I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
Smarty, big thanks for your detailed response. One big advantage [that
I could imagine] to using FM -- instead of AM -- to carry the
luminance (Y) signal, is that you can run on your treadmill without
seeing those lines on the screen mask your favorite shows. The
magnetic signals generated by the electronics in the treadmill causes
blinding interference on AM video. FM video is be immune to such
disruptions.

Unless your treadmill is doing something very unusual, the interference
you are seeing is unlikely to be coming in via the RF "front end" of
the TV (where the video demodulation is taking place), and so switching
to FM from AM wouldn't help. (It's more than likely either magnetic
interference upsetting the deflection fields - assuming a CRT-type TV
- or the effects of noise coming in on the AC wiring.)

FM for standard "analog" TV is virtually impossible due to the bandwidth
requirements of typical FM itself. In the case of "digital" TV - well,
for the moment, let's just say that the modulation system used is
considerably different than anything we're talking about here, and
leave it at that, OK?

Bob M.

I want to see your head on a pike.
 

"Anim8rFSK" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Robert Peffers." wrote:

"labtech_one" wrote in message
...

"default" wrote in message
...

SNIP

In all fairness it is/was our fault. Theoretically (in a democracy)
the people rule. We must really like the idea of war . . .
--


in all fairness, the USA is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy.
(Majority does NOT always rule)




Is there anything to prevent a republic also being democratic?

Yes

As far as I know there are two definitions of, "Republic",
1. A state where supreme power is held by the people, or their elected
representatives, or by an elected or nominated president.
2. Literally it means a society with equality between its members.

Neither of which is the definition of Republic.

While a democracy is -
1. (a), a system of government by the whole population, usu. through
elected
representatives. (b), a state so governed. (c), any organization governed
on
democratic principles.
2. an egalitarian and tolerant form of society.

Well, you got that wrong as well.

Can any USAsian really believe that they live in a Republic, (in the
literal
sense of the word)?

Sure. We do.

Can any USAsian really believe that they live in a "Democracy", (in the
literal sense of the word)?

Yes. Many many many people incorrectly believe that. The press insists
on getting it wrong every day.

In effect both the USA and the UK are now, "Oligarchies"-

Except for the part where we're not.

Oligarchy,
1 government by a small group of people.
2 a state governed in this way.
3 the members of such a government.

Just consider how Bush and Blair took our two countries into wars that
the
public, by the large, did not want and you will see that neither state is
either democratic nor republican.

Even if your statement were true, your conclusion still wouldn't be.

We elect these people as our servants to carry out our democratic wishes
and
they then become the masters and we the servants. It is long past time
for
the people of both democracies to reassert themselves and demand their
appointed servants remain their servants rather than their leaders and/or
masters.

Will I now have to beware of black 'copters at dawn?

I'm sure your level of dishonesty and delusion requires it.

I'm so pleased to meet someone who considers themselves a much better
authority on the English language than the Oxford Dictionary.
Keep up the good work.

Perhaps you could also define for us the meaning of, "Extraordinary
Rendition", "Illegal Combatant", and, "Insurgent"?
--

Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...

Why not carry the luminance-signal on FM and the audio-signal on AM?

See the previous post; it's basically a matter of the enormous bandwidth
requirements of FM (note that the standard "deviation" in FM *audio*
broadcast - a measure of how "wide" the overall signal will be - is +/-
75 kHz from the nominal carrier frequency, for a 15 kHz audio bandwidth.
The relationship between the transmitted signal bandwidth and the original
signal bandwidth in FM is not a simple one, but let's just leave it at the
point of noting that video signals are bandwidth hogs, and TV doesn't
even use regular-old-AM as a result of that. (The luminance signal is
actually sent via "vestigal sideband AM," one step removed from full
suppressed-carrier SSB.)

The audio is FM both to avoid the problems of interference bothering the
sound (just as in FM radio), AND to minimize the effects of the
video portions of the signal possibly interfering with the audio. A TV
channel, though, has relatively lots of room for audio.

