UPDATE: "no ground" improvement.
 

It took me all of ten minutes to drive a 4' steel rod into the
ground outside my window, and clamp my ground lead securely to it, then
bury it below grade. My ground path is now a measurable 30" to solid
earth ground, and the improvement in MW is very noticeable. Still "flip
a coin" whether improved or not on SW bands, but tonight will tell.
Thanks to those who reinforced for me what I already knew, and was
trying to "get by" without.

Tony


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

It's always nice to hear that someone has succeeded with a worthy endeavor -
WTG ^ 5.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:16:22 -0400, Tony Meloche
wrote:


It took me all of ten minutes to drive a 4' steel rod into the
ground outside my window, and clamp my ground lead securely to it, then
bury it below grade. My ground path is now a measurable 30" to solid
earth ground, and the improvement in MW is very noticeable. Still "flip
a coin" whether improved or not on SW bands, but tonight will tell.
Thanks to those who reinforced for me what I already knew, and was
trying to "get by" without.

Tony

Though copper conducts better, even steel should be helpful.
Given they both oxidize, who knows whats better after a year or so.

"mike" wrote in message
...


Though copper conducts better, even steel should be helpful.
Given they both oxidize, who knows whats better after a year or so.


I don't think oxidation is a big factor. Rusty steel or green copper are
still probably better conductors than the surrounding soil. Even if the
stake were completely insulated, there still would be AC capacitive coupling
to the earth.

Frank Dresser

Frank Dresser wrote:

"mike" wrote in message
...


Though copper conducts better, even steel should be helpful.
Given they both oxidize, who knows whats better after a year or so.


I don't think oxidation is a big factor. Rusty steel or green copper are
still probably better conductors than the surrounding soil. Even if the
stake were completely insulated, there still would be AC capacitive coupling
to the earth.

Frank Dresser



Frank's thought was pretty much the same as mine. The most conductive
of all metals is silver, but you don't see many people arguing to use a
4'-8' length of silver rod because it "works even better than copper"
:D

I spent the evening listening to a wide variety of things, and my
results are little changed from this morning: On the tropical bands, I
do notice less "garbage" than before, though there is still plenty of
garbage there (the tropical bands are the tropical bands, after all).
On higher SW frequencies,
I don't detect much difference, but for sure it isn't hurting, and it
would stay connected for that reason alone. On MW, no question: It
*really* helps.
My thanks to all who responded.

Tony


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

I've always been taught that gold was the best conductor!

Larry

Larry Echols wrote:

I've always been taught that gold was the best conductor!

Larry

Well, you have always been taught incorrectly. Gold is only about 2/3
that of copper and 1/2 that of silver.

Dale W4OP

"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...


Larry Echols wrote:

I've always been taught that gold was the best conductor!

Larry

Well, you have always been taught incorrectly. Gold is only about 2/3
that of copper and 1/2 that of silver.

Dale W4OP


Well, more or less. But more importantly, conductivity isn't a factor for
99% of the work we do. All the conductors work well enough, and other
factors, such as availibility, durability and ease of handling are the most
important. I'm sure stainless steel wire could make a fine SWL antenna or
ground wire, even though it doesn't conduct electricity as well as copper.

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/ele...ty/resistance/

Frank Dresser

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...


Larry Echols wrote:

I've always been taught that gold was the best conductor!

Larry

Well, you have always been taught incorrectly. Gold is only about 2/3
that of copper and 1/2 that of silver.

Dale W4OP


Well, more or less. But more importantly, conductivity isn't a factor for
99% of the work we do. All the conductors work well enough, and other
factors, such as availibility, durability and ease of handling are the most
important. I'm sure stainless steel wire could make a fine SWL antenna or
ground wire, even though it doesn't conduct electricity as well as copper.

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/ele...ty/resistance/

Frank Dresser

For HF, I totally agree. My passion is 1296 MHz Moonbounce- and silver plated
cavities are a must for high efficiency.

Dale W4OP

In article , Frank
Dresser says...


"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...


Larry Echols wrote:

I've always been taught that gold was the best conductor!

Larry

Well, you have always been taught incorrectly. Gold is only about 2/3
that of copper and 1/2 that of silver.

Dale W4OP


Well, more or less. But more importantly, conductivity isn't a factor for
99% of the work we do. All the conductors work well enough, and other
factors, such as availibility, durability and ease of handling are the most
important. I'm sure stainless steel wire could make a fine SWL antenna or
ground wire, even though it doesn't conduct electricity as well as copper.

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/ele...ty/resistance/

Frank Dresser


Damn...you would have to mention steel. I put up a 50' random with made of
steel rather than copper as my other copper random wire stretches.

