but it's the principle of the thing), and the money was going straight to helping that dictatorship build nuclear weapons, you'd have no problems dealing with them? Meanwhile we grow some damned good corn, wheat, and soybeans here on the prairie. We'll be happy to sell it to whoever meets the going price, regardless if their "values are very different" from ours. So if Osama BL wants some, and can pay the price, you'll sell to him? --- Back in the late 1930s and very early 1940s, Japan was aggressively taking over Manchuria and northern China. (see "rape of Nanking" et al) The USA was selling all sorts of stuff to Japan at the time - electronics, oil, steel, aluminum, etc. They paid good prices and paid in hard currency. It became clear over time that at least some of those exports were supplying the Japanese military expansion. So FDR & Co. moved to cut off those exports - because of what Japan was doing with them. Was that an unethical thing to do? Or should the USA have continued to sell Japan whatever they wanted, as much as they wanted, regardless of what was done with it? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
N2EY:
.... I should have mentioned, "I did inhale too." Clinton didn't know what he was missing... but, a beer is much better! John On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:10:47 -0700, John Smith wrote: N2EY: Isn't it interesting that the feds walk all over states rights? In california we voted to legalize marijuana (under some condition, i.e. medical use) the feds seem to think we can't. Since we adopted the law all we have are fewer lawyers ripping off marijuana users, fewer marijuana users in jail and less wasted time by law enforcement in peeking over fences attempt to catch them in commission of a "crime" (the crime being growing, smoking--and no, I don't smoke marijuana--but did when I was a teenager for a bit.) Now the feds are back busting people and wanting to make the california law enforcement help them... insane... if the feds wanna bust 'em, let some other state(s) pay for all of it! John On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:47:50 -0700, N2EY wrote: KØHB wrote: wrote Is it ethical to import a large percentage of something - anything - needed to keep a country's economy and way of life going? Particularly when such importation requires dealing with, and empowering, people whose values are very different from your own? My state grows no oranges, and must import them from Florida, home of the hanging chad and other values not compatible with "Minnesota nice". Is it ethical to drink orange juice in Minnesota? That depends. Are Minnesota and Florida different sovereign countries? Does Minnesota's economy and way of life rely heavily on imported Florida orange juice to keep going? I thought of mentioning California as an alternative source of citrus beverage, but the reply to that is obvious... Or maybe ethics hasn't a damned thing to do with it. Ethics has everything to do with it. I like citrus products, and I'll buy from whoever sells them at a price I'm willing to pay. So if, say, North Korea was selling citrus products (yes, I know they don't grow any, but it's the principle of the thing), and the money was going straight to helping that dictatorship build nuclear weapons, you'd have no problems dealing with them? Meanwhile we grow some damned good corn, wheat, and soybeans here on the prairie. We'll be happy to sell it to whoever meets the going price, regardless if their "values are very different" from ours. So if Osama BL wants some, and can pay the price, you'll sell to him? --- Back in the late 1930s and very early 1940s, Japan was aggressively taking over Manchuria and northern China. (see "rape of Nanking" et al) The USA was selling all sorts of stuff to Japan at the time - electronics, oil, steel, aluminum, etc. They paid good prices and paid in hard currency. It became clear over time that at least some of those exports were supplying the Japanese military expansion. So FDR & Co. moved to cut off those exports - because of what Japan was doing with them. Was that an unethical thing to do? Or should the USA have continued to sell Japan whatever they wanted, as much as they wanted, regardless of what was done with it? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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