|
This product any good?
No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far
as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:46:45 -0400, Zombie Wolf wrote:
No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. Where did you get that notion? DC ground and RF ground are two completely different attributes. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
Uh, i "got that notion" from every single book on the subject, i own, from
about 30 years of antenna experimenting, winding my own baluns, building my own beam, vertical, loop, and horizontal dipole, zepp, and other antennas. I might ask YOU where YOU got the notion that "RF ground and DC ground are two seperate things". They most certainly are not. ground, my friend, is ground, period. if you are going to ground the signal element of an antenna, you are going to either get nothing for a signal, or a highly reduced signal, depending on just how long your ground path is. ground is a funny thing at RF, and it becomes progressively more difficult to get a good one as the frequenncy becomes higher. Yes, there have been antennas that were buried in the ground, but that would refer to antennas that operate in frequency ranges so low that it would have little or nothing to do with scanners ! (when was the last time you listened to 160 meters on YOUR scanner) ? I get extremely tired of being second guessed by people who *** think *** they know something, and know almost nothing about the subject under discussion, and like to adopt an opposing, diametrically opposed view point on almost everthing, like yourself, simply for the sake of being "different", and stirring up trouble basically. I dont know where you studied antenna theory , but what you had to say here is seriously "out to lunch". I am certain that Bill Orr would be glad to argue with someone like you, he was the author of quite a few thick tomes on this subject, and was world famous. I wont waste the time on you. Sorry. Life is far too short to waste on this. ground is ground. anyone who knows anything knows at least that. "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:46:45 -0400, Zombie Wolf wrote: No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. Where did you get that notion? DC ground and RF ground are two completely different attributes. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
Zombie Wolf wrote: Uh, i "got that notion" from every single book on the subject, i own, from about 30 years of antenna experimenting, winding my own baluns, building my own beam, vertical, loop, and horizontal dipole, zepp, and other antennas. I might ask YOU where YOU got the notion that "RF ground and DC ground are two seperate things". They most certainly are not. ground, my friend, is ground, period. if you are going to ground the signal element of an antenna, Hardly true at all. The antennas that I use here on HF are all directly grounded at the matching transformer. I could take you out back and we could run the meter between the antenna itself and the ground rod and you would find it to be a direct short. That's a DC ground, not an RF ground. Then I could take you inside and have you try to tell me that reception was reduced. LOL you are going to either get nothing for a signal, or a highly reduced signal, depending on just how long your ground path is. ground is a funny thing at RF, and it becomes progressively more difficult to get a good one as the frequenncy becomes higher. Yes, there have been antennas that were buried in the ground, but that would refer to antennas that operate in frequency ranges so low that it would have little or nothing to do with scanners ! (when was the last time you listened to 160 meters on YOUR scanner) ? I get extremely tired of being second guessed by people who *** think *** they know something, and know almost nothing about the subject under discussion, and like to adopt an opposing, diametrically opposed view point on almost everthing, like yourself, simply for the sake of being "different", and stirring up trouble basically. I dont know where you studied antenna theory , but what you had to say here is seriously "out to lunch". I am certain that Bill Orr would be glad to argue with someone like you, he was the author of quite a few thick tomes on this subject, and was world famous. I wont waste the time on you. Sorry. Life is far too short to waste on this. ground is ground. anyone who knows anything knows at least that. "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:46:45 -0400, Zombie Wolf wrote: No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. Where did you get that notion? DC ground and RF ground are two completely different attributes. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
