FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

Hi all, I picked up an SDR radio dongle, and have been playing around
with receiving. As I am playing around with it today, I am noticing
something odd (to me).

We have a college station locally that broadcasts at 88.1MHz FM. As
with many college radio stations, it has a very weak signal, but I can
just pull it in with rabbit ear antennas.

As I was poking around at ~24MHz, and I was able to pull this same
station in at 23.645MHz. Even more odd, I was getting a much better
signal at 23.645MHz than at the 88.1MHz "official" frequency.

Additionally, as I scanned around, I also found all of the other
stations doing this as well; 91.9MHz, which is too weak to tune in, I
can hear perfectly at 28.035MHz. I can also tune in to 96.1MHz at
30.240MHz, 105.5MHz at 30.325, and so forth.

So here's my question, is this something that is "normal" in radio, or
does this instead point to some peculiarity with my radio/software setup.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014, Jon Danniken wrote:

Hi all, I picked up an SDR radio dongle, and have been playing around
with receiving. As I am playing around with it today, I am noticing
something odd (to me).

We have a college station locally that broadcasts at 88.1MHz FM. As
with many college radio stations, it has a very weak signal, but I can
just pull it in with rabbit ear antennas.

As I was poking around at ~24MHz, and I was able to pull this same
station in at 23.645MHz. Even more odd, I was getting a much better
signal at 23.645MHz than at the 88.1MHz "official" frequency.

Additionally, as I scanned around, I also found all of the other
stations doing this as well; 91.9MHz, which is too weak to tune in, I
can hear perfectly at 28.035MHz. I can also tune in to 96.1MHz at
30.240MHz, 105.5MHz at 30.325, and so forth.

So here's my question, is this something that is "normal" in radio, or
does this instead point to some peculiarity with my radio/software setup.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

FM stations apparently can use something around 26 MHz for remote feeds,
but I don't know the details other than it has come up in one of the
newsgroups before, someonehearing FM broadcasting in the wrong place.

Do those things do any conversion, or is it straight to baseband? If it
converts to some other frequency first, then maybe you are seeing an
image. And since those things aren't so well tuned, so image rejection
might not be so great. That doesn't explain why the wrong frequency would
have a stronger signal.

Find out if it converts to an IF first, then do some math.


MIchael

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 13:15:16 -0700, Jon Danniken
wrote:

Hi all, I picked up an SDR radio dongle, and have been playing around
with receiving. As I am playing around with it today, I am noticing
something odd (to me).

We have a college station locally that broadcasts at 88.1MHz FM. As
with many college radio stations, it has a very weak signal, but I can
just pull it in with rabbit ear antennas.

As I was poking around at ~24MHz, and I was able to pull this same
station in at 23.645MHz. Even more odd, I was getting a much better
signal at 23.645MHz than at the 88.1MHz "official" frequency.

Additionally, as I scanned around, I also found all of the other
stations doing this as well; 91.9MHz, which is too weak to tune in, I
can hear perfectly at 28.035MHz. I can also tune in to 96.1MHz at
30.240MHz, 105.5MHz at 30.325, and so forth.

So here's my question, is this something that is "normal" in radio, or
does this instead point to some peculiarity with my radio/software setup.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

The 'front' end of many relatively low cost, wide range receivers has
very poor selectivity. The output of the Mixer stage is the SUM and
the DIFFERENCE between the local oscillator frequency and the incoming
signal. The result is when you tune a frequency, you are really tuning
to two different frequencies. The difference between one signal and
the IF and the Sum of another signal and the IF, Usually there is some
sort of pre-selector, bandpass filter or semi-tuned RF amplier that
effectively blocks the unwanted frequency, so there is no energy in
one of the two possibly tuned frequencies

For example if you have a conventional FM receiver, traditionally the
Intermediate frequency is 10.7 Mhz. So if you tuned the receiver

Another strategy is to 'up convert' instead of down convert. This puts
much more spectrum between the sum and difference frequency.

All that your experience says is that SDR probably has poor front end
selectivity.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 2014-03-17 21:29:35 +0000, Michael Black said:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014, Jon Danniken wrote:

Hi all, I picked up an SDR radio dongle, and have been playing around
with receiving. As I am playing around with it today, I am noticing
something odd (to me).

We have a college station locally that broadcasts at 88.1MHz FM. As
with many college radio stations, it has a very weak signal, but I can
just pull it in with rabbit ear antennas.

As I was poking around at ~24MHz, and I was able to pull this same
station in at 23.645MHz. Even more odd, I was getting a much better
signal at 23.645MHz than at the 88.1MHz "official" frequency.

Additionally, as I scanned around, I also found all of the other
stations doing this as well; 91.9MHz, which is too weak to tune in, I
can hear perfectly at 28.035MHz. I can also tune in to 96.1MHz at
30.240MHz, 105.5MHz at 30.325, and so forth.

So here's my question, is this something that is "normal" in radio, or
does this instead point to some peculiarity with my radio/software setup.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon

FM stations apparently can use something around 26 MHz for remote
feeds, but I don't know the details other than it has come up in one of
the newsgroups before, someonehearing FM broadcasting in the wrong
place.

