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10-codes losing popularity
The wheel seems to be coming full circle: plain language is gaining
popularity over 10-codes in emergency communciations. The problem is that too many local 10-code dialects have developed over the years. They can cause misunderstandings when multiple agencies work together in a major incident. In my area of California the sheriff departments use 10-codes but the fire departments don't. I have no idea how long this state of affairs has prevailed, since I only got into the scanning hobby last summer. http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1...008975,00.html -- Paul Hirose To reply by email remove INVALID |
"Paul Hirose" wrote in message
ink.net... The wheel seems to be coming full circle: plain language is gaining popularity over 10-codes in emergency communciations. The problem is that too many local 10-code dialects have developed over the years. They can cause misunderstandings when multiple agencies work together in a major incident. In my area of California the sheriff departments use 10-codes but the fire departments don't. I have no idea how long this state of affairs has prevailed, since I only got into the scanning hobby last summer. http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1...008975,00.html -- Paul Hirose To reply by email remove INVALID Here - before "our" 911 system came on board - the 10 codes tended to vary among Police units like people's choice of colors of homes. It could be very confusing. As to the Fire Services, the city - so far as I know, barely uses them if at all. Here in the rural area, there are a very few 10-codes used by the fire departments, but they coincide with those used by the police where appropriate. Therefore - less confusion for the 911 center. The Phonetic Alphabet still creates some confusion. IF a cop has a brain freeze and calls off a letter such as "F" as "funny" or "friday" the 911 center will call them on it. They stick to "a" form of the alphabet and that is it. I'm trying to think now - I don't think they use the same as say the Hams do. clf |
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:34:39 -1200, "clfe"
wrote: "Paul Hirose" wrote in message link.net... The wheel seems to be coming full circle: plain language is gaining popularity over 10-codes in emergency communciations. The problem is that too many local 10-code dialects have developed over the years. They can cause misunderstandings when multiple agencies work together in a major incident. In my area of California the sheriff departments use 10-codes but the fire departments don't. I have no idea how long this state of affairs has prevailed, since I only got into the scanning hobby last summer. http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1...008975,00.html -- Paul Hirose To reply by email remove INVALID Here - before "our" 911 system came on board - the 10 codes tended to vary among Police units like people's choice of colors of homes. It could be very confusing. As to the Fire Services, the city - so far as I know, barely uses them if at all. Here in the rural area, there are a very few 10-codes used by the fire departments, but they coincide with those used by the police where appropriate. Therefore - less confusion for the 911 center. The Phonetic Alphabet still creates some confusion. IF a cop has a brain freeze and calls off a letter such as "F" as "funny" or "friday" the 911 center will call them on it. They stick to "a" form of the alphabet and that is it. I'm trying to think now - I don't think they use the same as say the Hams do. there is a military phonetic alphabet...the one we use in the coast guard and it's the same one used by hams. the coast guard is a stickler to the point that we get called on it if we use 'oh' instead of 'zero' in a number. --------------------------- to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com" and enter 'wf3h' in the field |
The TV show "Cops" did a show years ago from
Broward(?) County Fla.,which is the Miami area. It was Shocking...they were using Q-signals! At first I thought I was imagining it,but the dispatcher was saying things like QSL and QTH. Really gets your attention... "Bob" wrote in message ... On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:34:39 -1200, "clfe" wrote: "Paul Hirose" wrote in message link.net... The wheel seems to be coming full circle: plain language is gaining popularity over 10-codes in emergency communciations. The problem is that too many local 10-code dialects have developed over the years. They can cause misunderstandings when multiple agencies work together in a major incident. In my area of California the sheriff departments use 10-codes but the fire departments don't. I have no idea how long this state of affairs has prevailed, since I only got into the scanning hobby last summer. http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1...008975,00.html -- Paul Hirose To reply by email remove INVALID Here - before "our" 911 system came on board - the 10 codes tended to vary among Police units like people's choice of colors of homes. It could be very confusing. As to the Fire Services, the city - so far as I know, barely uses them if at all. Here in the rural area, there are a very few 10-codes used by the fire departments, but they coincide with those used by the police where appropriate. Therefore - less confusion for the 911 center. The Phonetic Alphabet still creates some confusion. IF a cop has a brain freeze and calls off a letter such as "F" as "funny" or "friday" the 911 center will call them on it. They stick to "a" form of the alphabet and that is it. I'm trying to think now - I don't think they use the same as say the Hams do. there is a military phonetic alphabet...the one we use in the coast guard and it's the same one used by hams. the coast guard is a stickler to the point that we get called on it if we use 'oh' instead of 'zero' in a number. --------------------------- to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com" and enter 'wf3h' in the field |
