Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

Hi:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?


Thanks,

Radium

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?


Thanks,

Radium


The same as the minimum number of data bits required to represent this
signal. The number of photons/data bits will vary depending on the
complexity, frequency and depth of modulation of the carrier wave.

Mike G0ULI

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?


Thanks,

Radium

you should have stayed with the alt.sci or sci.physics groups, you don't
know what you are getting your self in for here!

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 17, 3:56 pm, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:

The same as the minimum number of data bits required to represent this
signal. The number of photons/data bits will vary depending on the
complexity, frequency and depth of modulation of the carrier wave.

I am talking about an analog carrier wave. In the analog realm, there
is no such thing as "bits".

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium wrote:
Hi:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?

The answer is not simple because any given photon only has one
frequency and one energy.

So at any given time, you need some number of photons at different
frequencies to get the frequency components and some number of
photons at each frequency component to the the amplitude components
of the total signal.

Did you get tired of everyone calling you a clueless moron on sci.physics
and sci.physics.electromagnetics and think you would try here?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 17, 3:56 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Radium" wrote in message

ups.com... Hi:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?

Thanks,

Radium

you should have stayed with the alt.sci or sci.physics groups, you don't
know what you are getting your self in for here!

Huh?

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 17, 4:05 pm, wrote:

So at any given time, you need some number of photons at different
frequencies to get the frequency components and some number of
photons at each frequency component to the the amplitude components
of the total signal.

Well, in FM the peak-to-peak amplitude remains constant but the energy
[frequency] varies.

In AM, the frequency remains constant but the peak to peak amplitude
varies.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 17, 3:56 pm, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:

The same as the minimum number of data bits required to represent this
signal. The number of photons/data bits will vary depending on the
complexity, frequency and depth of modulation of the carrier wave.

I am talking about an analog carrier wave. In the analog realm, there
is no such thing as "bits".


Radium

If a single photon can represent a single discrete energy level, then at
some point you will have to translate your analogue signal into discrete
photons. A process similar to digitising an audio signal to produce a CD.
The number of photons will depend on the sampling rate chosen, the bandwidth
and depth of modulation of the original signal and the fidelity with which
you wish to reconstruct a representation of the original signal. 300,000
photons per second should do the trick, as that is the frequency of the
original signal and each photon can represent the amplitude of each half of
a single sine wave.

It is standard practice to sample at least double the frequency of whatever
you are trying to capture.

Mike G0ULI

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium wrote:
On Jun 17, 3:56 pm, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:

The same as the minimum number of data bits required to represent this
signal. The number of photons/data bits will vary depending on the
complexity, frequency and depth of modulation of the carrier wave.

I am talking about an analog carrier wave. In the analog realm, there
is no such thing as "bits".

In the analog realm, there is no such thing as photons as they are
discrete quanta.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium wrote:
On Jun 17, 4:05 pm, wrote:

So at any given time, you need some number of photons at different
frequencies to get the frequency components and some number of
photons at each frequency component to the the amplitude components
of the total signal.

Well, in FM the peak-to-peak amplitude remains constant but the energy
[frequency] varies.

In AM, the frequency remains constant but the peak to peak amplitude
varies.

You've never seen what an AM signal looks like on a spectrum analyzer,
have you?

Go look at: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/AM.htm

Hot flash for you, the AM modulation process creates other frequencies.

If you only have one frequency, you don't have modulation of any
kind.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 17, 4:38 pm, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:

300,000
photons per second should do the trick, as that is the frequency of the
original signal and each photon can represent the amplitude of each half of
a single sine wave.

So the amount of photons-per-second should be double the frequency of
the carrier-wave? In my first post of the thread, I stated that the
carrier frequency for the AM signal is 150 KHz. Each photon in that
signal is 150 KHz. It's possible to have one 150 KHz photon, right?

My question was relating the modulator wave. If I have using 150 KHz
photons for my carrier-wave on AM radio, what is the minimum amount of
photons-per-second I would require to transmit, a modulator-signal
[through the 150 KHz carrier-signal] of 20 KHz? I am guessing 40,000
150-KHz-photons-per-seconds. Am I right?

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 17, 4:38 pm, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:

300,000
photons per second should do the trick, as that is the frequency of the
original signal and each photon can represent the amplitude of each half
of
a single sine wave.