Nonsense. The choices of AM and FM within the original analog
standard definitions were made for some very, very good reasons.
Digital television is a completely different beast, and is presently
broadcast using two very different modulation schemes - the
U.S. standard (ATSC) using 8-VSB, while the rest of the world
(mostly) will be using COFDM under the DVB-T standard.

Couldn't FSK [the digital equivalent of FM] be used for luminance [Y]
signal of the digital video?

FSK isn't exactly "the digital equivalent of FM" in the first place, and
the short form answer is no. Digital video is carried in a completely
difference manner, and there isn't exactly a readily-separable
luminance "signal" as such in the transmitted signal, at least not as
something you could identify on a scope as in analog TV - it's all just
bits, and it's all packetized.

Bob M.

I want to see your head on a pike.
 

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
None of this crap belongs in sci.electronics.basics.

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 06:57:37 -0700, Anim8rFSK wrote:

In article ,
"Robert Peffers." wrote:

"labtech_one" wrote in message
...

"default" wrote in message
...

SNIP

In all fairness it is/was our fault. Theoretically (in a democracy)
the people rule. We must really like the idea of war . . . --


in all fairness, the USA is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. (Majority
does NOT always rule)




Is there anything to prevent a republic also being democratic?

Yes

As far as I know there are two definitions of, "Republic", 1. A state
where supreme power is held by the people, or their elected
representatives, or by an elected or nominated president. 2. Literally
it means a society with equality between its members.

Neither of which is the definition of Republic.

While a democracy is -
1. (a), a system of government by the whole population, usu. through
elected representatives. (b), a state so governed. (c), any organization
governed on democratic principles.
2. an egalitarian and tolerant form of society.

Well, you got that wrong as well.

Can any USAsian really believe that they live in a Republic, (in the
literal sense of the word)?

Sure. We do.

Can any USAsian really believe that they live in a "Democracy", (in the
literal sense of the word)?

Yes. Many many many people incorrectly believe that. The press insists
on getting it wrong every day.

In effect both the USA and the UK are now, "Oligarchies"-

Except for the part where we're not.

Oligarchy,
1 government by a small group of people. 2 a state governed in this way.
3 the members of such a government.

Just consider how Bush and Blair took our two countries into wars that
the public, by the large, did not want and you will see that neither
state is either democratic nor republican.

Even if your statement were true, your conclusion still wouldn't be.

We elect these people as our servants to carry out our democratic wishes
and they then become the masters and we the servants. It is long past
time for the people of both democracies to reassert themselves and
demand their appointed servants remain their servants rather than their
leaders and/or masters.

Will I now have to beware of black 'copters at dawn?

I'm sure your level of dishonesty and delusion requires it.

I want to see your head on a pike.
 

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
None of this crap belongs in sci.electronics.basics.

snip

Then stop sross-posting it to all the groups you are cross-posting to.

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

My compliments to Richard Crowley in his original reply. We are indeed
dealing with a troll here, admittedly a droll troll.

Smarty


"Bob Myers" wrote in message
...

"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
Smarty, big thanks for your detailed response. One big advantage [that
I could imagine] to using FM -- instead of AM -- to carry the
luminance (Y) signal, is that you can run on your treadmill without
seeing those lines on the screen mask your favorite shows. The
magnetic signals generated by the electronics in the treadmill causes
blinding interference on AM video. FM video is be immune to such
disruptions.

Unless your treadmill is doing something very unusual, the interference
you are seeing is unlikely to be coming in via the RF "front end" of
the TV (where the video demodulation is taking place), and so switching
to FM from AM wouldn't help. (It's more than likely either magnetic
interference upsetting the deflection fields - assuming a CRT-type TV
- or the effects of noise coming in on the AC wiring.)

FM for standard "analog" TV is virtually impossible due to the bandwidth
requirements of typical FM itself. In the case of "digital" TV - well,
for the moment, let's just say that the modulation system used is
considerably different than anything we're talking about here, and
leave it at that, OK?

Bob M.

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

"Bob Myers" wrote ...
Unless your treadmill is doing something very unusual, ....

