On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 0:15:46 -0600, tommyknocker wrote
(in message ):

As a result of recent events, I have two surge protectors that no longer
function without putting out loud noises on HF. I found that the $5
surge protector that my Yaesu was plugged in to was making a loud
whistling noise which was covered up by the louder warbling noise being
made by the Belkin I had my computer plugged into. So I decided to break
them open to see what was inside. The easiest was Old El Cheapo, held
together with screws. Inside was a length of wire, a switch and ONE disc
capacitor wired into six plugs. IMO that's little better than a plain
old power strip. The Belkin had no screws, so it took a little longer to
crack. The results: a switch, two LEDs ("protected" and "grounded"), an
inductor coil, a couple resistors and transistors, and about 9 or 10
disc capacitors in series. In October 2002 the Belkin cost me $40. I'm
hard pressed to say that it was money well spent, if all that's in there
are some capacitors and resistors. Question: are surge protectors worth
it if all they are is just a bunch of capacitors?


I know that my $40
surge protector apparently rolled over and died when hit with a real
surge.


Durn betcha!

It did exactly as it should have and blew out the (I'm reasonably sure)
capacitors (RadioShack used to carry them, btw)).

That's why they are "cheap" - as I said earlier - they self-destruct rather
than your computers or radio gear self-destructing.

Stinger mentioned Standby Power Supplies. I have a 500 watt APC SPS that was
pretty decently priced and my wife has one of the itsy-bitsy SPS Power Strips
(APC Office 280) and I've seen these "PowerSupply in a Power Strip" /very/
cheap lately - 40U$-55U$.

My wife and I used to run to the front door when the Back-Up 500 signaled
with a short beep; usually we could get to the front porch to hear the
transformer self-destruct.

Sometimes we were the ones with a power outage and the two SPS's allowed us
to "shut down gracefully". Other times we just knew that some residents not
too far away had just lost their power.




Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton,
they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they
also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

Any protector that is damaged by the first surge is grossly
undersized. No effective surge protector can be damaged.
They are not sacrificial devices as urban myth purveyors will
claim.

Why are 'whole house' protectors so effective? One reason:
properly sized. For example, lets say that plug-in protector
can withstand three same size 8/20 usec standard transients.
Then the 'whole house' protector is rated to withstand on the
order of 400 such transients. Properly sized protectors is
but another reason why we install 'whole house' protectors and
don't waste money on plug-in protectors. That 'whole house'
protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why would
anyone pay $20 or $50 for a plug-in protector that was both
grossly undersized AND ineffective?

Appliances already have internal protection. Sometimes
surges are too small to even damage the appliance - but
destroy the grossly undersized (and adjacent) surge
protector. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective,
overprices, undersized - and too often recommended by one who
says, "My surge protector sacrificed itself to protect my
computer". This is where ineffective plug-in protectors get
recommended.

Gray Shockley wrote:
Durn betcha!

It did exactly as it should have and blew out the (I'm reasonably
sure) capacitors (RadioShack used to carry them, btw)).

That's why they are "cheap" - as I said earlier - they self-destruct
rather than your computers or radio gear self-destructing.

Stinger mentioned Standby Power Supplies. I have a 500 watt APC
PS that was pretty decently priced and my wife has one of the
itsy-bitsy SPS Power Strips (APC Office 280) and I've seen these
"PowerSupply in a Power Strip" /very/ cheap lately - 40U$-55U$.

My wife and I used to run to the front door when the Back-Up 500
signaled with a short beep; usually we could get to the front
porch to hear the transformer self-destruct.

Sometimes we were the ones with a power outage and the two SPS's
allowed us to "shut down gracefully". Other times we just knew
that some residents not too far away had just lost their power.

In article , w_tom
wrote:

Any protector that is damaged by the first surge is grossly
undersized. No effective surge protector can be damaged. They are
not sacrificial devices as urban myth purveyors will claim.

The characteristics of MOV's are well known. Every time a MOV turns on
due to the device threshold being exceeded they degrade based on how
much power is absorbed.

If you are whom I think you are the facts won't bother you one bit and
further nonsense posts can be expected.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

A wire also absorbs some power when it shorts a large
current. Does that mean the purpose of a wire is to absorb
electricity? Of course not. MOVs are not installed to absorb
power. But then if one first consults manufacturer
datasheets, then that becomes woefully obvious.

http://www.nteinc.com/Web_pgs/MOV.html
Let's use the 2V130 as example. This device will shunt up to
4500 amps during the standard 8/20 usec surge. A 1000 volt
transient at 4500 amps would be well over 600 joules. But
this device is only rated at 39 joules maximum. How can that
be? Because MOVs, like wire, are not installed to absorb the
energy. They are designed to shunt.

If an MOV was absorbing the transient, then MOV voltage must
increase as more energy is absorbed. That means more voltage
confronts the adjacent appliance. But MOVs don't work that
way. If their purpose was to absorb a transient, then they
must connect in series with the appliance. But MOVs connect
in parallel - a shunt mode device. To be effective as shunt
mode devices (like wire), the MOV must conduct massive
transients and absorb less of that transient. That is what
MOVs do. They shunt. They do not stop, block, absorb, or
filter a transient. They operate like a wire during the
transient. They shunt.

As previously demonstrated from manufacturer datasheets (and
not from wild speculation about what 'joules' measures): If
that MOV in a plug-in protector that can only withstand 3
standard 8/20 microsecond transient, then the larger 'whole
house' protector (that costs about same) will withstand about
300+ such surges. Joules is a measure of MOV life
expectancy. MOVs are not designed to absorb a transient -
which is in direct contradiction to what many web sites,
written by English majors, will claim. The better an MOV,
then the more energy it can shunt - per joule. Read
manufacturer datasheets; not web sites written by English
majors. It is the difference between fact and fiction.

