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Hey HFguy,
Why are you obsessed with promoting a scam? For that matter, why do you post so often in this newsgroup? If what was posted is technically erroneous, then please feel free to discuss technical errors. Please demonstrate how a plug-in protector can protect from both common mode and differential mode transients. This assumes you reply also knowing what common and differential mode transients are. Technical concepts taught in a first year electrical course and essential to understanding if and why a surge protector is effective. Demonstrated from manufacturer datasheets is that MOVs self destruct when grossly undersized; when operating beyond specifications. Posted previously was specifications for a 39 joule MOV - that would protect as long as a transient current was under 4500 amps. Excessive currents could vaporize (explode) a grossly undersized MOV. Posted previously was the exponential relationship between joules and MOV life expectancy. MOVs, properly installed, can protect from tens or hundreds of transients without exploding. MOVs, properly installed, degrade (do not explode) as demonstrated by chart at: http://www.worldproducts.com/MOVPeakPulse.htm Why would anyone recommend a grossly overpriced surge protector that explode rather than provide effective protection? Why would anyone recommend spending tens of times more money per protected appliance for a surge protector that is also grossly undersized? Simple foolishness. It would be improper to let those technical lies go unchallenged. Any surge protector that is suppose to explode- to provide sacrificial protection - is simply ineffective. But then that is obvious. It has no dedicated connection to earth ground AND it avoids all discussion about earthing. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which others also forget to mention. But when selling ineffective surge protectors, then undersize so that the technically deceived will recommend this overpriced and ineffective product. How to increase sales? Undersize it so that it explodes - the A Team solution. And avoid all mention of earthing. How ineffective protector manufacturers promote their myths at excessive profit. Exposed in this thread are those myths and the deceived who would promote those myths. HFguy wrote: Hey w-tom, Why are you obsessed with posting countless diatribes on the subject of surge protectors on dozens of newsgroups? Are you a shill for the whole house surge protector industry? |
Low pressure inert gas devices were the original surge
protectors. Like most shunt mode protector devices, they remain as an open circuit until a transient voltage becomes too high. Then like MOVs, they become short circuits to shunt that transient to earth. As noted previously, these principles of protection were well understood and routinely installed in the 1930s. Back then, a surge protector was typically a low pressure, inert gas discharge tube (GDT) similar to an NE-2 neon glow lamp (often still found inside lighted switches). In fact, some radios used NE-2 on the antenna to protect RF amplifier transistors. Unfortunately Gas Discharge Tubes (GDTs) degrade quickly with each use. Anode would vaporize into the gas, causing threshold voltage to rise with each use. IOW like MOVs, they degraded; but even faster. By the 1970s, MOVs (or equivalent) were replacing GDTs. Most every home had something equivalent provided free by the telco: http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg This Western Electric device was different from MOVs in that, like GDTs, they were low capacitance devices. Two cylinder cartridges called 'the carbons' were underneath those hex bolts heads and could be replaced. Today, telcos have long since obsoleted the carbons with a semiconductor device. Both GDTs and 'the carbons' would degrade without the human knowledge. Semiconductors either work properly everytime or become short circuits. Either they work or report their failure by shorting out the phone line. Therefore GDTs have been obsoleted twice over. For AC electric, a semiconductor type of 'whole house' protector is available - albeit more expensive. The best 'whole house' (AC electric) protector for the buck uses MOVs since destructive surges are so infrequent and MOVs (properly sized) have such long life expectancy. GDTs, in the meantime, are still used in special applications such as commercial radio facilities. But even electric utilities today use MOVs for substation protection. GDTs, MOVs, or semiconductor protectors - all are only as effective as the central earth ground. That essential earthing principle, demonstrated by Franklin in 1752 and widely installed in the 1930s, has not changed. No what what the technology, a surge protector was only as effective as its earth ground. Barry OGrady wrote: What about gas arrestors? -Barry |
w_tom wrote:
Name of manufacturer and model number? Where were the important leads to earth ground. It only had two leads? Rather surprised so little knowledge here about how effective protection has long been installed. Manufacturer: Sycom Model: SYC-120/240TC 150,000amp surge current capacity. The wire to ground was a given, so I didn't mention it. mike -- __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / / / /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ / /_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ ..let the cat out to reply.. |
That protector does claim to be a 'whole house' protector,