We're all betting on how long it takes you to relize that you've
been trolled.

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

Bob Myers wrote:

Unless your treadmill is doing something very unusual, the interference
you are seeing is unlikely to be coming in via the RF "front end" of
the TV (where the video demodulation is taking place), and so switching
to FM from AM wouldn't help. (It's more than likely either magnetic
interference upsetting the deflection fields - assuming a CRT-type TV
- or the effects of noise coming in on the AC wiring.)

FM for standard "analog" TV is virtually impossible due to the bandwidth
requirements of typical FM itself. In the case of "digital" TV - well,
for the moment, let's just say that the modulation system used is
considerably different than anything we're talking about here, and
leave it at that, OK?


Catel made some FM return channel modulators and demodulators for
CATV systems that fit into a standard 6 MHz channel spacing. They were
pure ****. Murky video, at best, because of the reduced bandwidth.
Metrovision had them in their community loop in Greene Township, Ohio
and were connected to the United Video Cablevision community loop in
Delhi Township, Ohio (Cincinnati, Ohio suburbs) that used standard VSB
equipment. To add insult to injury, the school system insisted that
their control point be in the Metrovision side, and they used an Apple
II computer to generate video to feed the FM modulator. It was
absolutely unreadable on any TV screen after passing through the Catel
junk. I was in charge of the United Video end of that interconnect
project. I built the headend and interconnect point with three RCA
Heterodyne Signal Processors.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

Radium,

I understand how magnetic fields from your treadmill interfere with your
reception. The answer is actually quite simple. You need to run the
treadmill in reverse, namely, you provide the power and the treadmill acts
as a generator. The benefits are 3-fold:

1. The electric bill in your house will be substantially reduced, since you,
and not the motor in the treadmill, create the needed energy. Rather than
draw power from the wall, you will create a power source.

2. Your personal energy level will rise, and your ability to perform heavy
work will improve. The many contaminants which are now (apparently) clouding
your thinking process will lift, allowing you to no longer have concerns
about SHF, sawtooth waveforms, or other distractions from your basic
circulating chi. Your ying and yang will be simultaneously improved as well.

3. Finally, your TV reception will vastly improve, since this force of
treadmill magnetic flux will not only be removed, but you will generate a
positive ion flux field which will augment both AM and FM reception.

It will take you some time to learn how to run backwards on your treadmill
to achieve this generator action. Do not be disheartened......since the 3
benefits above are well worth the effort.

Always bear in mind that a small squirrel running in its' little cage can do
what you are attempting to do. It will help you to repeat the words over and
over again:


"I am a squirrel"

"I am a squirrel"

"I am a squirrel"

All of us on this newsgroup know you will be successful.

Smarty



"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 6, 10:35 pm, "Smarty" wrote:
Radium,

Some television is actually transmitted using FM modulation schemes, but
not
for commercial broadcasting. Examples of FM TV are ham/amateur ATV/SSTV,
unlicensed 2.4 GHz surveillance links, and a number of point to point and
studio to transmitter systems. FM signaling provides benefits in noise
immunity and also permits better channel re-use, since it exploits one of
the best features of FM called "the FM capture effect", wherein nearly
equal
strength signals which would otherwise interfere in AM systems will cause
an
FM receiver to "capture" only the stronger signal and ignore the weaker,
even if differences of 1 dB of signal strength exists.

There is no specific answer to what you would see as far as video
patterns,
and there is no reason whatsoever to expect to see sawtooth waveforms in
particular. The demodulated signal from FM will conform to the spectral
changes just as the demodulated signal from an AM detector would conform
to
amplitude changes, and random noise would be considered "snow" in either
case. Unless a transmitted signal with a frequency ramp (sometimes called
"a
chirp") is present, the video would have no sawtooth. A Doppler radar,
for
example, could generate such a waveform, since some radars create chirped
/
swept signals. The video scan rate(s) would additionally need to be in
the
range of the chirp rate to create the appearance of a sawtooth.