Would you advise replacing the steel with copper wire? This is a newbie
question.

thanks

elfa

Well, more or less. But more importantly, conductivity isn't a factor for
99% of the work we do. All the conductors work well enough, and other
factors, such as availibility, durability and ease of handling are the most
important. I'm sure stainless steel wire could make a fine SWL antenna or
ground wire, even though it doesn't conduct electricity as well as copper.

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/ele...ty/resistance/

Frank Dresser

Damn...you would have to mention steel. I put up a 50' random with made of
steel rather than copper as my other copper random wire stretches.

Would you advise replacing the steel with copper wire? This is a newbie
question.

thanks

elfa


It shoudld be fine. The "whip" antenna in portables is made of
steel, and most rooftop antennas are made of aluminum.

Tony


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"elfa" wrote in message
...


Damn...you would have to mention steel. I put up a 50' random with made
of
steel rather than copper as my other copper random wire stretches.

Would you advise replacing the steel with copper wire? This is a newbie
question.

thanks

elfa


Steel wire is fine. Conductivity is more than adequate. Doing something to
slow down the development of rust at the connections might be worthwhile.

Frank Dresser

"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...

For HF, I totally agree. My passion is 1296 MHz Moonbounce- and silver
plated
cavities are a must for high efficiency.

Dale W4OP



Sure. Skin effect is a big deal at 100 times a typical SW frequency. It's
also important inside IF and some RF transformers. Have you ever seen ads
for those expensive audio cables in which they make a big deal the skin
effect? To paraphrase some comedian -- "Being an audiophool is God's way of
saying you have too much money".

Frank Dresser

Tony Meloche wrote:

Frank's thought was pretty much the same as mine. The most conductive
of all metals is silver, but you don't see many people arguing to use a
4'-8' length of silver rod because it "works even better than copper"
:D

During WWII the 'Manhattan' (atomic bomb) project needed some very large
electromagnets for a device that refined Uranium-235. There was a
shortage of copper so they appropriated *all* the silver in Fort Knox to
make the wire for the magnets. They returned every ounce of it.

See:

http://www.cosmos-club.org/journals/2002/larson.html


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Frank Dresser wrote:

"elfa" wrote in message
...


Damn...you would have to mention steel. I put up a 50' random with made
of
steel rather than copper as my other copper random wire stretches.

Would you advise replacing the steel with copper wire? This is a newbie
question.

thanks

elfa


Steel wire is fine. Conductivity is more than adequate. Doing something to
slow down the development of rust at the connections might be worthwhile.

It's difficult to make a lasting connection to steel wire other than
welding or brazing to it. Mechanical connections will eventually develop
too much resistance (oxidation/rust) unless they are completely sealed
in a material such as epoxy or polyester resin. The best way to use
steel wire as an antenna is to use a continuous length, all the way to
the radio without any wire connections outside.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

ground is ground the whole world round......

Hi,

How about using the ground in a 3 prong electrical socket???? Better than
nothing??? Dangerous??? I'm in a high rise

--
Take Care
Abb N

"AbbN" wrote in message
...
Hi,

How about using the ground in a 3 prong electrical socket???? Better than
nothing??? Dangerous??? I'm in a high rise


In those circumstances, it's a crapshoot. Often connecting to a building
ground like that will add more noise than signal. If you do want to give it
a go, connect to the screw that holds the plate on, don't just stuff a wire
in the hole, as it can find it's way to the hot side.

If you do want to give it a go, connect to the screw that holds the plate
on, don't just stuff a wire in the hole, as it can find it's way to the hot
side.

Good idea re the screw, if the outlet box is metal and if metal conduit is used
to house the wiring. Whatever is done, if it works, when giving it a try, then
get a cheap plug from Ace. Remove the ground pin and use it as a connector on
the jumper wire from the radio.

73,
Bill, K5BY

Brenda Ann wrote:

"AbbN" wrote in message
...
Hi,

How about using the ground in a 3 prong electrical socket???? Better than
nothing??? Dangerous??? I'm in a high rise


In those circumstances, it's a crapshoot. Often connecting to a building
ground like that will add more noise than signal. If you do want to give it
a go, connect to the screw that holds the plate on, don't just stuff a wire
in the hole, as it can find it's way to the hot side.

If the building has a steel frame, you might do better to connect to the
structure than the electrical ground system.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:33:19 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote:


"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...

For HF, I totally agree. My passion is 1296 MHz Moonbounce- and silver
plated
cavities are a must for high efficiency.

Dale W4OP

Got news for you. skin depth IS a big deal at SW freuquencies as well.
For copper is it roughy 6.6/(f^.5) in cm....

The skin depth at 1 Mhz in copper is a whopping .066 mm. That is about
2 mils (1/500th of an inch). That is why copperweld wire (copper
over steel) works as well as pure copper for an antenna.