Do those things do any conversion, or is it straight to baseband? If
it converts to some other frequency first, then maybe you are seeing an
image. And since those things aren't so well tuned, so image rejection
might not be so great. That doesn't explain why the wrong frequency
would have a stronger signal.

Find out if it converts to an IF first, then do some math.


MIchael

It is also common to find FM broadcast feeds up around 460 MHz.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/17/2014 02:29 PM, Michael Black wrote:

FM stations apparently can use something around 26 MHz for remote feeds,
but I don't know the details other than it has come up in one of the
newsgroups before, someonehearing FM broadcasting in the wrong place.

Do those things do any conversion, or is it straight to baseband?

From my understanding, the tuner chip sends out an 8MHz (I think)
"window" of information at zero-IF to the modulator/interface chip
(RTL2832U). I did see a 28.800 crystal on mine when I opened it up to
put in some shielding, though.

Unfortunately I am rather new at all of this, so I'm not really up to
speed on radio stuff yet.

If it
converts to some other frequency first, then maybe you are seeing an
image. And since those things aren't so well tuned, so image rejection
might not be so great. That doesn't explain why the wrong frequency
would have a stronger signal.

Find out if it converts to an IF first, then do some math.

Thanks,

Jon

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/17/2014 03:10 PM, matt weber wrote:

The 'front' end of many relatively low cost, wide range receivers has
very poor selectivity. The output of the Mixer stage is the SUM and
the DIFFERENCE between the local oscillator frequency and the incoming
signal. The result is when you tune a frequency, you are really tuning
to two different frequencies. The difference between one signal and
the IF and the Sum of another signal and the IF, Usually there is some
sort of pre-selector, bandpass filter or semi-tuned RF amplier that
effectively blocks the unwanted frequency, so there is no energy in
one of the two possibly tuned frequencies

For example if you have a conventional FM receiver, traditionally the
Intermediate frequency is 10.7 Mhz. So if you tuned the receiver

Another strategy is to 'up convert' instead of down convert. This puts
much more spectrum between the sum and difference frequency.

All that your experience says is that SDR probably has poor front end
selectivity.

Thanks Matt.

Jon

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

matt weber wrote:
All that your experience says is that SDR probably has poor front end
selectivity.

Almost none. The dongle was designed to pick up megawatt digital TV stations
with short antennas (about 4-6 inches) antennas. Using it as an SDR is
a happy accident.

The ones sold as DVB-T dongles come with software for decoding digital
TV broadcasts, some come with digital audio broadcast decoding software, most
don't. The most popular E4000 receiver dongle did not come with FM broadcast
reception software.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

matt weber wrote:
All that your experience says is that SDR probably has poor front end
selectivity.

Almost none. The dongle was designed to pick up megawatt digital TV stations
with short antennas (about 4-6 inches) antennas. Using it as an SDR is
a happy accident.

To be fair, it's not related to an SDR, but to a specific and cheap
implemtnation of the idea. One can argue that a lot of low end wide band
receivers don't have good front end selectivity, either.

If there's a conversion to a high IF, image rejection can be done with a
low pass filter. That's true with any receiver that converts to a high
enough first IF. I seem to recall from a description that the Racal
receiver that used the Wadley Loop had both a good low pass filter and a
traditional LC front end, and one could switch between the two. The low
pass was good enough for the image rejection, but of course meant all the
signals from DC to 30MHz or wherever the LPF cutoff was seen by the first
tube, so it had to handle all of that. Not necessarily a good thing.

Michael

The ones sold as DVB-T dongles come with software for decoding digital
TV broadcasts, some come with digital audio broadcast decoding software,
most don't. The most popular E4000 receiver dongle did not come with FM
broadcast reception software.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

matt weber wrote:
All that your experience says is that SDR probably has poor front end
selectivity.

On 3/18/2014 12:59 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

Almost none. The dongle was designed to pick up megawatt digital TV stations
with short antennas (about 4-6 inches) antennas. Using it as an SDR is
a happy accident.

A great tutorial / construction article on how to use the dongle as a DC
to daylight software defined radio (SDR):

QST magazine, January 2013, pp 30-35.

If you know a member of the ARRL, they can print a copy of this article.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/17/2014 01:15 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
Hi all, I picked up an SDR radio dongle, and have been playing around
with receiving. As I am playing around with it today, I am noticing
something odd (to me).

We have a college station locally that broadcasts at 88.1MHz FM. As
with many college radio stations, it has a very weak signal, but I can
just pull it in with rabbit ear antennas.

As I was poking around at ~24MHz, and I was able to pull this same
station in at 23.645MHz. Even more odd, I was getting a much better
signal at 23.645MHz than at the 88.1MHz "official" frequency.

Additionally, as I scanned around, I also found all of the other
stations doing this as well; 91.9MHz, which is too weak to tune in, I
can hear perfectly at 28.035MHz. I can also tune in to 96.1MHz at
30.240MHz, 105.5MHz at 30.325, and so forth.

So here's my question, is this something that is "normal" in radio, or
does this instead point to some peculiarity with my radio/software setup.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Jon


Now you get to experience the joy of building a crude preselector. A 20
dB pad might work, try that first.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

dave wrote:

Now you get to experience the joy of building a crude preselector. A 20
dB pad might work, try that first.