Here's more on the National Incident Management System plain language
requirement that the newspaper article mentioned. http://www.nimsteam.com/nims_faq.htm#14f "All exercises that responders participate in should feature plain English commands so they can function in a multi-jurisdiction environment." -- Paul Hirose To reply by email remove INVALID |
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:38:04 GMT, "Paul Hirose"
wrote: Here's more on the National Incident Management System plain language requirement that the newspaper article mentioned. "All exercises that responders participate in should feature plain English commands so they can function in a multi-jurisdiction environment." Our county mandates NIMS/ICS (Incident Command System) for all agencies. They still use APCO 10 codes for day to day chatter, where NIMS is a management system and not radio-specific. I don't recall any mention in this or advanced NIMS courses about avoiding 10 codes, but an unwritten given is all should be using the standard APCO 10 code. FEMA offers a simple and free online NIMS intro course here open to anyone: http://168.143.180.84/FEMA/VC/is700_NIMS It takes about 3 hours, has multimedia and is well done. You take an online final, get an email pass/fail, and a paper certificate about 8 weeks later via post. The above IS-700 course is mandatory for RACES membership in our county. Good idea, as it makes sure everyone is on the same page in the big picture, and defines who does what. Steve ************************************************** ******************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ************************************************** ******************* |
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:18:07 -0500, "rtc" wrote:
The TV show "Cops" did a show years ago from Broward(?) County Fla.,which is the Miami area. It was Shocking...they were using Q-signals! At first I thought I was imagining it,but the dispatcher was saying things like QSL and QTH. Really gets your attention... yep...saw a movie..an old one starring montgomery clift. the credits said everyone in the movie apart from clift was active duty military...it was about the berlin airlift. as one of the planes comes into the airport, the controller asked him to 'qsy' to another freq. was amazed... --------------------------- to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com" and enter 'wf3h' in the field |
clfe wrote:
Here - before "our" 911 system came on board - the 10 codes tended to vary among Police units like people's choice of colors of homes. It could be very confusing... I used to be the director of communications at an S.O. Our codes shared SOME common terms with the PD, others vaired quite a bit. Example: Signal 10 (SO) Minor traffic accident Signal 10 (PD) Armed robbery So one day one of the local armored car transporters, who all had the SO frequency for emergencies, called in and said - "Advise the PD they have a signal 10 here at the corner of central and 3rd" Were they reporting a fender bender or were they reporting that the armored car had been robbed? PD, hearing the traffic on their scanners, went screaming to the scene code 3, to find a fender bender, no robbery. BTW code 3 meant "Injury Accident" to yet another local agency. Another difference: One agency 10-53 = tow truck 10-54 = ambulance Neighbor agency 10-53 = ambulance 10-54 = tow truck Very confusing when one agency sends a terminal message or comes up on your freq and says "We have a 53 enroute to XXX location" I'm a firm believer in plain language. Although that has it's problems as well. Example: DISPATCHER "County units, I'll be off the air for a few minutes, troubleshooting in the jail" Came across to some mobile units as "triple shooting in the jail" COUNTY ELECTION OFFICIAL: "We have a machine gone down in the courthouse" Came across as "We have a machine gun down in the courthouse" Sgt Lumpy |
Bob wrote:
yep...saw a movie..an old one starring montgomery clift. the credits said everyone in the movie apart from clift was active duty military...it was about the berlin airlift. as one of the planes comes into the airport, the controller asked him to 'qsy' to another freq. was amazed... In the 60's movie "Them" about giant ants that attacked New Mexico, the cops, supposed to be NM State Police used KMA628 for their callsign. Not radio related, but on some of the old "Flipper" TV shows, the coast guard helicopter winch guy had a helmet that read "NAVY". And speaking of Flipper, what kind of callsign is WD9598, that Ranger Ricks used to say on his radio? Sarge |
They are somewhat common in my area of south central Pa at least for the PD.