And yes, it is a bigger deal 1Ghz, but a 1 micron silver plate is
about all it takes. Skin depth in copper at that frequency is .0021
mm, or about .07 mils, one 15,000th of an inch in copper, in Silver it
would be more like 1/20,000th of an inch.

Even at 60hz, it doesn't pay to use a conductor larger then an inch in
diameter. Skin depth at 60Hz in copper is .85cm
Sure. Skin effect is a big deal at 100 times a typical SW frequency. It's
also important inside IF and some RF transformers. Have you ever seen ads
for those expensive audio cables in which they make a big deal the skin
effect? To paraphrase some comedian -- "Being an audiophool is God's way of
saying you have too much money".

Frank Dresser

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:37:51 -0400, "AbbN"
wrote:

Hi,

How about using the ground in a 3 prong electrical socket???? Better than
nothing??? Dangerous??? I'm in a high rise
These are often very poor radio frequency grounds. A DC ground, or
for that matter a 60Hz ground has a very large skin depth (about .85cm
at 60Hz), so the entire conductor is useful, and the DC resistance to
ground is about all you have to worry about.

A good DC or even 60Hz ground can be an awful Radio frequency ground.
Even at 1 Mhz, the skin depth is a small fraction of a 1 mm, so all of
the corrosion and garbage occurs on the part of the conductor you
need. In addition the length of wire to the physical ground can be
very large, and even a straight wire has inductance, so long ground
line in addition to having poor conductivity, may also have
substantial inductance. Both make for a high impedance path to ground,
which is the last thing you want.

If it is a steel frame building, the building frame is probably a
much better RF ground then the ground lead in an outlet.

"matt weber" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:33:19 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote:


"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...

For HF, I totally agree. My passion is 1296 MHz Moonbounce- and silver
plated
cavities are a must for high efficiency.

Dale W4OP

Got news for you. skin depth IS a big deal at SW freuquencies as well.
For copper is it roughy 6.6/(f^.5) in cm....

The skin depth at 1 Mhz in copper is a whopping .066 mm. That is about
2 mils (1/500th of an inch). That is why copperweld wire (copper
over steel) works as well as pure copper for an antenna.

Well, thanks for the newsflash. I guess that means that skin effect isn't
worth worrying about for 99% of the work SWLs do. Like antennas and ground
wires.


And yes, it is a bigger deal 1Ghz, but a 1 micron silver plate is
about all it takes. Skin depth in copper at that frequency is .0021
mm, or about .07 mils, one 15,000th of an inch in copper, in Silver it
would be more like 1/20,000th of an inch.


Wow. That must mean that skin effect makes a difference in the hair fine
wires oftentimes found in IF and RF transformers used in SW radios. Maybe
1% of SWLs will be dealing with such things.

Even at 60hz, it doesn't pay to use a conductor larger then an inch in
diameter. Skin depth at 60Hz in copper is .85cm
Sure. Skin effect is a big deal at 100 times a typical SW frequency.
It's
also important inside IF and some RF transformers. Have you ever seen ads
for those expensive audio cables in which they make a big deal the skin
effect? To paraphrase some comedian -- "Being an audiophool is God's way
of
saying you have too much money".

Frank Dresser



Frank Dresser

"matt weber" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:37:51 -0400, "AbbN"
wrote:

Hi,

How about using the ground in a 3 prong electrical socket???? Better than
nothing??? Dangerous??? I'm in a high rise
These are often very poor radio frequency grounds. A DC ground, or
for that matter a 60Hz ground has a very large skin depth (about .85cm
at 60Hz), so the entire conductor is useful, and the DC resistance to
ground is about all you have to worry about.

A good DC or even 60Hz ground can be an awful Radio frequency ground.
Even at 1 Mhz, the skin depth is a small fraction of a 1 mm, so all of
the corrosion and garbage occurs on the part of the conductor you
need.


Wait a minute. Are you saying the depth of the skin effect is the same for
poor conductors as good ones? Wouldn't the increased skin depth of a poor
conductor get the current down to the good conductor?


In addition the length of wire to the physical ground can be
very large, and even a straight wire has inductance, so long ground
line in addition to having poor conductivity, may also have
substantial inductance. Both make for a high impedance path to ground,
which is the last thing you want.

Inductance and capacitance! And they work together in such a way that if
your ground conductor is 1/4 wave or an odd multiple of a 1/4 wave it
presents such a high impedance that it isn't an RF ground at all :-(.

But wait. It still might work just fine, because now it's a counterpoise
:-)!



If it is a steel frame building, the building frame is probably a
much better RF ground then the ground lead in an outlet.

Steel frame buildings are almost always commercial buildings. Shouldn't you
ask the building supervisor to help find the framing and punch a hole
through the wallboard? And wouldn't the steel beams have a thicker buildup
of rust and paint and crud than galvanized steel conduit?

To the original poster, I say -- Experiment safely and keep track of your
results!

Frank Dresser