but also makes claims that imply 50,000 amps of that claimed 150,000 amps really provides the protection. Again, specs or even a wiring diagram, is so unavailable making it difficult to say what this SYC-120/240TC surge protector really does: http://www.lightningrodparts.com/surge.html Basically, it appears to be 'whole house' protector. But is also says, for example, that an indicator lamp can detect a missing ground. Wrong. It cannot possibly detect a missing 'earth' ground - the critically essential ground. It could detect a missing safety ground connection - which is not relevant to surge protection. And so they forget to mention which ground. That makes me suspicious even though I suspect it is an effective 'whole house' protector. Also missing is its joules ratings - another reason to be suspicious. In that cited URL is another protector that says Keep the wires as short as possible and avoid sharp bends and kinks. Wire routing that is very important for effective surge protection - and that ineffective protector would rather not discuss. But this telephone protector also does not say which ground. Not any ground is effective protection. For example grounding to dirt inside a flower box is not effective surge protection. But it too can be an electrical ground - but not earth ground. This is fundamental. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not any ground. Single point earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. Benchmarks in surge protection make that point often, repeatedly, and obnoxiously - because it is that essential to selling effective surge protectors. Plug-in surge protectors and UPSes do not appear on the list of effective protectors. Why? Their "ground" is not central earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. m II wrote: Manufacturer: Sycom Model: SYC-120/240TC 150,000amp surge current capacity. The wire to ground was a given, so I didn't mention it. |
More crap from the electric troll.
"w_tom" wrote in message ... That protector does claim to be a 'whole house' protector, but also makes claims that imply 50,000 amps of that claimed 150,000 amps really provides the protection. Again, specs or even a wiring diagram, is so unavailable making it difficult to say what this SYC-120/240TC surge protector really does: http://www.lightningrodparts.com/surge.html Basically, it appears to be 'whole house' protector. But is also says, for example, that an indicator lamp can detect a missing ground. Wrong. It cannot possibly detect a missing 'earth' ground - the critically essential ground. It could detect a missing safety ground connection - which is not relevant to surge protection. And so they forget to mention which ground. That makes me suspicious even though I suspect it is an effective 'whole house' protector. Also missing is its joules ratings - another reason to be suspicious. In that cited URL is another protector that says Keep the wires as short as possible and avoid sharp bends and kinks. Wire routing that is very important for effective surge protection - and that ineffective protector would rather not discuss. But this telephone protector also does not say which ground. Not any ground is effective protection. For example grounding to dirt inside a flower box is not effective surge protection. But it too can be an electrical ground - but not earth ground. This is fundamental. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not any ground. Single point earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. Benchmarks in surge protection make that point often, repeatedly, and obnoxiously - because it is that essential to selling effective surge protectors. Plug-in surge protectors and UPSes do not appear on the list of effective protectors. Why? Their "ground" is not central earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. m II wrote: Manufacturer: Sycom Model: SYC-120/240TC 150,000amp surge current capacity. The wire to ground was a given, so I didn't mention it. |
w_tom wrote:
Wire routing that is very important for effective surge protection - and that ineffective protector would rather not discuss. But this telephone protector also does not say which ground. Not any ground is effective protection. For example grounding to dirt inside a flower box is not effective surge protection. But it too can be an electrical ground - but not earth ground. This is fundamental. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not any ground. Single point earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. Benchmarks in surge protection make that point often, repeatedly, and obnoxiously - because it is that essential to selling effective surge protectors. Plug-in surge protectors and UPSes do not appear on the list of effective protectors. Why? Their "ground" is not central earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. In any electrical code that I'm aware of, ground *means* earth ground. In this neck of the woods it is defined as: A connection to earth using a grounding electrode. I don't know what other kinds of 'any ground' can possibly be. It's either a ground or it isn't. mike -- __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / / / /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ / /_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ ..let the cat out to reply.. |
The safety ground is typically a bus bar in main disconnect