I have noticed that they have their regular meaning (not sure about 10-10) but the ones I noticed are 10-1 (Weak Signal) 10-4 (Afirmative) and 10-10 (Negative). I used to play around with CBs and have these codes in a book somewhere. "Paul Hirose" wrote in message ink.net... The wheel seems to be coming full circle: plain language is gaining popularity over 10-codes in emergency communciations. The problem is that too many local 10-code dialects have developed over the years. They can cause misunderstandings when multiple agencies work together in a major incident. In my area of California the sheriff departments use 10-codes but the fire departments don't. I have no idea how long this state of affairs has prevailed, since I only got into the scanning hobby last summer. http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1...008975,00.html -- Paul Hirose To reply by email remove INVALID |
Robbie McFerren wrote:
They are somewhat common in my area of south central Pa at least for the PD. I have noticed that they have their regular meaning (not sure about 10-10) but the ones I noticed are 10-1 (Weak Signal) 10-4 (Afirmative) and 10-10 (Negative)... 10-4 is the only one that I've ever seen universally mean the same thing. Variants I've seen 10-1: - Relay this traffic "10-1 this info to the field supervisor" - Enroute to hosp "Medic 2 10-1 to St Anthony's" - Are you ok status request "ADAM SIX 10-1?" - Sober "This subject is 10-1" 10-10: - Lunch "Unit 9 10-10 at Wendy's" - Paperwork "Pick up your 10-10's at the jail" - Arriving on scene "Medic ONE is 10-10 the accident scene" - Your call cancelled "Medic TWO you have been 10-10'd" n0eq Lumpy |
10-codes losing popularity
I've been a public-safety dispatcher for the last 15 years now for 2
agencies (1 full-time, 1 on-call), dispatching PD/FD/EMS. I disagree with the statement that 10-codes are losing popularity. At least in this God-forsaken Hell of northern NJ 10-codes seem to be holding their own. Both agencies I work for are in the same county of northern NJ and each of the 2 police departments use their own 10-code list. The FD in the full-time agency also has their own 10-code/signal list. The EMS unit uses some of the PD 10-codes. The dispatchers and officers use a mixture of 10-codes/signals and plain english. The supervisors, including the comm center supervisors, do not enforce the use of either style. Their only concern is that we are clear, precise, and professional-sounding on the radio. The on-call agency only has 10-codes/signals for the PD, and again there is no enforcement of either style, just be professional on the air. However, most dispatchers strive to be as professional as possible and use the 10-codes/signals. From a security standpoint the 10-code/signals do nothing. Anyone who listens to an agency for even a short amount of time will be able to figure out what the 10-codes/signals are. We're all scanner buffs here and I venture to say that almost every single one of us didn't know what we were listening to when we first set up our first scanner. But after a short amount of time we figured it out. My opinion is that 10-code/signals are fine for everyday ops involving just your agency. Those incidents that require multiple jurisdictions are obviously candidates for plain english. Again, security is not an issue here.....look at how many media helicopters, TV and radio news vans show up during a multi-agency event. Everybody is listening to their scanners...if they weren't they wouldn't be there. What is an issue is the ability for agencies to work together on a common frequency (such as SPEN in NJ) with no misunderstanding. If there is sensitive information to be relayed it can (and has been already) relayed via cell-phone or Nextel. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few years. Now...can somebody get me out of this Hell that is NJ????? I HATE THIS STATE!!!!! -- .....lately it occurs to me....what a long, strange trip it's been. |
10-codes losing popularity
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:24:01 -0400, "Joe"
wrote: I've been a public-safety dispatcher for the last 15 years now for 2 agencies (1 full-time, 1 on-call), dispatching PD/FD/EMS. I disagree with the statement that 10-codes are losing popularity. At least in this God-forsaken Hell of northern NJ 10-codes seem to be holding their own. Both agencies I work for are in the same county of northern NJ and each of the 2 police departments use their own 10-code list. The FD in the full-time agency also has their own 10-code/signal list. The EMS unit uses some of the PD 10-codes. The dispatchers and officers use a mixture of 10-codes/signals and plain english. The supervisors, including the comm center supervisors, do not enforce the use of either style. Their only concern is that we are clear, precise, and professional-sounding Fine until someone gives a 10-xx (meaning I'm going to lunch) in response to someone who thinks it means I'm responding. Nice that they want you to be professional _sounding_, but real professionals would clear up this "my way" childishness to avoid confusion or disaster in a real emergency where multiple agencies were thrown together. on the radio. The on-call agency only has 10-codes/signals for the PD, and again there is no enforcement of either style, just be professional on the air. However, most dispatchers strive to be as professional as possible and use the 10-codes/signals. From a security standpoint the 10-code/signals do nothing. Anyone who listens to an agency for even a short amount of time will be able to figure out what the 10-codes/signals are. We're all scanner buffs here and I venture to say that almost every single one of us didn't know what we were listening to when we first set up our first scanner. But after a short amount of time we figured it out. My opinion is that 10-code/signals are fine for everyday ops involving just your agency. Those incidents that require multiple jurisdictions are obviously candidates for plain english. Again, security is not an issue here.....look at how many media helicopters, TV and radio news vans show up during a multi-agency event. Everybody is listening to their scanners...if they weren't they wouldn't be there. What is an issue is the ability for agencies to work together on a common frequency (such as SPEN in NJ) with no misunderstanding. If there is sensitive information to be relayed it can (and has been already) relayed via cell-phone or Nextel. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few years. Now...can somebody get me out of this Hell that is NJ????? I HATE THIS STATE!!!!! |
10-codes losing popularity
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:43:16 GMT, said in
rec.radio.scanner: Nice that they want you to be professional _sounding_, but real professionals would clear up this "my way" childishness to avoid confusion or disaster in a real emergency where multiple agencies were thrown together. And you've been a professional dispatcher for how long? |
10-codes losing popularity
"Al Klein" wrote in message ... On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:43:16 GMT, said in rec.radio.scanner: Nice that they want you to be professional _sounding_, but real professionals would clear up this "my way" childishness to avoid confusion or disaster in a real emergency where multiple agencies were thrown together. And you've been a professional dispatcher for how long? Not to mention how many multi-jurisdictional incidents has he worked? Sounds like all hat and no cattle, as we say here in the southwest. A GOOD dispatcher adapts to the circumstances. If you can't handle changing circumstances, let somebody who can do the job. Been there, done that! A former PD dispatcher |
10-codes losing popularity
On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 01:00:11 -0500, "M." said in
rec.radio.scanner: Not to mention how many multi-jurisdictional incidents has he worked? Or how many years has he spent communicating with more than one agency (and more than one set of codes) on a daily basis? Sounds like all hat and no cattle, as we say here in the southwest. A GOOD dispatcher adapts to the circumstances. If you can't handle changing circumstances, let somebody who can do the job. Yep. I tell my wife about the bad accident with a few seriously injured people (even though she's picked up most of the codes by now, just hearing me on the cell phone), my OTJ friends in the city about the bad 10-53/54 and my friends out here about the 10-10 with SPI. And if I have to talk to a fire department dispatcher I speak English. Come on - we have 5 year old kids who are multi-lingual. Adults can't speak more than one "language"? Been there, done that! The 'gummint should leave the decisions to the people who actually do the job. At least in this case they finally got it right. Someone must have been on vacation. A former PD dispatcher "Bloody fingers" like mine. |
10-codes losing popularity
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:16:21 -0400, Al Klein
wrote: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:43:16 GMT, said in rec.radio.scanner: Nice that they want you to be professional _sounding_, but real professionals would clear up this "my way" childishness to avoid confusion or disaster in a real emergency where multiple agencies were thrown together. And you've been a professional dispatcher for how long? A rescue team with each member speaking his own language is a disaster in waiting.. Or did your people learn nothing from the screwed-up comms on 9/11. |
10-codes losing popularity
On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 02:18:14 -0400, Al Klein