A friend of mine made one with a coax stub, and a T connecter. I'll ask him
the length and type of coax.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

dave wrote:

Now you get to experience the joy of building a crude preselector. A 20
dB pad might work, try that first.

A friend of mine made one with a coax stub, and a T connecter. I'll ask him
the length and type of coax.

Wouldn't that have been a notch filter, to get rid of a particularly
strong and pesky specific signal?

If it's just one station, then it is a solution, set and forget. But if
there are multiple stations causing problems, then more is needed.

I was going to say in the old days endless preselectors and tuners and
preamps were built (and even sold as commercial products) in an attempt to
boost the performance of a lot of those low end receivers. I remember one
mod for the Hallicrafters S38 that was just one tube, no tuned circuits,
the performance boosted because the tube meant the existing tuned circuit
wasn't loaded down.

There'd be low pass filters to get rid of FM and TV stations, high pass
filters to get rid of AM broadcast stations, and just things to peak up
specific frequencies to get rid of images.

I don't think any of that would have helped my Hallicrafters S-120A (the
transistor model), that thing didn't need an antenna to receive endless
local broadcast stations. It would have needed a lot of work with
shielding to make a filter between the antenna and receiver useful, it wsa
just picking up the signals directly.

Sometimes it is a too strong local signal, sometimes it is a badly
designed receiver that will never be fixable.

Michael

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:00:53 -0400, Michael Black wrote:


I don't think any of that would have helped my Hallicrafters S-120A (the
transistor model), that thing didn't need an antenna to receive endless
local broadcast stations. It would have needed a lot of work with
shielding to make a filter between the antenna and receiver useful, it
wsa just picking up the signals directly.

That was my first receiver, my Mother got it from Sears for about $70.
That model was terrible, it looked cool, but it was a real dog. I
finally got an older Hallicrafters, SX-40 I think, and it was much better.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014, sctvguy1 wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:00:53 -0400, Michael Black wrote:


I don't think any of that would have helped my Hallicrafters S-120A (the
transistor model), that thing didn't need an antenna to receive endless
local broadcast stations. It would have needed a lot of work with
shielding to make a filter between the antenna and receiver useful, it
wsa just picking up the signals directly.

That was my first receiver, my Mother got it from Sears for about $70.
That model was terrible, it looked cool, but it was a real dog. I
finally got an older Hallicrafters, SX-40 I think, and it was much better.

I emptied out my bank account of accumulated birthday and Christmas money,
and some other money was added. It was more like $90 Canadian, which was
a lot for me at the time, but the cheapest receiver I could get locally,
and probably the cheapest I could get generally.

How many people were suckered in by those low end receivers? We had no
experience, and as you say, it all looked so good. The dial was awful,
but hey, it had all those places around the world stencilled, I could get
Antarctica if I tuned to that spot there. I was still a beginner, so how
would I know about seeking out a local ham club to see if I could at least
find the same level of receiver for less money on the used market? It
didn't even take that many months for me to get up to speed, but I spent
the money then, rather than waiting.

I was lucky, a year later when I got my ham license, someone lent me (for
a decade) a Hammarlund SP-600, which wasn't perfect, but it was almost
infinitely better than that S-120A. I probably could have kept the Super
Pro, but at one point when I wasn't using it much, he asked if he could
take it back to lend to someone else.

A couple of years ago, a 1950s Hallicrafter ad was making the rounds on
the internet, and that reminded me that Hallicrafter did seem to play up
that aspect, the foreign countries, and the exotic world out there.
Hallicrafters sold a record for some time as part of their advertising,
only 25cents. WHen I remembered seeing those records in their ads, I did
a search, and it's online, though I don't have a specific URL. I was 11
years old when I got that S-120A, all that exotic stuff and exotic
countries I could hear with it was part of Hallicrafter's promotion, and
certainly was a lure to me, when the reality was, those low end receivers
werne't likely to get much more than the strongest of foreign
broadcasters.

At the same time, that past is gone. I think I'd rather have the
illusion of it, the hope that it could happen, than being older and the
world a lot smaller, and that exotic world completely gone.

Michael

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/18/2014 05:39 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

A great tutorial / construction article on how to use the dongle as a DC
to daylight software defined radio (SDR):

QST magazine, January 2013, pp 30-35.

If you know a member of the ARRL, they can print a copy of this article.

Interesting article, thanks for posting that, Joe.

Jon

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/18/2014 11:00 AM, Michael Black wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

dave wrote:

Now you get to experience the joy of building a crude preselector. A 20
dB pad might work, try that first.

A friend of mine made one with a coax stub, and a T connecter. I'll
ask him
the length and type of coax.

Wouldn't that have been a notch filter, to get rid of a particularly
strong and pesky specific signal?

If it's just one station, then it is a solution, set and forget. But if
there are multiple stations causing problems, then more is needed.

I was going to say in the old days endless preselectors and tuners and
preamps were built (and even sold as commercial products) in an attempt
to boost the performance of a lot of those low end receivers. I
remember one mod for the Hallicrafters S38 that was just one tube, no
tuned circuits, the performance boosted because the tube meant the
existing tuned circuit wasn't loaded down.

There'd be low pass filters to get rid of FM and TV stations, high pass
filters to get rid of AM broadcast stations, and just things to peak up
specific frequencies to get rid of images.

