A battle is brewing between the city of Wichita Falls and the local media
 

I agree. Police communications a private, as are all two way radio
communications. According to the Communications Act of 1934, personal or
monetary gain form the unauthorized reception of radio communications is
prohibited. The TV stations etc make money from reporting news events.

No it doesn't. Try walking around with a pistol in open view, while not
having a carry permit. The Constitution does not allow me to yell fire in a
theater (The classic argument). There is no 1st Amendment issue here.
Before there were scanners or tunable receivers in the police bands;
newspapers, radio and TV reporters made beat calls. They called the desk
Sergeant in each precinct and asked what's up? Or they camped out at the
precinct. They'll just have to go back to that method.

Here is an excerpt from the ECPA
(e) (i) intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose, to any other
person the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication,
intercepted by means authorized by sections 2511(2)(A)(ii), 2511(b)-(c),
2511(e), 2516, and 2518 of this subchapter, (ii) knowing or having reason to
know that the information was obtained through the interception of such a
communication in connection with a criminal investigation, (iii) having
obtained or received the information in connection with a criminal
investigation, and (iv) with intent to improperly obstruct, impede, or
interfere with a duly authorized criminal investigation, shall be punished
as provided in subsection (4) or shall be subject to suit as provided in
subsection (5).

Yeah, yeah. You'll argue that they are not interfering with an
investigation. That distinction is open to the officers at the scene. TV
cameras can incite riotous behavior.

Another excerpt
"(16) 'readily accessible to the
general public' means, with respect
to a radio communication, that such
communication is not---
"(A)scrambled or encrypted;
"(B)transmitted using modulation techniques whose essential parameters
have been withheld from the public with the intention of preserving the
privacy of such communication;....."

APCO P-25, DES, 3DES and other scrmabling techniques are not "readily"
available to the public; as conventional AM, FM or TV. Only to those that
seek them out or reverse engineer them. Reverse engineering is another
illegal activity.
The TV station might win or they might not. Remember what happened to the
couple that taped Newt Gingrich's cell phone call and then disclosed it?
Arrested, tried, fined.
SO take you purple finger and keep switching it from your a** to your mouth.
You'll figure it out.

Ok...here's a random thought for that media outlet...if anyone wants to
forward it to them...


Find out what type of system it is, and BUY RADIOS FOR THE SYSTEM. When
my city went encrypted, I went out and got a Motorola XTS3000 and
progged it for the local system. My radio worked just fine.

Must be a small market TV station if they didn't think of this.

wrote:
No it doesn't. Try walking around with a pistol in open view, while
not
having a carry permit. The Constitution does not allow me to yell
fire in a
theater (The classic argument). There is no 1st Amendment issue
here.
Before there were scanners or tunable receivers in the police bands;
newspapers, radio and TV reporters made beat calls. They called the
desk
Sergeant in each precinct and asked what's up? Or they camped out at
the
precinct. They'll just have to go back to that method.

Here is an excerpt from the ECPA
(e) (i) intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose, to any
other
person the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication,
intercepted by means authorized by sections 2511(2)(A)(ii),
2511(b)-(c),
2511(e), 2516, and 2518 of this subchapter, (ii) knowing or having
reason to
know that the information was obtained through the interception of
such a
communication in connection with a criminal investigation, (iii)
having
obtained or received the information in connection with a criminal
investigation, and (iv) with intent to improperly obstruct, impede,
or
interfere with a duly authorized criminal investigation, shall be
punished
as provided in subsection (4) or shall be subject to suit as provided
in
subsection (5).

Yeah, yeah. You'll argue that they are not interfering with an
investigation. That distinction is open to the officers at the
scene. TV
cameras can incite riotous behavior.

Another excerpt
"(16) 'readily accessible to the
general public' means, with respect
to a radio communication, that such
communication is not---
"(A)scrambled or encrypted;
"(B)transmitted using modulation techniques whose essential
parameters
have been withheld from the public with the intention of preserving
the
privacy of such communication;....."