Zombie Wolf wrote: Uh, i "got that notion" from every single book on the subject, i own, from about 30 years of antenna experimenting, winding my own baluns, building my own beam, vertical, loop, and horizontal dipole, zepp, and other antennas. I might ask YOU where YOU got the notion that "RF ground and DC ground are two seperate things". They most certainly are not. ground, my friend, is ground, period. if you are going to ground the signal element of an antenna, you are going to either get nothing for a signal, or a highly reduced signal, depending on just how long your ground path is. ground is a funny thing at RF, and it becomes progressively more difficult to get a good one as the frequenncy becomes higher. Yes, there have been antennas that were buried in the ground, but that would refer to antennas that operate in frequency ranges so low that it would have little or nothing to do with scanners ! (when was the last time you listened to 160 meters on YOUR scanner) ? I get extremely tired of being second guessed by people who *** think *** they know something, and know almost nothing about the subject under discussion, and like to adopt an opposing, diametrically opposed view point on almost everthing, like yourself, simply for the sake of being "different", and stirring up trouble basically. I dont know where you studied antenna theory , but what you had to say here is seriously "out to lunch". I am certain that Bill Orr would be glad to argue with someone like you, he was the author of quite a few thick tomes on this subject, and was world famous. I wont waste the time on you. Sorry. Life is far too short to waste on this. ground is ground. anyone who knows anything knows at least that. Yes, life is to short to waste explaining to someone who thinks he 'knows it all' the difference between RF and DC ground. Get back to us when you finally pass 'Antenna School'. "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:46:45 -0400, Zombie Wolf wrote: No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. Where did you get that notion? DC ground and RF ground are two completely different attributes. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
You know, the key word here is "matching transformer". Obviously, you dont
get the fact that the "matching transformer" may isolate these from ground at RF , but that does not mean that RF ground is a different entity electrically from standard ground. so you have a balun or tuned circuit in place. big deal. many antennas use this arrangement, since they have to radiate from all the elements. (there are no "grounded" elements.) I think it's about time you bought a few books on the subject, since anyone with any experience can see that you are operating from "assumptions" rather than hard info. I have an antenna tuner as well, but i dont make assumptions and draw conclusions concerning its functioning, the way you have. the tuner does nothing to "change the nature of ground", my friend. It simply BLOCKS the antenna from being grounded in a reactive sense..... and from this reactive isolation, you have drawn the conclusion that there is some nebulous "RF ground" that is completely different from "earth" ground. I can assure you that this is not the case. "-=jd=-" wrote in message ... Dateline "rec.radio.scanner", Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:20:05 GMT: As it appeared in message-ID# , N8KDV appears to have written the following... Zombie Wolf wrote: Uh, i "got that notion" from every single book on the subject, i own, from about 30 years of antenna experimenting, winding my own baluns, building my own beam, vertical, loop, and horizontal dipole, zepp, and other antennas. I might ask YOU where YOU got the notion that "RF ground and DC ground are two seperate things". They most certainly are not. ground, my friend, is ground, period. if you are going to ground the signal element of an antenna, Hardly true at all. The antennas that I use here on HF are all directly grounded at the matching transformer. I could take you out back and we could run the meter between the antenna itself and the ground rod and you would find it to be a direct short. That's a DC ground, not an RF ground. Then I could take you inside and have you try to tell me that reception was reduced. LOL That was one of the first things I noticed when I built that 9:1 impedance matcher from the hard-core-dx site. the transformer grounds to the coax shield which, in turn, connects to a grounding block (mounted on a ground-rod) on the way to the receiver. You will find there is continuity between the shield and the ground, as well as between the center conductor and ground. The effect it appears to have with my ears is a reduction in noise which lends the appearance of a stronger signal. DC ground... RF Ground... I don't really care - I just know that I seem to get more than enough of the "good" RF to my radio inspite of an available ground right in the middle of the feed path. -=jd=- -- I presume to know nothing - I merely speak from experience. My Current Disposable Email: (Remove YOUR HAT to reply directly) |
Zombie Wolf wrote: You know, the key word here is "matching transformer". Obviously, you dont get the fact that the "matching transformer" may isolate these from ground at RF , but that does not mean that RF ground is a different entity electrically from standard ground. so you have a balun or tuned circuit in place. big deal. many antennas use this arrangement, since they have to radiate from all the elements. (there are no "grounded" elements.) I think it's about time you bought a few books on the subject, since anyone with any experience can see that you are operating from "assumptions" rather than hard info. I have an antenna tuner as well, but i dont make assumptions and draw conclusions concerning its functioning, the way you have. the tuner does nothing to "change the nature of ground", my friend. It simply BLOCKS the antenna from being grounded in a reactive sense..... and from this reactive isolation, you have drawn the conclusion that there is some nebulous "RF ground" that