I don't think any of that would have helped my Hallicrafters S-120A (the
transistor model), that thing didn't need an antenna to receive endless
local broadcast stations. It would have needed a lot of work with
shielding to make a filter between the antenna and receiver useful, it
wsa just picking up the signals directly.

Sometimes it is a too strong local signal, sometimes it is a badly
designed receiver that will never be fixable.

Michael


The MFJ-956 passive pre-selector is in my tool kit. They also make
several actives. They all cover HF, which includes 24 MHz.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

dave wrote:

The MFJ-956 passive pre-selector is in my tool kit. They also make
several actives. They all cover HF, which includes 24 MHz.


In the opposite direction, you can google or search on eBay for an FM TRAP.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/19/2014 07:19 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
dave wrote:

The MFJ-956 passive pre-selector is in my tool kit. They also make
several actives. They all cover HF, which includes 24 MHz.


In the opposite direction, you can google or search on eBay for an FM TRAP.

Geoff.



I probably have a bunch somewhere from my UHF TV years. I'm on the back
side of Mt. Wilson and RF levels are weak enough that I can get away
with scanner antennas and everything. I'd try the Pads first; get the
dingus into its linear operation range.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:36:00 -0400, Michael Black wrote:

snip
At the same time, that past is gone. I think I'd rather have the
illusion of it, the hope that it could happen, than being older and the
world a lot smaller, and that exotic world completely gone.

Michael

You are so right, Michael. The illusion, the sitting up all night on
Friday and Saturday night, with headphones on, being about 12-17 years
old, hoping for that illusive foreign station, the dial light glowing, my
pencil and pad waiting for something to copy and to send off for a QSL!
Now, my wireless radio will pick up all the stations I want, all over the
world, just like a local.
I still have my restored Lafayette SWL receiver, a big brother look a
like of the S-38. I turn it on every once in a while, hook up a wire
antenna, and relive the past. There is not much there anymore, but still
can MW DX a lot! Here in Texas, it will pick up both coasts pretty
well. I had an old ham repairman wire it to accept a Heathkit Q-
Multiplier that I also have. With that, and the bandspread, and the IF/
RF amplifier, it works very well!

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

sctvguy1 wrote:
You are so right, Michael. The illusion, the sitting up all night on
Friday and Saturday night, with headphones on, being about 12-17 years
old, hoping for that illusive foreign station, the dial light glowing, my
pencil and pad waiting for something to copy and to send off for a QSL!
Now, my wireless radio will pick up all the stations I want, all over the
world, just like a local.

I remember that well too. When I was a teenager someone had a Normande
(probably spelled wrong) AM/FM/Shortwave radio they dropped and it broke
in half. I was able to get it working, and using various things such as my
bed frame, the telephone line, etc, I was able to receive SW signals in a
"garden" (basement) apartment.

Before that I had something, but I don't remember what, maybe a 5 or 6
tube "all american special" with some SW coverage.

I used that until around the time I turned 18, and was given an S-38B.

Unfortuantely I gave that away in my 30's when I started buying "real"
shortwave radios.

I bought one of the first ICF-2010's in the US, brought in a few months
early from Japan. When I got married in 1989, my wife had one too, and
we kept hers, being a few years newer.

My current shortwave radio is a Drake SPR-4, although I have a TR-7
"in the works".

I still have my restored Lafayette SWL receiver, a big brother look a
like of the S-38. I turn it on every once in a while, hook up a wire
antenna, and relive the past. There is not much there anymore, but still
can MW DX a lot! Here in Texas, it will pick up both coasts pretty
well. I had an old ham repairman wire it to accept a Heathkit Q-
Multiplier that I also have. With that, and the bandspread, and the IF/
RF amplifier, it works very well!

I sure miss mine. MW DXing here is worthless because of the high noise.
Although in a previous apartment I was on the edge of a nature preserve,
and with a sheilded MW loop on the fence and the SPR-4, was able to receive
the BBC station on 648kHz, about 3,000 miles away.

Geoff.



--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

sctvguy1 wrote:
You are so right, Michael. The illusion, the sitting up all night on
Friday and Saturday night, with headphones on, being about 12-17 years
old, hoping for that illusive foreign station, the dial light glowing, my
pencil and pad waiting for something to copy and to send off for a QSL!
Now, my wireless radio will pick up all the stations I want, all over the
world, just like a local.

I remember that well too. When I was a teenager someone had a Normande
(probably spelled wrong) AM/FM/Shortwave radio they dropped and it broke
in half. I was able to get it working, and using various things such as my
bed frame, the telephone line, etc, I was able to receive SW signals in a
"garden" (basement) apartment.

Before that I had something, but I don't remember what, maybe a 5 or 6
tube "all american special" with some SW coverage.

I used that until around the time I turned 18, and was given an S-38B.

Unfortuantely I gave that away in my 30's when I started buying "real"
shortwave radios.

I bought one of the first ICF-2010's in the US, brought in a few months
early from Japan. When I got married in 1989, my wife had one too, and
we kept hers, being a few years newer.

My current shortwave radio is a Drake SPR-4, although I have a TR-7
"in the works".