APCO P-25, DES, 3DES and other scrmabling techniques are not
"readily"
available to the public; as conventional AM, FM or TV. Only to those
that
seek them out or reverse engineer them. Reverse engineering is
another
illegal activity.
The TV station might win or they might not. Remember what happened
to the
couple that taped Newt Gingrich's cell phone call and then disclosed
it?
Arrested, tried, fined.
SO take you purple finger and keep switching it from your a** to your
mouth.
You'll figure it out.

This is ENCRYPTED, not just digital audio. For encryption you have to have
the user's system encryption keys, which it isn't likely you'll get. If it
was as easy as you say, we'd all be monitoring the FBI, DEA, Secret Service,
etc.

M

wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok...here's a random thought for that media outlet...if anyone wants to
forward it to them...


Find out what type of system it is, and BUY RADIOS FOR THE SYSTEM. When
my city went encrypted, I went out and got a Motorola XTS3000 and
progged it for the local system. My radio worked just fine.

Must be a small market TV station if they didn't think of this.

wrote:
No it doesn't. Try walking around with a pistol in open view, while
not
having a carry permit. The Constitution does not allow me to yell
fire in a
theater (The classic argument). There is no 1st Amendment issue
here.
Before there were scanners or tunable receivers in the police bands;
newspapers, radio and TV reporters made beat calls. They called the
desk
Sergeant in each precinct and asked what's up? Or they camped out at
the
precinct. They'll just have to go back to that method.

Here is an excerpt from the ECPA
(e) (i) intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose, to any
other
person the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication,
intercepted by means authorized by sections 2511(2)(A)(ii),
2511(b)-(c),
2511(e), 2516, and 2518 of this subchapter, (ii) knowing or having
reason to
know that the information was obtained through the interception of
such a
communication in connection with a criminal investigation, (iii)
having
obtained or received the information in connection with a criminal
investigation, and (iv) with intent to improperly obstruct, impede,
or
interfere with a duly authorized criminal investigation, shall be
punished
as provided in subsection (4) or shall be subject to suit as provided
in
subsection (5).

Yeah, yeah. You'll argue that they are not interfering with an
investigation. That distinction is open to the officers at the
scene. TV
cameras can incite riotous behavior.

Another excerpt
"(16) 'readily accessible to the
general public' means, with respect
to a radio communication, that such
communication is not---
"(A)scrambled or encrypted;
"(B)transmitted using modulation techniques whose essential
parameters
have been withheld from the public with the intention of preserving
the
privacy of such communication;....."

APCO P-25, DES, 3DES and other scrmabling techniques are not
"readily"
available to the public; as conventional AM, FM or TV. Only to those
that
seek them out or reverse engineer them. Reverse engineering is
another
illegal activity.
The TV station might win or they might not. Remember what happened
to the
couple that taped Newt Gingrich's cell phone call and then disclosed
it?
Arrested, tried, fined.
SO take you purple finger and keep switching it from your a** to your
mouth.
You'll figure it out.

wrote:

APCO P-25, DES, 3DES and other scrmabling techniques are not "readily"
available to the public;

This is not true, they are. But this does not make it easier to obtain
the proper code to decrypt the messages :)



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt

wrote:

Find out what type of system it is, and BUY RADIOS FOR THE SYSTEM. When
my city went encrypted, I went out and got a Motorola XTS3000 and
progged it for the local system. My radio worked just fine.

I guess they went digital, but _not_ encrypted. The encryption is not
breakable without big efforts, or without knowing a guy who is illing
to give you the key.



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt

As for decrypting, i was told that there is a schematic in either
Popular Science, or Popular Mechanics that can be used to build such a
device, and can be built for somewhere around $100. I haven't found
this yet, but if/when i do, i'll post it, and ask anyone else to do the
same.

In article ,
Mark wrote:

As for decrypting true digital encrypted transmissions, I don't believe there
is such an animal since you NEED the key. Without it, you're just guessing.
Perhaps this box rambles through keys in a trial and error mode until it picks
up a signal? Depending on the key size, this could take countless years to
accomplish.