So the amount of photons-per-second should be double the frequency of
the carrier-wave? In my first post of the thread, I stated that the
carrier frequency for the AM signal is 150 KHz. Each photon in that
signal is 150 KHz. It's possible to have one 150 KHz photon, right?

My question was relating the modulator wave. If I have using 150 KHz
photons for my carrier-wave on AM radio, what is the minimum amount of
photons-per-second I would require to transmit, a modulator-signal
[through the 150 KHz carrier-signal] of 20 KHz? I am guessing 40,000
150-KHz-photons-per-seconds. Am I right?


Radium

You can have a single photon oscillating at a frequency of 150,000 cycles
per second. Measuring that photon will give you a sample of 1/150,000th of a
second duration. If you want to do anything meaningful, you need to have a
whole lot more photons. If you modulate a 150kHz carrier with a signal of
20kHz then the bandwidth of the signal will extend from 150 kHz -20 kHz to
150 kHz +20 kHz or from 130-170 kHz. Signals centred on 150 kHz represent
just the carrier wave. Signals at 130 kHz and 170 kHz represent 100%
modulation of the carrier wave. Now the modulation of the carrier wave is
symmetrical about the center frequency, so you only need to measure one
half.

One way of recovering the signal is to measure the frequency of each photon
between 130 and 150 kHz at a rate of 300,000 samples per second. The
variation of each photon from the carrier frequency represents the
modulation. A 20 kHz signal can be accurately represented using 40,000
samples, but this is different from detecting modulation on a higher
frequency carrier wave.

Mike G0ULI

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium wrote:
On Jun 17, 4:38 pm, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:

300,000
photons per second should do the trick, as that is the frequency of the
original signal and each photon can represent the amplitude of each half of
a single sine wave.

So the amount of photons-per-second should be double the frequency of
the carrier-wave? In my first post of the thread, I stated that the
carrier frequency for the AM signal is 150 KHz. Each photon in that
signal is 150 KHz. It's possible to have one 150 KHz photon, right?

My question was relating the modulator wave. If I have using 150 KHz
photons for my carrier-wave on AM radio, what is the minimum amount of
photons-per-second I would require to transmit, a modulator-signal
[through the 150 KHz carrier-signal] of 20 KHz? I am guessing 40,000
150-KHz-photons-per-seconds. Am I right?

No.

For AM with a 150 Khz carrier and a steady 20 Khz tone, you have to emit
1 130 Khz photon, 2 150 Khz photons, and 1 170 Khz photon approximately
every 12 microseconds.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

wrote in message
...
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium wrote:
On Jun 17, 4:38 pm, "Mike Kaliski" wrote:

300,000
photons per second should do the trick, as that is the frequency of
the
original signal and each photon can represent the amplitude of each
half of
a single sine wave.

So the amount of photons-per-second should be double the frequency of
the carrier-wave? In my first post of the thread, I stated that the
carrier frequency for the AM signal is 150 KHz. Each photon in that
signal is 150 KHz. It's possible to have one 150 KHz photon, right?

My question was relating the modulator wave. If I have using 150 KHz
photons for my carrier-wave on AM radio, what is the minimum amount of
photons-per-second I would require to transmit, a modulator-signal
[through the 150 KHz carrier-signal] of 20 KHz? I am guessing 40,000
150-KHz-photons-per-seconds. Am I right?

No.

For AM with a 150 Khz carrier and a steady 20 Khz tone, you have to emit
1 130 Khz photon, 2 150 Khz photons, and 1 170 Khz photon approximately
every 12 microseconds.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Nicely put Jim.

Mike G0ULI

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article . com,
Radium wrote:

Snip

Go away cross posting nut case.

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article ,
"Mike Kaliski" wrote:

Snip

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article ,
wrote:

Snip

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"Mike Kaliski" wrote:

Ohh gawd, bizarre telemundo is back ...

PLONKERS!

JS

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 17, 3:56 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Radium" wrote in message

ups.com... Hi:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?

Thanks,

Radium

you should have stayed with the alt.sci or sci.physics groups, you don't
know what you are getting your self in for here!

as in 'go fish' ~ RHF

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 17, 4:45 pm, wrote:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium wrote:

On Jun 17, 4:05 pm, wrote:
So at any given time, you need some number of photons at different
frequencies to get the frequency components and some number of
photons at each frequency component to the the amplitude components
of the total signal.
Well, in FM the peak-to-peak amplitude remains constant but the energy
[frequency] varies.
In AM, the frequency remains constant but the peak to peak amplitude
varies.