I still have my restored Lafayette SWL receiver, a big brother look a
like of the S-38. I turn it on every once in a while, hook up a wire
antenna, and relive the past. There is not much there anymore, but still
can MW DX a lot! Here in Texas, it will pick up both coasts pretty
well. I had an old ham repairman wire it to accept a Heathkit Q-
Multiplier that I also have. With that, and the bandspread, and the IF/
RF amplifier, it works very well!

I sure miss mine. MW DXing here is worthless because of the high noise.
Although in a previous apartment I was on the edge of a nature preserve,
and with a sheilded MW loop on the fence and the SPR-4, was able to receive
the BBC station on 648kHz, about 3,000 miles away.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

I got started again back in '81 or '82 or so with a Yaesu FRG-7700.

Originally my Dad built me a Knight Kit Star Roamer in 1966 and my first QSL is
from January of 1967.

What got me going again was digital readout... that was the key to it all. No
guessing, find the frequency, and listen.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:47:10 -0400, dxAce wrote:

snip
I got started again back in '81 or '82 or so with a Yaesu FRG-7700.

Originally my Dad built me a Knight Kit Star Roamer in 1966 and my first
QSL is from January of 1967.

What got me going again was digital readout... that was the key to it
all. No guessing, find the frequency, and listen.

I also had a Star Roamer, got it from a radio guy who restores old radios
in Orlando. It was stone deaf!
I started SWL'ing in the 6th grade, around 1963. I got the usual "big"
station QSLs, i.e., BBC, DW, Radio Moscow, Prague, Bulgaria, Spain,
Vatican, Peking, Havana, etc. I still have them in a shoe box. I also
had the Electronics Illustrated "SWL Certificate" that was given by the
magazine, the editor was a bearded guy, can't remember his name.
I got back into SWL when I was in the USAF, stationed at Keesler AFB,
MS. While on TDY with my C-130 crewmates at Nellis AFB, NV, I went and
bought a new FRG-7. I thought it was the greatest thing since
cornflakes! I kept if for a few years, giving it to a MSgt who was
really into SWL, but only had a Panasonic portable. After that, he
always made sure that I had the best inlight lunch(for free) and other
little perks. I miss that radio, it was a classic.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

sctvguy1 wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:47:10 -0400, dxAce wrote:

snip
I got started again back in '81 or '82 or so with a Yaesu FRG-7700.

Originally my Dad built me a Knight Kit Star Roamer in 1966 and my first
QSL is from January of 1967.

What got me going again was digital readout... that was the key to it
all. No guessing, find the frequency, and listen.

I also had a Star Roamer, got it from a radio guy who restores old radios
in Orlando. It was stone deaf!
I started SWL'ing in the 6th grade, around 1963. I got the usual "big"
station QSLs, i.e., BBC, DW, Radio Moscow, Prague, Bulgaria, Spain,
Vatican, Peking, Havana, etc. I still have them in a shoe box. I also
had the Electronics Illustrated "SWL Certificate" that was given by the
magazine, the editor was a bearded guy, can't remember his name.

Wow, I have a couple of those Electronics Illustrated certificates myself.


I got back into SWL when I was in the USAF, stationed at Keesler AFB,
MS. While on TDY with my C-130 crewmates at Nellis AFB, NV, I went and
bought a new FRG-7. I thought it was the greatest thing since
cornflakes! I kept if for a few years, giving it to a MSgt who was
really into SWL, but only had a Panasonic portable. After that, he
always made sure that I had the best inlight lunch(for free) and other
little perks. I miss that radio, it was a classic.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

dxAce wrote:

sctvguy1 wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:47:10 -0400, dxAce wrote:

snip
I got started again back in '81 or '82 or so with a Yaesu FRG-7700.

Originally my Dad built me a Knight Kit Star Roamer in 1966 and my first
QSL is from January of 1967.

What got me going again was digital readout... that was the key to it
all. No guessing, find the frequency, and listen.

I also had a Star Roamer, got it from a radio guy who restores old radios
in Orlando. It was stone deaf!
I started SWL'ing in the 6th grade, around 1963. I got the usual "big"
station QSLs, i.e., BBC, DW, Radio Moscow, Prague, Bulgaria, Spain,
Vatican, Peking, Havana, etc. I still have them in a shoe box. I also
had the Electronics Illustrated "SWL Certificate" that was given by the
magazine, the editor was a bearded guy, can't remember his name.

Wow, I have a couple of those Electronics Illustrated certificates myself.

I'll have to dig them out. I also had the Popular Electronics WPE certificate,
giving me the callsign WPE8JSS, however, it got destroyed or lost somehow.




I got back into SWL when I was in the USAF, stationed at Keesler AFB,
MS. While on TDY with my C-130 crewmates at Nellis AFB, NV, I went and
bought a new FRG-7. I thought it was the greatest thing since
cornflakes! I kept if for a few years, giving it to a MSgt who was
really into SWL, but only had a Panasonic portable. After that, he
always made sure that I had the best inlight lunch(for free) and other
little perks. I miss that radio, it was a classic.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014, sctvguy1 wrote:


I also had a Star Roamer, got it from a radio guy who restores old radios
in Orlando. It was stone deaf!
I started SWL'ing in the 6th grade, around 1963. I got the usual "big"
station QSLs, i.e., BBC, DW, Radio Moscow, Prague, Bulgaria, Spain,
Vatican, Peking, Havana, etc. I still have them in a shoe box. I also
had the Electronics Illustrated "SWL Certificate" that was given by the
magazine, the editor was a bearded guy, can't remember his name.

