Newbie legal/detection questions
 

Newbie legal/detection questions:

I have been lurking here for a long time but haven't posted here
because it's hard for me to post from work. Now I'm on vacation.

Anyhow, I live in the New York metropolitan area and bought a scanner right
after 9/11 because I want to know more about what's going on.

Questions:

- Just how ferocious is the law prohibiting people from sharing what
they've heard over the scanner? In reality, can I tell my spouse about
interesting calls that I've heard? If I were a crime reporter, could I
legally call the police PR people to ask them about an incident I
learned about while monitoring the scanner? (Technically, of course, that
would be a form of sharing information with a third party.)

- I have a Radio Shack PRO-94 scanner. Just in case the authorities ever
do outlaw scanners, does my scanner actually emit some signal while
operating that could alert authorities to the fact that I'm using it?
To people "scanning for scanners," does a scanner appear to be different
from a regular radio or a regular television set?

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:35 -0700, Mean 1
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:45:22 -0500, Al Bell wrote:

Just how ferocious is the law prohibiting people from sharing what
they've heard over the scanner? In reality, can I tell my spouse about
interesting calls that I've heard?

The prohibition does not affect unencrypted government
communications.
It also prohibits you from financial gain from the information, or
publication of the information.

Al Bell wrote in :

Newbie legal/detection questions:

I have been lurking here for a long time but haven't posted here
because it's hard for me to post from work. Now I'm on vacation.

Anyhow, I live in the New York metropolitan area and bought a scanner
right after 9/11 because I want to know more about what's going on.

Questions:

- Just how ferocious is the law prohibiting people from sharing what
they've heard over the scanner? In reality, can I tell my spouse about
interesting calls that I've heard? If I were a crime reporter, could I
legally call the police PR people to ask them about an incident I
learned about while monitoring the scanner? (Technically, of course,
that would be a form of sharing information with a third party.)

- I have a Radio Shack PRO-94 scanner. Just in case the authorities
ever do outlaw scanners, does my scanner actually emit some signal
while operating that could alert authorities to the fact that I'm
using it? To people "scanning for scanners," does a scanner appear to
be different from a regular radio or a regular television set?


There really is no law on what you do with the info you hear or even
record from a scanner.. The only thing the FCC does not like you to do is
retransmit cordless phone calls. other then that tell anyone you want,
record it all day long..



--
That Other George

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At least here in NYC, all the news agencies, have personel sitting at
their headquarters monitoring the first-responder's frequencies.

If something goes down, they use their two-way radio to their guys in
the field, and dispatch them to the location.

I monitor THEM too... and it's kind of funny to hear them relay the
information back and forth.. and their commentary.

The other thing, most 'stringers' carry their own portable scanners,
and rove about the city late at night, hoping to get a scoop, and good
photos of an incident.

If used repsonsibly, scanners are a TERRIFIC thing for civilians to
have.

At almost every large fire, you'lll see the "buffs" together, with
their scanners on the sidelines.

Community watch groups and civilian security patrols most use them to
help and protect their own communities.

When there's an APB out for a missing child, or car used in commission
of a crime, extra eyes and ears in the field provide a wealth of help
to our already understaffed forces.

Just don't interfere with first-responder's operations, stay low-key,
and don't ever try to be a hero. It's not really worth it.

Information is their best help right now.. so, if you see something,
say something. Call 911.

As far as specifically tracking someone RECEIVING radio frequencies,
I'm not familiar with any piece of equipment capable of doing that.

If such a device existed, I have no idea how it would differentiate
someone's AM/FM stereo, wireless router, baby monitor, coordless
phone,or garage door opener from a scanner. (Yes, I know, some of
them transmit.. and that can be detected.. I mean from the "receiving"
point of view, for example.)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:39:32 GMT, Hogger wrote:

At least here in NYC, all the news agencies, have personel sitting at
their headquarters monitoring the first-responder's frequencies.

If something goes down, they use their two-way radio to their guys in
the field, and dispatch them to the location.

I monitor THEM too... and it's kind of funny to hear them relay the
information back and forth.. and their commentary.

The other thing, most 'stringers' carry their own portable scanners,
and rove about the city late at night, hoping to get a scoop, and good
photos of an incident.

If used repsonsibly, scanners are a TERRIFIC thing for civilians to
have.

At almost every large fire, you'lll see the "buffs" together, with
their scanners on the sidelines.

Community watch groups and civilian security patrols most use them to
help and protect their own communities.

When there's an APB out for a missing child, or car used in commission
of a crime, extra eyes and ears in the field provide a wealth of help
to our already understaffed forces.

Just don't interfere with first-responder's operations, stay low-key,
and don't ever try to be a hero. It's not really worth it.

Information is their best help right now.. so, if you see something,
say something. Call 911.