You've never seen what an AM signal looks like on a spectrum analyzer,
have you?


Scroll down to "A More Realistic Spectrum"
- Go look at:http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/AM.htm
Check-out the two side-by-side Images


Hot flash for you, the AM modulation process creates other frequencies.

If you only have one frequency, you don't have modulation of any
kind.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:19:59 -0700, Radium
wrote:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?

That one is real simple:
2 photons (of appropriate amplitude, hence color) at most 3.333 (less
would be better, but not too much less) microseconds apart.

Feel free to desire more, but you asked for the minimum. If you want
more audio (sideband) content, that will certainly drive up the count
too.

Now, how's your quantum efficiency these days? (Use it to boost the
count higher.)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article . com,
Radium wrote:
Hi:

What is the minimum amount of photons-per-second needed for a 150 KHz
AM radio carrier wave to transmit audio signals? Around 20,000-photons-
per-second?


1. What is the energy of a photon at 150 kHz?

2. What is the minimum discernable signal in your receiving system?
(How much power is needed at the receiver to overcome the internal
noise of the receiver system and detect the signal?)

3. What signal to noise ratio makes for a tolerable listening condition?
(How much more power than quetion #2 is needed at the receiver to decode
the modulation and yield a usable signal?)

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article .com,
Denny wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:37 pm, Richard Clark wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:19:59 -0700, Radium
wrote:

Snip

I need a beer...

Nope. You just need to be added to the kill file.

Cheers.

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 18, 11:05 am, (Mark Zenier) wrote:

1. What is the energy of a photon at 150 kHz?

6.2 X 10^-10 eV

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

John Smith I wrote:

Telamon wrote:

In article ,
"Mike Kaliski" wrote:


Ohh gawd, bizarre telemundo is back ...

PLONKERS!

JS


The irony is he's proudly plonking those who are actually more on topic
with this 'photon' thread than he often is in other threads, where the
subject is really OT.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article .com,
Denny wrote:

Snip

plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article ,
Plonk Dodger wrote:

Snip

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

Telamon wrote:

...
plonk


My gawd man! Is your quest to plonk the world ... ;-)

JS

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Denny wrote:
On Jun 18, 10:53 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article .com,



Denny wrote:
On Jun 17, 10:37 pm, Richard Clark wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:19:59 -0700, Radium
wrote:

Snip

I need a beer...

Nope. You just need to be added to the kill file.

Cheers.

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Oh gawd, now my life is over....

denny / k8do

Maybe not.

Let's see how many more times you are added to his killfile.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article . com,
Radium wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:05 am, (Mark Zenier) wrote:

1. What is the energy of a photon at 150 kHz?

6.2 X 10^-10 eV


You didn't answer the other questions. How much power does a good radio
need to get a listenable signal?

Here's some numbers

input impedance 50 ohms
Noise Figure 5 db
Bandwidth 6 kHz
signal to noise ratio 40 dB

(This would be what some of the newsgroups listeners here would want if
they had one of their pretty damn good radios listening to a broadcast
station. Really picky ones would probably want a 8-15 kHz bandwidth
with a 60 dB s/N ratio).

There are equations out there that will give you how much power
you need for this signal...

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

Telamon wrote:
In article .com,
Denny wrote:

Snip

plonk


Anyone who would do that deserves a

Bigger SNIP

and a

Monster PLONK

tom
K0TAR

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

Telamon wrote:
In article .com,
Denny wrote:

Snip

plonk


Do you only post here to plonk people? I guess that could be fun.... ;^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIa -

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

On Jun 21, 1:08 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
Telamon wrote:
In article .com,
Denny wrote:

Snip

plonk

Do you only post here to plonk people? I guess that could be fun.... ;^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIa -

Thats about it. Don't mind him. He was abused as a child. He's
plonked
me twice in the last 5 years or so, and I'm sure this post will bring
me
up to three.. Which begs the answer... If I was plonked before, how
can I be replonked, unless I was unplonked..
I noticed he had to plonk Denny twice.. I guess his plonking
device is about as effective as viagra on a 98 year old..
I call him Telaprick... And yes, he has worked hard in the past
to deserve the new name I have bestowed upon him. I quit posting to
the shortwave group about a year ago, cuz I got tired of dealing
with a couple of brain dead morons that think they own the whole
show over there. And if you post anything that is even slightly
technical, they will whine and complain that it's too much for
the average shortwave listener to handle, or comprehend.
So I decided, $%&* em if they can't take a joke.
The only thing that goes "plonk" around here are the turds
that fall into the toilet each morning after I've had my first cup
of go juice. Only a whiny bitchette would go around constantly
"plonking" people. It adds more clutter than the posts he is
plonking..
MK

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article .com,
Denny wrote:

Snip

plonk


Do you only post here to plonk people? I guess that could be fun.... ;^)

Nope. I just figure that if a person will entertain a Troll then they
are not worth reading.