Was it Tom Kneitel? He certainly wrote for Electronics Illustrated,
stories about Radio Swan and certainly when I started reading it at the
beginning of 1971, he had a sort of Q&A column, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" if I
remember properly, that was more a chance for him to give snarky replies
to letter writers.

The magazines would run plenty of fiction, short stories related to
electronics and radio. One was about some local radio club having a
contest, and someone getting their last QSL card by some freak accident,
someone else challenging them, until he proved that he could hear the
station despite not having a receiver to tune that frequency, by some
scheme that involved NAA at some really low frequency.

But i think Electronics Illustrated took the cake with the contest they
had in 1971. A big announcement, and pages of equipment that would be the
prizes, all that neat stuff when it was all so new to me. And then
followup announcements, you had to get QSL cards from a certain number of
countries or stations.

If they ever announced the winners, I don't remember. At the very best,
it was a low key thing, "here are the winners", not matching the
announcement of the contest.

Of course, the magazine folded into Mechanix Illustrated towards the end
of 1972, a special section for a few months and then it was gone.

Michael

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

dxAce wrote:

sctvguy1 wrote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:47:10 -0400, dxAce wrote:

snip
I got started again back in '81 or '82 or so with a Yaesu FRG-7700.

Originally my Dad built me a Knight Kit Star Roamer in 1966 and my first
QSL is from January of 1967.

What got me going again was digital readout... that was the key to it
all. No guessing, find the frequency, and listen.

I also had a Star Roamer, got it from a radio guy who restores old radios
in Orlando. It was stone deaf!
I started SWL'ing in the 6th grade, around 1963. I got the usual "big"
station QSLs, i.e., BBC, DW, Radio Moscow, Prague, Bulgaria, Spain,
Vatican, Peking, Havana, etc. I still have them in a shoe box. I also
had the Electronics Illustrated "SWL Certificate" that was given by the
magazine, the editor was a bearded guy, can't remember his name.

Wow, I have a couple of those Electronics Illustrated certificates myself.

I have one for hearing 6 Continents, dated February 10, 1970, and one for
hearing 10 Countries, dated May 21, 1968, both signed (stamped) by Robert G.
Beason, editor.

Both measure about 8 x 5.




I got back into SWL when I was in the USAF, stationed at Keesler AFB,
MS. While on TDY with my C-130 crewmates at Nellis AFB, NV, I went and
bought a new FRG-7. I thought it was the greatest thing since
cornflakes! I kept if for a few years, giving it to a MSgt who was
really into SWL, but only had a Panasonic portable. After that, he
always made sure that I had the best inlight lunch(for free) and other
little perks. I miss that radio, it was a classic.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/19/2014 12:49 PM, sctvguy1 wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 22:36:00 -0400, Michael Black wrote:

snip
At the same time, that past is gone. I think I'd rather have the
illusion of it, the hope that it could happen, than being older and the
world a lot smaller, and that exotic world completely gone.

Michael

You are so right, Michael. The illusion, the sitting up all night on
Friday and Saturday night, with headphones on, being about 12-17 years
old, hoping for that illusive foreign station, the dial light glowing, my
pencil and pad waiting for something to copy and to send off for a QSL!
Now, my wireless radio will pick up all the stations I want, all over the
world, just like a local.
I still have my restored Lafayette SWL receiver, a big brother look a
like of the S-38. I turn it on every once in a while, hook up a wire
antenna, and relive the past. There is not much there anymore, but still
can MW DX a lot! Here in Texas, it will pick up both coasts pretty
well. I had an old ham repairman wire it to accept a Heathkit Q-
Multiplier that I also have. With that, and the bandspread, and the IF/
RF amplifier, it works very well!


I enjoy the hardware, antennas, etc. DXing now means picking up a 5 Watt
Siberian digital ham, as opposed to a 500 KW HFBC station. The AM band
is pathetically homogenized. If you don't like Coast to Coast or Redeye
Radio, you are left out. I will always have the BBC World Service, by
hook or by crook.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 3/19/14 15:39 , Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

I remember that well too. When I was a teenager someone had a Normande
(probably spelled wrong) AM/FM/Shortwave radio they dropped and it broke
in half. I was able to get it working, and using various things such as my
bed frame, the telephone line, etc, I was able to receive SW signals in a
"garden" (basement) apartment.




My first was a Hallicrafters S-53A. And a not so long random wire.
That was shortly followed up with a Hammarlund Super Pro (Mil
designation BC-794.) It was my grandfather's amateur radio receiver.
Still have it. And a not so recently acquired S-53.

Antennae were always the issue. Random wires were noisy. But could be
concealed. More efficient, and more noise immune antenna required
visible artifacts which drew fire from the parents. (Her father was a
ham and she hated radio gear. He was an idiot who refused to accept that
I could not listen to WNYW on the AM band in St Louis. Both heartily
believed that listening to stations not local to the area damaged both
the radio and create a fire hazard from the increased current draw
needed to reach out for distant stations. They once caught me listening
to WLS on a Philco Transitone, and about beat me senseless for 'trying
to burn the house down.' Mensa was not an option for either of them.)