FM disturbances in the SHF band are likely to be man-made and not
atmospheric, and thus only "viewable" if the "FM Video Receiver" you
envision had a demodulator / discriminator whose bandwidth was tailored
to a
specific transmitted waveform, and even then only if sweep rates were
suitable. Absent a man-made transmitter, the SHF environment is mostly
thermal noise (both circuit and atmospheric) and only a radio telescope
or
other enormous aperture / antenna will see beyond the atmosphere.

The choice of using AM versus FM is really way more complicated than "AM
for
audio" or "FM for digital video". When designing communication systems of
any type, the engineer is faced with balancing many issues, and the
channel,
media, noise environment, interference sources, power budget, multipath,
complexity, and cost are only a few of the considerations involved. A
highly
reliable cable modem to transmit fast digital content may indeed by phase
modulated with an amplitude trellis; a secure and interference resistant
link may use spread-spectrum frequency hopping AM for digital signaling;
and
FM winds up being used heavily in many voice communication systems mostly
because the capture effect reduces co-channel interference.

The closest I can suggest to what you might enjoy exploring would be a
satellite dish and receiver designed for L band which will see and decode
some broadcasting which is unprotected / unencrypted. It gets you into
the
range of SHF, has true TV signaling for public viewing, and is a hobbyist
activity with others involved.

Smarty, big thanks for your detailed response. One big advantage [that
I could imagine] to using FM -- instead of AM -- to carry the
luminance (Y) signal, is that you can run on your treadmill without
seeing those lines on the screen mask your favorite shows. The
magnetic signals generated by the electronics in the treadmill causes
blinding interference on AM video. FM video is be immune to such
disruptions.

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Bob Myers" wrote ...
Unless your treadmill is doing something very unusual, ....

We're all betting on how long it takes you to relize that you've
been trolled.

I've been here - and watching our friend Radium in action -
for quite some time. Don't care, perhaps someone will
learn something from the exchange.

Bob M.

I want to see your head on a pike.
 

On 2007-06-08, Robert Peffers. wrote:

Is there anything to prevent a republic also being democratic?

the collapse of the soviet bloc. :-)

Bye.
Jasen

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

"Bob Myers" wrote...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
We're all betting on how long it takes you to relize that you've
been trolled.

I've been here - and watching our friend Radium in action -
for quite some time. Don't care, perhaps someone will
learn something from the exchange.

Laudable, but consider also that you are directly
contributing to "Radium"s filling the Google archives
with misleading drivel for future readers to trip over.

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

Police use spy tools to spot criminals. www.clarionledger.com
(Local News)

I saw something about that on yesertay's tv news, amazing.Check out
those new fiber optic spy cameras the City of Jackson is putting up all
over town.They need to put one up on each end of the short little street
I live on.
cuhulin

I want to see your head on a pike.
 

Is your CD drive stuck on the one and only track?

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
None of this crap belongs in sci.electronics.basics.

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 06:23:11 -0400, default wrote:

On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 21:57:17 -0400, "labtech_one"
wrote:


"default" wrote in message
. ..

SNIP

In all fairness it is/was our fault. Theoretically (in a democracy)
the people rule. We must really like the idea of war . . . --


in all fairness, the USA is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. (Majority does
NOT always rule)

A democratic republic - or as the decider is fond of saying a
"democracy."

We are "bringing democracy to Iraq." Hear it over and over.

More like bringing hypocrisy, but they prefer to use "democracy."

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

The other thing is that the evolution of TV transmission also had to be
compatible with older sets. Hence for example the various ways of
transmitting chrominance alongside luminance. Or stereo sound alongside
mono.

"Bob Myers" wrote in message
...

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...

Why not carry the luminance-signal on FM and the audio-signal on AM?

See the previous post; it's basically a matter of the enormous bandwidth
requirements of FM (note that the standard "deviation" in FM *audio*
broadcast - a measure of how "wide" the overall signal will be - is +/-
75 kHz from the nominal carrier frequency, for a 15 kHz audio bandwidth.
The relationship between the transmitted signal bandwidth and the original
signal bandwidth in FM is not a simple one, but let's just leave it at the
point of noting that video signals are bandwidth hogs, and TV doesn't
even use regular-old-AM as a result of that. (The luminance signal is
actually sent via "vestigal sideband AM," one step removed from full
suppressed-carrier SSB.)