wrote: The 'gummint should leave the decisions to the people who actually do the job. At least in this case they finally got it right. Someone must have been on vacation. We saw how well comms went on 9/11, even with all the "professionals" supposedly spwaking the same language. But "the people who actually do the job" ouldn't even work each other on the same frequencies. |
10-codes losing popularity
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10-codes losing popularity
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 17:47:18 -0400, Al Klein
wrote: On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:58:50 GMT, said in rec.radio.scanner: On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 02:18:14 -0400, Al Klein wrote: The 'gummint should leave the decisions to the people who actually do the job. At least in this case they finally got it right. Someone must have been on vacation. We saw how well comms went on 9/11, even with all the "professionals" supposedly spwaking the same language. Those political appointees couldn't get a paper bag to interop with a bonfire to produce ash. Cops and firemen aren't politicaal appointees. But "the people who actually do the job" ouldn't even work each other on the same frequencies. First, NYPD operates on 450 MHz. FDNY operates on 150 MHz. The equipment isn't cross-compatible. My point exactly -- they had no common frequencies with which to coordinate. Second, the people who "do the job" of specifying the systems for NYC are professional politicians, not professional communicators. Please don't get me started - I spent 12 years pulling my hair out over their supposed "expertise", buying systems that covered 25% of the area the vendors promised coverage for, or portables that were "state of the art" - in everything but providing communications. Ditto. Now NYS is putting in a MA/Com system for statewide interop. I guess the question of who's going to pay for all the additional equipment that every LE and FD in the state will have to buy (and then leave to rot on a shelf unless it's ever needed, since very few systems in NYS are MA/Com) isn't something that concerns them. And the fact that, in the mountainous areas, the state couldn't afford enough coverage on 850 MHz. There may be some states that have people on the ground making the decisions, but the federal government and New York (both city and state) aren't among them. Michael Brown, anyone? |
10-codes losing popularity
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 17:49:49 -0400, Al Klein
wrote: On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:55:59 GMT, said in rec.radio.scanner: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:16:21 -0400, Al Klein wrote: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:43:16 GMT, said in rec.radio.scanner: Nice that they want you to be professional _sounding_, but real professionals would clear up this "my way" childishness to avoid confusion or disaster in a real emergency where multiple agencies were thrown together. And you've been a professional dispatcher for how long? A rescue team with each member speaking his own language is a disaster in waiting.. Or did your people learn nothing from the screwed-up comms on 9/11. You quite obviously know nothing about the situation in NYC. But you've evaded the question yet again - HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A PROFESSIONAL DISPATCHER? You won't answer that one, will you? Because you aren't one - you just know how to make things up and hope they sound good to people who don't know the actual situation. Surprise! You've been found out. No, I've found out that the alleged professionals can't coordinate a toilet seat and its lid. And those who think that failure to standardize on a single protocol (the name of the thread, right?) are failing in their responsibilities. |
10-codes losing popularity
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:19:16 GMT, said in
rec.radio.scanner: On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 17:47:18 -0400, Al Klein wrote: On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 06:58:50 GMT, said in rec.radio.scanner: We saw how well comms went on 9/11, even with all the "professionals" supposedly spwaking the same language. Those political appointees couldn't get a paper bag to interop with a bonfire to produce ash. Cops and firemen aren't politicaal appointees. Cops and firemen have no say in the design of the radio systems in NYC - they're just the professionals who have to use them. But "the people who actually do the job" ouldn't even work each other on the same frequencies. First, NYPD operates on 450 MHz. FDNY operates on 150 MHz. The equipment isn't cross-compatible. My point exactly -- they had no common frequencies with which to coordinate. Because the people on the ground have no say in how the systems are set up. You're proving my point. |
10-codes losing popularity
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