As far as specifically tracking someone RECEIVING radio frequencies,
I'm not familiar with any piece of equipment capable of doing that.

If such a device existed, I have no idea how it would differentiate
someone's AM/FM stereo, wireless router, baby monitor, coordless
phone,or garage door opener from a scanner. (Yes, I know, some of
them transmit.. and that can be detected.. I mean from the "receiving"
point of view, for example.)


Frequency of operation. And changes thereto.

Concert stadia use scanners to detect emissions from tape
recorders and eject people found using them.

Some years back, a US satellite outfit found people using
their small dishes in concealed locations and prosecuted them for
theft of sevice if they were not subscribers.

In the UK, where TV owners have to pay a license fee, similar
means are used to detect working sets from out in the street.

Scanners likely put out rapidly-changing emissions as they
scan.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:35 -0700, Mean 1
said in rec.radio.scanner:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:45:22 -0500, Al Bell wrote:

Just how ferocious is the law prohibiting people from sharing what
they've heard over the scanner? In reality, can I tell my spouse about
interesting calls that I've heard?

The prohibition does not affect unencrypted government
communications.

Sorry, but the Communications Act of 1934, As Amended, prohibits
disclosure of anything heard by radio EXCEPT signals broadcast to the
general public, unless you were a party to the conversation. (That
includes ONLY AM, FM and TV broadcast band stations and amateur
radio.) On-line police scanner streams are illegal, discussing what
you heard with your attorney, while privileged, is illegal, discussing
it with your spouse is illegal, etc. (It says "one", so you can
disclose it to your pets all you like, but not with any human being.)

Is the law vigorously enforced? At the moment I can recall only one
instance of enforcement, and that was disclosure of something heard
being discussed on a cell phone.

Will the authorities prohibit reception of public service frequencies?
Right now federal law specifically permits it.

Can a scanner be detected? Yes, if the person detecting it is
sufficiently educated in electronics, it can be detected in a way that
will stand up in court but, just as almost any electronics engineer
can defeat a radar speeding ticket issued by almost any police officer
(at least on paper - in some courts, having been stopped is
overwhelming evidence of guilt), almost any electronics engineer will
be able to defeat a "scanner" ticket. The evidence is far from
"beyond a reasonable doubt". In fact, it's highly doubtful evidence.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:09:11 -0500, The Other George
said in rec.radio.scanner:

There really is no law on what you do with the info you hear or even
record from a scanner.

Thank you, TOG. I think the rule of thumb should be "Read TOG's post
and assume that the fact is the exact opposite".

*R*E*A*D* the Communications Act of 1934, As Amended, before someone
ends up in prison because he quoted you as a defense. Pay special
attention to Sec. 2511 1 e 1 of the ECPA. "shall be punished". We
don't legally punish people for doing things that aren't illegal.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:39:32 GMT, Hogger said in
rec.radio.scanner:

As far as specifically tracking someone RECEIVING radio frequencies,
I'm not familiar with any piece of equipment capable of doing that.

If such a device existed, I have no idea how it would differentiate
someone's AM/FM stereo, wireless router, baby monitor, coordless
phone,or garage door opener from a scanner. (Yes, I know, some of
them transmit.. and that can be detected.. I mean from the "receiving"
point of view, for example.)

By the frequency of the local oscillator, but that's very iffy as
legal evidence.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:45:22 -0500, Al Bell wrotF:

Newbie legal/detection questions:

I have been lurking here for a long time but haven't posted here
because it's hard for me to post from work. Now I'm on vacation.

Anyhow, I live in the New York metropolitan area and bought a scanner right
after 9/11 because I want to know more about what's going on.

Questions:

- Just how ferocious is the law prohibiting people from sharing what
they've heard over the scanner? In reality, can I tell my spouse about
interesting calls that I've heard? If I were a crime reporter, could I
legally call the police PR people to ask them about an incident I
learned about while monitoring the scanner? (Technically, of course, that
would be a form of sharing information with a third party.)

- I have a Radio Shack PRO-94 scanner. Just in case the authorities ever
do outlaw scanners, does my scanner actually emit some signal while
operating that could alert authorities to the fact that I'm using it?
To people "scanning for scanners," does a scanner appear to be different
from a regular radio or a regular television set?

Most of what you hear on the police, fire, aircraft , marine and
amateur bands is not protected and you can tell the old lady about if.
Cell phones, cordless phones and anything encrypted is another story.