When I got out on my own, I set up the antennae I wanted, and using
those same receivers travelled the world through a headset.

Still do. But, I rarely use the Hammar. Mostly it's a Drake R8A,
and/or Lowe HF-150, or AOR 7030 Plus.

Out here in the suburban weeds, noise is low. But up in the North
Woods, it can be eerily quiet. And there's enough realestate to put up
some real antennae.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Fri, 21 Mar 2014, D. Peter Maus wrote:

On 3/19/14 15:39 , Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

I remember that well too. When I was a teenager someone had a Normande
(probably spelled wrong) AM/FM/Shortwave radio they dropped and it broke
in half. I was able to get it working, and using various things such as my
bed frame, the telephone line, etc, I was able to receive SW signals in a
"garden" (basement) apartment.




My first was a Hallicrafters S-53A. And a not so long random wire. That was
shortly followed up with a Hammarlund Super Pro (Mil designation BC-794.) It
was my grandfather's amateur radio receiver. Still have it. And a not so
recently acquired S-53.

What's the S-53? Is it just one of the many variations of the S38 (ie
basically an All AMerican Five that covered shortwave) or is there
something fancier to it? They made so many, it's hard to remember.

Antennae were always the issue. Random wires were noisy. But could be
concealed. More efficient, and more noise immune antenna required visible
artifacts which drew fire from the parents. (Her father was a ham and she
hated radio gear. He was an idiot who refused to accept that I could not
listen to WNYW on the AM band in St Louis. Both heartily believed that
listening to stations not local to the area damaged both the radio and create
a fire hazard from the increased current draw needed to reach out for distant
stations. They once caught me listening to WLS on a Philco Transitone, and
about beat me senseless for 'trying to burn the house down.' Mensa was not an
option for either of them.)

I think for many people, they don't even tune at random, or maybe
specifically at night. They tune in the stations they know are local, and
forget the rest.

One local station carried "Coast to Coast" and every time the station
changed format, and finally went under, locals would say "I hope CJAD
grabs Coast to Coast", it being the other AM station that might carry it.
And it did. It works great for the local stations, but it really kills
the overnight listening, the same program up and down the band.
Admittedly, it wasn't that different back when Larry King ruled the night,
but it's gotten worse since.

If people did some tuning at night, they would have found how easy it was
to get the program. I'd much rather have the choice. When Larry King was
on, I could listen to it, or the local overnight station, or something
else. Now there isn't much else.


When I got out on my own, I set up the antennae I wanted, and using those
same receivers travelled the world through a headset.

Still do. But, I rarely use the Hammar. Mostly it's a Drake R8A, and/or
Lowe HF-150, or AOR 7030 Plus.

Out here in the suburban weeds, noise is low. But up in the North Woods, it
can be eerily quiet. And there's enough realestate to put up some real
antennae.

It's amazing how much noisier things have gotten in forty years. I had
the SP-600 and a length of wire just hanging off the back. Not great, but
I just remember endless signals. If I try any of the current portable
radios inside, I don't hear much, until I move towards the window, where
the signals peak up. So much electronic junk that's now become common,
nost of it digital in some way, and many using switching supplies.

Pretty much none of it was there in 1971 when I first listened to shortwave.

Michael

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

Michael Black wrote:

On Fri, 21 Mar 2014, D. Peter Maus wrote:

On 3/19/14 15:39 , Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

I remember that well too. When I was a teenager someone had a Normande
(probably spelled wrong) AM/FM/Shortwave radio they dropped and it broke
in half. I was able to get it working, and using various things such as my
bed frame, the telephone line, etc, I was able to receive SW signals in a
"garden" (basement) apartment.




My first was a Hallicrafters S-53A. And a not so long random wire. That was
shortly followed up with a Hammarlund Super Pro (Mil designation BC-794.) It
was my grandfather's amateur radio receiver. Still have it. And a not so
recently acquired S-53.

What's the S-53?

Just Google "s-53 radio" and you'll soon find out.

Is it just one of the many variations of the S38 (ie
basically an All AMerican Five that covered shortwave) or is there
something fancier to it? They made so many, it's hard to remember.

Antennae were always the issue. Random wires were noisy. But could be
concealed. More efficient, and more noise immune antenna required visible
artifacts which drew fire from the parents. (Her father was a ham and she
hated radio gear. He was an idiot who refused to accept that I could not
listen to WNYW on the AM band in St Louis. Both heartily believed that
listening to stations not local to the area damaged both the radio and create
a fire hazard from the increased current draw needed to reach out for distant
stations. They once caught me listening to WLS on a Philco Transitone, and
about beat me senseless for 'trying to burn the house down.' Mensa was not an
option for either of them.)

I think for many people, they don't even tune at random, or maybe
specifically at night. They tune in the stations they know are local, and
forget the rest.

One local station carried "Coast to Coast" and every time the station
changed format, and finally went under, locals would say "I hope CJAD
grabs Coast to Coast", it being the other AM station that might carry it.
And it did. It works great for the local stations, but it really kills
the overnight listening, the same program up and down the band.
Admittedly, it wasn't that different back when Larry King ruled the night,
but it's gotten worse since.

If people did some tuning at night, they would have found how easy it was
to get the program. I'd much rather have the choice. When Larry King was
on, I could listen to it, or the local overnight station, or something
else. Now there isn't much else.