One thing to remeber is that cracking an encryption key in these fixed
key type systems, can be done with bruteforce technequecs with some ease.
Once the key has been found it is unlikely that it would be changed
as any new key would need to be programed into ALL units on the system.
Most of these PRS Systems don't use a Rolling Key Codes, as keeping
evveryone in sync is a major headache, and PITA.
Just get 50 CPU's clunking along on the same sample bitstream, and
when you get the key, don't let on to the systems folks that the
key is out.


Me cracked a pile of fixed keys over the years......

In message , Mark

As for decrypting true digital encrypted transmissions, I don't believe there
is such an animal since you NEED the key. Without it, you're just guessing.
Perhaps this box rambles through keys in a trial and error mode until it picks
up a signal? Depending on the key size, this could take countless years to
accomplish.

Try doing a google search on "police tetra in the UK."
British police have recently gone from analogue FM to encrypted digital
and are no longer receivable by scanner users.
Where Britain goes today the Americans follow!!
--
Bill

In message , Mark
writes
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:56:42 GMT, Bill wrote:

In message , Mark

As for decrypting true digital encrypted transmissions, I don't believe there
is such an animal since you NEED the key. Without it, you're just guessing.
Perhaps this box rambles through keys in a trial and error mode until
it picks
up a signal? Depending on the key size, this could take countless years to
accomplish.

Try doing a google search on "police tetra in the UK."
British police have recently gone from analogue FM to encrypted digital
and are no longer receivable by scanner users.
Where Britain goes today the Americans follow!!

That's because we're not fools. We let you do all the grunt work and
debugging for us. Why should we go through all that when you're willing?

Fair comment, slow down a bit though. Ours is far from debugged yet!
--
Bill

As for decrypting true digital encrypted transmissions, I don't
believe there
is such an animal since you NEED the key. Without it, you're just
guessing.
Perhaps this box rambles through keys in a trial and error mode until
it picks
up a signal? Depending on the key size, this could take countless
years to
accomplish.


Yes, I guess it's supposed to be some sort of number cruncher, scanning
when a digital encrypted signal is transmitted, which isn't very often.
There's not very many digital scanners in the county, like one or two,
so they don't really worry about encrypting unless it's a "major
operation". Maybe i misunderstood, he might have been telling me about
a box to decode not decrypt, saving me about $400 and using a normal
analog scanner?? I'll have to get ahold of him and clarify

In article ,
Mark wrote:

I would think that any encrypted system out there today is nearly impossible
to crack since it can only be done via brute force (ie - guessing) and the
compute power required just isn't accessible to nearly everyone. Even the 50
cpu example you cite, is insignificant if they use a 4096 key (which certainly
is not unreasonable).

very few voice encryption systems use more than a 128 bit key. with
bruteforce attack a 128 bit key is certainly doable with a 50 cpu
distributed attack. should take about two weeks......


Me been there, done that.......

In article ,
Mark wrote:

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:39:33 GMT, Me wrote:

very few voice encryption systems use more than a 128 bit key.

On what planet? I agree that 4096 may be a tad off, but 128 most certainly is
as well.

with
bruteforce attack a 128 bit key is certainly doable with a 50 cpu
distributed attack. should take about two weeks......
Me been there, done that.......

I seriously doubt you have access to 50 cpu's for a two week period and have
cracked any type of digital voice encryption ever. As a matter of fact, I'm
telling you that you're full of it.

But, if you are a good enough salesman, perhaps you'll convince some.

I wouldn't want to sell you on anything..... as I really don't care what
you think..... I am just stating the facts of the case at hand.....
Your mileage may vary...... but the facts of the case don't change just
because you seem to have a different opinion....... 50 cpu's are
readily available in most highschool computerlabs, and can be crunching
away on such problems 12 hours a day, and full time on weekends.......
this isn't "Rocket Science", it is just distributive computing, which
has been around for 10 years....... I take it you have never dealt with
digital vioce communications hardware, and keyloaders that set and load
the keys into those systems......if you had such experience, you would
know normal keylengths, and encryption systems that they use.......