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article ,
Tom Ring wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article .com,
Denny wrote:

Snip

plonk


Anyone who would do that deserves a

Bigger SNIP

and a

Monster PLONK

Good for you.

Plonk

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Minimum photons-per-second [amplitude] required for 150 KHz?
 

In article .com,
Radium wrote:
On Jun 20, 1:01 pm, (Mark Zenier) wrote:
In article . com,

Radium wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:05 am, (Mark Zenier) wrote:

1. What is the energy of a photon at 150 kHz?

6.2 X 10^-10 eV

You didn't answer the other questions. How much power does a good radio
need to get a listenable signal?

Here's some numbers

input impedance 50 ohms
Noise Figure 5 db
Bandwidth 6 kHz
signal to noise ratio 40 dB

(This would be what some of the newsgroups listeners here would want if
they had one of their pretty damn good radios listening to a broadcast
station. Really picky ones would probably want a 8-15 kHz bandwidth
with a 60 dB s/N ratio).

There are equations out there that will give you how much power
you need for this signal...

I guess the dynamic range needs to be at least 140 dB [to match human
ear's loudness perception] and bandwidth at least 40 KHz [to match
human's pitch perception].

I am not sure about the input impedance or noise figure.


We're not talking about human perceptions, we're talking about a
radio.

Anyway, how much power does a radio signal to need to be picked up?

To start with, there is electronics noise. This comes from temperature
of the circuit, and how wide the frequency response. The equation is
kTB, where k is Boltzmann's Constant, T it the absolute temperature
in Kelvin, and B is the bandwidth in Hertz. This is called the thermal
noise power.

Next, there's a fudge factor, called either the Noise Factor or the
same thing stated in decibels, the Noise Figure. It's determined by
the quality of the transistors (or other active amplifying element)
and the topology of the circuit. It specifies how much more noise is
added in the circuit. The best way to get it is to measure it.
(5db, about a factor of 3, would be for a pretty good shortwave radio).

Multiply thermal noise power by the noise factor, and you find the
"noise floor", or "minimum detectable signal" for a circuit.

But that doesn't do you much good, because all you can do with that is,
maybe, tell if there is a signal there, or perhaps not. So you need
more power in the signal to overcome the noise. For reasonable audio,
a factor of 10,000 for power is in the ball park. (This is usually
expressed as decibels, ie. 40 dB).

So here's a cut and paste from a unix program that does calulations with
stated dimensions, along with some comments.

[mzenier@localhost mzenier]$ units --verbose
1948 units, 71 prefixes, 28 functions

You have: boltzmann * 290 kelvin * 6 kilohertz * 3 * 10000

Boltzmann's constant * room temperature * bandwidth * Noise Factor * 40 dB

You want: watts
boltzmann * 290 kelvin * 6 kilohertz * 3 * 10000
= 7.2069944e-13 watts

This is how much power is needed to receive the signal with a signal
to noise ratio of 40 dB in a shortwave radio.

You have: 150 kilohertz h

frequency * Planck's Constant

You want: joules
150 kilohertz h = 9.9391031e-29 joules

Energy per photon at 150 kHz

You have: (boltzmann * 290 kelvin * 6 kilohertz * 3 * 10000)/(150 kilohertz h)
You want: hertz
(boltzmann * 290 kelvin * 6 kilohertz * 3 * 10000)/(150 kilohertz h)
= 7.2511517e+15 hertz

Divide the power needed by the energy in each photon, and you get the
number of Photons per second at 150 kHz to give a 40 dB signal to noise
ratio in a pretty good quality receiver with a 6 kilohertz bandwidth.

7.2511517e+15 is a lot more than 20,000.

(And a good demonstration why they don't use the math for quantum physics
for radio frequency calculations.)

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)