The audio is FM both to avoid the problems of interference bothering the
sound (just as in FM radio), AND to minimize the effects of the
video portions of the signal possibly interfering with the audio. A TV
channel, though, has relatively lots of room for audio.

Nonsense. The choices of AM and FM within the original analog
standard definitions were made for some very, very good reasons.
Digital television is a completely different beast, and is presently
broadcast using two very different modulation schemes - the
U.S. standard (ATSC) using 8-VSB, while the rest of the world
(mostly) will be using COFDM under the DVB-T standard.

Couldn't FSK [the digital equivalent of FM] be used for luminance [Y]
signal of the digital video?

FSK isn't exactly "the digital equivalent of FM" in the first place, and
the short form answer is no. Digital video is carried in a completely
difference manner, and there isn't exactly a readily-separable
luminance "signal" as such in the transmitted signal, at least not as
something you could identify on a scope as in analog TV - it's all just
bits, and it's all packetized.

Bob M.

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

My Velocity Micro ProMagix www.velocitymicro.com
www.velocitymicroblog.com desktop computer has a CD drive and a big
floppy disk drive.(I made sure of the floppy disk drive when I paid
$1,330.00 for my computer) I keep my computer lean and mean, I am not
dumb enough to haul my computer around on the internet in newsgroups and
guestbooks and crap.I have a cheap AM/FM so-called radio here that has a
CD drive on the top of it.I bought the thing at the Sears store about
five years ago.
cuhulin

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 20:58:04 +0000, Radium wrote:

Why not carry the luminance-signal on FM and the audio-signal on AM?

Because it would be abysmally stupid to try to do so. You'd need about
10 times as much bandwidth if you used FM for the video, and using AM
for the audio would make it susceptible to all manner of noise.

Hope This Helps!
Rich

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

On Jun 12, 10:57 am, Rich Grise wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 20:58:04 +0000, Radium wrote:
Why not carry the luminance-signal on FM and the audio-signal on AM?

Because it would be abysmally stupid to try to do so. You'd need about
10 times as much bandwidth if you used FM for the video, and using AM
for the audio would make it susceptible to all manner of noise.

Isn't the interference on AM video as much of a concern as it would be
on AM audio?

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 12, 10:57 am, Rich Grise wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 20:58:04 +0000, Radium wrote:
Why not carry the luminance-signal on FM and the audio-signal on AM?

Because it would be abysmally stupid to try to do so. You'd need about
10 times as much bandwidth if you used FM for the video, and using AM
for the audio would make it susceptible to all manner of noise.

Isn't the interference on AM video as much of a concern as it would be
on AM audio?

Nope, not really. The creators of the analog TV standard
did something very clever and yet very simple - in choosing
VSB-AM for the video modulation, they also set it up with
"negative modulation," meaning that the peaks of the
modulated signal correspond to the "blackest" portions of
the video (luminance) waveform - which happen to be the
sync pulses. This means that, in the presence of noise, you
are still very likely to maintain a stable picture; the picture
itself may degrade and get a bit "snowy," but you can still
see it. And it really takes quite a bit of noise to make visible
"snow" show up in the picture. For one thing, video has tons
of redundancy due to the repeated raster-refresh scanning,
so you're very unlikely to see the occasional noise spike.
But also, due to this choice re the modulation, low-level
noise is most likely to show up affecting the brighter parts
of the image, where it is a good deal more difficult to see.
VSB-AM was really the ONLY practical choice for analog
video in the broadcast world. And, as has already been noted,
the situation re the modulation schemes used with "digital"
television are considerably different/more complicated.

Bob M.

I want to see SHF FM video signals.
 

Them CD thangys don't last long.If you paid as much as $20.00 for one,
you paid $20.00 too much.
cuhulin