Me

In article ,
Mark wrote:

I wouldn't want to sell you on anything..... as I really don't care what
you think.....

Obviously you do.

I am just stating the facts of the case at hand.....
Your mileage may vary...... but the facts of the case don't change just
because you seem to have a different opinion....... 50 cpu's are
readily available in most highschool computerlabs, and can be crunching
away on such problems 12 hours a day, and full time on weekends.......
this isn't "Rocket Science", it is just distributive computing, which
has been around for 10 years....... I take it you have never dealt with
digital vioce communications hardware, and keyloaders that set and load
the keys into those systems......if you had such experience, you would
know normal keylengths, and encryption systems that they use.......

As a salesman, you need to convince people how you have such a vast world of
experience in voice encryption, yet are either a high school student or work
in the computer lab at a high school.......

As you claim that distributed computing has been around for so long, you
should then also know that there are plenty of FREE web resources that allow
you to share cpu cycles from computers all over the world of people who feel
like contributing their unused cpu cycles to any one of a million causes.

Have fun. I am only more convinced that you've cracked no such thing. The
horse is dead, I'm done beating it.

No, I just have a lot more communications experience than you do. I
graduated from High School long before there were computers, let alone
conputerlabs in them. I am retired, and have been a Federal Agent, and
worked for the Feds in a communications technical advisory position.
Like I stated before, this isn't "Rocket Science", and these things have
all been done before. It doesn't require any new knowledge base, it
just requires an understanding of the system and a bit of computing
power. Mac G5 Dual 2.5Ghz boxes have enough computing power to do this
type of bruteforce cruching all by themselves. Yea, it would take a month
or two but that is not unreasonable, considering that it is a desktop
machine and running 2.0Gflop+.....and that assumes that the key is found
in the last half of the iteration and not the first half. That is a
50/50 proposition, in bruteforce key cracking. Also with some knowledge
of the guy who setup the key, one could reduce the job significantly,
because most of these guys aren't crypies and they don't pick totally
random keys seeds, which reduces the problem by a few orders of
magnitude.

Me

this isn't "Rocket Science", and these things have
all been done before. It doesn't require any new knowledge base, it
just requires an understanding of the system and a bit of computing
power. Mac G5 Dual 2.5Ghz boxes have enough computing power to do this

type of bruteforce cruching all by themselves.


If one were to use a computer, or range of computers, for crunching
128+ bit keys or even down to 64 bit, where could this software be
obtained? Aside from experimenting with digital voice encryption, I
have some other keys that I would like to try and crack (keys of my
own, not others), like a 802.11g system I just setup and want to test
for maximum key strength. Probing around the net for such things these
days can brand you a hacker in the eyes of the cyber cops, even if your
intentions are good.

"WSnipes" wrote:

If one were to use a computer, or range of computers, for crunching
128+ bit keys or even down to 64 bit, where could this software be
obtained?

Usually it is written by the uy who wants ro break the key :)

Aside from experimenting with digital voice encryption, I
have some other keys that I would like to try and crack (keys of my
own, not others), like a 802.11g system I just setup and want to test
for maximum key strength.

Aircrack for Windows? It cracked my own WEP key really fast.



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt

does anyone else here see what the real truth behind this move is all
about. the truth that yhey dont want you to know is that they would like
to go back to doing their "good ole boy" business as usual. keeping
officers safe? safe from repercussions of possibly being filmed or
overheard going about their routine business of beating the crap out of
alleged criminals. now for sure there will be enough time for every
officer that responds to get a couple of good licks in before the public
becomes aware. just how many settlements has the city of w. falls had to
dish out for incidents that were caught on tape, or overheard on regular
comm networks, or howmany have they nearly skirted away from. open
communications is one of the only safety checks that remains that keep the
police as an organization becoming from becoming the "secret police" is
this sounding familiar. police with no fear of being caught or documented
going about their oooooo dangerous jobs. forget about the courts, go to
the minority community, and the activists who champion for the civil
rights, and stir up the city council reps to call for a special vote so
the citizens affected can decide if the police they trust to protect them
or worth spending big technology bucks to hide their activities from these
same people who pay ther salary. and while their at it, call for the
recall of the chief, city manager, and mayor or any other official that
supports such an action against their own citizens