From the ECPA of 1986

(4)Section 2511(2) of title 18, United
States Code, is amended by adding at the
end the following:
"(g)it shall not be unlawful under this
chapter or chapter 121 this title for
Post p. 1860 any person---
"(i)to intercept or access an
electronic communication made through
an electronic communication system
that is configured so that such
electronic communication is readily
accessible to the general public;
"(ii) to intercept any radio
communication which is transmitted--
"(I) by any station for the use
of the general public, or that
relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles,
or persons in distress;
"(II)by any governmental, law
enforcement, civil defense, private
land mobile, or public safety
communications system, including
police and fire, readily accessible
to the general public;
"(III) by a station operating on
an authorized frequency within the
bands allocated to the amateur,
citizens band, or general mobile
radio services; or
"(IV) by any marine or
aeronautical communications system;
"(iii) to engage in any conduct
which--
"(I) is prohibited by section 633
47 USC 553. of the Communications Act of 1934;or
"(II) is excepted from the
application of section 705(a) of the
47 USC 605. Communications Act of 1934 by section
705(b) of that Act;
"(iv) to intercept any wire or
electronic communication the
transmission of which is causing
harmful interference to any lawfully
operating station or consumer
electronic equipment, to the extent
necessary to identify the source of
such interference; or
"(v) for other users of the same
frequency to intercept any radio
communication made through a system that
utilizes frequencies monitored by
individuals engaged in the provision or
the use of such system,, if such
communication is not scrambled or
encrypted

"Al Klein" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:39:32 GMT, Hogger said in
rec.radio.scanner:

As far as specifically tracking someone RECEIVING radio frequencies,
I'm not familiar with any piece of equipment capable of doing that.

If such a device existed, I have no idea how it would differentiate
someone's AM/FM stereo, wireless router, baby monitor, coordless
phone,or garage door opener from a scanner. (Yes, I know, some of
them transmit.. and that can be detected.. I mean from the "receiving"
point of view, for example.)

By the frequency of the local oscillator, but that's very iffy as
legal evidence.

Well, it doesn't seem too iffy in Virginia and D.C. They use devices (VG2
detectors) that pick up local oscillator frequencies in radar detectors, and
have no problem using it for legal evidence...

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:50:29 -0500, "PowerHouse Communications"
wrote:


"Al Klein" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:39:32 GMT, Hogger said in
rec.radio.scanner:

As far as specifically tracking someone RECEIVING radio frequencies,
I'm not familiar with any piece of equipment capable of doing that.

If such a device existed, I have no idea how it would differentiate
someone's AM/FM stereo, wireless router, baby monitor, coordless
phone,or garage door opener from a scanner. (Yes, I know, some of
them transmit.. and that can be detected.. I mean from the "receiving"
point of view, for example.)

By the frequency of the local oscillator, but that's very iffy as
legal evidence.


detecting people " receiving " signals is a time honored tradition
and process dating from before WWII to present times. besides the
" detector detectors " mentioned below , cable companies have been
finding service theft cases from listening to their " local
oscillators " and making legal cases against them. if those people
are listening to channels ( indicated by the radiated local
oscillator freqs ) that their converter isn't authorized to receive ,
then that constitutes theft of service conditions. ( the cable company
sends out signals that normally " locks out " those channels )
since there are slight variations in each piece of equipment, the
cable company can tell how many converters you have on-line too .
way back in WWII, radio receivers were illegal in England. trucks
with directional receiving equipment drove through the streets
locating receivers ( of spies , they hoped ) via their local
oscillators.
Al, all the equipment you mention above, transmits ( inadvertently
) LO type signals on " completely " different freqs and of differing
types, that signal their presence. equipment commonly exists that
can locate most of them from several blocks to several miles distant.
ANY well made piece of government RF surveillance equipment ( WJ
blk boxes for instance ) has been designed to do just " exactly " that
for decades.
modern types are totally computer automated and can " describe a local
RF environment " ( scan everything and project the type and number of
ALL RF devices present within a certain radius ) in just minutes. the
computers can analyze " lo " signals and project ( based on known
computer model algorithms ) the exact types and numbers of equipment
present. they can ( and do ) scan for protracted periods of time and
constantly update the report status.

I have a home made ( new voodoo technology for civilians ) ferro
resonant core ULF sensor ( parts and sample circuits available from
this site http://www.stormwise.com/vlf1574projects.htm )
) set up on the roof rack of my SUV that can " hear " the RF
radiation " clicks " of a new memorex shirt pocket solid state
dictation / voice memo machine , a block and half down the street.
the so called signal from this device is " extremely " small but
easily detectable using the new technology ( government has had them
for decades ) ferro rods . ( completely NEW type of resonant circuits
as compared to past RF devices . THESE need NO caps or circuitry
as we used to know it, they are " self resonant " and the " circuits "
are just pick off coils like the 2 turn tap in a pi-net to
extract the signals these rods accumulate )

http://www.tscm.com/tmdedemod.html




Well, it doesn't seem too iffy in Virginia and D.C. They use devices (VG2
detectors) that pick up local oscillator frequencies in radar detectors, and
have no problem using it for legal evidence...



hay Al, where you been ..... been a while since I saw you around ?
should come back and stir stuff up more often ... ah ah ahah ah aha h!



k.........