When I got out on my own, I set up the antennae I wanted, and using those
same receivers travelled the world through a headset.

Still do. But, I rarely use the Hammar. Mostly it's a Drake R8A, and/or
Lowe HF-150, or AOR 7030 Plus.

Out here in the suburban weeds, noise is low. But up in the North Woods, it
can be eerily quiet. And there's enough realestate to put up some real
antennae.

It's amazing how much noisier things have gotten in forty years. I had
the SP-600 and a length of wire just hanging off the back. Not great, but
I just remember endless signals. If I try any of the current portable
radios inside, I don't hear much, until I move towards the window, where
the signals peak up. So much electronic junk that's now become common,
nost of it digital in some way, and many using switching supplies.

Pretty much none of it was there in 1971 when I first listened to shortwave.

Michael

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Fri, 21 Mar 2014, dxAce wrote:


My first was a Hallicrafters S-53A. And a not so long random wire. That was
shortly followed up with a Hammarlund Super Pro (Mil designation BC-794.) It
was my grandfather's amateur radio receiver. Still have it. And a not so
recently acquired S-53.

What's the S-53?

Just Google "s-53 radio" and you'll soon find out.

Except now that there was actually a thread with conversation on topic
here, I thought I'd ask. I can look it up, but I wanted to see what Peter
said.

This newsgroup really went downhill in the days of "RHF" with his
continuous spew of links to elsewhere, the only way it recovers is if
people actually talk about things relevant to shortwave here, rather than
constantly sending people elsewhere.

Michael

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On Friday, March 21, 2014 7:35:41 PM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 21 Mar 2014, dxAce wrote:





My first was a Hallicrafters S-53A. And a not so long random wire. That was

shortly followed up with a Hammarlund Super Pro (Mil designation BC-794.) It

was my grandfather's amateur radio receiver. Still have it. And a not so

recently acquired S-53.



What's the S-53?



Just Google "s-53 radio" and you'll soon find out.



Except now that there was actually a thread with conversation on topic

here, I thought I'd ask. I can look it up, but I wanted to see what Peter

said.



This newsgroup really went downhill in the days of "RHF" with his

continuous spew of links to elsewhere, the only way it recovers is if

people actually talk about things relevant to shortwave here, rather than

constantly sending people elsewhere.



Michael

Somebody obviously must have sent RHF to a faraway place! He didn't make any postings in a long time.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 3/21/14 18:35 , Michael Black wrote:

My first was a Hallicrafters S-53A. And a not so long random
wire. That was shortly followed up with a Hammarlund Super Pro
(Mil designation BC-794.) It was my grandfather's amateur radio
receiver. Still have it. And a not so recently acquired S-53.

What's the S-53?


Actually it's an S-53A. 550khz-54Mhz, 8 tube, fixed BFO, Noise
limiter (such that it was), electrical bandspread, sliderule dial. Much
more than an S-38. A bit wide, but nice audio. Phono input. There was
something about hearing a Cardinals' game that was unique. Much more fun
than listening on a transistor.

It dated from 1950-58. Typical Halli construction. About the same size
as S-38. The differences between S-53 and S53A were the power
transformer and the IF cans. "A" was a 120v transformer, and minature
cans. Non-"A" models had universal power transformer, and full sized cans.

It takes either a random wire against a ground, or a ladder line with
a ground. Like the Hammarlund, it's got more sensitivity than can
actually be used, and a decent, if not exemplary noise floor, so during
the 60's and 70s, with the lower ambient noise and plethora of booming
signals, there was LOT to listen to with a simple wire.

Today, with a random wire on an Un-Un, or a shielded loop, it's
decent. But the lack of signals make things a lot less fun.

FM radio reception at ~24MHz?
 

On 03/24/2014 09:15 AM, D. Peter Maus wrote:
On 3/21/14 18:35 , Michael Black wrote:

My first was a Hallicrafters S-53A. And a not so long random
wire. That was shortly followed up with a Hammarlund Super Pro
(Mil designation BC-794.) It was my grandfather's amateur radio
receiver. Still have it. And a not so recently acquired S-53.

What's the S-53?


Actually it's an S-53A. 550khz-54Mhz, 8 tube, fixed BFO, Noise
limiter (such that it was), electrical bandspread, sliderule dial. Much
more than an S-38. A bit wide, but nice audio. Phono input. There was
something about hearing a Cardinals' game that was unique. Much more fun
than listening on a transistor.

It dated from 1950-58. Typical Halli construction. About the same size
as S-38. The differences between S-53 and S53A were the power
transformer and the IF cans. "A" was a 120v transformer, and minature
cans. Non-"A" models had universal power transformer, and full sized cans.

It takes either a random wire against a ground, or a ladder line with
a ground. Like the Hammarlund, it's got more sensitivity than can
actually be used, and a decent, if not exemplary noise floor, so during
the 60's and 70s, with the lower ambient noise and plethora of booming
signals, there was LOT to listen to with a simple wire.

Today, with a random wire on an Un-Un, or a shielded loop, it's
decent. But the lack of signals make things a lot less fun.



Noise limiters in 1950 were clipper diodes, same exact principle today.
Just like 1n914s on the output of your STL to keep the Overmodulation
lamp from going off.