Now for your insults - which apparently are due to
insufficient electrical knowledge. First learn before
insulting others. There is a datasheet. Read it before
posting. Keep it civil - if you can. Posted previously are
accurate electrical engineering facts taken from manufacture
datasheets. Any protector that is damaged by the first surge
is grossly undersized - an ineffective protector usually sold
to those who like to throw money at urban myths.

BTW, MOV degradation is not due to power absorption. It is
due to energy absorption - a major technical difference that
English majors will not understand.

Telamon wrote:
In article , w_tom
wrote:

Any protector that is damaged by the first surge is grossly
undersized. No effective surge protector can be damaged. They
are not sacrificial devices as urban myth purveyors will claim.

The characteristics of MOV's are well known. Every time a MOV turns
on due to the device threshold being exceeded they degrade based
on how much power is absorbed.

If you are whom I think you are the facts won't bother you one bit
and further nonsense posts can be expected.

In article , w_tom
wrote:

A wire also absorbs some power when it shorts a large
current. Does that mean the purpose of a wire is to absorb
electricity? Of course not. MOVs are not installed to absorb
power. But then if one first consults manufacturer
datasheets, then that becomes woefully obvious.

http://www.nteinc.com/Web_pgs/MOV.html
Let's use the 2V130 as example. This device will shunt up to
4500 amps during the standard 8/20 usec surge. A 1000 volt
transient at 4500 amps would be well over 600 joules. But
this device is only rated at 39 joules maximum. How can that
be? Because MOVs, like wire, are not installed to absorb the
energy. They are designed to shunt.

If an MOV was absorbing the transient, then MOV voltage must
increase as more energy is absorbed. That means more voltage
confronts the adjacent appliance. But MOVs don't work that
way. If their purpose was to absorb a transient, then they
must connect in series with the appliance. But MOVs connect
in parallel - a shunt mode device. To be effective as shunt
mode devices (like wire), the MOV must conduct massive
transients and absorb less of that transient. That is what
MOVs do. They shunt. They do not stop, block, absorb, or
filter a transient. They operate like a wire during the
transient. They shunt.

As previously demonstrated from manufacturer datasheets (and
not from wild speculation about what 'joules' measures): If
that MOV in a plug-in protector that can only withstand 3
standard 8/20 microsecond transient, then the larger 'whole
house' protector (that costs about same) will withstand about
300+ such surges. Joules is a measure of MOV life
expectancy. MOVs are not designed to absorb a transient -
which is in direct contradiction to what many web sites,
written by English majors, will claim. The better an MOV,
then the more energy it can shunt - per joule. Read
manufacturer datasheets; not web sites written by English
majors. It is the difference between fact and fiction.

Now for your insults - which apparently are due to
insufficient electrical knowledge. First learn before
insulting others. There is a datasheet. Read it before
posting. Keep it civil - if you can. Posted previously are
accurate electrical engineering facts taken from manufacture
datasheets. Any protector that is damaged by the first surge
is grossly undersized - an ineffective protector usually sold
to those who like to throw money at urban myths.

BTW, MOV degradation is not due to power absorption. It is
due to energy absorption - a major technical difference that
English majors will not understand.

Telamon wrote:
In article , w_tom
wrote:

Any protector that is damaged by the first surge is grossly
undersized. No effective surge protector can be damaged. They
are not sacrificial devices as urban myth purveyors will claim.

The characteristics of MOV's are well known. Every time a MOV turns
on due to the device threshold being exceeded they degrade based
on how much power is absorbed.

If you are whom I think you are the facts won't bother you one bit
and further nonsense posts can be expected.

The notorious Tom troll.

Explaine the meaning of the chart "Peak current per pulse versus pulse
duration" at the top of this page.

http://www.worldproducts.com/MOVPeakPulse.htm

I see you are still up to par with your long winded nonsense and you
still have not learned to post to Usenet properly either.

Up next... a kill file update.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article
,
Telamon wrote:

snip

Telamon wrote:
In article , w_tom
wrote:

Any protector that is damaged by the first surge is grossly
undersized. No effective surge protector can be damaged. They
are not sacrificial devices as urban myth purveyors will claim.

The characteristics of MOV's are well known. Every time a MOV turns
on due to the device threshold being exceeded they degrade based
on how much power is absorbed.

If you are whom I think you are the facts won't bother you one bit
and further nonsense posts can be expected.

The notorious Tom troll.

Explaine the meaning of the chart "Peak current per pulse versus pulse
duration" at the top of this page.

http://www.worldproducts.com/MOVPeakPulse.htm

I see you are still up to par with your long winded nonsense and you
still have not learned to post to Usenet properly either.

Up next... a kill file update.

Answering my own post because Tom can't.

I figured you could not answer a simple question.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Posted by worldproducts.com is a chart demonstrating MOV
life expectancy for various pulse widths and peak current - as
was described in the previous post. Chart simply demonstrates
how an MOV degrades; not self destructs. As stated earlier,
an MOV self destructs when operating well outside the ratings
of that chart - when grossly undersized - insufficient joules
to provide effective protection.

Any MOV that 'sacrifices itself' does not even appear on
the chart and does not provide effective protection. Any MOV
that 'sacrifices itself' was grossly undersized - ineffective
protection.

Telamon wrote:
Explaine the meaning of the chart "Peak current per pulse versus pulse
duration" at the top of this page.

http://www.worldproducts.com/MOVPeakPulse.htm

I see you are still up to par with your long winded nonsense and you
still have not learned to post to Usenet properly either.

Up next... a kill file update.