is completely different from "earth" ground. I can assure you that this is not the case. But wait, you stated that if the antenna element was grounded it would not work... "-=jd=-" wrote in message ... Dateline "rec.radio.scanner", Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:20:05 GMT: As it appeared in message-ID# , N8KDV appears to have written the following... Zombie Wolf wrote: Uh, i "got that notion" from every single book on the subject, i own, from about 30 years of antenna experimenting, winding my own baluns, building my own beam, vertical, loop, and horizontal dipole, zepp, and other antennas. I might ask YOU where YOU got the notion that "RF ground and DC ground are two seperate things". They most certainly are not. ground, my friend, is ground, period. if you are going to ground the signal element of an antenna, Hardly true at all. The antennas that I use here on HF are all directly grounded at the matching transformer. I could take you out back and we could run the meter between the antenna itself and the ground rod and you would find it to be a direct short. That's a DC ground, not an RF ground. Then I could take you inside and have you try to tell me that reception was reduced. LOL That was one of the first things I noticed when I built that 9:1 impedance matcher from the hard-core-dx site. the transformer grounds to the coax shield which, in turn, connects to a grounding block (mounted on a ground-rod) on the way to the receiver. You will find there is continuity between the shield and the ground, as well as between the center conductor and ground. The effect it appears to have with my ears is a reduction in noise which lends the appearance of a stronger signal. DC ground... RF Ground... I don't really care - I just know that I seem to get more than enough of the "good" RF to my radio inspite of an available ground right in the middle of the feed path. -=jd=- -- I presume to know nothing - I merely speak from experience. My Current Disposable Email: (Remove YOUR HAT to reply directly) |
May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at DC
ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight" construction come to mind as I type. As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield and the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from the antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary to provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing one. The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a bleed off path. No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
You can take exception all you want, but if you study any antenna design you
will find that it either has grounded elements, and the active element is not grounded, or it has some kind of reactive isolation of the active element from ground. the antenna simply cannot function unless one of these conditions exist. period. "Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message ... May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at DC ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight" construction come to mind as I type. As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield and the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from the antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary to provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing one. The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a bleed off path. No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
byt he way, what do you think this "counterpoise" IS ?
As far as common mode noise, i was not referring to common mode noise. I was referring to noise that penetrates the un-grounded shield , which is about as effective as a shield when not grounded as wet toilet paper. All this info was well known and written about 50 years ago . Where have you been ? Now, the fact is, when you ground the antenna pipe , on a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vetical antenna , you usually ground the shield of the coax also , since the GROUND radials on these antennas are designed to be hooked up to GROUND. They therefore are usually made so that these ground radials have a connection directly to the anntenna mount where is clamps to the pipe, in order to facilitate this grounding. I cant believe i have to keep explaining this stuff , that any NOVICE had to know a few years back, to you people. Your wonderful "j-pole" does NOT operate at ground, since it is a stub tuned antenna, and this is what provides the isolation for the active element, jesus , get a book and read it once in a while , will you, instead of spending all your time on here talking sheer idiocy ? "Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message ... May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at DC ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight" construction come to mind as I type. As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield and the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from the antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary to provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing one. The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a bleed off path. No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
What next , hambrecht ? Are we going to discuss rhombics ? and what would