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:50:29 -0500, "PowerHouse Communications"
said in rec.radio.scanner:

"Al Klein" wrote in message
.. .

By the frequency of the local oscillator, but that's very iffy as
legal evidence.

Well, it doesn't seem too iffy in Virginia and D.C. They use devices (VG2
detectors) that pick up local oscillator frequencies in radar detectors, and
have no problem using it for legal evidence...

Since that's an oscillator on the radar frequency, there's not much
doubt.

Since you can't be forced to testify against yourself (meaning that
anything you have can't be seized and used against you without due
process), they'll have a slim chance of proving that, since your local
oscillator was running at 140.4 MHz, you were receiving 155.85 MHz.

All it takes is one case lost in the highest court in the state, and
the whole picture changes. It used to be normal in NY for you to
appear once to set a trial date and a second time to be tried. These
days, if the court isn't ready on your first ordered appearance, and
you know enough to ask for a dismissal, the case is dismissed. All it
took was 1 case. But someone has to bring that case.

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:30:36 -0700, krackula said in
rec.radio.scanner:

oscillators " and making legal cases against them. if those people
are listening to channels ( indicated by the radiated local
oscillator freqs ) that their converter isn't authorized to receive ,
then that constitutes theft of service conditions.

Since 1) you're modifying THEIR equipment, 2) their business is
charging for delivered signals and 3) they know the specs of their
equipment, they can prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since the police don't know the IF of your scanner, unless they seize
it, they have a much rougher job of proving a case beyond reasonable
doubt.

Al, all the equipment you mention above, transmits ( inadvertently
) LO type signals on " completely " different freqs and of differing
types, that signal their presence. equipment commonly exists that
can locate most of them from several blocks to several miles distant.
ANY well made piece of government RF surveillance equipment ( WJ
blk boxes for instance ) has been designed to do just " exactly " that
for decades.

But very little equipment can determine the first IF of your receiver
without the person doing the detection having the receiver in his
hands, and to get it he needs probable cause to get a warrant, which
he can't have until he has the scanner in his hands.

It's a case of "we know he did it, but we can't prove it in court
unless we violate the law to get evidence". And, in this case, not
even "know" - more like "strongly suspect".
..
they can ( and do ) scan for protracted periods of time and
constantly update the report status.

Which does no good against scanners in cars doing 65 on an interstate.

I have a home made ( new voodoo technology for civilians ) ferro
resonant core ULF sensor ( parts and sample circuits available from
this site http://www.stormwise.com/vlf1574projects.htm )
) set up on the roof rack of my SUV that can " hear " the RF
radiation " clicks " of a new memorex shirt pocket solid state
dictation / voice memo machine , a block and half down the street.
the so called signal from this device is " extremely " small but
easily detectable using the new technology ( government has had them
for decades ) ferro rods . ( completely NEW type of resonant circuits
as compared to past RF devices . THESE need NO caps or circuitry
as we used to know it, they are " self resonant " and the " circuits "
are just pick off coils like the 2 turn tap in a pi-net to
extract the signals these rods accumulate )

Now use one of them on an interstate to prove that *my* scanner was
running its LO at F1 and its IF is F2 - while I'm doing 65 and you
have to be non-obvious. Sit behind me with some weird looking device
sitting on your dash and my wife (if I'm listening to the scanner
she's driving) will probably slow down to 30 or less, and pull onto
the shoulder if you don't get off her tail - AFTER she stands on the
brake pedal and puts holes in your radiator, in an accident you're
fully responsible for. She just loves tailgaters, and more so if
they're MOS. Anal sphincters come in all sizes - even uniformed. I
know - I used to have some working for me - not for long, just until I
could pawn them off on someone else.

Heck, I can defeat most "radar" tickets, and courts accept them as
"proven" technology. It's a lot easier to defeat state of the art -
just show that it's not technology, it's voodoo, and the court will be
very uncomfortable. (Most judges are Luddites. Those who aren't, and
I've only met 2 in all the years I've been in courts, would laugh a
"scanner in a car" case out of their courts.)

Oh, if you ever do get a ticket for a scanner in your car, ask the
officer, after he finishes testifying, what it was that first made him
suspect that you had an illegal scanner in your car. Unless he
stopped you for something else, and you were stupid enough to leave
your scanner on, he has no case. (My red [police only, in NY]
fireball is usually between the front seats of my car - never know
when you might need it. I've only been asked once why I had it - and
it was on the roof, lit and turning. You can't see it when I'm
driving unless you stop me and come over to my car, so there's no PC
to stop me for having it.)

Of course none of this holds true in "the cop stopped you - that'll
cost you $150" courts, but real courts tend to follow the law, and PC
and proof are part of it.