I guess that may be the truth, but since i'm not from W.Falls i
can't totally agree. Our S.O. moved to Astro P-25 to be compliant with
Homeland Security, as we border Canada, and to have an "extended" range
being able to cover the whole state with just one radio system. The
older analog system required many hours of phone time between counties.
Once this new one is all in place, an officer can contact another in a
county that is 500 miles away just by using his two-way and the proper
talk group ID. Plus, during an emergency, all county, state, and
federal agencies(within the state) can communicate w/out having to know
each other's cell numbers. Along with being digitally coded and
encrypted...and yes, it keeps out the rubbernecks as well. For the most
part, there are two reasons for going digital: Secure communications
using encoding(which scanners can now pick up) along with encryption(so
far hasn't been cracked, or atleast this info isn't being shared), and
to extend communication range.

does anyone else here see what the real truth behind this move is all
about. the truth that yhey dont want you to know is that they would
like
to go back to doing their "good ole boy" business as usual. keeping
officers safe? safe from repercussions of possibly being filmed or
overheard going about their routine business of beating the crap out
of
alleged criminals. now for sure there will be enough time for every
officer that responds to get a couple of good licks in before the
public
becomes aware.

In article om,
"WSnipes" wrote:

I guess that may be the truth, but since i'm not from W.Falls i
can't totally agree. Our S.O. moved to Astro P-25 to be compliant with
Homeland Security, as we border Canada, and to have an "extended" range
being able to cover the whole state with just one radio system. The
older analog system required many hours of phone time between counties.
Once this new one is all in place, an officer can contact another in a
county that is 500 miles away just by using his two-way and the proper
talk group ID. Plus, during an emergency, all county, state, and
federal agencies(within the state) can communicate w/out having to know
each other's cell numbers. Along with being digitally coded and
encrypted...and yes, it keeps out the rubbernecks as well. For the most
part, there are two reasons for going digital: Secure communications
using encoding(which scanners can now pick up) along with encryption(so
far hasn't been cracked, or atleast this info isn't being shared), and
to extend communication range.

One thing to consider when designing a system like the one above, is that
it depends entirely on common carriers to provide the interconnections
that support that wide area coverage. If you have a big disaster
(earthquake, supervolcano, or the like) that takes out your common
carrier links, by knocking all the microwave dish antennas out of
alignment, your really cool digital system DIES, BIGTIME, and no amount
of support is going to bring it back quickly, untill those links are
fixed. This is a couple of months worth of work for a State wide system.


Me been there, laughed at trying to do that....quickly....

Yes, that is true. In my statement though, i was relating to a security
breech or similar along the canada border, or other security factors,
not just natural disasters as you stated, but i see your point clearly.



One thing to consider when designing a system like the one above, is
that
it depends entirely on common carriers to provide the
interconnections
that support that wide area coverage. If you have a big disaster
(earthquake, supervolcano, or the like) that takes out your common
carrier links, by knocking all the microwave dish antennas out of
alignment, your really cool digital system DIES, BIGTIME, and no
amount
of support is going to bring it back quickly, untill those links are
fixed. This is a couple of months worth of work for a State wide
system.

Me wrote in
:

In article ,
Mark wrote:

I would think that any encrypted system out there today is nearly
impossible to crack since it can only be done via brute force (ie -
guessing) and the compute power required just isn't accessible to
nearly everyone. Even the 50 cpu example you cite, is insignificant
if they use a 4096 key (which certainly is not unreasonable).

very few voice encryption systems use more than a 128 bit key. with
bruteforce attack a 128 bit key is certainly doable with a 50 cpu
distributed attack. should take about two weeks......


Me been there, done that.......

You really don't know what you're talking about. The distributed.net
project just cracked a 64-bit encryption using hundreds of thousands of
computers over several years. You're not going to crack anything with 50
CPUs and two weeks.