box. The central point at which neutral and safety ground wires meet. This is a ground different from the earthing rod, which is different from a receptacle safety ground, which is different from the computer chassis ground, which is different from motherboard ground, which is different from the entertainment system single point ground to eliminate hum between various stereo components. All may be interconnected - but not by a perfect conductor. And all serve different functions. Therefore all are considered different grounds. Take a 50 foot connection from breaker box to receptacle using a 20 amp wire. That safety ground wire may be 0.2 ohms 'resistance'. However to transients, the same wire may measure 130 ohms 'impedance'. If trying to earth a trivial 100 amp transient, then the wire would be something less than 13,000 volts from plug-in surge protector to breaker box ground bus. Clearly wire impedance makes that receptacle ground all but no connection to earth. Earth ground and safety ground in that wall receptacle are not same. Therein also lies reason for a single point ground between stereo components and why breaker box ground is not same as earth ground. Wire has electrical characteristics that make each interconnected ground different. Wire becomes an electronic component when discussing transient protection. For human safety, the single point ground of significance is inside a breaker box. To eliminate hums in stereo equipment, the single point ground is where all component grounds meet. To protect computer motherboard from static shock interruptions, a motherboard ground connects to chassis ground at only one point. To discharge a static electric charged human is a ground located underneath the shoe (no earth ground involved in that static electric discharge). So that various signals don't interfere, then A/D converters have separate analog and digital grounds - that meet at a single point typically at the A/D converter. For surge protection, the single point ground of significance is central earth ground. Many grounds. All different even if interconnected. Again, every ground may be interconnected but each ground is different because wire is an electronic component. Distance also determines quality of that earthing - because again, wire is an electronic component. Plug-in protectors do not 'shunt' a less than 10 foot connection from each incoming power wire to earth ground. Therefore they cannot earth that incoming wire. Distance in that 50 foot wire at 130 ohms impedance demonstrates why, for example, wall receptacles are not earth ground. m II wrote: In any electrical code that I'm aware of, ground *means* earth ground. In this neck of the woods it is defined as: A connection to earth using a grounding electrode. I don't know what other kinds of 'any ground' can possibly be. It's either a ground or it isn't. mike |
Another meaningless message from the electric troll. Plonk.
"w_tom" wrote in message ... The safety ground is typically a bus bar in main disconnect box. The central point at which neutral and safety ground wires meet. This is a ground different from the earthing rod, which is different from a receptacle safety ground, which is different from the computer chassis ground, which is different from motherboard ground, which is different from the entertainment system single point ground to eliminate hum between various stereo components. All may be interconnected - but not by a perfect conductor. And all serve different functions. Therefore all are considered different grounds. Take a 50 foot connection from breaker box to receptacle using a 20 amp wire. That safety ground wire may be 0.2 ohms 'resistance'. However to transients, the same wire may measure 130 ohms 'impedance'. If trying to earth a trivial 100 amp transient, then the wire would be something less than 13,000 volts from plug-in surge protector to breaker box ground bus. Clearly wire impedance makes that receptacle ground all but no connection to earth. Earth ground and safety ground in that wall receptacle are not same. Therein also lies reason for a single point ground between stereo components and why breaker box ground is not same as earth ground. Wire has electrical characteristics that make each interconnected ground different. Wire becomes an electronic component when discussing transient protection. For human safety, the single point ground of significance is inside a breaker box. To eliminate hums in stereo equipment, the single point ground is where all component grounds meet. To protect computer motherboard from static shock interruptions, a motherboard ground connects to chassis ground at only one point. To discharge a static electric charged human is a ground located underneath the shoe (no earth ground involved in that static electric discharge). So that various signals don't interfere, then A/D converters have separate analog and digital grounds - that meet at a single point typically at the A/D converter. For surge protection, the single point ground of significance is central earth ground. Many grounds. All different even if interconnected. Again, every ground may be interconnected but each ground is different because wire is an electronic component. Distance also determines quality of that earthing - because again, wire is an electronic component. Plug-in protectors do not 'shunt' a less than 10 foot connection from each incoming power wire to earth ground. Therefore they cannot earth that incoming wire. Distance in that 50 foot wire at 130 ohms impedance demonstrates why, for example, wall receptacles are not earth ground. m II wrote: In any electrical code that I'm aware of, ground *means* earth ground. In this neck of the woods it is defined as: A connection to earth using a grounding electrode. I don't know what other kinds of 'any ground' can possibly be. It's either a ground or it isn't. mike |
Barry: That used to be known as the MEN system, as in multiple earth
neutral. In this PC world it had to be changed to PERSON, as in place earth return strap on neutral. Oh my Deity! That's a good one! Bill, K5BY |
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