that have to do with the average scanner user, that uses a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vertical for an antenna ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So far, we have heard from people about their "hf wire antennas", we have heard from you about "plumbers delight" beams (which , by the way still need a matching system ) , and we have now heard this "the antenna is directly grounded" nonsense from you, all over again. Long wires ? I was probably running one when you were still in diapers.... By the way, i never said the shield on the coax "contributes to the noise". that is not what i said. I said, for all practical purposes, that if you dont ground the damned coax shield, then it electrically does NOT EXIST. Sure you have a ground on it in most cases , if it is hooked to the rig. the rig either has a three wire cord that provides a ground (not to mention the white lead in the ac cable, that is hooked to the same place), but you should have grounded the rig's chassis to ground yourself anyway, to shorten the ground path ! (you DID ground the rig, didnt you ?) What was that you say ? the rig runs off a 12-volt power supply, and there are only two leads to the rig, plus and minus ? then you better go out there and drive a ground rod ! because the CHASSIS Of THE RIG IS NOT GROUNDED ! (and neither is the shield on the coax ! ) It's an epiphany. Oops sorry about those 10-dollar words ! I got that bad habit by actually studying to GET MY LICENSE. No dick bash books around here..... quite a few Bill Orr, ARRL, Bill Cheek, etc... but no bash.. hmmm. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... byt he way, what do you think this "counterpoise" IS ? As far as common mode noise, i was not referring to common mode noise. I was referring to noise that penetrates the un-grounded shield , which is about as effective as a shield when not grounded as wet toilet paper. All this info was well known and written about 50 years ago . Where have you been ? Now, the fact is, when you ground the antenna pipe , on a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vetical antenna , you usually ground the shield of the coax also , since the GROUND radials on these antennas are designed to be hooked up to GROUND. They therefore are usually made so that these ground radials have a connection directly to the anntenna mount where is clamps to the pipe, in order to facilitate this grounding. I cant believe i have to keep explaining this stuff , that any NOVICE had to know a few years back, to you people. Your wonderful "j-pole" does NOT operate at ground, since it is a stub tuned antenna, and this is what provides the isolation for the active element, jesus , get a book and read it once in a while , will you, instead of spending all your time on here talking sheer idiocy ? "Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message ... May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at DC ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight" construction come to mind as I type. As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield and the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from the antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary to provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing one. The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a bleed off path. No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
Zombie Wolf wrote: What next , hambrecht ? Are we going to discuss rhombics ? and what would that have to do with the average scanner user, that uses a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vertical for an antenna ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So far, we have heard from people about their "hf wire antennas", we have heard from you about "plumbers delight" beams (which , by the way still need a matching system ) , and we have now heard this "the antenna is directly grounded" nonsense from you, all over again. Long wires ? I was probably running one when you were still in diapers.... By the way, i never said the shield on the coax "contributes to the noise". that is not what i said. I said, for all practical purposes, that if you dont ground the damned coax shield, then it electrically does NOT EXIST. Sure you have a ground on it in most cases , if it is hooked to the rig. the rig either has a three wire cord that provides a ground (not to mention the white lead in the ac cable, that is hooked to the same place), but you should have grounded the rig's chassis to ground yourself anyway, to shorten the ground path ! (you DID ground the rig, didnt you ?) What was that you say ? the rig runs off a 12-volt power supply, and there are only two leads to the rig, plus and minus ? then you better go out there and drive a ground rod ! because the CHASSIS Of THE RIG IS NOT GROUNDED ! (and neither is the shield on the coax ! ) It's an epiphany. Oops sorry about those 10-dollar words ! I got that bad habit by actually studying to GET MY LICENSE. Drivers license? No dick bash books around here..... quite a few Bill Orr, ARRL, Bill Cheek, etc... but no bash.. hmmm. I know I shouldn't feed the squirrels, but... All those books, all that education, and you still don't understand the simple concepts of DC ground and RF ground. Amazing, truly amazing. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... byt he way, what do you think this "counterpoise" IS ? As far as common mode noise, i was not referring to common mode noise. I was referring to noise that penetrates the un-grounded shield , which is about as effective as a shield when not grounded as wet toilet paper. All this info was well known and written about 50 years ago . Where have you been ? Now, the fact is, when you ground the antenna pipe , on a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vetical antenna , you usually ground the shield of the coax also , since the GROUND radials on these antennas are designed to be hooked up to GROUND. They therefore are usually made so that these ground radials have a connection directly to the anntenna mount where is clamps to the pipe, in order to facilitate this grounding. I cant believe i have to keep explaining this stuff , that any NOVICE had to know a few years back, to you people. Your wonderful "j-pole" does NOT operate at ground, since it is a stub tuned antenna, and this is what provides the isolation for the active element, jesus , get a book and read it once in a while , will you, instead of spending all your time on here talking sheer idiocy ? "Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message ... May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at DC ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight" construction come to mind as I type. As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield and the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from the antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary to provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing one. The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a bleed off path. No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
On 2 meters I use a copper J-pole. The entire antenna is soldered pipe and
any point can be measured to ground with an ohm meter and is at DC ground. The antenna is fed a few inches up from the bottom with the braid going to one point on the DC ground and the center lead to another point on the DC ground. The RF impedance is in the area of 50 Ohms. I have no earthly idea what you are referring to when you use the term "reactive isolation". Once any reactive element is brought into the equation, we have left the DC world. DC ground is included in no antenna equation I am familiar with, but I stand ready to be proven wrong. I reply not to be argumentative, but in the furtherance of knowledge. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... You can take exception all you want, but if you study any antenna design you will find that it either has grounded elements, and the active element is not grounded, or it has some kind of reactive isolation of the active element from ground. the antenna simply cannot function unless one of these conditions exist. period. "Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message ... May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at DC ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight" construction come to mind as I type. As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield and the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from the antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary to provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing one. The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a bleed off path. No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
Probably time to end this, as it seems to be turning personal on your part.
For Information purposes I have only been licensed since 1956, so you probably have been doing it longer than me. Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... What next , hambrecht ? Are we going to discuss rhombics ? and what would that have to do with the average scanner user, that uses a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vertical for an antenna ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So far, we have heard from people about their "hf wire antennas", we have heard from you about "plumbers delight" beams (which , by the way still need a matching system ) , and we have now heard this "the antenna is directly grounded" nonsense from you, all over again. Long wires ? I was probably running one when you were still in diapers.... By the way, i never said the shield on the coax "contributes to the noise". that is not what i said. I said, for all practical purposes, that if you dont ground the damned coax shield, then it electrically does NOT EXIST. Sure you have a ground on it in most cases , if it is hooked to the rig. the rig either has a three wire cord that provides a ground (not to mention the white lead in the ac cable, that is hooked to the same place), but you should have grounded the rig's chassis to ground yourself anyway, to shorten the ground path ! (you DID ground the rig, didnt you ?) What was that you say ? the rig runs off a 12-volt power supply, and there are only two leads to the rig, plus and minus ? then you better go out there and drive a ground rod ! because the CHASSIS Of THE RIG IS NOT GROUNDED ! (and neither is the shield on the coax ! ) It's an epiphany. Oops sorry about those 10-dollar words ! I got that bad habit by actually studying to GET MY LICENSE. No dick bash books around here..... quite a few Bill Orr, ARRL, Bill Cheek, etc... but no bash.. hmmm. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... byt he way, what do you think this "counterpoise" IS ? As far as common mode noise, i was not referring to common mode noise. I was referring to noise that penetrates the un-grounded shield , which is about as effective as a shield when not grounded as wet toilet paper. All this info was well known and written about 50 years ago . Where have you been ? Now, the fact is, when you ground the antenna pipe , on a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vetical antenna , you usually ground the shield of the coax also , since the GROUND radials on these antennas are designed to be hooked up to GROUND. They therefore are usually made so that these ground radials have a connection directly to the anntenna mount where is clamps to the pipe, in order to facilitate this grounding. I cant believe i have to keep explaining this stuff , that any NOVICE had to know a few years back, to you people. Your wonderful "j-pole" does NOT operate at ground, since it is a stub tuned antenna, and this is what provides the isolation for the active element, jesus , get a book and read it once in a while , will you, instead of spending all your time on here talking sheer idiocy ? "Dr. Fred Hambrecht Sr" wrote in message ... May I take exception with your statement? Many antennas are operated at DC ground. A J-pole, and any beam that is of "plumbers delight" construction come to mind as I type. As far as the shield contributing to noise, pure nonsense. If the shield and the center conductor are connected to the radio it has an RF ground from the antennas counterpoise. In the case of a long wire, a ground is necessary to provide a counterpoise. A ground rod does a very poor job of providing one. The main reason for a ground rod is lighting protection, and static a bleed off path. No grounding system in the world will remove common mode noise. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... No antenna is at DC ground, if it is going to function as an antenna. As far as static building up on the outer braid of coax, if you have your antenna firmly mounted to the pipe metal to metal, then grounding the pipe at the bottom is as close to "grounded" as you are going to get, and this will ground any "ground" radials that are not active elements of the antenna, and usually put the shield of the coax at ground, also. There is a more important reason to ground the antenna pipe, and thereby the shield of the coax. It keeps local electrical noise and interference from penetrating into the coax , and raising the noise and interference in the reciever. The signals you are trying to pick up on the scanner or radio are hundreds of times weaker than a lot of local noise is, and the noise will tend to over-ride the signal if this is not attended to. (the coax actually acts like an antenna when the shield is not at ground). This will tend to severely limit your hearing range on the radio , especially in locations that are rife with electrical noise , like in the city, near a factory, etc, etc, etc "Bob Parnass" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:37:52 -0700, Jason Wagner wrote: ... On the other hand, I do like the idea of having static build up on coax bled to ground. But does this product really work? Anyone using them? If you want to avoid building up a static charge on your antenna, use an antenna that is at "DC ground." Discones and Ventennas are not at DC ground. I have a few of the spark gap arrestors like those you cited. It takes a high voltage to jump the air gap inside them. Using a more sophisticated receiver protector with a gas cartridge will discharge the voltage to ground at a lower voltage level than an air gap and provide more protection. I use an older Alpha Delta Transi Trap on my shortwave receiver. It contains a replaceable gas plug. A newer version is show at http://www.alphadeltacom.com/tt3g50.html Disconnect your scanner from the antenna when not in use, especially during lightning season. -- ================================================== ======================= Bob Parnass, AJ9S GNU/Linux User http://parnass.com |
I see that Zombie Wolf is carrying on in the finest Bill Cheek
tradition here on r.r.s. Bill loved raunchy foul mouthed personal attacks and perpetrated them at every available opportunity (which was most of the time). I suspect he's up there somewhere in heaven rolling on the floor in laughter every time he reads a Zombie Wolf post. It's almost as if he never died. Bill would be so proud of Zombie Wolf. Now if the Zombie would just site some references instead of making groundless assertions, we could all have a good laugh. |
yep and then i can spend a month educating you , as well. I dont think
"damned" really falls into the category you are talking about since it is even allowed by the FCC , Emily Post. As far as Bill Cheek being proud of me, well, that would be a great honor. Unlike YOU, he actually knew somethng about the subject at hand ... wrote in message ... I see that Zombie Wolf is carrying on in the finest Bill Cheek tradition here on r.r.s. Bill loved raunchy foul mouthed personal attacks and perpetrated them at every available opportunity (which was most of the time). I suspect he's up there somewhere in heaven rolling on the floor in laughter every time he reads a Zombie Wolf post. It's almost as if he never died. Bill would be so proud of Zombie Wolf. Now if the Zombie would just site some references instead of making groundless assertions, we could all have a good laugh. |
Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some books
on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get "Building and using your own baluns" from them. That ought to keep you busy for at least the next millenimum. Then you can try a few Bill Orr books , just to round you out . since Bill Orr was quite a prolific (and knowledgable) writer and authority on just about any facet of radio, you have your work cut out for you there. Then you can pick up a few Bill Cheek volumes , (Another good solid source of info), if you are very lucky, and maybe his excellent newsletter, if you can find someone willing to part with theirs (I'm not). That about wraps it up for "references", pal. I have a lot more stuff, but for a beginner like you, these will provide a solid grounding (pun intended). I doubt you are going to grasp this stuff anytime in the near future, since if you didnt grasp the previous, simple to understand posts, it's unlikely that you are going to grasp the difference between balanced and unblanced lines , resonance vs non-resonant, smith charts, reactance, tuned circuits, velocity factors, the superhetrodyne reciever, Q factors, or about 300 other concepts that are about 14 stories over your head. But dont let it stop you from at least TRYING.... wrote in message ... I see that Zombie Wolf is carrying on in the finest Bill Cheek tradition here on r.r.s. Bill loved raunchy foul mouthed personal attacks and perpetrated them at every available opportunity (which was most of the time). I suspect he's up there somewhere in heaven rolling on the floor in laughter every time he reads a Zombie Wolf post. It's almost as if he never died. Bill would be so proud of Zombie Wolf. Now if the Zombie would just site some references instead of making groundless assertions, we could all have a good laugh. |
Having books and having comprehension are two different things. When asked
for a reference, one does not state a list of ARRL books. It is this writers experience that a person that responds with vitriolic messages and personal attacks has little else to substantiate an argument. Your understanding of DC and RF ground is rife with misinformation, your blustery comments to the contrary. Had you a real grasp on the subject, you would lead us neophytes down the path of understanding step by step. -- BroadBand ain't a woman's musical group... "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some books on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get |
Having books and having comprehension are two different things. When asked
for a reference, one does not state a list of ARRL books. It is this writers experience that a person that responds with vitriolic messages and personal attacks has little else to substantiate an argument. Your understanding of DC and RF ground is rife with misinformation, your blustery comments to the contrary. Had you a real grasp on the subject, you would lead us neophytes down the path of understanding step by step. -- BroadBand ain't a woman's musical group... "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some books on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get |
Balony. Where do you think information is gained ? And I am not going to
spend a month educating the likes of you. You are a simple agitator , nothing more. here is your reward ... 'PLONK' "w4jle" wrote in message ... Having books and having comprehension are two different things. When asked for a reference, one does not state a list of ARRL books. It is this writers experience that a person that responds with vitriolic messages and personal attacks has little else to substantiate an argument. Your understanding of DC and RF ground is rife with misinformation, your blustery comments to the contrary. Had you a real grasp on the subject, you would lead us neophytes down the path of understanding step by step. -- BroadBand ain't a woman's musical group... "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some books on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get |
I guess that is an admission on your part that you are totally misinformed.
You misspoke, be man enough to admit it and move on. "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... Balony. Where do you think information is gained ? And I am not going to spend a month educating the likes of you. You are a simple agitator , nothing more. here is your reward ... 'PLONK' "w4jle" wrote in message ... Having books and having comprehension are two different things. When asked for a reference, one does not state a list of ARRL books. It is this writers experience that a person that responds with vitriolic messages and personal attacks has little else to substantiate an argument. Your understanding of DC and RF ground is rife with misinformation, your blustery comments to the contrary. Had you a real grasp on the subject, you would lead us neophytes down the path of understanding step by step. -- BroadBand ain't a woman's musical group... "Zombie Wolf" wrote in message ... Now let's see- you want references to find this stuff ? well, buy some books on the subject ! You can start off with the ARRL Antenna handbook , then move on to the Vertical Antenna handbook (same source), then you can get |
w4jle ...
^ You misspoke, be man enough to admit it and move on. If he "misspoke" perhaps you could be "man enough" to drop it and move on. Frank |
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